Catholics praying to Mary and the saints yet still claim to be Christians
- Thread starter heisable2
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I have heard it taught that the born agains who stay in the Catholic church are acting as missionaries to their fellow Catholics...if so..one wonders if they are doing any good at all...
I wonder about their effectiveness as well. The RCC excels at eliminating any opposition to their dogma. They used to murder people, but now they just throw them out of the church. They become a pariah to their family. Most of the cults operate this way to exert pressure using the family structure. It's quite effective.
Shonsu
Borg # 8675309
One cannot follow the Roman Catholic Jesus and be saved. That Jesus must be wholly disavowed and the true Jesus of the Bible be claimed for salvation.
"Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing." Galatians 5:2
So anyone who says they are following Jesus but stays within Catholicism are still following the Jesus that Catholicism points to. It is a false Christ and will lead them to hell. They must "come out of her" and reject everything about Roman Catholicism.
"Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing." Galatians 5:2
So anyone who says they are following Jesus but stays within Catholicism are still following the Jesus that Catholicism points to. It is a false Christ and will lead them to hell. They must "come out of her" and reject everything about Roman Catholicism.
The Pope just went to Canada to apologize to the native ppl for crimes against them. Will he admit to n apologize for killing martyrs too? I read it was like 50 million they killed. Sick. Some say the Pope is apologizing so that non Catholic Christians will come back to the "Mother church". Beth Moore did, n other big time preachers are bowing to Rome. Yup, get everyone to get in line for the one world religion...Chrislam? I wonder if they finished building the Chrislam center yet...forget where it is, but the campus includes a church, mosque, and jewish temple.
A
Amen! I view the RCC as a cult
Note that the church representing Christians is a Catholic church
Yup n Peter was married n not infallable! Jesus even told him "get behind me satan" when Peter's words, well-meaning as he might've meant them, were taking Jesus' focus off of His mission.
The Hail Mary... asking a dead person to pray for you is akin to necromancy. In my RCC upbringing, Mary WAS worshipped...kneel before her statue, lay roses at the statue n light candles. Mary prayers and songs sing TO her included calling her a Holy Queen, etc. It is worship. It is idolatry too. Many feast days are to honor her. Just sick. Like kissing a crucifix or the Pope's ring...etc!
He said that a personal relationship with Jesus is dangerous, too. And Catholics dont question him...
Wow, how did God open your eyes when you were in the cult, if you dont mind answering (plz dont if you dont want to)Yeah! That one is a real head scratcher to me, especially since the bible is actually quite clear and plain in many parts, with the more difficult parts becoming clear when other parts of the bible fill in the gaps, so to speak.
I was recently talking with some RCC adherents and what you said SkyRider is exactly what I was told, one had to go to 'experts' to get the proper interpretation. Talk about completely blocking people direct access to God and His clear Word!
As I was engaging it came to me to speak about the Apostle Paul and how he positively commended the Bereans for double checking what Paul was teaching with.........SCRIPTURE! They themselves, sat down, OPENED SCRIPTURES for themselves and read them with their very own own eyeballs.to confirm if Paul was just feeding them a bunch of nonsense or not. Paul, the big honcho of the Church at the time gave them big kudos for doing this. There was no chastising them for reading the scriptures and double checking. He didn't tell them that he needed to interpret the scriptures for them (they had brains in their noggins and the Holy Spirit was probably there helping them to connect the dots). In fact that's how I was saved, double checking people's words with God's Word.
This is the Apostle Paul, mind you, the biggest go to guy who taught further about God and the Church at the time. I shared how Paul said that these people were open minded for doing so. Additionally, the author of Acts seemed to think this was good too as he spoke well of this and the reader the letter was addressed to would certainly be encouraged by this notation of the Bereans searching scripture themselves to also do the same himself.
It's interesting that Paul in his important teachings used copious amounts of scripture, from the bible (not some supposed 'expert') to teach and build up the Church. I would think that's the example to be followed. In fact Paul encouraged others to teach as he did, utilizing....not other men's words but God's words directly, scripture....the bible (that's not to say Godly people's words shouldn't be used, but they should line up with the bible):
Hold on to the pattern of wholesome teaching you learned from me—a pattern shaped by the faith and love that you have in Christ Jesus.
2 Tim 1:12-14
That pattern was to dive into scripture to show how it all pointed to Jesus Christ, his payment for our sins and our eternal life through repentance and faith in Him. Period.
And Peter also support how Paul was teaching as well:
And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him— speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.
2 Peter 3:15-16
At any rate, there was a continual going around and around about interpretations, traditions, Mary, beads and quoting of this or that 'saint' (not to mention that in the bible anyone who's of Christ is called a saint). You are so right SkyRider about the constant pushing to seek man's interpretation.
I realized that I needed to bow out as I'd done all that I could to share scripture showing how they point to Jesus Christ as the preeminent point of scripture, how one can be saved through faith in Him alone and nothing else. Anything beyond was going to get into ceaseless arguing that would go no where. But, I'm praying for these people along with others here that God in His mercy would remove this massive religious burden that's been placed on people unnecessarily and draw them into the freedom of Jesus Christ through faith in Him.
And, I'm so glad to have you brothers and sisters in Christ who've come out of this place. It's hard to do so but I know it's a blessing (I know this as one who came out of a cult myself).
The great news is, that if someone in RCC or other cult seeks God, gets into the Word...God will lead those who seek Him with all their heart to the Truth in Jesus!
I pray that ppl in cults would desire to seek for God despite their busy lives...Father God will meet them at their first step of seeking Him!! I pray that many will seek God n read the Bible and despite all the hardship of turning away from one's religion, will persevere in diligently seeking Faithful and True and be saved, the religion blinders falling off!!
The RCC has 151 anathemas or curses leveled against those who don't fall in line with the papists. Most of those are pointed directly at true Christians, or Protestants as they like to call us - well, heck yeah, we protest against the abuses and false doctrines of Romanism.
One can either be a Christian or a Catholic - you cannot be both. The two are mutually exclusive of each other.
Sorry this is long: From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighboring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha. (Emphasis mine.)
I love this anathema:
Canon IX. If any one shall say, that by faith alone the impious is
justified; so as to mean that nothing else is required to co-operate in
order unto the obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is not
in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the
movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
In a nutshell we are not justified by faith alone according to Catholics.
Scripture says something completely different.
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I guess we are all anathema to the RCC!
Anathema remains a major excommunication which is to be promulgated with great solemnity. A formula for this ceremony was drawn up by Pope Zachary (741-52) in the chapter Debent duodecim sacerdotes, Cause xi, quest. iii. The Roman Pontifical reproduces it in the chapter Ordo excommunicandi et absolvendi, distinguishing three sorts of excommunication: minor excommunication, formerly incurred by a person holding communication with anyone under the ban of excommunication; major excommunication, pronounced by the Pope in reading a sentence; and anathema, or the penalty incurred by crimes of the gravest order, and solemnly promulgated by the Pope. In passing this sentence, the pontiff is vested in amice, stole, and a violet cope, wearing his mitre, and assisted by twelve priests clad in their surplices and holding lighted candles. He takes his seat in front of the altar or in some other suitable place, amid pronounces the formula of anathema which ends with these words: "Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive N-- himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate, so long as he will not burst the fetters of the demon, do penance and satisfy the Church; we deliver him to Satan to mortify his body, that his soul may be saved on the day of judgment." Whereupon all the assistants respond: "Fiat, fiat, fiat." The pontiff and the twelve priests then cast to the ground the lighted candles they have been carrying, and notice is sent in writing to the priests and neighboring bishops of the name of the one who has been excommunicated and the cause of his excommunication, in order that they may have no communication with him. Although he is delivered to Satan and his angels, he can still, and is even bound to repent. The Pontifical gives the form for absolving him and reconciling him with the Church. The promulgation of the anathema with such solemnity is well calculated to strike terror to the criminal and bring him to a state of repentance, especially if the Church adds to it the ceremony of the Maranatha. (Emphasis mine.)
I love this anathema:
Canon IX. If any one shall say, that by faith alone the impious is
justified; so as to mean that nothing else is required to co-operate in
order unto the obtaining the grace of justification, and that it is not
in any respect necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the
movement of his own will; let him be anathema.
In a nutshell we are not justified by faith alone according to Catholics.
Scripture says something completely different.
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
I guess we are all anathema to the RCC!
Wow..how arrogant to believe that someone loses their salvation just because the pope says so...
It is all nonsense, complete garbage. Where in Scripture do we ever hear Jesus or the Apostles talking like this? It is made up bunk. Nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity.
Just like last a couple of nights ago, my wife and I are watching an old movie dealing with a bad archbishop of Roman Catholicism. Everywhere he goes, people address him as “Your Excellency” or “Your Eminence”. Again, where in the Bible do we see Christians addressing other Christians like that?
Is it only Catholicism that comes up with this stuff?
Just like last a couple of nights ago, my wife and I are watching an old movie dealing with a bad archbishop of Roman Catholicism. Everywhere he goes, people address him as “Your Excellency” or “Your Eminence”. Again, where in the Bible do we see Christians addressing other Christians like that?
Is it only Catholicism that comes up with this stuff?
Everlasting Life
Through Faith in Jesus
Hey there Jojo, here's a bit of my testimony. I've gathered pieces that I've written here and there on RF and hopefully streamlined it smoothly for reading. Hopefully that did happen and is encouraging to others.
I grew up in a church (a cult) which was steeped in keeping Jewish holidays, a splash of Jehova's witness, and Seventh Day stuff too. I know....really out there. BUT, we were very well read on the bible (just didn't have the right understanding). Later in life, God was gracious and opened my eyes to the real Gospel: saved by grace through faith in Christ.
It is truly by God's grace and love that I am where I am, that I have the family I have and that I have been protected and somewhat unscathed considering my background! It is so true that if one turns to God, is faithful and leans upon Him and His guidance, He is so faithful to take care of us. God's grace and loving hand in my life is so very abundantly clear to me, more than ever. I just praise him that He protected me and navigated me since I left home into full and freeing truth, and His healing love.
As a child I grew up with a dad who was always troubled. He would yo-yo back and forth between anger/anxiety to being relaxed or emotionally exhausted by what ever was troubling him. He grew up in an immigrant family here in the U.S., and there was much pressure (from what I've gathered) to assimilate and become fully American, culturally. I remember my dad telling me how one of his parents would absolutely lose it if there was any misspelled words in his work, for example. Then, as a young man my dad decided to turn down a very excellent scholarship in order to attend a college called Ambassador College. He had joined a cult called the World Wide Church (WWC) of God started by Herbert Armstrong, thus turning away from his parent's then more protestant church, the Lutheran church.
WWC was a cult that borrowed from Mormonism, Seventh day Adventist, Jewish traditions (keeping the Sabbath, the Day of Atonement [that was pretty unnecessary and redundant, the Atonement was Jesus Christ Himself], Tabernacles, Feast of Trumpets, Days of Unleavened bread, etc.) and some other religions. From what I've learned since then, this was a very controlling church at the highest levels with horrible secrets such as young women being raped, and molested and then they and those who knew about it would be dis-fellowshipped......which if one is heavily invested and steeped into this church this would be a very devastating event as it's believed there that when a person is dis-fellowshipped they are also out of God's favor and kingdom. A tragedy of twisted theology. As I learn more about the RCC I can see some real parallels.
I will clarify that from what I understand there was a break within this church as part of the church began to understand the full grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and that we are made fully acceptable through His righteousness. My dad cognitively understood this, but struggled so very GREATLY to rest in this and apply this in his life at times.
My dad had being groomed for ministerial leadership in this cult, and while at a ministerial program his grooming was suddenly cut short and he was bused out of the area. In talking with someone today who knows a bit more than I ever knew, I've learned that most likely my dad didn't find favor or kiss the right you know what. In this case, most likely these would be people who themselves were abusive and engaged in sever mind control that typically exist within cults (I will also say that not all leadership within this church was abusive, there were some very kind people).
Within this cult, if one was being groomed for ministerial work that was the highest form of acceptance and affirmation for many of these men, apparently. They were treated with great reverence as if they were the prophet Elijah themselves, I kid you not. It also was not acceptable for church members to question, in any way, the doctrine of this church (another possibility of why my dad was suddenly removed). It sounds like for my dad, having this grooming cut short may have proceeded a possible mental break down. My dad's family have told me that when my dad graduated from the college and came back home he had changed greatly and had never been the same since. He was already traumatized by some things at his home and I think this time at the cult college absolutely broke him.
I grew up in this church as a child, and while the particular "church" my family attended was fairly relaxed compared to others (we didn't have ministers coming into the home checking to see if we really were eating wheat bread and not eating pork...another legalistic requirement) there was a lot of spiritual and legalistic abuse/false teachings both from the church and with my dad.
Everyone in WWC was a nervous wreck trying to 'prove' their righteousness by performing 'good works' but all were encased in great fear, anxiousness and constant dread of being expelled if their works were not cutting the mustard so to speak. There was no assurance of God's love, no assurance of secure salvation and nothing but comparison, one upping, finger pointing, and putrid self righteousness that tore other people down. I would easily venture to wonder, but not definitively say, that some if not many were not saved (but pray and hope they are
). And, any works were nothing as they were born out of self righteousness rather than in response to faith in God and His loving prompts in our hearts. In addition, there were actions that one could certainly say were outright evil and deeply egregious.My family finally left this group (and we've learned that others we had been connected to there also left finding Jesus Christ instead, praise God!) and began to read the bible for ourselves anew and with fresh eyes. When my son was born I decided that I needed to know the truth so that I could tell him the truth rather than to feed him confusion and have him tormented as I saw my Dad. But, God was also drawing me to open up the bible to simply read for myself. It seemed there was already a hunger there (in fact, before my husband and I got married we both accepted Jesus as our Savior and were baptized --- the one thing this church did do right
) as I couldn't put the bible down and it seemed to nourish my soul. Additionally I had a commentary on hand and started to read that through a great portion of the bible as well.....praise God it was a good one! So, that's where God seemed to just take over for me and get me on a different path personally and then my husband and consequently our family (although there are some who I'm waiting to see God work more fully in).From there we learned about God's abundant grace and how His salvation is freely given through simple faith in Christ, period. That Jesus as God, did all the hard work for us, and that He is our only mediator. We began to understand the gracious plans and new lives God had for us and it was incredible to begin to even contemplate! Suddenly there was a massively great burden and load lifted from our shoulders in that we did not have to perform or earn God's wonderful love and approval through our performance in the very least, but could simply rest in wonderful peace of the Work of Jesus Christ on the cross for us, where our sins had been paid completely and fully. Praise God!! And, to know that our place in heaven was permanently assured at the time of salvation was such a great relief! For quite awhile, we simply basked just in this, letting this heal our hearts, our lives. We stayed here for a bit letting the joy of the Lord take hold as we began to understand the fullness of what God had done....we were in a kind of holding pattern for a bit. At this time I suppose one wouldn't say that we were full of all sorts of good works but there certainly were the roots of God's love growing underground, so to speak, little by little.
Growing up in a pretty legalistic cult, it wasn't until the Salvation Doctrine was understood and acted on by placing trusting faith in Jesus, that I finally began to start to understand other doctrines. I now understand that if the most important doctrine of all, save by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, is not gotten right in the first place, then this will lend to faultiness in all other doctrines as well. Greatest error begetting further error so to speak. Some doctrines I didn't understand until years later but I was saved. I had to take many years to just let the Salvation Doctrine marinate in my mind, heart and soul and let that Doctrine bring healing in my life. Quite often as I panicked about whether I was saved or not (that was the enemy), God's word was so assuring and I would repeat to myself, sometimes by the minute this passage: God saved you by his grace when you believed. Ephesians 2:8. As far as other Doctrines, I think there was some rudimentary understanding but it's taken time for me to really grow in understanding of other doctrines (by God's grace).
At this time our motivations were so very different!! Motivation was not out of fear, compulsion or trying to show others that we were indeed walking with God, but rather out of a very joyful response and relationship that had developed between us and God, out of love and also knowing that God is the one directing and also watching, trusting that God would deal with any hearts outside of our relationship to show the truth of things.
From there a great joy and adventure of sorts seemed to come into play as we followed God and also saw God working in the midst of those situations we were led to. Most often those works that we were led into became a source of blessing for others and then for us too as we watched what God was doing in the midst. I loved that there was increased understanding of God's Word and then in turn healing of hearts and lives. This really encouraged us to continue in good works and look for more opportunities for them as there is such a joy that comes from them.
I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone but I will say that as I look at my life and how much it has changed, these opportunities to serve the Lord as He prompts me in good works does give me increased assurance of God's work in my life through faith in Jesus Christ. I don't take pride in them but rejoice in what God is doing. I hope this makes sense. And those good works started very, very, very, super very small!!! However, God is the one who fanned them to increase little by little.
Something else also came into play as we moved from the legalistic performance to the grace and love of God through faith in Jesus Christ. As we entered the Christian landscape I saw something I wasn't prepared for nor understood at the time. Those who called themselves Christians and yet acted very fleshly and incredibly destructive to the body of Christ. It was very grievous and harmful to their lives and the lives of others, particularly in impeding growth in Christ. It seemed that the grace of God was pointed to as a license to sin and movement towards biblically unsound teaching. I'm not exaggerating, it was very serious.
When we were ready to go to a Sunday keeping church, I thought, "Whoo Hooo! I'm going to go to one of those churches that meet on Sunday!" not realizing what a landmine the Christian landscape could be. When I get to one church, I was hearing all about major meetings on whether there should be gay clergy allowed
, and perhaps the stories in the bible are just stories, and "Did Christ really mean what He said?" questions, hints of universalism and all sorts of things. I was stunned. :surprisedI just couldn't figure out how a person who claims to be a believer could reconcile what the bible says and what they were advocating as being ok.
:This propelled my husband to join me in looking for another church and we were so blessed to find a grace based, Christ following church that taught straight from the bible, line by line plus application of principle and lesson teachings. And the growth in Christ exploded for us at that point.
As well as the peace and assurance of heart. Additionally I had come across Rapture Ready which had a forum at the time and also learned so much from wonderful brothers and sisters in Christ as they discussed various parts of the bible. I later move here to Rapture Forums and have continued to learn and grow to love the Church found here.
Later in learning a bit more about the RCC, I couldn't help but to be struck by the similarities of the priesthood in the Old Testament which at the time was a go between the people and God. But that's not necessary anymore, Hebrews says Jesus Christ has come and He is now our mediator, our High Priest. I wonder if Jesus' exclamation to the Pharisees and Sadducees may apply to the leaders of the RCC unless they repent:
But those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
“What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you shut the door of the Kingdom of Heaven in people’s faces. You won’t go in yourselves, and you don’t let others enter either.
Matthew 23:12-13
At any rate, I've appreciated the sharing of those who've come out of the RCC, I can relate a bit but it also helps give perspective on how to approach people from the RCC in the future. In the meantime, as I've read through this thread and how some have even put their families aside to follow Jesus, this passage kept popping up in my mind:
And everyone who has given up houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or property, for my sake, will receive a hundred times as much in return and will inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19:29
Everlasting Life
Through Faith in Jesus
So much better to be anathema'd by them then by Jesus Christ.
Under the old system, the high priest brought the blood of animals into the Holy Place as a sacrifice for sin, and the bodies of the animals were burned outside the camp. So also Jesus suffered and died outside the city gates to make his people holy by means of his own blood. So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore. Hebrews 13:11-13
So much better to be with Christ, in His love, grace and mercy abundantly provided to us.
I am fine with being anathema in their eyes. It's just not important. I know Jesus! He's my Savior and King.
The day that all of this drops away and fades from sight is coming. Trumpet and shout, I'll fly away. My Lord in the clouds receiving his bride by the Father's command. Holy, perfect righteousness by his grace, sin nature gone, guilt gone, pain gone. The light of the Lord's presence will be SEEN. We'll enter into a feast with the Lord. We'll be in the presence of God. Holy holy holy is the lamb. Perfection.
Maranatha.
Jeff
The day that all of this drops away and fades from sight is coming. Trumpet and shout, I'll fly away. My Lord in the clouds receiving his bride by the Father's command. Holy, perfect righteousness by his grace, sin nature gone, guilt gone, pain gone. The light of the Lord's presence will be SEEN. We'll enter into a feast with the Lord. We'll be in the presence of God. Holy holy holy is the lamb. Perfection.
Maranatha.
Jeff
Amen! Hallelujah! Come quickly Lord Jesus! Yes, it feels quite good being an anathema to the RCC.
2Cor 4:6 "For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ."
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