Children & The Rapture
- Thread starter TrustHIM
- Start date
JoyJoyJoy
I Shall Not Be Moved
Eck...my phone is wonky or I may be too ignorant to use it.
I tried to paste some of the past discussions of children in the Rapture for you. You can go to the question mark and type it in...there have been many discussions on it.
For my own reasons and *feelings*, I think kids go in the Rapture along with some mentally affected people. I believe Jesus can communicate with every living soul that He has ever made and can understand them.
I think it was the words of our brother @Tall Timbers that settled the matter in my heart when he once posted...We can trust Jesus to do what is right...(or words to that effect). Amen!!
I tried to paste some of the past discussions of children in the Rapture for you. You can go to the question mark and type it in...there have been many discussions on it.
For my own reasons and *feelings*, I think kids go in the Rapture along with some mentally affected people. I believe Jesus can communicate with every living soul that He has ever made and can understand them.
I think it was the words of our brother @Tall Timbers that settled the matter in my heart when he once posted...We can trust Jesus to do what is right...(or words to that effect). Amen!!
Tall Timbers
Imperfect but forgiven
My opinion is that the Bible leaves that question unanswered, so we'll have to wait and see. I've seen some pretty good arguments on this Board for children being included in the Rapture, but I still think it could go either way. The thing I'm sure of is God will make no mistakes. For that reason I don't worry about it. When I had children I did my utmost to introduce them to their Creator.
The question as to whether or not children will be taken in the Rapture is clearly on the minds of Believers, and I believe the question keeps coming up because the Bible does not tell us the answer to that question. Good arguments can be made on both sides of the question.
As for your own children, I urge you Fathers to live in accordance with the Word, and to the best of your ability use our heavenly Father's example to father your children so that it will be easy for your children to embrace their heavenly Father. I urge mothers to live to the best of their abilities in accordance with the Word. Love and nurture your children. Guide your children in the ways of the Lord that they might find eternal salvation just as you have.
The question as to whether or not children will be taken in the Rapture is clearly on the minds of Believers, and I believe the question keeps coming up because the Bible does not tell us the answer to that question. Good arguments can be made on both sides of the question.
As for your own children, I urge you Fathers to live in accordance with the Word, and to the best of your ability use our heavenly Father's example to father your children so that it will be easy for your children to embrace their heavenly Father. I urge mothers to live to the best of their abilities in accordance with the Word. Love and nurture your children. Guide your children in the ways of the Lord that they might find eternal salvation just as you have.
daygo
Well-Known Member
Romans 7 is a guide.
Palehorse
Member
Although it's not clearly spelled out in Scripture, I believe the issue itself is very straight-forward:
FACTS
1. God created man with the capacity to believe and choose right over wrong. This is what distinguishes us from every other living creature
2. Man physically reaches full mental cognizance when the brain is fully developed (age 20 and upward). God consistently uses the age of 20 in the OT as the dividing mark between accountable and unaccountable (eternally speaking). (Ex. 30:11-16, Num. 32:11) There is no age given in the NT (I believe God defaults to save any who come to Him whatever age they may be)
3. God then sets the conditions for salvation based on our ability to believe in Him. Before Christ came, it was man's faith in the living God. After Christ came, our faith must be directed at God-manifested in the flesh, Jesus the Christ, and His finished work at the Cross.
LOGICAL THOUGHTS
1. God could have created mankind with full mental cognition at a much earlier age (say 13 or so), but He didn't. He doesn't explain why either.
2. Does mental cognition equal maturity? Yes and no. We all mature at different speeds, but maturity does not supersede the age-standard God set forth in Scripture. IOW, you can be immature over the age of 20, but at that point, it's on your head because you have been given the tools and you chose at that point what to do with them. (We do the same with adulthood being at 18, and breaking the law at that point carries far more severe consequences than if you were say, 17).
3. The mentally incapacitated, and children up to the age of 20 (the only consistent age we have to work with) that have not yet reached that full capacity by the Rapture, will be taken up and afforded the same level of mercy as those who died before 20 receive, and have received throughout all of time.
4. After the Dispensation of the Church ends, mankind is thrust back into the conclusion of a post-Christ dispensation of Law (the conclusion of it rather). Those who enter into it must be afforded the opportunity to either receive Christ or reject Him with full mental cognition intact, or else God's manner of justice would not be perfect in sentencing them to eternal condemnation.
CONSISTENT THEOLOGY
1. Now, if we argue that God grants unwarranted mercy to those who, for instance, such as babies and the mentally incapacitated, what then do we make that argument? Well, we could say that according to God's own word, He is longsuffering that none should perish. (Ex. 34:6, Ps. 86:15, 2 Peter 3:9) How then can some argue that God should send babies (who lack the ability to believe) as well as those who are mentally incapacitated (who also lack the ability to believe) to eternal hell-fire for something they had no way of changing?
Does that sound like God? Does that sound like any reference to God in Scripture anywhere?
Let's make the distinction, as this issue will come up, that God allows children and the mentally incapacitated to suffer all manner of evils and death in this life. That is true. That is simply part of living in a fallen world. But the first death is of far less significance than the second death.
When we speak of eternity, well, that is God's realm, and in His realm, He is just and merciful, and all of His attributes are the very epitome of perfection.
For example, would we call a judge here on earth, who takes a child guilty of (pick a crime) and sentences him/her to life in federal prison- just or cruel?
Has it happened? Sure. And we would consider this judge cruel for condemning a child who lacks not only the ability to clearly distinguish, right from wrong but also the ability to understand the consequences of right and wrong.
If we (fallen humans) can consider that judge cruel, and we build up laws to guard against things like that because we recognize the unfairness of it, how much more does God understand perfectly the issues of culpability and innocence?
2. None of us deserve salvation. If God showed us how sinful and wicked we truly are, we would crumble into an unrecoverable tailspin of grief and misery, unable to ever be useful to Him or His purposes. Thankfully, God provides that grace and mercy to us through His Son's perfect sacrifice. If God can afford us wicked people a means to salvation, how much more would HE for those who can't understand eternal ramifications?
3. If we look at the history of this throughout the Church Age, I see some major issues of corruption that spring from the death and innocence of children. We could look at the Roman Catholic's power over family through infant baptism and purgatory. We could look at Calvinism and its corrupted version of predestination. Both of these are perversions of what the Bible says, and they both seek to place religion/religious piety over Jesus' free gift of salvation and God's longsuffering nature.
CONCLUSION
1. God created mankind to be unique in our ability/capacity to both believe and choose Him over death
2. God created mankind to arrive at that mental/cognitive destination (biologically) at the age of 20 and above.
3. Can a child receive Christ, even though that child has zero understanding of eternal consequences? Absolutely. God defaults to save any who calls upon Him and He will refuse none.
4. Can a thief on a cross receive Christ, having done absolutely nothing to warrant it? Absolutely.
5. Will the Rapture be a once in mankind event that violently separates two dispensations, unleashing hell on earth? Yes
6. Would a just-God, allow a child who cannot make that eternal decision, to enter into a time when a mark will be imposed upon all, which then condemns the bearer of said mark to eternity in hell? Don't we make this same argument for why Christians can't be in the 70th Week?
Anyway, my .02c
FACTS
1. God created man with the capacity to believe and choose right over wrong. This is what distinguishes us from every other living creature
2. Man physically reaches full mental cognizance when the brain is fully developed (age 20 and upward). God consistently uses the age of 20 in the OT as the dividing mark between accountable and unaccountable (eternally speaking). (Ex. 30:11-16, Num. 32:11) There is no age given in the NT (I believe God defaults to save any who come to Him whatever age they may be)
3. God then sets the conditions for salvation based on our ability to believe in Him. Before Christ came, it was man's faith in the living God. After Christ came, our faith must be directed at God-manifested in the flesh, Jesus the Christ, and His finished work at the Cross.
LOGICAL THOUGHTS
1. God could have created mankind with full mental cognition at a much earlier age (say 13 or so), but He didn't. He doesn't explain why either.
2. Does mental cognition equal maturity? Yes and no. We all mature at different speeds, but maturity does not supersede the age-standard God set forth in Scripture. IOW, you can be immature over the age of 20, but at that point, it's on your head because you have been given the tools and you chose at that point what to do with them. (We do the same with adulthood being at 18, and breaking the law at that point carries far more severe consequences than if you were say, 17).
3. The mentally incapacitated, and children up to the age of 20 (the only consistent age we have to work with) that have not yet reached that full capacity by the Rapture, will be taken up and afforded the same level of mercy as those who died before 20 receive, and have received throughout all of time.
4. After the Dispensation of the Church ends, mankind is thrust back into the conclusion of a post-Christ dispensation of Law (the conclusion of it rather). Those who enter into it must be afforded the opportunity to either receive Christ or reject Him with full mental cognition intact, or else God's manner of justice would not be perfect in sentencing them to eternal condemnation.
CONSISTENT THEOLOGY
1. Now, if we argue that God grants unwarranted mercy to those who, for instance, such as babies and the mentally incapacitated, what then do we make that argument? Well, we could say that according to God's own word, He is longsuffering that none should perish. (Ex. 34:6, Ps. 86:15, 2 Peter 3:9) How then can some argue that God should send babies (who lack the ability to believe) as well as those who are mentally incapacitated (who also lack the ability to believe) to eternal hell-fire for something they had no way of changing?
Does that sound like God? Does that sound like any reference to God in Scripture anywhere?
Let's make the distinction, as this issue will come up, that God allows children and the mentally incapacitated to suffer all manner of evils and death in this life. That is true. That is simply part of living in a fallen world. But the first death is of far less significance than the second death.
When we speak of eternity, well, that is God's realm, and in His realm, He is just and merciful, and all of His attributes are the very epitome of perfection.
For example, would we call a judge here on earth, who takes a child guilty of (pick a crime) and sentences him/her to life in federal prison- just or cruel?
Has it happened? Sure. And we would consider this judge cruel for condemning a child who lacks not only the ability to clearly distinguish, right from wrong but also the ability to understand the consequences of right and wrong.
If we (fallen humans) can consider that judge cruel, and we build up laws to guard against things like that because we recognize the unfairness of it, how much more does God understand perfectly the issues of culpability and innocence?
2. None of us deserve salvation. If God showed us how sinful and wicked we truly are, we would crumble into an unrecoverable tailspin of grief and misery, unable to ever be useful to Him or His purposes. Thankfully, God provides that grace and mercy to us through His Son's perfect sacrifice. If God can afford us wicked people a means to salvation, how much more would HE for those who can't understand eternal ramifications?
3. If we look at the history of this throughout the Church Age, I see some major issues of corruption that spring from the death and innocence of children. We could look at the Roman Catholic's power over family through infant baptism and purgatory. We could look at Calvinism and its corrupted version of predestination. Both of these are perversions of what the Bible says, and they both seek to place religion/religious piety over Jesus' free gift of salvation and God's longsuffering nature.
CONCLUSION
1. God created mankind to be unique in our ability/capacity to both believe and choose Him over death
2. God created mankind to arrive at that mental/cognitive destination (biologically) at the age of 20 and above.
3. Can a child receive Christ, even though that child has zero understanding of eternal consequences? Absolutely. God defaults to save any who calls upon Him and He will refuse none.
4. Can a thief on a cross receive Christ, having done absolutely nothing to warrant it? Absolutely.
5. Will the Rapture be a once in mankind event that violently separates two dispensations, unleashing hell on earth? Yes
6. Would a just-God, allow a child who cannot make that eternal decision, to enter into a time when a mark will be imposed upon all, which then condemns the bearer of said mark to eternity in hell? Don't we make this same argument for why Christians can't be in the 70th Week?
Anyway, my .02c
Concur with all those under the age of accountability being raptured. I do believe scripture is clear on this issue, especailly with all we have been given in His written Word to know about our Father.
Im not convinced the age is 20.
Palehorse
Member
Not to sound contrary (not my intent) but it's your opinion, versus the only age we have to work within Scripture. I know a lot of people want to link the age of 13 (Bar Mitzvah age) as being the age of accountability, but that age (13) is nowhere in Scripture.
daygo
Well-Known Member
I cant believe its 20 yrs, doesnt make sense to me but am always willing to learn and accept things if am wrong.
What, someone other than me being contrary??.
You did give something to study later today, so I have not closed the door on your views.
I was going to wait to study this later, but I could not wait. I did a quick read of the verses you listed, and also checked a few of the trusted sites I use for references.
At times I can be set in my beliefs, and change is not always easy, but other times the “Light” shines brightly.
I think you just might be correct. The two verses you listed do seem to indicate our future is determined at that age.
As many times as I have participated in discussions on the age of accountability, I have not seen those verses mentioned - or at least I dont remember if they were.
My position has changed, thanks!
daygo
Well-Known Member
I've not closed the door yet, need more time but as yet still doesn't make sense and still think it's wrong. Will try and let you know.
Palehorse
Member
Again, not to be contrary, but what's doesn't make sense?
Honestly, if God had created man to be fully mentally cognizant by the age of say, 6, or 10, then that would be the age.
But the one tool He gave us to believe with, doesn't fully develop until our 20s. That's not my opinion, that is a biological standard long established.
But even going further, if it were just a biological argument, and scripture said something else, I would side with Scripture.
As it stands, human biology coincides with what Scripture has been saying now for nearly 4,000 years. It just makes sense.
DanLMP
Well-Known Member
Off topic comment: I vaguely recall something I read that suggests that the Rapture will be a thermodynamic event as well as a physical and spiritual event.
The suggestion was that the Rapture will include a release of physical energy that will be noticed by the remaining world.
Considering that God has used many natural processes in order to work His Will, I would be interested in opinions on whether there will be a physical energy release as a result of the Rapture.
Perhaps in a new thread?
crunchymama
Well-Known Member
As someone who has a daughter who was born into eternity (stillborn), this topic was on my mind. I once read a discussion on this topic on this site a while ago (before I joined) and someone's stance was that babies in the womb were sinners and wouldn't be in the rapture. It greatly upset my grieving heart to the point I stopped reading the site for a while. So I would implore people discussing this topic to be mindful about those parents whose young children/babies are no longer living. I'm not saying make things up that aren't in the Bible, but just be careful on how you phrase things.
As for my thoughts, I think back to King David's baby son. I'm also now very confident I will be reunited with my daughter in the future, and happy to know she's reunited with her daddy. I agree wholeheartedly with @Palehorse
As for my thoughts, I think back to King David's baby son. I'm also now very confident I will be reunited with my daughter in the future, and happy to know she's reunited with her daddy. I agree wholeheartedly with @Palehorse
Palehorse
Member
Amen
Tall Timbers
Imperfect but forgiven
You provide a pretty good case Palehorse, except for that which I've quoted. We don't know the mind of God. We aren't capable of grasping the breadth and width and depth of God. Our understanding is limited. Point 6 makes me think of all the times I've heard people say or read statements indicating I can't believe in a God that would allow thus and so (place one of billions of travesties here).
Of all the arguments for all children participating in the Rapture, I believe the member who posted the most convincing in a long ago thread was @mattfivefour. I've also read some excellent thoughts by another poster whose handle I can't remember suggesting that maybe some children will be Raptured, namely those sanctified through a believing parent. I've read a lot of good arguments that came to different conclusions and I firmly believe we simply do not know if children some or all, or others like the mentally ill who haven't become members of the church of Christ yet, will be Raptured when that time comes.
I would like to see every child Raptured, but it isn't hard for me to give that to God and let Him do what is perfect. We do not know perfect perfectly.
Wings Like Eagles
Well-Known Member
I hope it is 20, but, since girls were marriageable at fourteen, in ancient Israel, I'm not so comfortable with the age 20 cutoff. If she could make the decision on marriage (and it was common for a young woman in Israel to have the right to turn thumbs-down on a potential marital partner) why would she not be accountable for moral decisions? If she committed adultery at that age, she would have been stoned. It follows that, if a very young woman could be a first-time mother at fifteen (which was not atypical), would it not also follow that she would be accountable? Just sayin'
daygo
Well-Known Member
Good point.I hope it is 20, but, since girls were marriageable at fourteen, in ancient Israel, I'm not so comfortable with the age 20 cutoff. If she could make the decision on marriage (and it was common for a young woman in Israel to have the right to turn thumbs-down on a potential marital partner) why would she not be accountable for moral decisions? If she committed adultery at that age, she would have been stoned. It follows that, if a very young woman could be a first-time mother at fifteen (which was not atypical), would it not also follow that she would be accountable? Just sayin'
Wings Like Eagles
Well-Known Member
I am happily persuaded as well--with some reservations that I mentioned in my previous post. I never thought of those verses as the potential age of accountability, but you may be right @Palehorse . But, that does not mean that we should assume that they will be raptured and stop our teaching of them and praying for them toward their salvation.
daygo
Well-Known Member
Have just read about the half shekel which is about 12 dollars now, over at temple institute so will study this more. Its intriguing me.