Salluz
Aspiring Man of God
Where does the blame fall if we as Christians didn't share the gospel with someone? Can it be our fault someone doesn't accept Christ, or does the moral impetus fall solely on that person and his or her decision?
Can it be our fault someone else isn't saved?
- Thread starter Salluz
- Start date
Tall Timbers
Imperfect but forgiven
God has many resources...
lightofmylife
Blessed Hope-Prepare To Fly!
As Christians we are to share the gospel it is the Great Commission to go as Ambassadors of Christ. The ultimate choice is that persons decision. We are watchman on the wall to make the warning clear of eternal life.
ByGod'sGrace
under His wings - Psalm 91:4
This plagues my heart sometimes and makes me cry, wondering if I didn't say the right words at the right time, etc., but God uses everything. We just have to be willing to love and share. Sometimes it is the stuff we don't think made a difference that makes the most difference.
Goodboy
Won't Be Long Now!
As God is just, it would not be just of God to send someone to Hell due to what we did not do. The only effect of us not shearing the Gospel when we had the opportunity, is loss of rewards we should have received.
Eric Nicholas
Well-Known Member
I don't think that we are ultimately responsible. Their salvation would depend on us in some regard and I don't think that I can jump on board with that. I've had these thoughts years ago, though.
Andiamo
"Let's go!"
Touchy subject for me because I am the only Christian in my family right now. And I have talked my HEAD off, to the point where I know I must now keep quiet. Ultimately I know the Holy Spirit is working in each one of their lives, drawing them toward Himself in any way He wills. That's what He did with me. I had to go through a lot of misery to get there, and that is what may need to happen.
Andiamo
"Let's go!"
Someone gave me a cassette tape years ago, of a famous pastor, who equated the result of someone getting saved or not based directly on the amount of time you choose to pray for them. It placed the burden entirely on the saved friend or family member to pray in travail daily until that person was saved. It was one of the most damaging, legalistic and burdensome things I have ever had to get free from. I still struggle with guilt, thinking that I am not praying enough, and I struggle with how to find a balance with not being lazy yet praying yet not putting the burden on myself. "My yoke is easy and my burden is light"...I thank Almighty God that He said that.
athenasius
Well-Known Member
That is a horrific misrepresentation. Oh @Andiamo, that would hurt horribly! And it totally ignores the free will that God gives each person to accept or reject the offer of Salvation. (strong suspicion that pastor is off on a number of other details too)
It suggests that prayer can over ride someone else's free will. And that is NOT how God operates. It's a deep misunderstanding of God's offer of Salvation to people who are free to take it or reject it as they please.
God holds each person accountable for believing in Him or not and God is not willing that any should perish. There are lots of chances that fall into each person's life.
That choice is finalized at death. Either they accepted God's offer thru Christ or they rejected it or put it off by delay after delay.
Along the way there will be lots who sow seeds, and lots who pray (water) those seeds.
But with free will there is always the problem that some will refuse. And that is NOT the fault of the sower, or the waterer or the reaper that God sent into that persons' life on multiple occasions.
The Bible says one sows, another waters and another reaps. The one who sowed the seed, the one who watered it with prayer are equal with the one who reaps. It's not dependant on any one person.
It all comes down to free will choice. Will we choose Christ or will we choose to delay or reject the offer? Free will means that you can pick the bad option. And Christ says many do. More than take Salvation. Even if people are praying, sharing the gospel, speaking ever so persuasively.
Matthew 7:13-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Narrow Way
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
And that has everything to do with their free will.
Not saying it's ok to refuse to do what God is asking us to do, whether it's sowing the gospel into someones heart and mind for the first time for them, or praying for them or helping them come to Christ. We either do that work or enable others by giving funds etc. We need to obey what God has for us to do, but to suggest that people go to hell because one Christian failed one time, is wrong.
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Andiamo
"Let's go!"
Thank you for that....And yes, this is NOT a person I would listen to today....back then I was too young of a Christian to know any better.
It was more about prayer overriding what the devil has planned for their life....much admonition on the power of prayer...to the point of almost circumventing God and going straight after the demons trying to drag your loved one to hell.
Later on I looked straight to the Word for examples of "intercessory prayer" and what it's supposed to be....decided that way too much emphasis has been put on that. And I just don't see in the word what a lot of people are doing. Now, there are times I do feel led to declare something about the sovereignty and power of God, or a verse, and I think the devil doesn't like that, so it does have an affect. But mostly I simply petition God, because scripturally that is the direction prayer should be, toward Him....which gets lost with too much "intercessory prayer."
So in praying for my Mom for example, I struggle with feeling like I am not praying as much as I should, because frankly very often all I can say is, "Lord, please save my Mom." I have run out of words.... there isn't anything new I can ask God to do for her. Same with praying for the world....I just look at the map and say," Lord bring in your harvest." Sometimes I do get wordy, but usually I just don't think it's necessary or right to say 10,000 words for everything (especially if it's vain repetitions as the word says.) But it seems like a lot of people pray and travail for souls much more than I do, so then I feel guilty. Especially when I see others, and their whole family gets saved.
But you are so right about people making their choices. I can literally see it on my Mom's face sometimes. The resistance.
athenasius
Well-Known Member
Oh I so relate and understand. Years of those kind of simple heartfelt "dear God please save Dad". or Father in law, Mother in law, sister and family, cousins, friends. Some have gotten saved, others resist to their death. God has comforted me. It's not up to us to be perfect, He is the one who uses us, and we are willing. It is that free will business. Some will. Some won't.
The offer of salvation is offensive to the world, to the natural man or woman.
It tells them bluntly that they've sinned. That their good works don't mean anything when it comes to standing before a Holy Righteous God. That purgatory isn't an option and no amount of penance will save them. Only accepting that salvation is in Christ alone -- His atonement on the Cross. Sufficient for all time.
It wounds their pride that God would reject their best efforts to please him.
It really bothers them that they must be beholden to anyone for anything because people love their so called self sufficiency, their pride in providing for themselves.
They really hate that a sinner worse than them could get in free of charge all for just believing in Jesus while God ignores their good works, their many charities or their idea of good enough.
Such are all of us before we get saved. We have to get over that hump. That is where prayer comes in. It helps make the gospel make sense-- it stops the enemy "fog machine" and lets them see clearly-- but even then, it's free will only. And God hears those prayers, not because of our many repetitions but because He truly loves that sinner and doesn't want them to perish.
The stone of stumbling and the rock of offence -- our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
1 Peter 2:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
________
And the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing-- it doesn't make sense. It's offensive for that reason.
1 Corinthians 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
____________
To those drawn to Christ we are the aroma of life. But it is GOD who leads us and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of Christ everywhere. God does it. He uses us. To some we smell of life. But to others we are the very stench of death-- and they react accordingly. BECAUSE GOD IS GIVING THEM WARNING AFTER WARNING that the way they are heading is wrong. That stench of death that they pick up on us, is another warning. We are rarely aware of that side even when the non Christians are reacting with hatred and anger just at our very presence.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ’s triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.
15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
16 To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task?
Notice that it is God who is the one acting on us, leading us, using us. And we are willing but Paul asks the rhetorical question-- who is equal to such a task. It's only as God does it thru us that it is effective. We have no ability or strength in ourselves to help them, it is all God's doing, thru us OR OTHERS that God will use as willing instruments.
To God be the glory, now and forever. If it were up to us, we would take some of that glory. It isn't up to us. It is up to God. Our part is to be willing instruments in His Hands for His purposes to His glory.
Hugs
Love
M
The offer of salvation is offensive to the world, to the natural man or woman.
It tells them bluntly that they've sinned. That their good works don't mean anything when it comes to standing before a Holy Righteous God. That purgatory isn't an option and no amount of penance will save them. Only accepting that salvation is in Christ alone -- His atonement on the Cross. Sufficient for all time.
It wounds their pride that God would reject their best efforts to please him.
It really bothers them that they must be beholden to anyone for anything because people love their so called self sufficiency, their pride in providing for themselves.
They really hate that a sinner worse than them could get in free of charge all for just believing in Jesus while God ignores their good works, their many charities or their idea of good enough.
Such are all of us before we get saved. We have to get over that hump. That is where prayer comes in. It helps make the gospel make sense-- it stops the enemy "fog machine" and lets them see clearly-- but even then, it's free will only. And God hears those prayers, not because of our many repetitions but because He truly loves that sinner and doesn't want them to perish.
The stone of stumbling and the rock of offence -- our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
1 Peter 2:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
________
And the gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing-- it doesn't make sense. It's offensive for that reason.
1 Corinthians 1:18 New International Version (NIV)
Christ Crucified Is God’s Power and Wisdom
18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
____________
To those drawn to Christ we are the aroma of life. But it is GOD who leads us and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of Christ everywhere. God does it. He uses us. To some we smell of life. But to others we are the very stench of death-- and they react accordingly. BECAUSE GOD IS GIVING THEM WARNING AFTER WARNING that the way they are heading is wrong. That stench of death that they pick up on us, is another warning. We are rarely aware of that side even when the non Christians are reacting with hatred and anger just at our very presence.
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 New International Version (NIV)
14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ’s triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere.
15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing.
16 To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task?
Notice that it is God who is the one acting on us, leading us, using us. And we are willing but Paul asks the rhetorical question-- who is equal to such a task. It's only as God does it thru us that it is effective. We have no ability or strength in ourselves to help them, it is all God's doing, thru us OR OTHERS that God will use as willing instruments.
To God be the glory, now and forever. If it were up to us, we would take some of that glory. It isn't up to us. It is up to God. Our part is to be willing instruments in His Hands for His purposes to His glory.
Hugs
Love
M
Andiamo
"Let's go!"
Wow! I love this! In my KJV is says, "savor"... But to let it sink in that it is "aroma"...
It sounds so....passive. Like, I can just live my Christian walk in front of people, and just BE, and will have an effect on them. Even if I am not aware of it. To them, I am the aroma of a branch with ripe fruit on it....or like an (prayerful!) incense.
Now I am thinking about rivers of living water that flow out of me.....again, passive.
Wow! This is very freeing! Going to meditate on this for sure!
Thank you so much!
Andiamo
"Let's go!"
With my family at least, it also wounds their pride that their idea of God is wrong. So much of the resistance is that unwillingness to let go of what they already believe....what they hold in their hand....to pick up the cross. That's part of why it's so offensive. You have to carry it yourself, personally....not just stare at it.
Lovin Jesus
Well-Known Member
My loved ones I live with are saved but have not had an evident relationship with Jesus for years. The times I’ve tried to alert them of the urgency to draw near to God because we are so close to Jesus return has fallen on deaf ears to where the response has usually been negative except for a couple of times. I had to come to the realization that I’ve done what I can and because they know Jesus and the truth, it’s up to them to reach out to God who’s been extending his hand out to them for years. As for my unsaved family, we’ve had the discussions of Jesus gospel of salvation through him. One is a Jehovah’s Witness and she just won’t accept what she hears. She’s heard the message, and Im sure she’s heard it from my other family members who are believers. We can’t force anyone to accept Jesus if they won’t open their hearts to him. Praying is what we can do that somehow, some way, they will find salvation while the grace period is still here.
cheeky200386
Well-Known Member
I've wondered about this verse that we give off an aroma. Do you think it's an aroma that the demons in the lost person's life picks up? I've just tried to imagine if it's an actual aroma that we can't physically smell or if it's just analogy to mean we are offensive to those that hate God because we remind them of God himself and his statues.
Lovin Jesus
Well-Known Member
An aroma identifies what you smell. It’s the identifying sense that someone who hates God can pick up because we represent God. Same as the light we bear. The light we bear is Jesus. He is light. People in darkness are bothered by our light as if it’s blinding to them. Because it bothers them they respond Negatively toward us. Again, it’s that we represent Jesus. It is actually him they feel negative toward.
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To answer the original question, I say NO, we are not going to be held in any way accountable for another person's choice. We are offered the opportunity to join with God in pointing a lost person to Jesus, but whether we take that opportunity or not only impacts YOU, not the lost person. God is not willing that any should perish and He isn't going to let someone slip off into Hell just because we don't share the gospel - God will present it through other means. We know this because Paul says that even nature around us and the conscious within us will testify of God (and the lost are without excuse when they ignore those things).
I tend to struggle with the opposite feeling more frequently - what's the point of even praying for someone's salvation if God will do everything supernaturally possible to get their attention even if we don't pray? But again, I figure that it's more about me and my obedience and relationship with God than it is about what I'm doing or how it may impact another. I pray in Faith that God hears me, and that action pleases God even if it has zero impact on anything else.
I tend to struggle with the opposite feeling more frequently - what's the point of even praying for someone's salvation if God will do everything supernaturally possible to get their attention even if we don't pray? But again, I figure that it's more about me and my obedience and relationship with God than it is about what I'm doing or how it may impact another. I pray in Faith that God hears me, and that action pleases God even if it has zero impact on anything else.
Eric Nicholas
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I agree, @Batfan7. I think we are commanded, not because needs us, but rather our obedience to what He tells us to do is for our good.
I've heard some say that God needs us in various ways. If He "needs" me in any particular way, I will refuse to worship him. If a maximally great being needs anything from the shallow puddle of vanity that is myself, it is no maximally great being, at all. I would never get on my knees for such a being.
I've heard some say that God needs us in various ways. If He "needs" me in any particular way, I will refuse to worship him. If a maximally great being needs anything from the shallow puddle of vanity that is myself, it is no maximally great being, at all. I would never get on my knees for such a being.
Building on what some others have shared.
1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own [a]reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s [b]field, God’s building.
1 Corinthians 3:6-9
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own [a]reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s [b]field, God’s building.
Andiamo
"Let's go!"
Every time I read this, I wonder.
8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.