Baptism

[DaveS]

Ok, so is indwelling equal to Spirit Baptism? According to the link?

The link says yes!

Good morning,

So actually the link says "no", not "yes".

A quote from the article: "The following facts are necessary to help solidify our understanding of Spirit baptism: First, 1 Corinthians 12:13 clearly states that all have been baptized, just as all been given the Spirit to drink (the indwelling of the Spirit)." What we could say now (I believe), and remain faithful and accurate to scripture, is that the Indwelling of God in the believer happens at the time of Spirit Baptism. What would be inaccurate to say, is that Spirit Baptism, and the indwelling of the GodHead in the believer (Jn. 14:16, 23; Col. 1:27; ), happens at the time of water baptism.

The link also identifies the passage you cited from Ephesians as Spirit Baptism, which I happen to agree with. Identifying the baptism from Ephesians as Spirit Baptism distinguishes it from water baptism, so when Paul says there is "one baptism" he has to have something else in mind besides denying that one or the other (water-Spirit baptism) exists. Right?

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[lightofmylife]

This is what I believe and also see from that link when we accept Jesus we are
baptized of the Holy Spirit, and water baptism is after that.

 

[DaveS]

This is what I believe and also see from that link when we accept Jesus we are
baptized of the Holy Spirit, and water baptism is after that.

Yes ma'am, I believe that too. Again though, the order that you and I agree is logical and correct according to scripture (and the link) creates a need for us to deal with the passage you originally cited yesterday (Eph. 4:5-6). That is since the order that you and I agree is logical and correct emphasizes two baptisms.

So far, we've dealt with distinctions between the Spirit's Baptism of the believer into the body and the Spirit's indwelling of the believer, and between Spirit Baptism and water baptism.

These are interesting considerations for believers to ponder, because they actually help harmonize biblical eschatology, which is our shared belief in premillennialism and pretribulationalism. When we speak about Spirit Baptism, we're speaking about the evidence for the beginning of the body of Christ, the church. Many other opposing factions within Christendom wield the passage you cited yesterday against us (as pre-trib/pre-mills), and attempt to connect Spirit Baptism and water baptism together. That's one way they try to justify defending water baptism as a sacrament. Believe me, we're in the minority in understanding baptism as a ordinance. So what I'm saying is this, I'm not trying to pick on you by asking these questions... I'm trying to help protect you.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[lightofmylife]

Yes ma'am, I believe that too. Again though, the order that you and I agree is logical and correct according to scripture (and the link) creates a need for us to deal with the passage you originally cited yesterday (Eph. 4:5-6). That is since the order that you and I agree is logical and correct emphasizes two baptisms.

So far, we've dealt with distinctions between the Spirit's Baptism of the believer into the body and the Spirit's indwelling of the believer, and between Spirit Baptism and water baptism.

These are interesting considerations for believers to ponder, because they actually help harmonize biblical eschatology, which is our shared belief in premillennialism and pretribulationalism. When we speak about Spirit Baptism, we're speaking about the evidence for the beginning of the body of Christ, the church. Many other opposing factions within Christendom wield the passage you cited yesterday against us (as pre-trib/pre-mills), and attempt to connect Spirit Baptism and water baptism together. That's one way they try to justify defending water baptism as a sacrament. Believe me, we're in the minority in understanding baptism as a ordinance. So what I'm saying is this, I'm not trying to pick on you by asking these questions... I'm trying to help protect you.

Kind regards,
Dave

I do understand that there is not another experience as some churches teach. Ephesians 4:5-6 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. This baptism is referring to having the Spirit after we are saved. Water baptism does not wash away our sins.

 

[DaveS]

I do understand that there is not another experience as some churches teach. Ephesians 4:5-6 There is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. This baptism is referring to having the Spirit after we are saved. Water baptism does not wash away our sins.

Here's a way to look at it from the point of view of the apostles, who were the first to experience the baptism of the Spirit.

First, they were indwelt by the Spirit (Jn. 20:22). Second, they were baptized by the Spirit (Acts 2). So baptism is not exactly referring to having the Spirit after salvation since the Apostles received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while the Baptism of the Spirit was yet still a future event (Acts 1:5). There was a delay in the beginning, and the delay highlights the distinction between indwelling and baptism.

Here's another way to look at it. (Eph. 2:11-22) teaches that everyone who believes becomes a member of the body of Christ. (I Cor. 12:13) teaches that we all become members of the body of Christ through the baptism of the Spirit. There was a delay at the beginning, but there is no delay now for believers. We are regenerated by the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, and Baptized by the Spirit when we believe.

 

[lightofmylife]

Here's a way to look at it from the point of view of the apostles, who were the first to experience the baptism of the Spirit.

First, they were indwelt by the Spirit (Jn. 20:22). Second, they were baptized by the Spirit (Acts 2). So baptism is not exactly referring to having the Spirit after salvation since the Apostles received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit while the Baptism of the Spirit was yet still a future event (Acts 1:5). There was a delay in the beginning, and the delay highlights the distinction between indwelling and baptism.

Here's another way to look at it. (Eph. 2:11-22) teaches that everyone who believes becomes a member of the body of Christ. (I Cor. 12:13) teaches that we all become members of the body of Christ through the baptism of the Spirit. There was a delay at the beginning, but there is no delay now for believers. We are regenerated by the Spirit, indwelt by the Spirit, and Baptized by the Spirit when we believe.

I agree! Here is another good link https://www.gotquestions.org/one-baptism.html

 

[DaveS]

I agree! Here is another good link https://www.gotquestions.org/one-baptism.html

It's good stuff, the study of baptism that is.

Spirit baptism is so often under emphasized, and it's so super important for the saints to know. Water baptism is really interesting also, baptism is truly one of my favorite topics... I always perk up when the subject is brought up.

God bless your studies without measure ma'am,
Daves

 

[Steve53]

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/more-on-baptism-and-salvation/

 

[mattfivefour]

This is what I believe and also see from that link when we accept Jesus we are
baptized of the Holy Spirit, and water baptism is after that.

Of course, DL Moody and RA Torrey would completely disagree with this. Both believed from Scripture and regularly preached that Baptism in/by/with the Holy Spirit occurred subsequent to salvation. In fact seeking that "baptism" was an important focus for his students at Northfield.

In point 7 of his lengthy 1923 article entitled "Why God Used D.L. Moody" Torrey wrote:

"Time and again, when a call came to me to go off to some church, he would come up to me and say: "Now, Torrey, be sure and preach on the baptism with the Holy Ghost." I do not know how many times he said that to me. Once I asked him: "Mr. Moody, don't you think I have any sermons but those two: 'Ten Reasons Why I Believe the Bible to Be the Word of God' and 'The Baptism With the Holy Ghost'?" "Never mind that," he replied, "you give them those two sermons.

Once he had some teachers at Northfield—fine men, all of them, but they did not believe in a definite baptism with the Holy Ghost for the individual. They believed that every child of God was baptized with the Holy Ghost, and they did not believe in any special baptism with the Holy Ghost for the individual. Mr. Moody came to me and said: "Torrey, will you come up to my house after the meeting tonight and I will get those men to come, and I want you to talk this thing out with them."

Of course, I very readily consented, and Mr. Moody and I talked for a long time, but they did not altogether see eye to eye with us. And when they went, Mr. Moody signaled me to remain for a few moments. Mr. Moody sat there with his chin on his breast, as he so often sat when he was in deep thought; then he looked up and said: "Oh, why will they split hairs? Why don't they see that this is just the one thing that they themselves need? They are good teachers, they are wonderful teachers, and I am so glad to have them here; but why will they not see that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is just the one touch that they themselves need?"

I shall never forget the eighth of July, 1894, to my dying day. It was the closing day of the Northfield Students' Conference—the gathering of the students from the eastern colleges. Mr. Moody had asked me to preach on Saturday night and Sunday morning on the baptism with the Holy Ghost. On Saturday night I had spoken about, "The Baptism With the Holy Ghost: What It Is; What It Does; the Need of It and the Possibility of It." On Sunday morning I spoke on "The Baptism With the Holy Spirit: How to Get It." It was just exactly twelve o'clock when I finished my morning sermon, and I took out my watch and said: "Mr. Moody has invited us all to go up to the mountain at three o'clock this afternoon to pray for the power of the Holy Spirit. It is three hours to three o'clock. Some of you cannot wait three hours. You do not need to wait. Go to your rooms; go out into the woods; go to your tent; go anywhere where you can get alone with God and have this matter out with Him."

At three o'clock we all gathered in front of Mr. Moody's mother's house (she was then still living), and then began to pass down the lane, through the gate, up on the mountainside. There were four hundred and fifty-six of us in all; I know the number because Paul Moody counted us as we passed through the gate.

After a while Mr. Moody said: "I don't think we need to go any further; let us sit down here." We sat down on stumps and logs and on the ground. Mr. Moody said: "Have any of you students anything to say?" I think about seventy-five of them arose, one after the other, and said: "Mr. Moody, I could not wait till three o'clock; I have been alone with God since the morning service, and I believe I have a right to say that I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit."

When these testimonies were over, Mr. Moody said: "Young men, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't kneel down here right now and ask God that the Holy Ghost may fall upon us just as definitely as He fell upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Let us pray." And we did pray, there on the mountainside. As we had gone up the mountainside heavy clouds had been gathering, and just as we began to pray those clouds broke and the raindrops began to fall through the overhanging pines. But there was another cloud that had been gathering over Northfield for ten days, a cloud big with the mercy and grace and power of God; and as we began to pray our prayers seemed to pierce that cloud and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. Men and women, that is what we all need the Baptism with the Holy Ghost."

​

 

[Jan51]

Of course, DL Moody and RA Torrey would completely disagree with this. Both believed from Scripture and regularly preached that Baptism in/by/with the Holy Spirit occurred subsequent to salvation. In fact seeking that "baptism" was an important focus for his students at Northfield.

In point 7 of his lengthy 1923 article entitled "Why God Used D.L. Moody" Torrey wrote:

"Time and again, when a call came to me to go off to some church, he would come up to me and say: "Now, Torrey, be sure and preach on the baptism with the Holy Ghost." I do not know how many times he said that to me. Once I asked him: "Mr. Moody, don't you think I have any sermons but those two: 'Ten Reasons Why I Believe the Bible to Be the Word of God' and 'The Baptism With the Holy Ghost'?" "Never mind that," he replied, "you give them those two sermons.

Once he had some teachers at Northfield—fine men, all of them, but they did not believe in a definite baptism with the Holy Ghost for the individual. They believed that every child of God was baptized with the Holy Ghost, and they did not believe in any special baptism with the Holy Ghost for the individual. Mr. Moody came to me and said: "Torrey, will you come up to my house after the meeting tonight and I will get those men to come, and I want you to talk this thing out with them."

Of course, I very readily consented, and Mr. Moody and I talked for a long time, but they did not altogether see eye to eye with us. And when they went, Mr. Moody signaled me to remain for a few moments. Mr. Moody sat there with his chin on his breast, as he so often sat when he was in deep thought; then he looked up and said: "Oh, why will they split hairs? Why don't they see that this is just the one thing that they themselves need? They are good teachers, they are wonderful teachers, and I am so glad to have them here; but why will they not see that the baptism with the Holy Ghost is just the one touch that they themselves need?"

I shall never forget the eighth of July, 1894, to my dying day. It was the closing day of the Northfield Students' Conference—the gathering of the students from the eastern colleges. Mr. Moody had asked me to preach on Saturday night and Sunday morning on the baptism with the Holy Ghost. On Saturday night I had spoken about, "The Baptism With the Holy Ghost: What It Is; What It Does; the Need of It and the Possibility of It." On Sunday morning I spoke on "The Baptism With the Holy Spirit: How to Get It." It was just exactly twelve o'clock when I finished my morning sermon, and I took out my watch and said: "Mr. Moody has invited us all to go up to the mountain at three o'clock this afternoon to pray for the power of the Holy Spirit. It is three hours to three o'clock. Some of you cannot wait three hours. You do not need to wait. Go to your rooms; go out into the woods; go to your tent; go anywhere where you can get alone with God and have this matter out with Him."

At three o'clock we all gathered in front of Mr. Moody's mother's house (she was then still living), and then began to pass down the lane, through the gate, up on the mountainside. There were four hundred and fifty-six of us in all; I know the number because Paul Moody counted us as we passed through the gate.

After a while Mr. Moody said: "I don't think we need to go any further; let us sit down here." We sat down on stumps and logs and on the ground. Mr. Moody said: "Have any of you students anything to say?" I think about seventy-five of them arose, one after the other, and said: "Mr. Moody, I could not wait till three o'clock; I have been alone with God since the morning service, and I believe I have a right to say that I have been baptized with the Holy Spirit."

When these testimonies were over, Mr. Moody said: "Young men, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't kneel down here right now and ask God that the Holy Ghost may fall upon us just as definitely as He fell upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost. Let us pray." And we did pray, there on the mountainside. As we had gone up the mountainside heavy clouds had been gathering, and just as we began to pray those clouds broke and the raindrops began to fall through the overhanging pines. But there was another cloud that had been gathering over Northfield for ten days, a cloud big with the mercy and grace and power of God; and as we began to pray our prayers seemed to pierce that cloud and the Holy Ghost fell upon us. Men and women, that is what we all need the Baptism with the Holy Ghost."

​

I do not see any scriptural evidence here that the baptism of the Holy Spirit follows sometime after salvation and must be sought. Pentecost was the initial giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This event cannot be duplicated. Nowhere does Paul indicate believers are to seek this baptism. He speaks of how all believers have it. Whatever experience these men had must be evaluated in the light of Scripture, not the other way around.

 

[mattfivefour]

I do not see any scriptural evidence here that the baptism of the Holy Spirit follows sometime after salvation and must be sought. Pentecost was the initial giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This event cannot be duplicated. Nowhere does Paul indicate believers are to seek this baptism. He speaks of how all believers have it. Whatever experience these men had must be evaluated in the light of Scripture, not the other way around.

I guess, respectfully, Jan, it's possible that Moody and Torrey had incorrect or erroneous knowledge of Scripture; that Moody was in grave error when he stated that his ministry never had power until he received this baptism that He had been seeking in prayer for a very long time, that the explosion of power in his ministry following his belief that He had received this thing, resulting in thousands being saved at his meetings whereas previously there were comparatively few conversions, was simply coincidence; and that Moody corrupted an entire generation of Baptist ministers by his preaching and that of Torrey. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I am simply stating the obvious conclusion based on what he and Torrey have written set against what you have written and many modern Baptists believe. Or it could be that WE are in error in our own understanding of Scripture in this matter.

 

[lightofmylife]

I guess, respectfully, Jan, it's possible that Moody and Torrey had incorrect or erroneous knowledge of Scripture; that Moody was in grave error when he stated that his ministry never had power until he received this baptism that He had been seeking in prayer for a very long time, that the explosion of power in his ministry following his belief that He had received this thing, resulting in thousands being saved at his meetings whereas previously there were comparatively few conversions, was simply coincidence; and that Moody corrupted an entire generation of Baptist ministers by his preaching and that of Torrey. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I am simply stating the obvious conclusion based on what he and Torrey have written set against what you have written and many modern Baptists believe. Or it could be that WE are in error in our own understanding of Scripture in this matter.

Do you agree or disagree with Moody/Torrey on what they believed?

 

[Jan51]

I guess, respectfully, Jan, it's possible that Moody and Torrey had incorrect or erroneous knowledge of Scripture; that Moody was in grave error when he stated that his ministry never had power until he received this baptism that He had been seeking in prayer for a very long time, that the explosion of power in his ministry following his belief that He had received this thing, resulting in thousands being saved at his meetings whereas previously there were comparatively few conversions, was simply coincidence; and that Moody corrupted an entire generation of Baptist ministers by his preaching and that of Torrey. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I am simply stating the obvious conclusion based on what he and Torrey have written set against what you have written and many modern Baptists believe. Or it could be that WE are in error in our own understanding of Scripture in this matter.

Again, doctrine is not to be based on anyone's experience, but only on Scripture. It has nothing to do with being Baptist. Paul admonishes all to be Bereans.

 

[mattfivefour]

Do you agree or disagree with Moody/Torrey on what they believed?

Yes, based on my study of Scripture --free of any church upbringing or ingrained doctrines, since I never heard the gospel (at least not that I recall) or read the Bible at all till I was 29-- I came to the same conclusion as they did ... even though it was not until I was in my early sixties that I learned this is what they believed also.

Jan, I agree that Scripture alone has to be the basis for our doctrine and it is on that basis alone that I believe as I do. The fact that a few hundred million others believe the same thing in one way or another (2018 Pew Research statistics) is immaterial to my own belief. I will never believe something because other people believe it, and that fact has separated me from many people who hold to their church's beliefs above independently studied Scripture.

 

[DaveS]

Yes, based on my study of Scripture --free of any church upbringing or ingrained doctrines, since I never heard the gospel (at least not that I recall) or read the Bible at all till I was 29-- I came to the same conclusion as they did ... even though it was not until I was in my early sixties that I learned this is what they believed also.

Jan, I agree that Scripture alone has to be the basis for our doctrine and it is on that basis alone that I believe as I do. The fact that a few hundred million others believe the same thing in one way or another (2018 Pew Research statistics) is immaterial to my own belief. I will never believe something because other people believe it, and that fact has separated me from many people who hold to their church's beliefs above independently studied Scripture.

Good morning,

Something that may be interesting to note is that Moody and company prayed for the Spirit of God to fall upon them just as He did upon the Apostles in the upper room at Pentecost "Young men, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't kneel down here right now and ask God that the Holy Ghost may fall upon us just as definitely as He fell upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost.". From reading your posts it seems very clear that your belief is that at least some measure of power towards ministry is relayed to the saint through what you (and evidently Moody) have concluded is the Baptism of the Spirit. What you may or may not already know, since no real scriptural support for the position has been given yet, and so far you haven't expounded your position or shown any particular correction to the scriptural evidence given in support of Spirit baptism that has been discussed beforehand, is that the during the upper room experience of the Apostles they are described as "filled" with the Holy Spirit and thus empowered with the particular gift that God in His Sovereignty decided to give (Acts 2:4).

It's been noted by Jan51 that Spirit Baptism is not repeatable, and Jan51 also noted that there is no place in which we are commanded to seek Spirit Baptism or ask for it. But, we are exhorted to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). We've already discussed in this thread the different ways in which the ministries of the Holy Spirit God are distinctive from each other, and the filling of the Spirit falls right into line with another distinctive way in which God interacts with His children. So basically what I'm saying is that I believe Moody is confusing Spirit Baptism with being filled by, or controlled by the Holy Spirit. We can submit to being filled by the Holy Spirit, but the Baptism of the Spirit is something that happens to us upon belief.

I'm sure you've thought your position through... but so far you haven't given anyone on the thread much to go on (nor did Moody) for something that obviously, from the witness of Moody, is a really big deal.

PS. LightofmyLife, if you're reading this... now is the time to "Google" the filling of the Holy Spirit @ Got Questions.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

[lightofmylife]

Good morning,

Something that may be interesting to note is that Moody and company prayed for the Spirit of God to fall upon them just as He did upon the Apostles in the upper room at Pentecost "Young men, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't kneel down here right now and ask God that the Holy Ghost may fall upon us just as definitely as He fell upon the apostles on the Day of Pentecost.". From reading your posts it seems very clear that your belief is that at least some measure of power towards ministry is relayed to the saint through what you (and evidently Moody) have concluded is the Baptism of the Spirit. What you may or may not already know, since no real scriptural support for the position has been given yet, and so far you haven't expounded your position or shown any particular correction to the scriptural evidence given in support of Spirit baptism that has been discussed beforehand, is that the during the upper room experience of the Apostles they are described as "filled" with the Holy Spirit and thus empowered with the particular gift that God in His Sovereignty decided to give (Acts 2:4).

It's been noted by Jan51 that Spirit Baptism is not repeatable, and Jan51 also noted that there is no place in which we are commanded to seek Spirit Baptism or ask for it. But, we are exhorted to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). We've already discussed in this thread the different ways in which the ministries of the Holy Spirit God are distinctive from each other, and the filling of Spirit falls right into line with another distinctive way in which God interacts with His children. So basically what I'm saying is that I believe Moody is confusing Spirit Baptism with being filled by, or controlled by the Holy Spirit. We can submit to being filled by the Holy Spirit, but the Baptism of the Spirit is something that happens to us upon belief.

I'm sure you've thought your position through... but so far you haven't given anyone on the thread much to go on (nor did Moody) for something that obviously, from the witness of Moody, is a really big deal.

PS. LightofmyLife, if you're reading this... now is the time to "Google" the filling of the Holy Spirit @ Got Questions.

Kind regards,
Dave

By the way Dave I have seen that one too, but how about this one. Does Benny Hinn sound familiar? He hits people with his yellow jacket, and imagine this they fall down. My dad told me one time when he was a teenager he was in a church. They called them holy rollers. When they started rolling down the aisles he got out of that church quickly! https://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-slain.html

 

[Almost Heaven]

I do not see any scriptural evidence here that the baptism of the Holy Spirit follows sometime after salvation and must be sought. Pentecost was the initial giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit. This event cannot be duplicated. Nowhere does Paul indicate believers are to seek this baptism. He speaks of how all believers have it. Whatever experience these men had must be evaluated in the light of Scripture, not the other way around.

I agree with what Jan has posted...the difference is Calvary you can not compare the way the Holy Spirit was given and how it operated pre and post the Cross. Calvary changed everything! Change will happen again at the rapture of the Church.

 

[Almost Heaven]

I forgot to say I did not read the links. I do not care for the gotquestions website.

 

[DaveS]

By the way Dave I have seen that one too, but how about this one. Does Benny Hinn sound familiar. He hits people with his yellow jacket, and imagine this they fall down. My dad told me one time when he was a teenager he was in a church. They called them holy rollers. When they started rolling down the aisles he got out of that church quickly! https://www.gotquestions.org/Spirit-slain.html

I went to a church like that with a girl I was dating back in the 90's. The preacher was slaying everyone, people were dropping like flies. He touched my forehead and I didn't know what to do, I surely wasn't weak in the knees, so I just stood there and looked at him... I don't know who felt worse for who, me for him, because he couldn't find my faint button, or him for me, because obviously I wasn't black out material.

I think my girlfriend was disappointed in me though... it wasn't long after that she told me to hit the road.

 

[lightofmylife]

I went to a church like that with a girl I was dating back in the 90's. The preacher was slaying everyone, people were dropping like flies. He touched my forehead and I didn't know what to do, I surely wasn't weak in the knees, so I just stood there and looked at him... I don't know who felt worse for who, me for him, because he couldn't find my faint button, or him for me, because obviously I wasn't black out material.

I think my girlfriend was disappointed in me though... it wasn't long after that she told me to hit the road.

The people who were dropping like flies were faking it like the fake news we hear from the media. A church is to be done decently and in order.