Best Argument Against the Rapture

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Seashell

Active Member
The Pre Trib Rapture was taught by Paul in 1Thess 4:13-18. 1Thess 5:9 tells us that we are NOT appointed to suffer God's wrath which is what the Seven Year Tribulation period is, but to have salvation in Jesus
I was wondering how this verse points to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I see where it says Jesus will take the believers with him, but I don’t see a when.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Where does it say this in the bible:

"
THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.
"
Who is the authority for this "golden rule of interpretation"? Just some dude with an opinion. Why should I trust them?

My rule is to let scripture interpret scripture.

Well, if you had gotten off your high horse, that was basically what he was saying. :twitch

Dr. Cooper was very well respected and cited by all the sound Bible teachers that I know. It is a very good rule to follow. :thumbup

After your promotion of false teachings and the warnings I've had to give you in the short time you've been here, your time is up. :wave
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
Don't know about strongest, but I see them post on FB that the rapture is too new of an idea to be real (so I link to the articles here) and that Christians are not meant to have "an easy way out."
I’ve had that discussion with SIL and my answer….There is no easy way out! If you are about our Fathers’s work by discipline the nations, we should be busy studying His word and planting seeds. He brought that up to me last week..by saying that all we Pre Mills do is look up! We do look up, BUT we also follow God’s commands. I can’t wait until I see him up there….it will be hard not to say, “Told yah”!

But I won’t have time to do that!
 

Wally

Choose Your Words Carefully...
Basic rule for Bible study I was taught:

Context. Context. Context.

Context: Time -When and where is the text - what's happening, who is speaking, who is the audience

Context: Preceding and following Scripture - what is the relationship of the verse to those around it

Context: Other Scripture in the Bible - there are no contradictions, but plenty of reader misperceptions and misunderstanding.

and then Smother it with Prayer.

And if you have to bend the Word to make it fit, drop the tools before you hurt yourself.

Mark 10:15 HCSB
I assure you: Whoever does not welcome the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

Kids can be some of the most literal beings around.
 
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That's very true indeed. For example, with the Creation account God tells a very basic yet extremely truthful account of how things came about for mankind.

It would be well above our and our ancestors knowledge 1,000's of years ago to have presented a great detailed account of the Creation. So, God tells us what we "need" to know not necessarily what we would "like" to know.

The same thing with the rapture. He tells us what we "need" to know (that it will happen before the Tribulation and when he pours out his wrath on unrepentant sinners and unbelieving Israel) and not necessarily what we would "like" to know (such as an exact date), etc.

It's that way with other things, too.

You would probably need a whole library of books on what happened during the first day of Creation if God tried to explain everything in a detailed way in today's modern scientific way. It just wasn't practical to do that. Also, telling us what we "need" to know as opposed to what we would "like" to know allows us to make a decision to believe God and learn to just trust in Him. I believe when we get to Heaven that we will be shown how everything happened in detail and unbelievers will be without excuse.

Many will probably say something like "But, but, Lord we didn't think that could happen or we thought this or that" and sadly they will be told "I'm sorry, but you thought wrong." but you chose to believe a lie than to delight in the truth of God. :sad
I think on the surface the creation account looks basic (goes for most of scripture) but when digging into it, studying it, I think it goes very deep and profound.
 

SkyRider

Well-Known Member
I was wondering how this verse points to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I see where it says Jesus will take the believers with him, but I don’t see a when.
The Rapture has always been considered an “imminent” event, that it could happen at any time - there are no signs that need to occur before this event. The signs we are witnessing taking place around the globe point to the soon onset of the seven-year, last week of Daniel's prophecy Tribulation period. Jesus compared the prophesied end time events that will occur as being like the times of Noah and Lot: in both cases, before catastrophe struck, Noah and Lot were safely removed or protected by God immediately prior to the disaster being unleashed. Likewise, we see the Church safely in Heaven before the opening seal of the Tribulation starting. The elders seen around the throne of God are wearing crowns on their heads, signifying that the Bema Seat judgment of Christ has already occurred, where rewards are handed out for service to our Lord. Up until the Bema Seat judgment, no one is wearing crowns. It is after this depicted scene, that John scribes that the Lamb opens the first seal, unleashing the Antichrist into world affairs, then he inks the seven-year covenant of “death and hell” between a deceived Israel and its Arab/Islamic neighbors.

A mid wrath or post wrath Rapture just does not fit into the order of events listed in Revelation. A pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only logical choice that fits chronologically; the Church is never mentioned again during the Trib until we come back to Earth with Christ at the conclusion of the Tribulation.
 

lismore

Well-Known Member
I was wondering how this verse points to a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. I see where it says Jesus will take the believers with him, but I don’t see a when.
The Tribulation in the OT is referred to as the time of Jacob's Trouble. Jeremiah 30 shows the purpose of it, to bring the Jews back to their God, to their Messiah. For the church to go through the time of Jacob' trouble would not really have a purpose. God Bless :)
 

Ghoti Ichthus

Pray so they do not serve alone. Ephesians 6:10-20
There will be a lot of surprised, but delighted, Christians :smile

I grew up in and still attend a church that doesn't believe in a literal 7-year tribulation or literal 1000 reign of Christ on Earth.
There's at least one closet pre-Tribber in this church/denomination :lol

The church I attend is very conservative/traditional, still preaches and teaches the Bible, as it understands it, to include the Bible being the inspired, inerrant Word of God, literal 6/ 24-hour day creation, literal worldwide flood, etc., and all core beliefs, as confessed in the Apostle's and Nicene Creeds. That denomination's belief about the Rapture is that the Church will be Raptured at the Second Coming. Before anyone asks, God has made it very clear to me that He wants me in a church of a particular denominational background and tradition. The church I'm attending now is definitely feeding me with what I need.


It should be noted, most churches, which take a literal view about (at least most) future prophetic passages, don't take a literal view about some other things in the Bible, and visa versa. Not having a totally literal view of ALL of the Bible is something that has puzzled me for a very long time.

We're currently studying Ezekiel and I "have questions" when we get to Chapters 38 and 39 that will undoubtedly :stirpot
 
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Christianos

New Member
THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.
Absolutely. But put yourself in the position of a Bible scholar prior to 1948. I would imagine it was very hard to them (except for a few brave souls who stood out) to believe somehow Israel could be re-born as a nation after 2k years of being dispersed. Many including the church leaders of that last 2k years thought that to be impossible, even for God. It's a lie from 'slew foot himself. So they had to come up with some explanation that fit their world view - and making the references to "Israel" somehow to mean references to "the church" was their answer. It snowballed from there to ignoring the tribulation and millennium as representing something else. I'm not defending them by any means - the regathering of Israel in 1948 was a miracle on the scale of the parting of the Red Sea but the mainstream churches largely ignore that. Granted, It would have been very hard to imagine back then.

What surprises me is how these groups have continued to hold on to that idea now that the nation of Israel is prophecy fulfilled - that's past "rationalization" and has moved into "heresy". I was raised in a conservative Lutheran church and asked once "Can we do some liturgy different from the red hymnal page 5 once in a while?" and even gave the Pastor a DVD of one of Jack Van Impe's teachings - he fumbled something like "I haven't discussed that since theological school", treating me like a complete idiot. The topic never came up again. They are truly blinded. And as others wisely suggested, it's all in the rules of interpretation. For me, it's what God said. When I get to heaven and see my Lord, I'd rather say "My bad, I thought when you said 'Israel' you meant 'Israel' and not 'the church" if my understanding is incorrect. Of course, I will miss tons of hidden truths in the Word but I hope we don't miss the obvious. I don't second guess the Word but I take is using the above rules of simple interpretation.
 
I don't think many Christians reject the idea of the rapture, they just don't necessarily think it is before the tribulation.
I used to be a pre tribulation believer, but I am now undecided. I veer more towards the rapture being towards the end of the tribulation. I do, however, think our faith will be strengthened during this time.
I hope to be wrong, but the pre tribulation theory now makes no sense to ME when I read the Bible. It feels like I am trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
As I say, I very much hope I am wrong but you can only go with what feels comfortable biblically to you personally.
 
I don't think anyone who doesn't believe in a pre tribulation rapture wants to be right. We are all eager to get out of here. It is not about wanting to stay in this world- it is only about truth to US. We can't believe something, now matter how much we want it to be true, if we feel it is wrong to US.
Much love.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I don't think many Christians reject the idea of the rapture, they just don't necessarily think it is before the tribulation.
I used to be a pre tribulation believer, but I am now undecided. I veer more towards the rapture being towards the end of the tribulation. I do, however, think our faith will be strengthened during this time.
I hope to be wrong, but the pre tribulation theory now makes no sense to ME when I read the Bible. It feels like I am trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
As I say, I very much hope I am wrong but you can only go with what feels comfortable biblically to you personally.
Why do you believe the church, indwelled by the Holy Spirit, would need to go through any portion of the tribulation?
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I don't think many Christians reject the idea of the rapture, they just don't necessarily think it is before the tribulation.
I used to be a pre tribulation believer, but I am now undecided. I veer more towards the rapture being towards the end of the tribulation. I do, however, think our faith will be strengthened during this time.
I hope to be wrong, but the pre tribulation theory now makes no sense to ME when I read the Bible. It feels like I am trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
As I say, I very much hope I am wrong but you can only go with what feels comfortable biblically to you personally.
I think the simple reference point apart from what Andy C mentioned about the Holy Spirit is that the tribulation is referred to as the "Time of Jacob's trouble" and not the time of the "Church's trouble".

After revelation 6 , no mention of the church is made and it's left to the 2 witnesses and the 144000 chosen from Israel to witness to the world about Christ and his soon to be judgement.

The question then becomes, why are the 2 witnesses and the 144000 given the role of preaching/evangelizing/warning of Christ's judgement if this is the role of what the church is supposed to be doing ?

The conclusion must be that the Church isn't on the earth to do this role and hence why the need for God to send the 2 witnesses and the 144000 if that sort of makes sense.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I don't think many Christians reject the idea of the rapture, they just don't necessarily think it is before the tribulation.
I used to be a pre tribulation believer, but I am now undecided. I veer more towards the rapture being towards the end of the tribulation. I do, however, think our faith will be strengthened during this time.
I hope to be wrong, but the pre tribulation theory now makes no sense to ME when I read the Bible. It feels like I am trying to fit a round peg in a square hole.
As I say, I very much hope I am wrong but you can only go with what feels comfortable biblically to you personally.

You can believe whatever you want. To each his own. :thumbup

However, I will take this time to make it clear that we are not going to debate the timing of the rapture here. I know that you have not debated or promoted other views here, but I am going to nip this in the bud before it possibly goes that way.

We are FIRMLY a pre-trib rapture site. Any other views on the rapture timing is not pre-trib is not welcome here. :thumbup

Thank you for understanding. :hat

ETA: After reading a few other responses I'm going to close this thread so that the forum rules are not violated.
 
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