Carnal Christians: Is There Such a Thing?

[RestInHim]

I have tried to envision a carnal Christian who comes to the throne of God with his / her relationship in disarray. To be sure, he is saved. But I imagine Christ saying to that person, "We saved you, made you clean, gave you the Divine blessings and the Holy Ghost...you could have been great....you could have done great things for Me....but you did not. You made it by the skin of your teeth. Salvation is a free gift, so here you go... come go further up and further in." How far different from, "Well done, My good and faithful servant! You have been faithful over a little...I will put you over much! Enter into the joy of your LORD!" And if the righteous are hardly saved, what shall be the end of the ungodly?

Our personal relationship with Him is important and even as I draw close to Him, in His word, in prayer, there are things my heart has longed for, the ability to do more for my Savior, but He has chosen a better way (not mine) and it's not that I don't trust Him, it's just my thinking sometimes is that perhaps I could be doing more. Now, I know that it is walking in faith in where He has us, walking ever so closely and trusting Him to work out His purpose and will. Ever wonder why God takes some of His children when it looks like they are and could have done so much (more) for Him, yet, we KNOW His plan was/is perfect!

It is being faithful in what He has given us.

 

[joshuaisme]

"They were "wretched and miserable and poor and naked." No Christian is naked before God. He is clothed in Christ's linen of righteousness. Nor is He wretched."

Curious as to your take on why Paul says in Romans that he is convinced that even a believers nakedness etc. won't keep him from the love of CHRIST JESUS and also calls himself wretched?

Just curious on how you reconcile your words with Pauls as i am way too tired to research this right now haha.
I have faith you can but i don't want this to nag at me..Thank you VERY much

Pastor Adrian,double respect to you.

I got no answer to your innacuracy of speech as quoted above so i looked up the two words involved this morning.

Wretched: A believer AND a non- believer CERTAINLY can be wretched as i know you are not suggesting Paul was unsaved . Yes we have status with GOD as believers but no-one could say our sin-nature is un-wretched both saved and unsaved. One day that nature will be taken away.

Nakedness: Just WOW on this one. The bible is loaded with confirmation that ALL are naked before GOD so much so that i don't even know where to start so i won't. Just do a word study and your view will evaporate without any input from me (Heb) for starts).Believers can be both naked and clothed depending on their perspective/walk and are always covered by faith in JESUS regardless...nakedness refers to everything being laid bare before GODS eyes.




I believe you have the spirit of the passage that is a warning and i also believe our brothers and sisters need to know that ALL have fallen short and that if you find yourself wretched or "naked" (as a believer) just relax and consider what GOD wants or realize the condition is just your sin nature. This is my understanding and i am open to correction if you have some.



My understanding of laodicia is that they were way wealthy from the sale of wool (clothing) and that they were prideful and thought they were all good to go (individual standings with GOD not withstanding). JESUS uses this to meet them where they were at( and a spiritual application for us besides that) and the hot cold has to do with the fact that laodicia was a spa town as well, where a hot spring and a cold spring did flow into the city and met in a lukewarm pool i believe. Again our LORD meets them where they are at and in addition a higher principal is also at work here (ramez).

what do you think of these impressions i have and the importance of accuracy so as to avoid confusion to those who suffer in this race?
I know i was confused at least by your words as i firmly believe the bible can't contradict itself. I am certainly open to correction and do defer to you setting me straight if you can. I suspect we already 90 percent agree and this won't be a fruitless debate .

 

[RestInHim]

Pastor Adrian,double respect to you.

I got no answer to your innacuracy of speech as quoted above so i looked up the two words involved this morning.

Wretched: A believer AND a non- believer CERTAINLY can be wretched as i know you are not suggesting Paul was unsaved . Yes we have status with GOD as believers but no-one could say our sin-nature is un-wretched both saved and unsaved. One day that nature will be taken away.

Nakedness: Just WOW on this one. The bible is loaded with confirmation that ALL are naked before GOD so much so that i don't even know where to start so i won't. Just do a word study and your view will evaporate without any input from me (Heb) for starts).Believers can be both naked and clothed depending on their perspective/walk and are always covered by faith in JESUS regardless...nakedness refers to everything being laid bare before GODS eyes.




I believe you have the spirit of the passage that is a warning and i also believe our brothers and sisters need to know that ALL have fallen short and that if you find yourself wretched or "naked" (as a believer) just relax and consider what GOD wants or realize the condition is just your sin nature. This is my understanding and i am open to correction if you have some.



My understanding of laodicia is that they were way wealthy from the sale of wool (clothing) and that they were prideful and thought they were all good to go (individual standings with GOD not withstanding). JESUS uses this to meet them where they were at( and a spiritual application for us besides that) and the hot cold has to do with the fact that laodicia was a spa town as well, where a hot spring and a cold spring did flow into the city and met in a lukewarm pool i believe. Again our LORD meets them where they are at and in addition a higher principal is also at work here (ramez).

what do you think of these impressions i have and the importance of accuracy so as to avoid confusion to those who suffer in this race?
I know i was confused at least by your words as i firmly believe the bible can't contradict itself. I am certainly open to correction and do defer to you setting me straight if you can. I suspect we already 90 percent agree and this won't be a fruitless debate .

The Church of Laodicea in Revelation 3: 14-22 is a worldly or man centered Church. The meaning of Laodicea is "The people ruling" or "Judgment of the people".

Many scholars (not all) have taught that these people in the Church we're not saved or perhaps some are and some are not! But, I believe that in this culture you wouldn't have people going to Church unless they we're saved. Now, it is always possible as we know that some are not saved, but, in the context of these verses I believe they are true born again Christians and that is who the audience is.

They we're positionally justified, but, they we're spiritually blind, not growing in their sanctification/progressive sanctification, this is where we see the immature Christians, the carnal Christians in light of 1 Corinthians 3: 1-3.

If you go back and read Rev. 2: 9 "I KNOW your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

Back to Rev. 3: 15-16 "I KNOW your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

These verses indicate that some Christians we're seeking after the world and some we're seeking after the things of Christ!
The lukewarm state makes them no use to Christ!

(Gal. 5: 16) "I say then: "Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

(Heb. 12: 1-3)
"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls."

There is a spiritual blindness, they are spiritual bankrupt! They still have their positional justification, but, they are not progressing in their
sanctification/progressive sanctification.

Take a look at: How do we grow as believers... go back to Rev. 2: 9 as well as this next verse? We grow through trials and tribulations and through poverty. We gain an understanding of what it means to be in a spiritual state of bankruptcy and to turn to the only One who can supply us with all that we need spiritually to help us grow. Much like the Apostle Paul with his thorn in the flesh. But, we need to first come to the end of ourselves. This is where we will recognize our dependency on Christ!

Self-sufficiency makes us poor. Reliance and dependancy on God makes us rich. We can do nothing apart from Christ! He is the vine we are the branches, we need to get our strength from Him, abiding in Him as the Holy Spirit works in us.


(1 Peter 1: 6-7)
"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"

Further down in verse 19 it says: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

In context we see here he is speaking to believers because God only chasten's His children, never an unbeliever.

And, verse 20 says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

This here is speaking of fellowship with the Father.... notice it says anyone? We all have a choice as believers to follow Him in faith and grow, but, not all believers will grow in their sanctification.


Are you familiar with Pastor Andy Woods? His teaching on the book of Revelation is very good as are all of his studies. You can find him on Youtube and on Facebook and on the Church website for Sugar Land Bible Church.

 

[joshuaisme]

The Church of Laodicea in Revelation 3: 14-22 is a worldly or man centered Church. The meaning of Laodicea is "The people ruling" or "Judgment of the people".

Many scholars (not all) have taught that these people in the Church we're not saved or perhaps some are and some are not! But, I believe that in this culture you wouldn't have people going to Church unless they we're saved. Now, it is always possible as we know that some are not saved, but, in the context of these verses I believe they are true born again Christians and that is who the audience is.

They we're positionally justified, but, they we're spiritually blind, not growing in their sanctification/progressive sanctification, this is where we see the immature Christians, the carnal Christians in light of 1 Corinthians 3: 1-3.

If you go back and read Rev. 2: 9 "I KNOW your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan."

Back to Rev. 3: 15-16 "I KNOW your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth."

These verses indicate that some Christians we're seeking after the world and some we're seeking after the things of Christ!
The lukewarm state makes them no use to Christ!

(Gal. 5: 16) "I say then: "Walk in the Spirit and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh."

(Heb. 12: 1-3)
"Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls."

There is a spiritual blindness, they are spiritual bankrupt! They still have their positional justification, but, they are not progressing in their
sanctification/progressive sanctification.

Take a look at: How do we grow as believers... go back to Rev. 2: 9 as well as this next verse? We grow through trials and tribulations and through poverty. We gain an understanding of what it means to be in a spiritual state of bankruptcy and to turn to the only One who can supply us with all that we need spiritually to help us grow. Much like the Apostle Paul with his thorn in the flesh. But, we need to first come to the end of ourselves. This is where we will recognize our dependency on Christ!

Self-sufficiency makes us poor. Reliance and dependancy on God makes us rich. We can do nothing apart from Christ! He is the vine we are the branches, we need to get our strength from Him, abiding in Him as the Holy Spirit works in us.


(1 Peter 1: 6-7)
"In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ,"

Further down in verse 19 it says: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent."

In context we see here he is speaking to believers because God only chasten's His children, never an unbeliever.

And, verse 20 says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

This here is speaking of fellowship with the Father.... notice it says anyone? We all have a choice as believers to follow Him in faith and grow, but, not all believers will grow in their sanctification.


Are you familiar with Pastor Andy Woods? His teaching on the book of Revelation is very good as are all of his studies. You can find him on Youtube and on Facebook and on the Church website for Sugar Land Bible Church.

Love love your post!!

This is my view as well..
Now ONLY concerning the laodicia letter and no other letter we first see JESUS (among other stuff) say that he is the "true witness" ( i believe highlighting what the "rich" laodicean church should have been doing, true witnessing).

Then he says he knows their works and :
Laodicia was known as a wealthy and commerce oriented place..they were known for their violet black wool (clothes)and were a center of banking (gold),they also were a spa (ancient soaking baths) or health destination in which they were known for eye-salves and stuff (blind). They had cold and hot water,cold pumped from high in the mountains and hot from a sulpherous spring. The water was lukewarm when directed towards the many “baths” they kept after mixing. ( or an alternative archeology view is they had just the hot springs and by the time it got to the pools it was lukewarm) but either way some water pipes have now been found.

In my belief and understanding JESUS is talking to believers by meeting them where they are at (lukewarm).... thus the statement "behold i knock etc"....

Also i believe the vomiting out the mouth has to do with the true witness line and is simply a rebuke! He says later in the letter that He chastens those whom he loves!

And remember if Paul mentions "wretched" as the sin nature and john says "those who say they have no sin are liars then we can surmise that both believers and non- believers are wretched and naked in GODS eyes(due to sin nature). The difference between believers and non is obvious tho.

I also STRONGLY believe that when we (as believers ) lose sight of the fact that "GOD is NOT WILLING that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" ,the tendency is to find punishment and condemnation for others at every turn when in fact in John it says that "fear is holding on to punishment and that perfect love casts out fear" so i believe in always looking for the most loving interpretation mixed with context.
In other words don't be afraid because GOD knows the heart ( un-believer's and believer's)

 

[Andy C]

Nakedness: Just WOW on this one. The bible is loaded with confirmation that ALL are naked before GOD so much so that i don't even know where to start so i won't. Just do a word study and your view will evaporate without any input from me (Heb) for starts).Believers can be both naked and clothed depending on their perspective/walk and are always covered by faith in JESUS regardless...nakedness refers to everything being laid bare before GODS eyes.

Righteousness: The righteousness of God is basically the Holy (set-apart) perfection of His nature. The term "righteousness" is applied to Christ not only because He is God, but also in view of the righteousness that He gained for mankind.


This righteousness says that as God looks upon the believer, He does not see sin of any kind because we are covered (clothed) in the righteousness of Christ.

Is 61:10, I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Zech. 3:4-5,
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel.
4The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”
5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by.

Rom.4:7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

 

[joshuaisme]

Righteousness: The righteousness of God is basically the Holy (set-apart) perfection of His nature. The term "righteousness" is applied to Christ not only because He is God, but also in view of the righteousness that He gained for mankind.


This righteousness says that as God looks upon the believer, He does not see sin of any kind because we are covered (clothed) in the righteousness of Christ.

Is 61:10, I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of his righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.

Zech. 3:4-5,
3 Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel.
4The angel said to those who were standing before him, “Take off his filthy clothes.” Then he said to Joshua, “See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put fine garments on you.”
5 Then I said, “Put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the LORD stood by.

Rom.4:7 “Blessed are those whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.

Exactly as i stated ALL are naked before GOD but believers are Clothed ,have covering thru JESUS...This doesn't mean we as believers are glorified yet tho or that we can't be thrust into sadness over our condition, acutely aware of our need for JESUS daily. That is to say that the believer is naked and wretched just like any other person because we are human, the difference is that we actually are covered but if by our own perceptions or backsliding we can fall out of fellowship with GOD then he will chasten us by making us aware of our condition. He who says he has no sin is a liar. Unless any of us has reached perfection then we will have bad days where we are made aware of our state.

Like i said it is hard to ignore Paul feeling this way yet he wrote the book on our position in CHRIST.
Notice none of this has to do with salvation ,as a believer is once saved always saved ,but there is a question of our fallen state and personal choices that can and do remove GODS blessings and give the devil a foothold.
I think you may be mistaking the covering of our sins with the awareness of our need for the covering..

Also when you say GOD doesn't see our sins anymore but just the righteousness of JESUS you actually are referring to the eternal penalty of sin not the chastening of his children lest antinomianism reigns and we know from scripture that antinomianism is a huge mistake. The fact is that John tells us he is faithful and just to forgive us all un-righteousness IF IF IF we confess our sins. He has the legal right to forget because of what HE did but we still have an interactive part to play!

I hope this clarifies my understanding brother, i love you-

 

[joshuaisme]

Part of some random article on the different tenses of GODS plan for believers, hope this helps someone to see we have been saved (justification) are being saved (sanctification) will be saved (glorification).

Justification

Justification is a one-time event occurring when we receive salvation and enter into relationship with God.

“Justification occurs when God frees us from the penalty of sin. It is the moment God declares us righteous because of the sinless, perfect life of His Son Jesus. You and I didn’t earn that status, we can’t do anything for ourselves to be declared righteous. As Isaiah says, our righteousness is like filthy rags to God, but because of the righteousness of Jesus, God declares us righteous and justified.”

Through justification the penalty of sin has been eternally eliminated. However, our journey as Christians and our battle against sin is just beginning.

Sanctification

Even though we are justified, we still wrestle with a sinful nature that wages war inside of us.

“God’s sanctification is Christ freeing us from the power of sin in our everyday lives. It’s the process that God is working in our lives to conform us to the image of His Son.”

God’s sanctifying work in our lives begins the moment we are justified and He continues to sanctify us until His work is completed when we enter into glory with Him.

Glorification

“Glorification is when we will one day be free from the presence of sin. It’s the fulfillment of our salvation or the end of our Christian life when we’re going to leave this earth and we’re going to be in a glorified body in the presence of Christ. Our faith will be sight. One day we will see and know all things in Christ.”

God’s work of justification, sanctification, and glorification, work in tandem to bring us from being utterly lost and apart from God to spending eternity with Him in heaven.

 

[Andy C]

No Christian is naked before God. He is clothed in Christ's linen of righteousness

Amen, concur. Thank you Jesus

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Amen, concur. Thank you Jesus

And amen!

Praise The Lamb of God!

 

[Andy C]

Pastor Adrian,double respect to you.

I got no answer to your innacuracy of speech as quoted above so i looked up the two words involved this morning.

Wretched: A believer AND a non- believer CERTAINLY can be wretched as i know you are not suggesting Paul was unsaved . Yes we have status with GOD as believers but no-one could say our sin-nature is un-wretched both saved and unsaved. One day that nature will be taken away.

Nakedness: Just WOW on this one. The bible is loaded with confirmation that ALL are naked before GOD so much so that i don't even know where to start so i won't. Just do a word study and your view will evaporate without any input from me (Heb) for starts).Believers can be both naked and clothed depending on their perspective/walk and are always covered by faith in JESUS regardless...nakedness refers to everything being laid bare before GODS eyes.




I believe you have the spirit of the passage that is a warning and i also believe our brothers and sisters need to know that ALL have fallen short and that if you find yourself wretched or "naked" (as a believer) just relax and consider what GOD wants or realize the condition is just your sin nature. This is my understanding and i am open to correction if you have some.



My understanding of laodicia is that they were way wealthy from the sale of wool (clothing) and that they were prideful and thought they were all good to go (individual standings with GOD not withstanding). JESUS uses this to meet them where they were at( and a spiritual application for us besides that) and the hot cold has to do with the fact that laodicia was a spa town as well, where a hot spring and a cold spring did flow into the city and met in a lukewarm pool i believe. Again our LORD meets them where they are at and in addition a higher principal is also at work here (ramez).

what do you think of these impressions i have and the importance of accuracy so as to avoid confusion to those who suffer in this race?
I know i was confused at least by your words as i firmly believe the bible can't contradict itself. I am certainly open to correction and do defer to you setting me straight if you can. I suspect we already 90 percent agree and this won't be a fruitless debate .

I had to think on this overnight, but I will say its one thing to disagree, but I think the majority of your post is condescending to a long time member of this forum.

 

[Tall Timbers]

I've seen this thread title a dozen times, but just now I mis-read it as "Carnal Christmas: Is There Such a Thing?

I thought, "Oh, yes, definitely." then my eyes focused a little better and I saw my mistake. I probably misread a thread title at least once a day. Sometimes it can end up being pretty funny. I guess it's just an old age thing where the eyes take their sweet time focusing...

 

[mattfivefour]

Part of some random article on the different tenses of GODS plan for believers, hope this helps someone to see we have been saved (justification) are being saved (sanctification) will be saved (glorification).

Justification

Justification is a one-time event occurring when we receive salvation and enter into relationship with God.


Through justification the penalty of sin has been eternally eliminated. However, our journey as Christians and our battle against sin is just beginning.

Sanctification

Even though we are justified, we still wrestle with a sinful nature that wages war inside of us.


God’s sanctifying work in our lives begins the moment we are justified and He continues to sanctify us until His work is completed when we enter into glory with Him.

Glorification


God’s work of justification, sanctification, and glorification, work in tandem to bring us from being utterly lost and apart from God to spending eternity with Him in heaven.

Or simply put:

• we have been saved from the penalty of sin;
• we are being saved from the power of sin;
• we will be saved from the presence of sin.

Salvation is instantaneous; sanctification is progressive; glorification is instantaneous.

Salvation and glorification are doors. They only swing one way: the path through them is irreversible and irrevocable. And they are instantaneous. Their purpose is to first bring us into the spiritual presence of God and then, ultimately, into the physical presence of God. Each takes but a twinkling of an eye.

Sanctification, however, takes our entire life. It's purpose is not to equip us for Heaven: Christ's sacrifice did all that is necessary for that. No-- sanctification is to equip us to be good witnesses of Christ here in this world. As we are made more like Him we gain more power to serve Him here.

We only have to accept salvation; we must cooperate with sanctification; but we only need to enjoy glorification. If you are a Christian, you have done the first, hopefully are doing the second, and are eagerly looking forward to the third.

 

[Andy C]

Or simply put:

• we have been saved from the penalty of sin;
• we are being saved from the power of sin;
• we will be saved from the presence of sin.

Salvation is instantaneous; sanctification is progressive; glorification is instantaneous.

Salvation and glorification are doors. They only swing one way: the path through them is irreversible and irrevocable. And they are instantaneous. Their purpose is to first bring us into the spiritual presence of God and then, ultimately, into the physical presence of God. Each takes but a twinkling of an eye.

Sanctification, however, takes our entire life. It's purpose is not to equip us for Heaven: Christ's sacrifice did all that is necessary for that. No-- sanctification is to equip us to be good witnesses of Christ here in this world. As we are made more like Him we gain more power to serve Him here.

We only have to accept salvation; we must cooperate with sanctification; but we only need to enjoy glorification. If you are a Christian, you have done the first, hopefully are doing the second, and are eagerly looking forward to the third.

Good post.

Did you read all this thread, and in particular, post 42?

 

[mattfivefour]

Good post.

Did you read all this thread, and in particular, post 42?

No, not yet, Andy. I've been too busy to read more than the post to which I just replied. I hope to read it some time after church tomorrow.

 

[joshuaisme]

I had to think on this overnight, but I will say its one thing to disagree, but I think the majority of your post is condescending to a long time member of this forum.

Oh whoops just saw this post..im sorry you feel that way brother. I think sometimes people forget that only GOD knows the heart A ,that the english language is a horribly inaccurate expresser B, and that if we are are not resting in GODS love we may always think the worst of people C. Also the internet erases human interaction and reduces people to ????

That being said i sincerely thank you for your concerns as that is what we are supposed to voice to one another and i will now explain myself for you directly.

My wife pointed out that the use of "WOW" and "evaporate" could be construed as violence to someone who is defensive minded however i can assure you that the mood i was in was excitement with the word and understanding i was seeing.
When i said evaporate that was in a super-hopeful intent like when someone struggles in race (problem) and then crosses the Finnish line in relief (solution)!
The use of the word WOW was my mind being blown not that i was implying that the pastor was an idiot.
You do him well to stick up for him tho.I wrote what i wrote out of love for love. Sometimes in contending and struggling with tuff issues stuff gets competitive and GOD forgive me if there was smidge of that but to my knowledge i was speaking in the Spirit.

For the record.

Guess i better go look at the rest of this thread and see if any one else read me that way, please think better of me as i really do know others are above me and you can imagine condescension is difficult from the bottom (tho I'm sure the flesh will try)

 

[joshuaisme]

Oh yeah she also informed me that caps are yelling?? I am an anti-tech leaner so i don't have great internet skills as in person yelling is yelling and to emphasize a word is just that to emphasize. Don't know if that was it but i have seen plenty of people capitalize for emphasis.

Im telling you the internet isn't healthy for the mind of man these days lol.
Love in Christ-

 

[RestInHim]

The Holy Spirit has been pulling at me the last couple of days with regards to this part of Scripture in Revelation. The passages just didn't seem to come together and I was thinking that there was possibly more than one group of people being addressed here and or possibly more than one direction.

We are all learning and evolving and it is not my opinion that matters, but it is God's and His word that I and we must stand on and continue to search out. I never want my pride to get in the way of learning from his word and others. We are all here to learn and to grow in Him.

This morning I remembered doing a Bible Study many years ago in Revelation. It is called "BEHOLD" with Pastor Randy White (I believe there are 2 Pastor's with this name and it is not the one some may think he is) from Taos, New Mexico. His website is.... randywhiteministries.org and he also has a YouTube site by the same name. He is a good bible teacher.

I went back this morning and listened to....

Behold! Session 09 – Revelation 3:14-22 | (plus Rev 2-3 interpretive issues)

and

Behold! Session 10 – A Jewish Interpretation of the Seven Assemblies

I will be going back to listen from the beginning as well. I would encourage others here to listen to his study on the seven churches of Revelation.

Love in Christ Jesus and God bless

 

[ByGod'sGrace]

You made it by the skin of your teeth.

Once someone accepts Christ, God sees that person as He sees Christ. There is no making it in by the skin of your teeth. You are either seen as pure and stainless or not. It is ALL because of Jesus. Everyone's journey towards sanctification is different, and the Bible includes plenty of people who made huge mistakes but were still secure in their faith and growth (King David made some bad decisions, but he called himself a man after God's own heart, because of his faith in God, how he repented and sought God's forgiveness).

 

[joshuaisme]

Since people seem to be unsure about the believer and the issue of “clothing”, I took the time to review some seminary level commentaries. I stopped after reading five of them on several different websites and a Liberty University hard copy one I have at home.

I stopped because every single one agreed with what I typed above. I think maybe if I’m misunderstood ya’ll would trust the commentaries so feel free to go to Biblehub, Bible Gateway or any of those places and look up the commentary on the letter to Laodicea for yourselves.

This one is from Ellicott’s commentary for English readers showing the Biblical concept of apparel being put on and stripped off both by God or by the believer’s own actions. Pay close attention to the Revelation 16:15 verse. This is our Lord speaking. “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watches, and KEEPS his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.”:

"White raiment.—The putting on of apparel and the stripping of it off were tokens of honour and humiliation. (See 2Samuel 10:1; Isa. 67:2,3; Hosea 2:3; Hosea 2:9; Zechariah 3:3-5; Revelation 16:15; Luke 15:22.) The wedding-feast was at hand. The unclad would then be put to shame (Matthew 22:11-13). Let them be prepared against this by putting on Christ (Colossians 3:10-14) and His righteousness (Philippians 3:9), that the shame of their nakedness do not appear—or, much better, be not made manifest."

The concept is sound, and the commentaries also agree with the rest of my understanding on the letter to Laodicea. Just wanted to show you guys I wasn’t just making this up. But anyway, this whole question is probably off topic anyway. Take care. Love in Christ.

 

[mattfivefour]

"They were "wretched and miserable and poor and naked." No Christian is naked before God. He is clothed in Christ's linen of righteousness. Nor is He wretched."

Curious as to your take on why Paul says in Romans that he is convinced that even a believers nakedness etc. won't keep him from the love of CHRIST JESUS and also calls himself wretched?

Just curious on how you reconcile your words with Pauls as i am way too tired to research this right now haha.
I have faith you can but i don't want this to nag at me..Thank you VERY much

Pastor Adrian,double respect to you.

I got no answer to your innacuracy of speech as quoted above so i looked up the two words involved this morning.

Wretched: A believer AND a non- believer CERTAINLY can be wretched as i know you are not suggesting Paul was unsaved . Yes we have status with GOD as believers but no-one could say our sin-nature is un-wretched both saved and unsaved. One day that nature will be taken away.

Nakedness: Just WOW on this one. The bible is loaded with confirmation that ALL are naked before GOD so much so that i don't even know where to start so i won't. Just do a word study and your view will evaporate without any input from me (Heb) for starts).Believers can be both naked and clothed depending on their perspective/walk and are always covered by faith in JESUS regardless...nakedness refers to everything being laid bare before GODS eyes.




I believe you have the spirit of the passage that is a warning and i also believe our brothers and sisters need to know that ALL have fallen short and that if you find yourself wretched or "naked" (as a believer) just relax and consider what GOD wants or realize the condition is just your sin nature. This is my understanding and i am open to correction if you have some.



My understanding of laodicia is that they were way wealthy from the sale of wool (clothing) and that they were prideful and thought they were all good to go (individual standings with GOD not withstanding). JESUS uses this to meet them where they were at( and a spiritual application for us besides that) and the hot cold has to do with the fact that laodicia was a spa town as well, where a hot spring and a cold spring did flow into the city and met in a lukewarm pool i believe. Again our LORD meets them where they are at and in addition a higher principal is also at work here (ramez).

what do you think of these impressions i have and the importance of accuracy so as to avoid confusion to those who suffer in this race?
I know i was confused at least by your words as i firmly believe the bible can't contradict itself. I am certainly open to correction and do defer to you setting me straight if you can. I suspect we already 90 percent agree and this won't be a fruitless debate .

My friend, I think you are confusing position with condition.

I know you point to the fact that the same word is used for “wretched” in both Romans 7:24 and Revelation 3:17. These are its only two appearances in the Bible. The word is ταλαίπωρος (talaíporos) an adjective that means wretched or miserable, coming from a noun that means misery or distress. But dictionaries are not the correct way to translate and understand God’s Word. Context is the key. So let’s look at the context and each writer’s purpose.

Paul, in Romans 7:24, is speaking of his condition. That is clear from the context. There is no doubt as to his position, for—without having to compose a complete commentary of Romans 5-through 8—it is clear that Paul is saved and therefore speaking in Chapter 7 of his saved experience. I’ll allow Romans 7:5-6 support that (Since we are looking at actual words, throughout this post I am going to use the Berean Literal Bible translation. It is not as readable, but it is extremely accurate):

“For while we were in the flesh, the passions of sins that were through the Law were at work in our members, to the bringing forth of fruit to death. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that which we were bound, in order for us to serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.”​

So he is saved, but struggling with the flesh. Don ‘t let the word sin and sins confuse you when attempting to understand Romans. If you go to the Greek, you will find that in almost every case —once Paul begins teaching the doctrines of the sin and grace, starting with the 5th chapter of Romans— the word translated sin is preceded by the definite article. In other words, the original is not simply “sin” but “the sin.“ This is not speaking, then of specific sins, but of the sin nature that produces sins in their many forms. We can see this clearly in Romans 5:12 which begins, literally, with the words:

“Because of this, just as through one man the sin into the world entered …”​

So, Paul is speaking of the sin nature. And in these chapters it is against this nature that he is struggling. (Another way of referring to the sin nature is “the flesh” or “the old man”.) The climax of this struggle comes at the moment when he cries out “O wretched man that I am!” (It is even stronger in force in the Greek!) And it is at this point that the solution is found: the same Christ who saved Him by delivering him from the penalty of sin has also delivered Him from the power of sin by providing a way of victory: the life of faith. Therefore, as Romans 8:1 begins:

“Therefore there is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. For the Law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the Law of sin and death." For of the Law being powerless in that it was weak through the flesh, God, having sent His Son in likeness of sin of flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteousness of the Law should be fulfilled in us not walking according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."​

My purpose in referencing this here is not to produce a commentary on grace and sin as presented in Romans, but simply to point out that when Paul is speaking of himself as “wretched” he is clearly—from the context in which he speaks—referring to his condition in this life, not his position before God.

But now let’s look at the other occurrence of the word ταλαίπωρος.

In Revelation 3:17, I believe it is clear that Christ is speaking of the position of those in the Laodicean church, not merely their condition. If he were speaking of their condition, their wretchedness would be obvious to them as it was to Paul. But no, they believe themselves to be rich and prospering, having need of nothing. It is a church that believed itself to be spiritually complete when, in fact, God says it is wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked. Since clothing represents the imputed righteousness of Christ, the fact that they are naked speaks volumes. In fact, Christ advises them to “buy pure gold (representing true holiness) … and white garments (representing Christ’s righteousness) from Him. I have no difficulty believing that the Laodiceans represent Christians in name only: they are not truly saved. Otherwise God would not have called on them to obtain true holiness and righteousness from Him. Nor would He state that He was outside the door and knocking. His promise that all who heard Him and opened the door to Him is that they would receive His fellowship. And fellowship with God equates to salvation.

Salvation alone permits koinonía (fellowship, communion) with God. None but a saved child of God can have that communion; yet, the Lord here says to the Laodiceans that he will give it to those who open the door and let Him in. Ipso facto, at the time of the writing of that letter, they were not saved. Their wretchedness was not one of their condition on this earth, as, I have noted, they were quite happy with their lives and their church. No, their wretchedness was in regard to their position before God. (And for those who struggle with that idea, please don’t get sidetracked into a debate over OSAS. I clearly stand on the scriptural truth of OSAS: no-one who has been saved can ever lose their salvation.)

Now I know many commentators and many seminarians believe that the Laodiceans were saved and only experienced the lack of God's favor. I disagree with that for the reasons I have stated. Yet even if you desire to believe they were saved, it makes no difference to my argument in this case as their position before God was a condition of wretchedness— because God said it was!

So the wretchedness of the Laodiceans was in their position before God; the wretchedness of Paul was in his condition in this world.
Why is this differentiation important? Because, if one confuses the two, then the wretchedness of one’s condition can be confused with wretchedness of position. And it is to this latter that I was referring in the post with which you took issue. No Christian is in fact “wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked.” Not at all. We are all recipients of the riches of salvation. Before God we walk in white linen in His sight, regardless of our struggles—and even our defeats—with the flesh. Sanctification is the work of God in progressively bringing our condition into alignment with our position. This has nothing to do with making us fit for Heaven: we were instantaneously made fit by what Christ did on the Cross. But it has everything to do with us being shaped into profitable servants on this earth; it has everything to do with being equipped for service here. So,. In position we can never be wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. And that is true Scripture.

But if we argue that, yes, because Paul said he was wretched, a Christian can be wretched, then we are making this the norm. We are telling the Christian that it is understandable you are feeling wretched because even the great apostle felt that way. My friend, it is fixing a brother or sister’s eyes on their condition and comforting them with that. In so doing, we are removing their eyes from where they should be fixed: on their position in Christ! One’s condition pulls downward; one’s position pulls upward!

We will never walk in victory if misery and wretchedness is accepted as some sort of norm for a believer! Only when our eyes are anchored on the truth of who we are in Christ and the great victory He has won for us, will we begin to not only hunger and thirst for victory but will actually begin to live realizing that victory in all areas of our life is entirely possible … not only possible, but that God will bring them to pass in our lives as we maintain our faith in that fact.

Too many Christians look at the picture of the victorious Christian life painted in the New Testament and think to themselves, “I cannot live up to the standards presented. Look at myself. I am so miserably short of that. I can never win!” They are looking at the NT like one looked at the OT—as standards to achieve and rules to obey. But Paul throughout his epistles teaches us that we are set free from that. Rather, the pictures painted in the New Testament should be viewed as a picture of the One whose portrait they paint: Jesus Christ. And since God desires to conform us to that image of Christ, that representation of His nature, transforming us gradually more and more into His image we need to realize that that is our goal. And thus we need to live in faith that this goal will be produced in us; we do not need to be wretched ... any more than Paul was. And here is how to do that:

We need to honestly tell God every day how we have failed, laying the responsibility for that failure solely on our self. We need to ask God for His forgiveness, knowing that He has promised to forgive us as we confess our known sins (1 John 1:9). But then we need to express our complete faith in His work in us, claiming the victory that exists in seed form in each of us who are Christ’s. We need to believe that no matter how many times we may fail, He is perfect and that He who began the good work in us will perform it until the Day when He takes us home … whether by the undertaker or the Uppertaker. We need to walk in the absolute certainty that there is nothing wretched in us but the condition of our old man. And we need to walk knowing that we have been set free and will see that victory made real in our life. It is the Holy Spirit that produces the change in us and He never fails. We simply need to maintain our faith in what Christ did for us on the Cross. Our new man is designed to be a conqueror through Christ. And when we walk by faith in Christ and truly believe all that He did for us, we are conquerors!

If we ever walk thinking ourselves to be wretched we need to ditch that stinking thinking and realize that there is nothing wretched in who we are. We need to shake off the heavy bands, pick ourselves up, and get back on the Rock of our Salvation and believe all that it promises us is ours.

Too bad the majority of churches today do not preach the life of faith, but the life of performance.

I pray this helps someone.