Calvinism/Predestinationism

[KR McKay]

Everyone:

I sent this note (below) to the four ordained minsters whose e-mail addresses I have. BUT, it occurred to me that at least some RF members are also quite knowledgeable on this subject.

Thus, I have posted the note below, asking for your views and understandings on the subject:

On one of the History Channels, tonight, they did a show on the "Gates of Hell," concerning beliefs that there are some "gateways" to Hell that can be accessed, here on Earth. Of course, they interviewed a number of scholars, "experts" (generally, secular), etc., on the subject of Hell and these supposed "gateways."

During the show, at one point, they mentioned Calvinism, and noted that Calvinists hold to the doctrine of Predestinationism, which they explained as, "There are some souls which God predestined to be saved...and the rest He will just cast into Hell." At this point, my wife said, "I don't believe that." I agreed with her, but then got to thinking about Calvinism, and some questions came up which I figured might be best answered by folk (like yourselves) who have more than likely studied the subject in detail, in Seminary.

I presume that Calvin got this doctrine from Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Am I correct, or were there other verses that he also drew on for this doctrine?

I disagree with the whole "Predestinationism" deal because it is, to me, completely at odds with the Nature of God (as I understand it). But then, my question is, "How do you explain what was meant in Romans 8:29-30?" My assumption is that some meaning has been lost in the translation process from ancient Greek to English, and that there is more to these verses than at first glance. [Hello, Mattfivefour?!? LOL...] But, the question is, "What is/are the part(s) that I'm missing?" Again, to me (unless I am wrong), the verses seem out of character for God in view of the choices we all have to make concerning the acceptance or rejection of Christ. But, it IS Scripture, so we can't just "toss out" those verses. Thus, again, I feel certain that there MUST be meaning that I am missing.

So, I'm asking you all to "fill me in" on the "meaning" that I am missing!

Thanks, and God Bless!
​

 

[JC1949]

Everyone:

I sent this note (below) to the four ordained minsters whose e-mail addresses I have. BUT, it occurred to me that at least some RF members are also quite knowledgeable on this subject.

Thus, I have posted the note below, asking for your views and understandings on the subject:

On one of the History Channels, tonight, they did a show on the "Gates of Hell," concerning beliefs that there are some "gateways" to Hell that can be accessed, here on Earth. Of course, they interviewed a number of scholars, "experts" (generally, secular), etc., on the subject of Hell and these supposed "gateways."

During the show, at one point, they mentioned Calvinism, and noted that Calvinists hold to the doctrine of Predestinationism, which they explained as, "There are some souls which God predestined to be saved...and the rest He will just cast into Hell." At this point, my wife said, "I don't believe that." I agreed with her, but then got to thinking about Calvinism, and some questions came up which I figured might be best answered by folk (like yourselves) who have more than likely studied the subject in detail, in Seminary.

I presume that Calvin got this doctrine from Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Am I correct, or were there other verses that he also drew on for this doctrine?

I disagree with the whole "Predestinationism" deal because it is, to me, completely at odds with the Nature of God (as I understand it). But then, my question is, "How do you explain what was meant in Romans 8:29-30?" My assumption is that some meaning has been lost in the translation process from ancient Greek to English, and that there is more to these verses than at first glance. [Hello, Mattfivefour?!? LOL...] But, the question is, "What is/are the part(s) that I'm missing?" Again, to me (unless I am wrong), the verses seem out of character for God in view of the choices we all have to make concerning the acceptance or rejection of Christ. But, it IS Scripture, so we can't just "toss out" those verses. Thus, again, I feel certain that there MUST be meaning that I am missing.

So, I'm asking you all to "fill me in" on the "meaning" that I am missing!

Thanks, and God Bless!
​

Who gives a care of what CALVIN say?
I DO NOT.
JESUS,WHO IS GOD said that ANYONE who BELIEVES in HIM gets saved.Correct?
So,what do we want ADD or SUBTRACT to that?
ANYONE who calls on the Name of The Lord gets SAVED BY HIM....
theologians are SPECIALIZED in complicating what The Lord made SIMPLE and ACCESSIBLE TO ALL...which means ALL....
I cannot stand religious nuts...honestly....
JESUS DIED FOR EVERY SINNER ever born and HIS SALVATION is FOR ALL,Jews and Gentiles that BELIEVE in HIM...ALL means ALL....
Now,we CANNOT fault GOD because HE has FORE-KNOWLEDGE,can we????
HE is GOD and of course knows BEFORE time who would BELIEVE and who would NOT BELIEVE.
SO,HE has predestined those HE knew would believe to be conformed to the image of HIS SON,and those HE knew would not believe have been predestined to damnation,BUT ONLY because they chose NOT to believe in JESUS....
For the life of me,I CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY people would reject JESUS,but that is the way it goes,and one day we will know...BUT for the time being,THE LAZY UNLOVING RELIGIOUS people of SECTS would prefer to SIT on their back parts a do nothing,while every genuine BELIEVER knows that THE LORD has COMMANDED TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO ALL so that they might have a chance TO BELIEVE and be saved or not to believe and STAY LOST......
We do NOT NEED to be SUPER THEOLOGIANS of NOTHING...we are CALLED to BELIEVE and LIVE and PREACH THE GOOD NEWS and LEAVE the results to THE LORD WHO IS THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGE...
WHO CARES about all this bunch of DEAD PHARISEES?????
I do NOT and I am NOT impressed by names,Calvin,Luther,Arminian etc...ONLY ONE NAME IMPRESSES ME VERY MUCH,JESUS ,THE CHRIST and I 'd rather OBEY HIM and FORGET all THIS RELIGIOUS NUTTERS...or what JESUS said is NOT ENOUGH????
I say this in love...JESUS HE KNOWS HIS PEOPLE......detestable sinners like me SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH,because somebody took the risk TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO ME .......I shudder in horror thinking I could have said NO to JESUS,so MORE REASON to GIVE HIM ALL THE GLORY,but I am really shocked thinking that IF,John McTernan( who is with The Lord now) would have stayed in his wealthy home in Los Angeles instead of coming as a missionary FOR JESUS in Rome ITALY,well,IF he stayed home,I would probably NEVER HEARD THE GOSPEL and had NO CHANCE to say YES to JESUS,thank BE TO GOD,John did what THE LORD told him to do,so WHO CARES ABOUT THE LAZY CRUEL CALVINIST? THE DEVIL does,because their doctrine is EVIL and I have NO FEAR to say so....
JESUS SHED HIS BLOOD FOR ALL,we HAVE TO TELL people and LEAVE THE RESULTS to GOD.
SHALOM:

 

[Hannah]

Yes this is a controversial subject. Even within the Anglican Church doctrine there is a section titled the Calvinist-Arminian debate.

Who was John Calvin but one of many theologians. Arminius (who came after Calvin) who stood against him was another. Yet many hold Calvin over another well trained theologian.

What has Calvin done but read the Bible and then given us what he has decided was it's interpretation.

So in the end you either accept what Calvin concluded or what Arminius brought against Calvin's teachings.

The debate still rages today. Predestination or Free Will.

You can read all the theological material you like in the end you have to come to a conclusion for yourself.

Has God given manking the ability to choose or reject Him OR do you believe as Calvin did that you were made by God to be Saved and the stubborn non-Christian who continues in rebellion until their death was made by God to go to Eternal Destruction?

If you choose to accept Calivn's view as correct you have to ask the following questions.

So how can God demonstrate His Justice if the Damned can never have any chance to repent and come to salvation?

How can the Bible claim Jesus died for all mankind when only some have been selected for salvation?

How can the Bible claim that God desires none to persih? (2 Peter 3:9)

The Bible is not supposed to contradict itself or be false in any of it's teaching. Yet that is what would be the case under Calvin's interpretation of predestination. Did Calvin consider the 3 questions I posed above?

I personally cannot see God as Unjust or the Gospel only for a group of people predestined by God to be Saved.

I believe that God knows the end from the beginning and so knows who will and will not receive His gospel of salvation in their lifetime and so He is able to before they are born to predestine their future. So I interpret predestination is based on God's forknowledge and that is why God can prepare for His children ahead of time. Also this still allows for free will and choice yet still enables God to be completely in control and able to plan ahead of time for the world.

In the end the decision of Calvin versus Arminius is up to the individual. :

 

[twerpv]

The interesting thing about the Calvin view point is that in the end it doesn't matter because you never had a shot anyway (or were automatically in). So let's assume you believe the Calvin viewpoint, then how you live or the way you choose to live is no reflection on whether or not God lives inside you. This makes no real sense to me.

 

[king'sbloomingrose]

I tend to look at the issue this way. God extends his grace to all, and tells all men about Him at some time in their life. But, not all men will accept God's salvation, and God in His infinite wisdom, knows everything before it ever happened. So, He knew before the beginning of the world who would accept Him and who would reject Him, because He could look ahead in time and see what would be before it ever took place.

We still have free will to reject His call. But, if one would totally throw the predestination issue out the door, I do have one question.

Why does it say,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

And then there is Romans 8:29-30.

And Romans 9, practically the entire chapter.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Just a few thoughts. :

 

[mattfivefour]

I am sorry that I am so tied up at work today that I cannot answer this as I have dealt with this very issue before on this site. However, I highly recommend something from our own Buzzardhut's site which deals with the errors of both Arminianism and Calvinism in balanced measure.

Proportion Theology

However, I have had time to quickly dig up three replies over the past couple of years to people who defended Calvinism. I am pasting them below. i hope they help someone.

---------------

First of all you need to take ALL scripture into account, not just some. I am not going to engage in a point by point argument here. I just want to make the simple point that one needs to include ALL verses that relate directly or indirectly to a subject, not just some that appear to be overwhelmingly on one side or the other. For example, by itself Ephesians 1 could be taken to support the Calvinist view of predestination. But not necessarily. As an illustration of this, the key verse (Ephesians 1:11) often used as a proof for the determinist view does not necessarily say what some think it does. The word translated "chosen" in the AV translation of that verse literally means "obtained an inheritance". It does not refer to God literally "choosing" someone. And the word translated "predestinated" literally means ""to be marked off". This passage just as easily can be interpreted as referring to God's foreknowledge of those who would be saved and his providing an inheritance for the ones so marked off.

Ephesians 2 has absolutely nothing to do with predestination. Verse 10 is referring only to God having planned that those who are saved will also be prepared to walk in good works. The thought here is that good works will flow from our salvation rather than salvation flowing from our good works.

And the Romans 9 passage you suggest can only be used to support predestination if one's interpretation is guided by a predeterminate presupposition.

Anyway, as I said, I am not going to engage in a word by word argument. I am merely reiterating the points I have made in numerous other exchanges with you on this subject, my brother: namely that we need to dig deeper than a mere surface reading of translated words and need to bring ALL scriptures to bear. The problem with Arminianism is that it emphasizes certain "free will" verses, fails to correctly discern God's sovereignty, and ignores a large number of scriptures that the Calvinists quite rightly insist must be considered. The problem with Calvinism is that, conversely, it emphasizes all of the verses related to God's sovereignty, fails to correctly discern the fullness of God's character as manifested in His love, and ignores a large number of verses that Arminians rightly argue must be considered.

I realize I am likely wasting the effort in trying to get you to see the foregoing. But the fact remains that neither Calvin nor Arminius got it right. The fabric of a correct doctrine is woven from ALL of the threads available in scripture, with all neatly tucked in and none left lying on the table. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism does that. Both sides have awkward ends and have pieces left over.

This issue used to trouble me immensely. And for a long time I found myself alternately swayed by one side and then the other. I finally broke away from all of that and decided that the truth was there in scripture and so prayed for revelation from scripture. Over time, with much study and by taking the truth of God's character as He has revealed it in His Word, I finally came to a belief that years later I found is actually delineated in something called Proportion Theology. I do not know who first developed and codified that synthesis of scripture. Nor do I care. All I know is that it matches exactly what the Holy Spirit revealed to me from God's whole Word. And unlike Calvinism and Arminianism it weaves ALL of the scriptural threads into one solid piece of fabric, merges both God's sovereignty and His love, and leaves no awkward pieces sticking out or lying ignored on the table.

----------

... many of us here have been around this same bush with <snip> inveterate Calvinists before. And nothing you point out makes any difference to them. They prefer Calvinist doctrine which I agree is supported by a number of Bible verses ... IF you dispense with the other verses that show it to be erroneous. And you will find they dispense with those inconvenient verses either by refusing to see their relevance or by trying to explain them away. They are so insistent that God can in no way limit Himself—even by perfect acts of His own will!—that they cannot see that they themselves limit Him by their very doctrine. Sadly, they seem so bound by finite thinking that they cannot grasp the truth and the reality of just how sovereign and powerful God is. When you study it you begin to see that they are trying to understand Him in human terms ... using reasoning based on human concepts of what absolute sovereignty entails.

Of course, they are not actually limiting God in reality because no man can limit Him. What they are doing is simply limiting their ability to truly understand His revelation of Himself. The full truth is that God IN His absolute sovereignty can allow man free choice without in any way diminishing that sovereignty. Indeed, the fact that in the exercise of His perfect will He is amply able to allow man any choice he desires is further evidence of the incomprehensible greatness of the Creator. I am totally awed by the very fact that God can allow man to exercise his own free will while at the same time in no way at all diminishing His own power and sovereignty. What an absolutely incredible, powerful, and awesome God is God!!!

----------`

To maintain that faith is infused ... is to agree with the Calvinist that Regeneration or the New Birth is first.

Not true. That statement reveals not a biblical truth but a desire to confront Calvinism. The focus is on the Calvinist view not on the Word of God. No logic takes us from the infusion of faith to its being subsequent to the New Birth. On the contrary, logic dictates that since faith is the agency of that Birth then it must precede it. Other than PRIOR to conversion, exactly WHEN God give it to us is unknown. Most likely when we are created. But that is unknown and, based on God's Word, unknowable this side of eternity in which we shall then know even as we are known.

But all of this is essentially falling into the trap of contention for no good reason. As our sister, LdyinChrist advises, "remember the simplicity that is in Christ." The truth of God's Word does not rest on the interpretation of a verse (even Ephesians 2:8). Having dissected it grammatically, it still does not change the fact that faith comes from God. As other verses agree (I gave you a couple yesterday) it is a gift given to us by Him. You yourself in your answer to our sister say "all things come from God. I don't think anyone who is a 'real born again' believer would say it any other way. He created everything and by Him they not only exist but are sustained." For the thing we call faith to reside in our old nature is to disagree with God who tells us in his Word that NO good thing dwells in our flesh. (Romans 7:18) As James said, EVERY good gift comes from God. (James 1:17).

Therefore, what is the debate over this? If it is only to try to cut the ground out from under Calvinism, then it is using a shotgun where a .22 would do: it is causing a lot of collateral damage in order to accomplish the goal. The simple fact is that there are many verses that destroy the ground upon which TULIP Calvinists stand, just as there are many verses that destroy the ground upon which true Arminians stand. Respectfully (and I say this as someone who always delves deeply into Greek grammar) to find the Truth of God's Word does not require grammatical dissection. And it certainly does not require the removal of the source of our faith.

Let's focus on building one another up. We both agree Calvinism is wrong. We both agree Arminianism is wrong. We both agree that all good things come from God. So the simplicity of Christ tells us that is all we need to know of this matter. Don't be so worried about the error of Calvinism or any other theological error that is concerned with th WAY God operates or the mechanisms of his dealings with us. Ultimately they mean nothing in terms of why we are here and what we are supposed to be doing. All that matters is that anybody who falls on his or her face before God in true repentance, acknowledging themselves to be a sinner and that Christ died to pay the price for that sin so that we can live eternally in the presence of God, is saved. There is one way and if we take it, then that is the whole story. And that is the gospel we are to preach.

----------
Matt

 

[JC1949]

Yes this is a controversial subject. Even within the Anglican Church doctrine there is a section titled the Calvinist-Arminian debate.

Who was John Calvin but one of many theologians. Arminius (who came after Calvin) who stood against him was another. Yet many hold Calvin over another well trained theologian.

What has Calvin done but read the Bible and then given us what he has decided was it's interpretation.

So in the end you either accept what Calvin concluded or what Arminius brought against Calvin's teachings.

The debate still rages today. Predestination or Free Will.

You can read all the theological material you like in the end you have to come to a conclusion for yourself.

Has God given manking the ability to choose or reject Him OR do you believe as Calvin did that you were made by God to be Saved and the stubborn non-Christian who continues in rebellion until their death was made by God to go to Eternal Destruction?

If you choose to accept Calivn's view as correct you have to ask the following questions.

So how can God demonstrate His Justice if the Damned can never have any chance to repent and come to salvation?

How can the Bible claim Jesus died for all mankind when only some have been selected for salvation?

How can the Bible claim that God desires none to persih? (2 Peter 3:9)

The Bible is not supposed to contradict itself or be false in any of it's teaching. Yet that is what would be the case under Calvin's interpretation of predestination. Did Calvin consider the 3 questions I posed above?

I personally cannot see God as Unjust or the Gospel only for a group of people predestined by God to be Saved.

I believe that God knows the end from the beginning and so knows who will and will not receive His gospel of salvation in their lifetime and so He is able to before they are born to predestine their future. So I interpret predestination is based on God's forknowledge and that is why God can prepare for His children ahead of time. Also this still allows for free will and choice yet still enables God to be completely in control and able to plan ahead of time for the world.

In the end the decision of Calvin versus Arminius is up to the individual. :

WELL SAID IT!!!:

 

[JC1949]

I tend to look at the issue this way. God extends his grace to all, and tells all men about Him at some time in their life. But, not all men will accept God's salvation, and God in His infinite wisdom, knows everything before it ever happened. So, He knew before the beginning of the world who would accept Him and who would reject Him, because He could look ahead in time and see what would be before it ever took place.

We still have free will to reject His call. But, if one would totally throw the predestination issue out the door, I do have one question.

Why does it say,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

And then there is Romans 8:29-30.

And Romans 9, practically the entire chapter.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Just a few thoughts. :

Ciao....
I know,I am convinced that Jesus would have died that death on the cross even if only ONE sinner would have accepted....
Because what we fail to understand is THE LOVE of GOD...
we talk about it,we mention it,we quote scriptures about it,But...do we really GRASP the DEPTH of HIS LOVE,which is HIS TRUE NATURE? GOD IS LOVE...and we cannot even fathom the greatness of HIS HEART...why? because we are humans,we are born sinners and we have hard hearts and we have NEVER loved like GOD loves,neither have been loved by anyone on this planet,no not even from our mother or father,as GOD LOVED US BEFORE the very foundation of the world.
It is MIND BLOWING,it is ANOTHER DIMENSION,foreign to us,lost and dark sinners.
And my point is,that if it were for GOD HE WOULD SAVE EVERYONE...in fact HE PROVIDED SALVATION as a GIFT for ALL...but,not all accept HIM....still GOD cannot deny HIMSELF just because we are evil,HE DOES NOT CHANGE...so,BEFORE TIME,in ETERNITY PAST so to say,HE KNEW THOSE who would respond to HIS LOVE CALL,and because of that knowledge,HE PRE-DESTINED the SAVED to BE CONFORMED to HIS SON.....the ones that REJECT HIM,they PRE-DESTINE themselves to be lost....
I have NO IDEA whatsoever WHY sinners reject CHRIST,except that they love darkness more than light,and JESUS OFFERS HIS SALVATION but WILL NOT FORCE IT on ANYONE,we have TO CHOOSE,because LOVE is a FREE CHOICE and unless is a FREE CHOICE would be tyranny,rape,and OUR LORD IS HOLY and PURE and WONDERFUL and LOVING....so bye bye CALVIN and FRIENDS,ARMINIUS and CO....they are just MERE MEN,that want to PLAY GOD...but CANNOT because HE IS MUCH MUCH ABOVE our puny understanding...and what HE has GRACIOUSLY REVEALED in The Scriptures is RESERVED to little children not to the erudite pharisees....who would still crucify JESUS with their heart full of hate and sin.
and the crazy thing is that GOD LOVES even the blind pharisee and HE is ready to pardon and save....but only those that knowing that they are sick CALL for the DOCTOR,DOCTOR JESUS I mean.....:::

 

[Elijah's Mantle]

:
this is one of those subjects I simply dont understand :

The problem with Calvinism is that, conversely, it emphasizes all of the verses related to God's sovereignty, fails to correctly discern the fullness of God's character as manifested in His love, and ignores a large number of verses that Arminians rightly argue must be considered.

I realize I am likely wasting the effort in trying to get you to see the foregoing. But the fact remains that neither Calvin nor Arminius got it right. The fabric of a correct doctrine is woven from ALL of the threads available in scripture, with all neatly tucked in and none left lying on the table. Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism does that. Both sides have awkward ends and have pieces left over.

This issue used to trouble me immensely. And for a long time I found myself alternately swayed by one side and then the other. I finally broke away from all of that and decided that the truth was there in scripture and so prayed for revelation from scripture. Over time, with much study and by taking the truth of God's character as He has revealed it in His Word, I finally came to a belief that years later I found is actually delineated in something called Proportion Theology. I do not know who first developed and codified that synthesis of scripture. Nor do I care. All I know is that it matches exactly what the Holy Spirit revealed to me from God's whole Word. And unlike Calvinism and Arminianism it weaves ALL of the scriptural threads into one solid piece of fabric, merges both God's sovereignty and His love, and leaves no awkward pieces sticking out or lying ignored on the table.

----------

... many of us here have been around this same bush with <snip> inveterate Calvinists before. And nothing you point out makes any difference to them. They prefer Calvinist doctrine which I agree is supported by a number of Bible verses ... IF you dispense with the other verses that show it to be erroneous. And you will find they dispense with those inconvenient verses either by refusing to see their relevance or by trying to explain them away. They are so insistent that God can in no way limit Himself—even by perfect acts of His own will!—that they cannot see that they themselves limit Him by their very doctrine. Sadly, they seem so bound by finite thinking that they cannot grasp the truth and the reality of just how sovereign and powerful God is. When you study it you begin to see that they are trying to understand Him in human terms ... using reasoning based on human concepts of what absolute sovereignty entails.

:
I have a question about it though :

Is these things : what makes up what some term as the ministry of distraction ?

:
what you state makes sense (

to me it was always confusing and distracting to figure :

so I think of it as something I dont understand :

 

[Elijah's Mantle]

I presume that Calvin got this doctrine from Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified." Am I correct, or were there other verses that he also drew on for this doctrine?

:
God knows all things so he would also foreknow every one and also said
WHO SO EVER calls upon Jesus Christ will be saved

:

:

I like what is simply said in the Bible

I am sorry I just dont grasp some doctrines and how they come up with it
In my brain it : does not compute
I dont understand :
:

 

[Elijah's Mantle]

we have TO CHOOSE,because LOVE is a FREE CHOICE and unless is a FREE CHOICE would be tyranny,rape,and OUR LORD IS HOLY and PURE and WONDERFUL and LOVING....so bye bye CALVIN and FRIENDS,ARMINIUS and CO....they are just MERE MEN,that want to PLAY GOD...but CANNOT because HE IS MUCH MUCH ABOVE our puny understanding...and what HE has GRACIOUSLY REVEALED in The Scriptures is RESERVED to little children not to the erudite pharisees....who would still crucify JESUS with their heart full of hate and sin.
and the crazy thing is that GOD LOVES even the blind pharisee and HE is ready to pardon and save....but only those that knowing that they are sick CALL for the DOCTOR,DOCTOR JESUS I mean.....

:

RIGHT ON :

Now that I understand :

 

[Elijah's Mantle]

edit out

 

[Hannah]

I tend to look at the issue this way. God extends his grace to all, and tells all men about Him at some time in their life. But, not all men will accept God's salvation, and God in His infinite wisdom, knows everything before it ever happened. So, He knew before the beginning of the world who would accept Him and who would reject Him, because He could look ahead in time and see what would be before it ever took place.

We still have free will to reject His call. But, if one would totally throw the predestination issue out the door, I do have one question.

Why does it say,

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

And then there is Romans 8:29-30.

And Romans 9, practically the entire chapter.

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Just a few thoughts. :

Agreed with you here

This chapter of Romans has to be understood in context of Old Testament History. You are compeletly missing what is being actually said here by Paul.

First your version is completely misleading.

RO 9:10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

So what was the story behind Esau and Jacob.

Esau had by birth the LEGAL rights of the First Born Son. So Esau is being represented as the Isrealites, the Jews.

So if you know the story Jacob stole Esua's birthright through deception. Actually there was a curse involved in doing this but Jacob's mother took it upon herself.

GE 27:11 Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, "But my brother Esau is a hairy man, and I'm a man with smooth skin. 12 What if my father touches me? I would appear to be tricking him and would bring down a curse on myself rather than a blessing."

GE 27:13 His mother said to him, "My son, let the curse fall on me. Just do what I say; go and get them for me."

The whole chapter is about God being able to give to whom he desires His blessings and favour or as Paul is intimating here salvation. Why because they deserved it more than the Jews?

Remember Esau represents the Jews here in this chapter. So what did Esau do to not get his rightful inheritance? He sold it to Jacob for a pot of stew. Esau was uncaring and reckless with what God had given Him through his being born first. He gave up his birthright and then Jacob was able to take it.

So Paul was saying even though the Jews were Legal Heirs to God's salvation the Gentiles now are receiving what was theirs.

The situation was the Jews were still being Saved while Gentiles are being Saved as well so Paul is not saying ALL Jews have lost their ability to receive salvation. We cannot Inpterpret scripture on it's own.

Now what else does scripture have to say about Jews and Gentiles and the rights to salvation? Remember we have to interpret in the light of other scripture.

RO 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

RO 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,

So the NATION of Israel sought to obtain what the ELECT ended up being given by God. The Elect being the Jews and Gentiles (the church or body of Christ) who received salvation through Jesus.

So the NATION of Israel missed out and the Church of Believers who were elected through Jesus Christ picked up what they lost.

Now does that mean God is finised with Israel because they were not predestined to be the ELECT? Nope we know they get to have their turn later.

{just an aside even though God choose the nation of Israel as His own they were in fact predestined did all Israelites receive salvation? Of course not so we have to be careful as to how we interpret what predestination is all about not just as Calvin would have us think.}

So Romans chapter 9 is not about Predestination as in what Calvin teaches but why God was able to enable the Gentiles to receive what was previously promised to Israel and Israel will still have there promise fulfilled to them in the Tribulation but for a little while THE Church made up of Jews and Gentiles are getting the promises instead. In the book of Romans Paul goes into details as to why Gentiles are now included in the plan of salvation intended for the Nation of Israel if you understand the nature of what Paul is writing about you would have understood what chapter 9 was for and you have to read on to fully grasp it's meaning.

Predestination by Calvin says simply some are destined to receive salvation and some are going to Eternal Damnation according to God's Will. Again this is not the aim of Romans chapter 9.

Why did the Nation of Israel miss out on what the Jewish & Gentile believers are receiving today? Did God make them reject Jesus Christ as their Messiah? We know from the gospels the Pharisees and other religious leaders would not accept what they knew and understood about Jesus and the prophecies of the Messiah. They knew full well they were looking at God's Saviour for Israel but their own wickedness and sinfullness they would not receive Him. They made a Choice. They choose Barabbas and not Jesus so that is what sealed their fate. Free Will. God knew ahead of time that His people would reject Jesus as Messiah. God had made preparations beforehand and even prophecied in the Old Testament the Gentiles would come into His kingdom.

Romans 9 isn't teaching us God decides ahead of time what we will do with His offer of salvation BUT that God is not constrained by laws and regulations and He can even fulfill them but still act to complete what He desires to do.

Yes God will have mercy and compassion on who He desires.

As for Pharaoh do these scriptures mean God intended Pharaoh to be destined to wickedness without any choice of his own? Did God just harden Pharaoh's heart from the outset and not give him a chance. If you read these verses only and not the Old Testament you would be led to think Pharaoh didn't have a chance.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Go back and read the events in Exodus for yourself and you will see God did not harden Pharaoh's heart before Moses spoke to him the first time. No Pharaoh was presented with Moses request on behalf of the God of the Israelites.

EX 5:1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Let my people go, so that they may hold a festival to me in the desert.' "

EX 5:2 Pharaoh said, "Who is the LORD, that I should obey him and let Israel go? I do not know the LORD and I will not let Israel go."

EX 5:3 Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."

EX 5:4 But the king of Egypt said, "Moses and Aaron, why are you taking the people away from their labor? Get back to your work!" 5 Then Pharaoh said, "Look, the people of the land are now numerous, and you are stopping them from working."

This was the first meeting between Moses and Pharaoh and he sealed his own fate here by rejecting God and His authority over him. Pharaoh rejects God's request. Then God sends Moses and Aaron to show His power in the court of Phaorah and it is then that God hardens Pharaoh's heart.

EX 5:22 Moses returned to the LORD and said, "O Lord, why have you brought trouble upon this people? Is this why you sent me? 23 Ever since I went to Pharaoh to speak in your name, he has brought trouble upon this people, and you have not rescued your people at all."

EX 6:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh: Because of my mighty hand he will let them go; because of my mighty hand he will drive them out of his country."

So Pharaoh had his chance and made his choice. It was only after this that God now deals with him in judgement. So Pharaoh was not predestined before hand to have a hardened heart. No Pharaoh had been given his chance.

EX 7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet. 2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. 3 But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. 5 And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."


EX 7:10 So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did just as the LORD commanded. Aaron threw his staff down in front of Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a snake. 11 Pharaoh then summoned wise men and sorcerers, and the Egyptian magicians also did the same things by their secret arts: 12 Each one threw down his staff and it became a snake. But Aaron's staff swallowed up their staffs. 13 Yet Pharaoh's heart became hard and he would not listen to them, just as the LORD had said.

RO 9:16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

What is the "IT" that does not depend on man but God's mercy. Note we are talking about mercy here not predestination. The right to salvation. We cannot force God to give us salvation either. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Jews as the Nation of Israel thought they automatically were going to get salvation because God had promised it to them. However, God was not constrained by laws and regulations to do so. So the nation of Israel for a while is missing out on the promises and only individual Jews and Gentiles instead were receiving the promises instead. God is merciful.

This is complex and I'm not sure if I have explained it clearly enough.

Look at the beginning of Romans chapter 10 this gives some understanding of what Paul was writing about in Romans 9.

RO 10:1 Brothers, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Chapter 9 Paul is saying God is Soveriegn and He does what He thinks is right and mankind cannot impose the Law on God to get what he wants through his own means. This is made clear in the above verses. Where it is clear Israel rejected God but tried to still gain salvation through their own means. What was the act of Jesus Christ's death on the Cross? It brought salvation to those who believed, so you don't have to be an Israelite but someone who is willing to submit to God's righteousness and believe. You can't quote legal contracts to God and expect in your sinful state to get salvation. No you have to submit to God and believe.

RO 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew.

God predestined the people of Israel, he forknew them just as Calvin claims. God choose a Nation for Himself. So is every single Israelite automatically saved because they were predestined or chosen ahead of time by God? Again you have to interpret scripture in light of other scripture. In the Old Testament many time the language of various verses would make you think God was automatically going to Save His people Israel because of his promises BUT we know through other verses it depends on them accepting or rejecting God's Word and His commandments and not rejecting Him.

Now in Romans we read the following:-

RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So when you read these verses do you automatically conclude God is going to SAVE ALL MANKIND? It sounds like that on it's own. However we know from other scripture that it isn't the case.

To conclude Romans chapter 9 is not there to support Calvin's theory on Predestination because it has to be interpeted in light of other scripture.

We can easily find scriptures that on the surface say something else but they are not always what they appear on their own.

 

[arapahoepark]

God could sanctify before hand those he knew that would accept Him through His foreknowledge.



I actually says that in the above scripture. God foreknew and predestined.

So it is easy to plan ahead for God he has the power of knowing the future 100% without doubt of what is going to happen.

Predestination when associated with the name Calvin is saying there is "no free will of the individual".

Free will (as you said) isn't just for accepting God it unfortunately is also for rejecting Him. So in the end those who end up in Everlasting Destruction choose to reject the Lord salvation. Which is what the other guy Arimius was arguing. We get to choose.

Most people agree God predestines or plans future events based on his foreknowledge and that is why He has complete control. Calvin assumed that complete control or sovereignty extended to a person's choice and therefore removing our free will. Most people accept predestination but not in the way Calvin interprets it.

I agree God is able to predestine future events because He is God. Predestination is not the issue only Calvin's interpretation of how that is applied on the individual.

Obviously Calin must of missed what God said to the Israelites when they were entering the Promised Land.



God obviously meant for mankind to have the ability to CHOOSE. Not sure what Calvin would have said about this scripture. It doesn't fit into his idea of predestination.

Thanks for that! It explains a lot!
That is how I would understand it, that it's something we can't comprehend, we have free will but also God knows and chose us for specific things. I do agree with the five points of calvinism minus one, the limited atonement. But for the most part I do believe with what it says. That we are totally depraved, that's correct, you can't lose salvation, irresistible grace, and definitely unconditional election. Again we can argue about what election means.

 

[Hannah]

Thanks for that! It explains a lot!
That is how I would understand it, that it's something we can't comprehend, we have free will but also God knows and chose us for specific things. I do agree with the five points of calvinism minus one, the limited atonement. But for the most part I do believe with what it says. That we are totally depraved, that's correct, you can't lose salvation, irresistible grace, and definitely unconditional election. Again we can argue about what election means.

Yep it is all about simple interpretations and the definitions of words on their own versus interpreting them in the context of other scripture.

 

[king'sbloomingrose]

I agree with you, Hannah! :elmogrin

I just found this last night and thought it would be an interesting food for thought kind of thing, but I'm not trying to stir up trouble or disagree with anyone! This was just an alternative explanation for the doctrine of election than any I'd ever heard before that made some sense.

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

"For" refers back to verse 28 to remind us that he is not talking about anybody being elected to be lost, but he is speaking of "the called", the predestined ones. Predestination never has any reference to the lost. You will never find it used in connection with them. If you ever hear someone talk about being predestined to be lost, you know he is not being scriptural.

Predestination means that, when God saves you, He is going to see you thru. Whom He foreknew, He predestined, He called, and whom He called, He justified, He glorified. In other words, this amazing section is on sanctification - yet Paul doesn't even mention being sanctified. Why? Because sanctification is a work of God in the heart and life of a believer. This is God's eternal purpose. It just simply means this: When the Lord, who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, the good Shepherd of the sheep, the chief shephard of the sheep - starts out with 100 sheep, He's going to come home with 100 sheep. He will not lose one of them. You may remember that our Lord gave a parable about this, recorded in Luke 15. There was a shepherd, a good shepherd, who represents Jesus. One little sheep got lost, got away. You would think He might say, "Well, let him go. We've got 99 of them safe in the fold. That's a good percentage."

Anyone raising sheep knows that if you get to market with a little over 50% of those that are born, you're doing well. But this is an unusual shepherd. He is not satisfied with 99. If He justifies one hundred sheep, He's going to glorify 100 sheep.

My friend, thank God he won't let him go. That shepherd is going after him. The doctrine of election means that the Lord will be coming home with 100 sheep! This is not a frightful doctrine; it's a wonderful doctrine. It means that Vernon McGee's going to be there, and it means you're going to be there, my friend, if you have trusted Christ. This is a most comforting doctrine in these uncertain days in which we live.

31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

What shall we then say to these things? My answer is, "What can I say? This is so wonderful I have nothing to add!" God is on our side. Nobody will be able to bring a charge against us in His presence.

(Jumping down to verses 33-34 in Romans 8)

33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

God's elect are justified sinners. God has placed His throne behind them. Who is going to condemn them? Nobody can condemn them. Why? "It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again."

.....

______________________________

And the exposition of the rest of the chapter continues on, but I just quoted what pertained to the the issue at hand. The Bible study was done by Dr. J. Vernon McGee. I found it rather interesting, and thought I'd share with y'all! : Edited to add, I just fully read what Hannah wrote, and that was wonderfully put!

 

[arapahoepark]

I agree with you, Hannah! :elmogrin

I just found this last night and thought it would be an interesting food for thought kind of thing, but I'm not trying to stir up trouble or disagree with anyone! This was just an alternative explanation for the doctrine of election than any I'd ever heard before that made some sense.



"For" refers back to verse 28 to remind us that he is not talking about anybody being elected to be lost, but he is speaking of "the called", the predestined ones. Predestination never has any reference to the lost. You will never find it used in connection with them. If you ever hear someone talk about being predestined to be lost, you know he is not being scriptural.

Predestination means that, when God saves you, He is going to see you thru. Whom He foreknew, He predestined, He called, and whom He called, He justified, He glorified. In other words, this amazing section is on sanctification - yet Paul doesn't even mention being sanctified. Why? Because sanctification is a work of God in the heart and life of a believer. This is God's eternal purpose. It just simply means this: When the Lord, who is the Great Shepherd of the Sheep, the good Shepherd of the sheep, the chief shephard of the sheep - starts out with 100 sheep, He's going to come home with 100 sheep. He will not lose one of them. You may remember that our Lord gave a parable about this, recorded in Luke 15. There was a shepherd, a good shepherd, who represents Jesus. One little sheep got lost, got away. You would think He might say, "Well, let him go. We've got 99 of them safe in the fold. That's a good percentage."

Anyone raising sheep knows that if you get to market with a little over 50% of those that are born, you're doing well. But this is an unusual shepherd. He is not satisfied with 99. If He justifies one hundred sheep, He's going to glorify 100 sheep.

My friend, thank God he won't let him go. That shepherd is going after him. The doctrine of election means that the Lord will be coming home with 100 sheep! This is not a frightful doctrine; it's a wonderful doctrine. It means that Vernon McGee's going to be there, and it means you're going to be there, my friend, if you have trusted Christ. This is a most comforting doctrine in these uncertain days in which we live.



What shall we then say to these things? My answer is, "What can I say? This is so wonderful I have nothing to add!" God is on our side. Nobody will be able to bring a charge against us in His presence.

(Jumping down to verses 33-34 in Romans 8)



God's elect are justified sinners. God has placed His throne behind them. Who is going to condemn them? Nobody can condemn them. Why? "It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again."

.....

______________________________

And the exposition of the rest of the chapter continues on, but I just quoted what pertained to the the issue at hand. The Bible study was done by Dr. J. Vernon McGee. I found it rather interesting, and thought I'd share with y'all! : Edited to add, I just fully read what Hannah wrote, and that was wonderfully put!

Wow that was powerful! Thanks for sharing that!

 

[Hannah]

Interesting thoughts King's Blooming Rose.

I can't see these verses supporting Once Saved always Saved?

29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

These verses merely promise those that Beleivers are God's & He will conform them to His Son's image, justify them and glorify them. There are no other promises here that I can draw from these 2 verses on their own.


Anyway we are waaaaay off topic now.

Back to Predestination versus Free Will and what that means.

As I said before you have to choose which you will believe Calvin's or Ariminius. Or something in between.

 

[Rescued by the Cross]

There have been a number of good scripture quotes and discussions made on this subject. I would add just one point of focus. God is outside the boundaries of time. He declared the end from the beginning. In addition to being outside of time, God is omniscient.

It is so difficult for us to grasp these elements from a human perspective with our limited knowledge. I have grown to understand it in this way, God / Jesus knew what life and sins I would commit before I was ever born, my choices may have been my own but God knew. Christ died for each and every sin that I will commit in this life. He died for me when I was yet a sinner.

In my sinful state, I was completely unable to look for the salvation I needed. Only by the grace of God was I able to look up and see Jesus and understand the salvation offered to me. Sin blinds and the hand of God is the only source of sight to see the truth. God lets the scales fall from our eyes to see our condition.

God knew my response before I made it. But that is God's place and therefore it is Holy ground that I should not tread. Jesus died for every person and I fully believe that every person will have the invitation to salvation revealed to them by God. I only need to focus in joyous wonder that God offered it to me. In my obedience from love, my role is limited to what God instructed and that is to abide in Christ and fulfill the Great Commission to share the good news with the world and pray for the lost. The Holy Spirit is the source of power in all the works of God's children, I am just thankful that God allows me to be any part to the work He accomplishes so that I can catch glimpses of His glory.

Divisions regarding Calvinism/Predestination to me are efforts to divine the Mind of God beyond what I frankly need to understand. God knows the response from each person that will ever live, I will never have that insight nor do I need it for the work that He has set forth for me.

 

[Chris]

God wishes that none should perish, but all to come to salvation through Jesus Christ. As a result, Calvinism is not a sound teaching. It teaches God saves some and lets other perish. that conflicts with him wanting none to perish. God did not make people to be nothing but kindling for the fires of Hell. God wants all of us to come to salvation, the problem is that some will not accept the free gift of salvation. As a result, they choose eternal damnation.

Calvinism is not allowed here as I mentioned, it is not sound and is in contradiction to the Bible. It is a very controversial topic because those who believe in Calvinism ALWAYS believe they are going to Heaven and others are the ones going to Hell. :

I just try to stay away from the topic altogether. It's poison. (