Bring Your Heresy Meters Please!!

RandallB

Well-Known Member
Been a bit since I last posted.... I have posted earlier versions of this pamphlet asking for feedback.... and your feedback has really guided me.
Things are getting real out there...
Wondering if it would be OK if I could circle back and ask for more guidance before I send this out to all my relatives.
This pamphlet has about doubled in size from the last time I posted it here. (Started out as a 4 pager.)
Here it is... https://www.docdroid.net/re0mdO1/history-of-the-future-t-2-pdf

Thanks
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Been a bit since I last posted.... I have posted earlier versions of this pamphlet asking for feedback.... and your feedback has really guided me.
Things are getting real out there...
Wondering if it would be OK if I could circle back and ask for more guidance before I send this out to all my relatives.
This pamphlet has about doubled in size from the last time I posted it here. (Started out as a 4 pager.)
Here it is... https://www.docdroid.net/re0mdO1/history-of-the-future-t-2-pdf

Thanks
I read thru it and LOVED IT!!!

That is a one stop shop of all things good with prophecy teaching and beautifully footnoted. I have and love many of the sources you are quoting, from Arnold Fruchtenbaum to Dr Ron Rhodes.

I'm so glad you are back posting again.

Yuppers, things got awfully real all of a sudden.

But I LOVE this article you've written.

Just a thought, if you published it in ebook form, I would buy it if it came in the kindle format. It's a very worthwhile document that would be a very good guide for people to pick up for their kindles or in paper form.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm still on the fence about whether Ps 83 is actually a near horizon prophecy, or just an imprecatory Psalm. I've read everything Bill Salus wrote on it, but remain unsure. Your explanation of is very persuasive particularly linking the people groups listed in some passages dealing with Elam, and the Destruction of Damascus.

I've been puzzling over the relationship of the various groups listed in Ezek 32, Jeremiah 49, Isaiah 17 as well as Amos trying to see cause and effect, as well as linkages between the groups. We had a huge thread on that, I'll see if I can find the part where one of our members @sawas made a very helpful chart. https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/gog-magog-invasion-timing.158790/page-3#post-843016378

Those linked scriptures and people groups are what tilts me towards Ps 83 as a near horizon prophecy.

I totally agree about the Elam area of Iran, as the trigger for Isaiah 17, which then puts in motion Ezek 38 and I like how you laid it out and put the different groups/nations listed into the Psalm 83 situation.

I've always figured the Hagarites of Psalm 83 weren't talking about Egypt, but rather a tribe of Arabs that took the matriarchal name. They appear in history and are not representing Egypt. It's one reason Bill's theory didn't convince me, but you use the tribe of Arabs, and that does make sense. Plus the scriptures that seem to dovetail together, with Is 17, Ezek 32 and others.

Egypt appears in the other great Elam passage in Ezek 32 verse 17-32 and this is very interesting because as Bill Salus points out, they are all linked by terrorism. Egypt isn't accused of terrorism, but appears to have suffered with the others, and is consoled by the death of the other groups. Elam figures in Jeremiah 49 alongside the other great destruction of Damascus passage and they are accompanied by a bunch more of the groups mentioned in Ezek 32 and
 
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pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
The peace then war coincides with the first two seal judgments, peace then war, as Andy Woods explains in the When section (~page 50ish) of his book Middle East Meltdown. (Amazon, Kindle, $5.99)

The problem of burning weapons into the MK is negated by the fact Babylon burns throughout that period, so...

This view makes the most sense to me currently. In E38, God's attention is clearly back on the Nation, and when it's done, they and other nations will know He is the Lord.
 

cshere

Well-Known Member
Been a bit since I last posted.... I have posted earlier versions of this pamphlet asking for feedback.... and your feedback has really guided me.
Things are getting real out there...
Wondering if it would be OK if I could circle back and ask for more guidance before I send this out to all my relatives.
This pamphlet has about doubled in size from the last time I posted it here. (Started out as a 4 pager.)
Here it is... https://www.docdroid.net/re0mdO1/history-of-the-future-t-2-pdf

Thanks
SOOOOOO good to see you here!!!! Thank you for sharing!
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I'm still on the fence about whether Ps 83 is actually a near horizon prophecy, or just an imprecatory Psalm. I've read everything Bill Salus wrote on it, but remain unsure. Your explanation of is very persuasive particularly linking the people groups listed in some passages dealing with Elam, and the Destruction of Damascus.

I've been puzzling over the relationship of the various groups listed in Ezek 32, Jeremiah 49, Isaiah 17 as well as Amos trying to see cause and effect, as well as linkages between the groups. We had a huge thread on that, I'll see if I can find the part where one of our members @sawas made a very helpful chart. https://www.raptureforums.com/forums/threads/gog-magog-invasion-timing.158790/page-3#post-843016378

Those linked scriptures and people groups are what tilts me towards Ps 83 as a near horizon prophecy.

I totally agree about the Elam area of Iran, as the trigger for Isaiah 17, which then puts in motion Ezek 38 and I like how you laid it out and put the different groups/nations listed into the Psalm 83 situation.

I've always figured the Hagarites of Psalm 83 weren't talking about Egypt, but rather a tribe of Arabs that took the matriarchal name. They appear in history and are not representing Egypt. It's one reason Bill's theory didn't convince me, but you use the tribe of Arabs, and that does make sense. Plus the scriptures that seem to dovetail together, with Is 17, Ezek 32 and others.

Egypt appears in the other great Elam passage in Ezek 32 verse 17-32 and this is very interesting because as Bill Salus points out, they are all linked by terrorism. Egypt isn't accused of terrorism, but appears to have suffered with the others, and is consoled by the death of the other groups. Elam figures in Jeremiah 49 alongside the other great destruction of Damascus passage and they are accompanied by a bunch more of the groups mentioned in Ezek 32 and

Im still in touch with Uturn and he staunchly disagrees with psalm 83 being a future prophecy too LOL.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Im still in touch with Uturn and he staunchly disagrees with psalm 83 being a future prophecy too LOL.
Say hi from me, and best regards.

I'm not firm enough on either position to really go one way or another. I hesitate to join the Psalm 83 people because Psalm 83 may simply be a smaller part of the whole overnight war of Isaiah 17 and Elam.

I think of it as the Damascus Event.

The Damascus event IS the one I'm waiting for, closely followed by Ezek 38 but not necessarily in one distinct Psalm 83 war as Bill Salus outlines it in his books. An overnight regional war that takes out a lot of bystanders who have a grudge against Israel and seem to be piling on with Syria who starts it.

Those who say Psalm 83 was all fulfilled in 48 and 67 have good points, but they too have problems-- since if this was a prophecy it is yet to be fulfilled completely. Those who argue it must be a separate war apart from Isaiah 17 ignore the proximity of many of the players in the main Damascus prophetic passages. So I hesitate to join that camp as well.

What I think will happen is something much larger, encompassing a lot more people groups than just the city of Damascus or Psalm 83 participants.

For now I'll call it the Damascus Event.

The same players in Psalm 83 are mentioned in close proximity to each other in Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Ezekiel 32 as well as Amos, Obadiah and Zechariah 9:1-8 which makes me think they occur ALONGSIDE the Damascus destruction.

The wording of Ezekiel 32 talking about Egypt's role is very interesting. Verse 17 to 32 cover the Elam situation.

All of the players except Egypt are mentioned as being dead due to terrorism that they spread "in the land of the living". But not Egypt. Egypt is CONSOLED for their dead according to Jeremiah speaking on God's behalf to Egypt by the death of all the others.

(Jeremiah 49 covers Damascus, AND Elam along with Jordan and a part of Saudi Arabia)

Isaiah 17 just deals with Damascus and the surrounding area in Syria. For more details, we can go to Ezek 32 and Amos 1&2 as these seem to be talking about the same situation but then they include the other players.

That chart that @sawas made is the best way to see it all at a glance.

If we think of it as the "Psalm 83 war" the focus is off, it's not wrong, but it limits the scope to Psalm 83, whereas if we look at the following passages, the larger picture comes into view.

Psalm 83 doesn't even mention Elam or Persia once but keeping them out of the whole picture would be a mistake. If we focus FIRST on Elam and Damascus as the main players, then all the others in Psalm 83 appear.

It's like looking only at Isaiah 17, where NONE of the other players, including Elam appear. But the minute that other passages that deal with Damascus are looked at, a harmony of other players starts to appear, in multiple places.

Damascus is the pin holding them all together, Damascus and Elam.

When it happens, it happens so fast that it's evening to morning. Done. Isaiah talks about the nations in V 12 and 13 as being in an uproar, but God deals with them and they flee away. v 14 it's done by morning time.

Overnight, the world changes and Israel limps home (Isaiah 17 pictures devastation there too, that they must recover from) but it appears that God has helped them win a major victory.

The Ezek 38 gang however bides their time, to strike at a time when Israel isn't expecting any further attacks. When Israel is dwelling in peace.

Something I noticed when reviewing that word study on horses and chariots, was the word for storm that came up in Ezekiel 38. It's the Hebrew word Shoah, which is the term the Jews gave to the Holocaust. It implies a total devastation with a scant few survivors. A vast force that cannot be withstood under any circumstance.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
Say hi from me, and best regards.

I'm not firm enough on either position to really go one way or another. I hesitate to join the Psalm 83 people because Psalm 83 may simply be a smaller part of the whole overnight war of Isaiah 17 and Elam.

I think of it as the Damascus Event.

The Damascus event IS the one I'm waiting for, closely followed by Ezek 38 but not necessarily in one distinct Psalm 83 war as Bill Salus outlines it in his books. An overnight regional war that takes out a lot of bystanders who have a grudge against Israel and seem to be piling on with Syria who starts it.

Those who say Psalm 83 was all fulfilled in 48 and 67 have good points, but they too have problems-- since if this was a prophecy it is yet to be fulfilled completely. Those who argue it must be a separate war apart from Isaiah 17 ignore the proximity of many of the players in the main Damascus prophetic passages. So I hesitate to join that camp as well.

What I think will happen is something much larger, encompassing a lot more people groups than just the city of Damascus or Psalm 83 participants.

For now I'll call it the Damascus Event.

The same players in Psalm 83 are mentioned in close proximity to each other in Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49, Ezekiel 32 as well as Amos, Obadiah and Zechariah 9:1-8 which makes me think they occur ALONGSIDE the Damascus destruction.

The wording of Ezekiel 32 talking about Egypt's role is very interesting. Verse 17 to 32 cover the Elam situation.

All of the players except Egypt are mentioned as being dead due to terrorism that they spread "in the land of the living". But not Egypt. Egypt is CONSOLED for their dead according to Jeremiah speaking on God's behalf to Egypt by the death of all the others.

(Jeremiah 49 covers Damascus, AND Elam along with Jordan and a part of Saudi Arabia)

Isaiah 17 just deals with Damascus and the surrounding area in Syria. For more details, we can go to Ezek 32 and Amos 1&2 as these seem to be talking about the same situation but then they include the other players.

That chart that @sawas made is the best way to see it all at a glance.

If we think of it as the "Psalm 83 war" the focus is off, it's not wrong, but it limits the scope to Psalm 83, whereas if we look at the following passages, the larger picture comes into view.

Psalm 83 doesn't even mention Elam or Persia once but keeping them out of the whole picture would be a mistake. If we focus FIRST on Elam and Damascus as the main players, then all the others in Psalm 83 appear.

It's like looking only at Isaiah 17, where NONE of the other players, including Elam appear. But the minute that other passages that deal with Damascus are looked at, a harmony of other players starts to appear, in multiple places.

Damascus is the pin holding them all together, Damascus and Elam.

When it happens, it happens so fast that it's evening to morning. Done. Isaiah talks about the nations in V 12 and 13 as being in an uproar, but God deals with them and they flee away. v 14 it's done by morning time.

Overnight, the world changes and Israel limps home (Isaiah 17 pictures devastation there too, that they must recover from) but it appears that God has helped them win a major victory.

The Ezek 38 gang however bides their time, to strike at a time when Israel isn't expecting any further attacks. When Israel is dwelling in peace.

Something I noticed when reviewing that word study on horses and chariots, was the word for storm that came up in Ezekiel 38. It's the Hebrew word Shoah, which is the term the Jews gave to the Holocaust. It implies a total devastation with a scant few survivors. A vast force that cannot be withstood under any circumstance.

Egypt's fate is definitely an interesting one, im wondering if they come to some sort of national repentance after these judgements as i seem to recall they are mentioned as a nation during the millennial kingdom
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
I don't see how Israel can be a peaceful nation without walls if Psalm 83 doesn't happen first..
Neither can i but looking at videos of parts of Israel I can definitely understand how certain Jews say they are in a peaceful and prosperous land, watching them myself I just marvel at the weather, the architecture etc etc.
 

crunchymama

Well-Known Member
I don't see how Israel can be a peaceful nation without walls if Psalm 83 doesn't happen first
I don't think Psalm 83 is a future prophecy- I think it was fulfilled already. Here's the thing- the #1 enemy of Israel is Iran. Jordan and Egypt (Syria is tricky now that Iran and Russia are getting involved with Syria) are not the enemies of Israel NOW. Iran is and always will be. Iran is not part of Psalm 83. So even if Psalm 83 is a future prophecy, and Israel goes to war AGAIN with her neighbors and wins AGAIN, it still doesn't solve the Iran problem. And Israel can never be a completely peaceful nation with Iran being the nation it currently is. And Iran will not be dealt with until Ex 38. I guess it's possible Psalm 83 happens after Ez38, but I don't think that is likely.
 
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daygo

Well-Known Member
I don't think Psalm 83 is a future prophecy- I think it was fulfilled already. Here's the thing- the #1 enemy of Israel is Iran. Jordan and Egypt (Syria is tricky now that Iran and Russia are getting involved with Syria) are not the enemies of Israel NOW. Iran is and always will be. Iran is not part of Psalm 83. So even if Psalm 83 is a future prophecy, and Israel goes to war AGAIN with her neighbors and wins AGAIN, it still doesn't solve the Iran problem. And Israel can never be a completely peaceful nation with Iran being the nation it currently is. And Iran will not be dealt with until Ex 38. I guess it's possible Psalm 83 happens after Ez38, but I don't think that is likely.
I think psalm 83 has been fulfilled via 1948, 1967.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
Psalm 83 is supposed to take out all of Israel's surrounding immidiate neighbors, leaving Israel so peaceful that it removes all it's walls..I don't see any of that, what I do see is Israel's immidiate neighbors surrounding her, threatening her, shooting rockets at her, sneaking in and kiiling it's citizens in the dead of night by slitting throats, or taking out whole stores full of Israeli's in broad daylight by way of suicide bombers and I also see Israel defending itself with rockets of their own, the dome they have which is really an invisible wall and of course the wall they've been working on for what seems like forever that they just finished, if these are the results of the fulfillment of Psalm 83, it's the worst job of fulfilling prophecy that God has ever pulled off...
 

RandallB

Well-Known Member
Great discussion! Below is a possible roadmap for final fulfillment of Ps83 being still in our future... We certainly have had a huge foretaste of it already...

Appendix A Issue: Psalm 83 is Only a Prayer not a Prophecy

Completely agree that Psalm 83 describes a prayer by Asaph the Seer (ie Prophet) for judgment against a group of nations that are surrounding Israel, that hate her and that want Israel wiped off the map.

This prayer was prayed during a time when Israel was in a Covenant Relationship with the Lord. It was prayed so that the Lord would answer it later - at a time when they weren't in a Covenant Relationship. This prayer was prayed by a Seer which is another name for a Prophet.

Psalm 83 is therefore also a Prophecy and Zep 2, Zech 9, Ezek 35, and Jer 49 are the Specific Prophecies of the Lord’s judgments against these Ps 83 nations in answer to Asaph's prayer.

Definite Prophecy in Ps 83
Asaph in Psalm 83 specifically prophesizes that the surrounding nations would “For they have consulted together with one consent; They form a confederacy against You”. This has never happened in the past that these nations ever all conspired together. 1948/49, 1967 were pretty close but not close enough for a final fulfillment of scripture but probably points to the beginning of the fulfillment of Ps 83. Asaph prayed/prophesied that these surrounding nations that would be planning on destroying Israel would in turn be destroyed themselves.

It looks like Asaph’s prayer is pretty effective as per the following prophetic scriptures:
Edom= Southern Jordan.....(Psalms 83:6) --> Jer 49:18 ..no one shall remain
Moab= Central Jordan….....(Psalms 83:6) --> Zep 2:9 ..perpetual desolation
Ammon=Northern Jordan....( Psalms 83:7) --> Zep 2:9 ..perpetual desolation
Hagarenes=Eastern Jordan....(Psalms 83:6)
Philistines=Gaza..........(Psalms 83:7) --> Zep 2:5 .. no inhabitant
Gebal=northern Lebanon (Psalms 83:7) --> Zec 9:4 ..devoured by fire.
Tyre..=southern Lebanon (Psalms 83:7) --> Zec 9:4 ..devoured by fire.
Assur=northern Syria..... (Psalms 83:8) --> Zep 2:13 .. destroy Assyria
Assur=northern Iraq...... (Psalms 83:8) --> Zep 2:13 .. destroy Assyria
Amalek= the Sinai........ (Psalms 83:7) --> Jer 49:18 ..no one shall dwell in it.

The Fates of these Ps 83 nations include terms of “perpetual desolation” and “no inhabitant” are enough to take our breath away. From these terms we know none of these Fates have been fully executed in history so therefore they are still in the future.

We can see that there are definite corresponding Prophecies of destruction for each of the Nations and People groups that are mentioned in Psalm 83. Those that claim Asaph’s Psalm 83 is not a Prophecy must also somehow prove that Zephaniah, Zechariah, and Jeremiah and their writings in scripture are not Prophecies either. A pretty tall drink of water indeed…

These verses describe a Ps 83 confederation of nations that have a different purpose than the Ezek 38 nations. The Ps 83 Nations want to destroy Israel so that it is “Remembered No More” (contrast with Ezek 38 Nations’ purpose - “taking plunder”). This is right out of today’s newspapers and right at our doorsteps. The War prayed for in Ps 83 (fulfilled in Zep 2, Zec 9, Joel 1, Amos 1, Obadiah 1) allows Israel to feel secure “Betach” (pre-req for Ezek 38) after defeating (at least temporarily) all the scornful nations that surround Israel (i.e. Ezek 28:25-26). Israel will also grow rich due to these conquests of neighboring nations (also pre-req for Ezek 38) as well as developing their oil/gas reserves. So it looks like the Ps 83 judgments must happen before and may even be part of the cause of the Ezek 38 invasion. Scripture also talks about Israel inhabiting the Land of their enemies. Isaiah 11:12-14; Zeph 2:9, Jer 49:2. This has not happened in the past and therefore is still in the future.

Therefore, we see that Asaph’s Psalm 83 is indeed a Prophecy as written by a Prophet (Seer) and has collaboration in additional Prophecies by the Prophets Jeremiah, Zephaniah, and Zechariah and nobody questions their credentials as prophets.
 
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