Building Back Babel

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Andy C

Well-Known Member
Wally said:
Andy C [or anyone] :

Why do you suppose satan has such restraint placed upon him?

Even in our day, some of the criminal acts appear purely inspired by demons, yet there appears to be a limit.

Do you think if such actions by satan were unfettered, believers would draw more upon the Spirit and be empower beyond belief?
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I could never answer what level of restraint has been placed on Satan, as the actions of many murderous world leaders where millions have been killed would seem to exceed what I would think is a level of restraint. I can only imagine how bad it would be if the Restrainer was never in place to begin with…..mankind probably would have destroyed the world by now.
 
Tall Timbers

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Dave_97 said:
My understanding of biblical prophecy is that the 10 nation kingdom forms first, then the Antichrist actually subdues 3 kings from the 10 nation and takes full control. We know the church won’t be here to see the Antichrist, but I’ve always thought it’s a possibility we might see the 10 kingdom nation start forming or even maybe form?.
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Since the OWG in whatever form it begins will be followed with its division into 10 kingdoms before the antichrist works out that covenant with Israel, it is possible that the church will be here for the development of both the OWG and it's 10 kingdoms. To say the church definitively will not see those things is not supported by Scripture, IMO.
 
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Andy C

Well-Known Member
Tall Timbers said:
Since the OWG in whatever form it begins will be followed with its division into 10 kingdoms before the antichrist works out that covenant with Israel, it is possible that the church will be here for the development of both the OWG and it's 10 kingdoms. To say the church definitively will not see those things is not supported by Scripture, IMO.
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Such a buzz kill.

I dont think its definitvie, but most likely, based on what limited scripture there is on this topic.
 
ItIsFinished!

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Dave_97 said:
I know what you mean, I always ask myself the question how close are we going to get to the tribulation before the rapture happens? We know it happens before the tribulation even starts. But how close in proximity will the rapture be to the start of the 7 year tribulation?

I was talking to my dad, who I would consider a strong believer. He use to be a huge fan of bible prophecy back in the days of Hal Lindsey and Tim Laye. However, somewhere along the line most people in his day got tired of waiting for the soon return of the Lord unfortunately including him.

I have been trying to revive that hope in him. I told him, look at all the signs converging do you think it’s a coincidence all these signs are coming together strongly after Israel came back into the land in 1948? The signs have been intensifying so much, from a moral standpoint, economics, political tensions, and geopolitical rumors of war.

I have always been careful with the fig tree generation idea in Mathew 24 as I don’t like to set dates. I don’t actually think we can say it’s 70 or 80 years. People don’t drop dead right after they turn 70 or 80. My understanding of that verse is that the generation that see Israel become a nation will not completely die out until all the verses described in Mathew 24 (regarding the tribulation and second coming) are fulfilled.

In other words, we still have people alive since 1948 today. IMO those people will probably not completely die out until Christ returns. Isn’t it interesting as we reach the late stages of that generation, the more intense our world is getting? The moral decay is accelerating, the rumors of war are increasing, the political division is reaching its zenith, and the false doctrine and lukewarmness in the church is at an all time high.

We don’t have much long. But these next couple of months or years might “feel long”. The fourth quarter or final lap of every game or race is the toughest and feels the longest. It might get crazy, but it won’t get tribulation crazy cause the church will be caught up already.
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You have a good mindset in regards to eschatology . The generation point you made is held by many.
And you are absolutely right my friend when one (or many) nears the end of something major (fill in the blank), that time seems to the toughest and longest period.
That said, after the Rapture takes place , when do you believe the Tribulation starts?
 
Dave_97

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
Tall Timbers said:
Since the OWG in whatever form it begins will be followed with its division into 10 kingdoms before the antichrist works out that covenant with Israel, it is possible that the church will be here for the development of both the OWG and it's 10 kingdoms. To say the church definitively will not see those things is not supported by Scripture, IMO.
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I know you read my entire comment so I don’t think part of this is attributed to me, but I technically didn’t say the church will “definitely” not see the 10 kingdoms. Matter fact as I mentioned earlier I think there is a possibility we might. Because as you mention scripture isn’t clear on that part.

The part scripture is clear on is that the restrainer has to be removed before the Antichrist is revealed. As we know when the Antichrist is revealed there will already be a 10 kingdom nation formed.

Nobody actually knows if the church will see the 10 kingdom nation or not.

The challenge then comes if the church will will see the 10 kingdom nation, logically there has to be a crisis with such magnitude to persuade the entire world to give up their national sovereignty. I would even argue, the United States would have to collapse for this to happen. If all that is going to happen prior to the rapture what crisis do you think this would be?

A nuclear war in a global scale? Maybe but this nuclear war can’t go too far because there still needs to be a technological functioning world left for the book of Revelation to be fulfilled IMO.

Maybe an economic crisis that destroys affects the whole world? - Possibly but for me to see that happening in every single country all at the same time is hard to comprehend. I also don’t see everyone giving up their national sovereignty due to this alone.

It’s why many make the argument for the rapture. Although I can’t point to scripture to support either view, it sort of makes logical sense. The rapture will affect the entire globe, all nations, all at the same exact time. It actually might bring that economic collapse all over the world (at the same time). Basically everything from banks freezing, crimes rising, cyber attacks, food shortages, gas shortages will be affected all at the same time. It’s why IMO I see the rapture happening before the 10 kingdom nations forms (but there is always a chance I’m wrong).

Now. IF we are here when the 10 kingdom nation forms. Look at the bright side, as a church we might actually finally be united (for the most part) in terms of eschatology as a church. It would be very difficult for Spirit filled believers to ignore that the premillennialism view is in fact the correct view when the 10 kingdom nation has formed. Pastors across the world will have to preach about the soon return of Christ, and we might save many people right before we are called up.

Either way it ends, our destination is set stone. We are going up soon.
 
Dave_97

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
ItIsFinished! said:
at said, after the Rapture takes place , when do you believe the Tribulation starts?
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I’m not sure. This is when you get into the whole “gap theory”. I personally believe there is a gap, since the 7 year tribulation begins once the Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel.

During this gap is when some prophecy teachers believe the 10 kingdom nation will form, possibly the Ezekiel 38 war takes place.

I don’t actually know how long the gap will be, but if I had to guess, probably not that long maybe a few months to a year? I don’t know that’s just me giving my own thoughts to be honest.
 
Wally

Wally

Choose Your Words Carefully...
Andy C said:
Actually, if satan was never restrained, Im not sure there would be many believers...at least not alive for very long after becoming believers.
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Based on Job, there are regular restrictions on satan. No mater what, he must have approval.

The unsaved may argue that if God put the clamps down, man would do better.

Yet at this very time man appears to initiate such evil, its like he doesn't even need satan.
But Scripture clearly states satan is very active and will one day lose the fetters to become even more so.

It is still unreal how after 1000 years of Christ's rule, a released devil can gather a massive army to go against Christ.

It is the ultimate conviction of a sinful - un-regenerated heart. We truly need God's Mercy and divine work in us to give us vision to even see our need of a new life.
 
A

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Dave_97 said:
I’m not sure. This is when you get into the whole “gap theory”. I personally believe there is a gap, since the 7 year tribulation begins once the Antichrist signs the treaty with Israel.

During this gap is when some prophecy teachers believe the 10 kingdom nation will form, possibly the Ezekiel 38 war takes place.

I don’t actually know how long the gap will be, but if I had to guess, probably not that long maybe a few months to a year? I don’t know that’s just me giving my own thoughts to be honest.
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Im not sure gap “theory” is the correct terminology. There is nothing in scripture that indicates the tribulation immediately follows the rapture, so that means they are 2 separate events in prophecy, and there could be a long or short length of time in between. IMO, it will be several months at least. After the rapture, IMO that is the time that Ezekiel 38 will take place, after which the Ten Kingdoms will finally be formed and fully functional. Then we know the AC will rise up and eventually affirm the treaty.

It would be great to be here and watch when the Lord defeats the enemy in Ezekiel 38, but its more likely after the church is gone.
 
ItIsFinished!

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Andy C said:
Im not sure gap “theory” is the correct terminology. There is nothing in scripture that indicates the tribulation immediately follows the rapture, so that means they are 2 separate events in prophecy, and there could be a long or short length of time in between. IMO, it will be several months at least. After the rapture, IMO that is the time that Ezekiel 38 will take place, after which the Ten Kingdoms will finally be formed and fully functional. Then we know the AC will rise up and eventually affirm the treaty.

It would be great to be here and watch when the Lord defeats the enemy in Ezekiel 38, but its more likely after the church is gone.
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I agree , I believe that Ezekiel 38 will be after the Rapture.
Out of the 8 billion (roughly) in the world presently, how many do you think will be left behind?
 
Tall Timbers

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Dave_97 said:
I know you read my entire comment so I don’t think part of this is attributed to me, but I technically didn’t say the church will “definitely” not see the 10 kingdoms. Matter fact as I mentioned earlier I think there is a possibility we might. Because as you mention scripture isn’t clear on that part.
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Right, I was agreeing that the church might be here. Scripture is clear on the order of the OWG, the 10 kingdoms, anti-christ becomes head of the OWG.... The Bible just doesn't tell us where in there the Rapture will occur except that it will be before the anti-christ is revealed when Tribulation starts.
 
Tall Timbers

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Dave_97 said:
Now. IF we are here when the 10 kingdom nation forms. Look at the bright side, as a church we might actually finally be united (for the most part) in terms of eschatology as a church. It would be very difficult for Spirit filled believers to ignore that the premillennialism view is in fact the correct view when the 10 kingdom nation has formed. Pastors across the world will have to preach about the soon return of Christ, and we might save many people right before we are called up.
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I don't think the various religions that hang their hat on Christianity would be any more united than they are now. There are so many wrong interpretations of the end times that most won't know the season we're in. Those that know will be a small subset of watchers within the Body of Christ, which is likely a very small percentage of those who identify as Christians.
 
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