Brooding over the waters

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
https://www.oneplace.com/ministries...on-mcgee/listen/revelation-222-21-880081.html

Listening to Dr. McGee's episode on Rev 22:2-21 this morning, he said something strange around the 5:40 mark. Discussing v3, that the Throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the New Jerusalem, he notes the absence of the Holy Spirit being mentioned. He offers the explanation that (and I am hitting pause to transcribe it accurately, quoting) "in the first creation, the Holy Spirit came after the fall, to renovate and renew the blighted earth. 'The Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters', and He is the instrument today of regeneration in the heart and life of sinners. Now there'll be no need of His work in the new creation in this connection, and therefore the silence of God at this point is eloquent."


What is he talking about the Holy Spirit came after the fall? The fall doesn't occur until Genesis 3? I have heard the notion that there was a creation between v1 and v2, but Satan ruined it. That doesn't seem right, can anyone shed light? Did McGee have a Biden moment?
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
OK, it's called the Gap Theory. It came along after Darwinism as a way to try to reconcile an old age earth and fossil record. It's put forth that there was an Eden before Eden, the Mineral Garden, which was ruined when Lucifer fell. So when Dr. McGee said "fall" he meant Lucifer's fall, not Adam's. They fit additional time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

Andy Woods explains in his third installment on Genesis titled "The Most Important Verse. Genesis 1:1-2 starting around 50 minutes in.


The "mineral garden" brings to mind the following from Ezekiel 28, but it seem clear that the garden of God mentioned there was in Heaven, on the holy mountain of God? He fell and *then*was cast to the earth?

A Lament for the King of Tyre
11Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 12“Son of man, take up a lament for the king of Tyre and tell him that this is what the Lord GOD says:

‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13You were in Eden,
the garden of God.
Every kind of precious stone adorned you:a

ruby, topaz, and diamond,
beryl, onyx, and jasper,
sapphire,b turquoise, and emerald.
Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,
prepared on the day of your creation.
14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for I had ordained you.
You were on the holy mountain of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.

15From the day you were created
you were blameless in your ways—
until wickedness was found in you.
16By the vastness of your trade,
you were filled with violence, and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace
from the mountain of God,

and I banished you, O guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;
you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;
so I cast you to the earth;
I made you a spectacle before kings.
18By the multitude of your iniquities
and the dishonesty of your trading
you have profaned your sanctuaries.
So I made fire come from within you,
and it consumed you.
I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the eyes of all who saw you.
19All the nations who know you
are appalled over you.
You have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’ ”
 
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Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
https://www.oneplace.com/ministries...on-mcgee/listen/revelation-222-21-880081.html

Listening to Dr. McGee's episode on Rev 22:2-21 this morning, he said something strange around the 5:40 mark. Discussing v3, that the Throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the New Jerusalem, he notes the absence of the Holy Spirit being mentioned. He offers the explanation that (and I am hitting pause to transcribe it accurately, quoting) "in the first creation, the Holy Spirit came after the fall, to renovate and renew the blighted earth. 'The Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters', and He is the instrument today of regeneration in the heart and life of sinners. Now there'll be no need of His work in the new creation in this connection, and therefore the silence of God at this point is eloquent."


What is he talking about the Holy Spirit came after the fall? The fall doesn't occur until Genesis 3? I have heard the notion that there was a creation between v1 and v2, but Satan ruined it. That doesn't seem right, can anyone shed light? Did McGee have a Biden moment?
It's called the Gap Theory--it has likely been discredited by Intelligent Design advocates. Young Earth Creationists (IECs) have never subscribed to it. Apparently, McGee held to this theory, but it doesn't mean it is true. It is always safest to regard Scripture as being plainly and absolutely true as presented, unless it is quite obvious that the presentation is symbolic and not literal. An old saw called the "Golden Rule of Bible Interpretation": "When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense." --David Cooper (1886-1965)

Edit to add: Sorry to step on your explanation Pixelpusher--I didn't read down through the thread before responding.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
In the Hebrew, the phrase used to describe the early earth is tohu wau bohu which is commonly translated, "formless and void" which is NOT the same as "chaos". Isaiah 45:18 has already told us that God did NOT create chaos. There is another way to look at tohu wau bohu --as the substance used to create the earth (which He also created). You could think of in a small way as someone whipping up a batch of pasta dough and then running it through a pasta mill to form spaghetti out of it. It was originally, "formless and void" but, you made it into a plate of spaghetti. At no time was it "chaotic"--you were in control of every step of the creative process.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
In the Hebrew, the phrase used to describe the early earth is tohu wau bohu which is commonly translated, "formless and void" which is NOT the same as "chaos". Isaiah 45:18 has already told us that God did NOT create chaos. There is another way to look at tohu wau bohu --as the substance used to create the earth (which He also created). You could think of in a small way as someone whipping up a batch of pasta dough and then running it through a pasta mill to form spaghetti out of it. It was originally, "formless and void" but, you made it into a plate of spaghetti. At no time was it "chaotic"--you were in control of every step of the creative process.
AMEN!
 

Eastxn

Member
But everything God creates is complete and finished and perfect. He does not operate like one of us laboring to put things together. Before there was creation there was only God and He certainly isn't formless and void. He simply spoke creation into existence perfectly. How do you explain "formless and void" when taking that into account?
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
But everything God creates is complete and finished and perfect. He does not operate like one of us laboring to put things together. Before there was creation there was only God and He certainly isn't formless and void. He simply spoke creation into existence perfectly. How do you explain "formless and void" when taking that into account?
That is a theological point that the Bible does not support. For example, was the Creation complete instantly, or did it take the progress of "Creation Days"? Was Eve "complete and finished and perfect" at the moment when Adam was created? And why did He use a portion of Adam's body (the "stuff" that He used to create Adam) to create Eve? Jesus told us that the Father is always working. Then and now, He tends to His Creation. Yes--He speaks and His great power converts His Will from the spiritual plain to the physical plain, but insisting that, "...everything God creates is complete and finished and perfect..." without process, seems to go beyond Scripture. Just sayin'.
 

RonJohnSilver

Well-Known Member
I'm intrigued by the theory that the physical earth is millions of years old but mankind is only 6K or so years old.
But, while that may answer some questions in my mind, it raises just as many. In the end, I think this is one of those issues where God didn't give us all of the details because it wasn't important to the story of redemption. Maybe later, He'll explain it, or show us, how and why He did things the way He did.
 

Wings Like Eagles

Well-Known Member
I'm intrigued by the theory that the physical earth is millions of years old but mankind is only 6K or so years old.
But, while that may answer some questions in my mind, it raises just as many. In the end, I think this is one of those issues where God didn't give us all of the details because it wasn't important to the story of redemption. Maybe later, He'll explain it, or show us, how and why He did things the way He did.
Young Earth Creationists have various theories about that--including time dilation effects. Some believe that the speed of light has slowed and is continuing to slow down (and, in fact, some measurements appear to indicate that). If the speed of light has slowed as much as some YEC physicists speculate, the universe would, in fact, be less than 10,000 years old. There are other fascinating scientific discoveries that appear to contradict the "long dates" that geologist, Charles Lyell (a cousin of Darwin) supplied, in advance of Darwin's theories on evolution. Without a long, long timeline, the entire Theory of Evolution cannot possibly be true. Paleontologist, Stephen Jay Gould knew that the ToE was suspect because there was absolutely no evidence of gradual change of one specie to another. He proposed "punctuated equilibrium" which is never taken seriously anymore and almost seemed a joke by Gould.
 

Batman

Well-Known Member
I'm intrigued by the theory that the physical earth is millions of years old but mankind is only 6K or so years old.
But, while that may answer some questions in my mind, it raises just as many. In the end, I think this is one of those issues where God didn't give us all of the details because it wasn't important to the story of redemption. Maybe later, He'll explain it, or show us, how and why He did things the way He did.
I'm a big fan of the textual interpretation of Genesis 7-day creation as literal 7 days......and that God put everything in proper place as he created, in the proper time and aging.......Adam was immediately an adult male.......Eve was immediately an adult female........the animal kingdom and trees/plants were immediately full grown.......and the matter found across the cosmos (stars, planets, asteroids, comets, etc, etc) were immediately in place and properly mature and given light to the earth with no hesitation and no need for millions, billions, or trillions of years that contradict the literal 7 days in Genesis.
 
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