Love His Appearing
Well-Known Member
I agree. Do you have any practical ideas of how to DO that? How do we truly yield to Him??
Baptism of the Holy Spirit
- Thread starter Salluz
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Saguaro
Have an Exit Strategy_ I Thessalonians iv 17
The Scriptures clearly teach that the one hundred and twenty on the day of Pentecost spoke in “Known languages”, and not in some unknown gibberish.
I’ve read that Mormons, the occult, the hierarchy in the German National Socialist
Party aka nazis practiced speaking in tongues, etc etc etc.
I would stay as far away from the unknown tongues as humanly possible!!
Simply a point of scriptural clarification
Saguaro
Have an Exit Strategy_ I Thessalonians iv 17
A primer on complete consecration to the Holy Ghost......... I Thessalonians v
12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Love His Appearing
Well-Known Member
Jan, you have been on RF even longer than me and I totally respect your opinion. I know this has come up from time to time. I remember hearing your story. Thank you for taking the time to share it again. I had a similar experience at church with people laying hands on me and praying for this gift. I came home from church that day with a praying injury cuz I was on my knees so long. hahahaha I know the gift is real and I know it is from the Lord. I'm not talking gibberish and weird laughing, but genuine prayer languages that are between you and the Lord. I think my mom speaks in Hebrew actually. I've heard her praying in the other room and she also once was praying for my son who kept getting recurring MRSA infections and had a bad one in his eye. He never had another after she prayed for him in her prayer language. It didnt start out that way, it was just that sincere it turned into it.
THAT SAID: I have come to the conclusion that it just isn't for everybody. The ladies in my church told me to just keep saying "hallelujah" over and over again until it turns into tongues and that just didnt feel right. Like I could somehow trick my tongue? Then the pastors wife told me to open my hands (They had been folded together as I was using them to support my body as I was kneeling at the altar hahah) She said "You can't receive a gift if your hands aren't open to receive it."
I cried all the way home from the service feeling like there was something wrong with me. I did actually FAKE IT once in junior high cuz every else was filled and I was embarrassed that I wasn't. But after that day in the front of the church with all those ladies praying and laying hands on me, I quit TRYING. If the Lord wants to bestow that gift upon me then I am open to it. I pray for it. I long for it. But like you, I know it has to come from HIM not me somehow tricking myself into it. Once I made sense out of that in my head, I turned on the music in my car and "Great is thy faithfulness" came on in full stereo (The Sara Groves version...BEAUTIFUL!!). After that I cried tears of joy instead of tears of inadequacy.
Now,,,all THAT said....What do you do with Acts 19:2? "He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost".
The word SINCE seems to imply it is separate from believing?? No??
Saguaro
Have an Exit Strategy_ I Thessalonians iv 17
On the right track:
Acts x
“39 “And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
What happened there ?
The scriptures plainly state:
Acts xv
“6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts,
bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
The gift of the Spirit is not the gift of tongues, IT IS the gift of power which equals purity OR heart purity
Hallelujah!
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Saguaro
Have an Exit Strategy_ I Thessalonians iv 17
don’t remember where this was gleaned from, the author said the byproduct of Pentecost was not so much a gift a some unknown tongue BUT the miracle of the gift of “hearing”, note how the Author of the Bible emphasizes the thought of hearing, rather than speaking..........
Acts ii
“6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Acts ii
“6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Jan51
Well-Known Member
What a deep question! Hmmm. Thinking back on my journey, here are some things. I would say, immerse yourself in the Word. Speak often with the Lord, not as in always asking Him to do something, but more thanking and recognizing what He is doing and has already done. Pray and meditate on the pattern of the Lord's prayer, especially "Thy" name, "Thy" kingdom, "Thy" will-- not mine. He must increase but I must decrease. Making choices to obey Him, to deny Self.
I saw this today on Facebook and it fits here. From The Berean Call:
It is a difficult and lifelong process for us to achieve submission and dependence. The greatest battle takes place in our mind. Romans 12:1-2 tells us to "present [our] bodies a living sacrifice...And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind." With this in mind, II Corinthians 10:4-5 tells us that "(the weapons of our warfare are not carnal [or fleshly], but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
casting down imaginations [or reasonings]...and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." The main battlefield is the human mind.--TBCProv. 3:5-6
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths.
I'm sure this only touches the surface!
Jan51
Well-Known Member
I apologize for the lengthy reply, but the passage you mention needs to be understood in context.
When the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers, they were baptized into (identified with, immersed in) the body of Christ; they are now one body--the church. In Acts 2:1-4, two interesting things happen: tongues of fire and speaking with other tongues--something all could see and hear. An inner unseen event was indicated by outward evidences. Otherwise, there was no objective evidence that this completely new experience had taken place.
We are told they were filled, not baptized, with the Holy Spirit, but we can know this is the baptism of the Holy Spirit because of Acts 1:5 and 11:15-16. Believers today do not need to wait like the Jerusalem believers for the baptism of the Holy Spirit; all believers are baptized with the Holy Spirit, I Cor. 12:13. Many believe our experience should be like that of Acts 2, but if we have been reading the whole Bible, we have seen that God is now doing a new thing; this is the start of a new dispensation, a new way of dealing with believers. Acts records a period of transition, and God is making it very clear to them that something different is beginning. Today we are no longer in that transition period. Christians are never told to be baptized in the Holy Spirit or told to pray for it or seek it. It has nothing to do with us. We read that the Holy Spirit baptizes all believers, I Cor. 12:13, seals them, Eph. 1:13-14, and indwells them, Rom. 8:9; this happens the moment we are saved.
So when these believers were filled with the Holy Spirit, why did they speak in other languages? The early believers were all Jewish. We find as we read through Acts that God extends salvation to the Gentiles also; the Jews had trouble believing that this could be. The Jews experienced certain outward evidences of the Holy Spirit; when Gentiles were saved and experienced these same things, the Jewish believers could not argue. The account of this major development is found in Acts 10. To see how controversial this issue was, read Acts 11:1-18. If God had not provided some external evidence of salvation and the receiving of the Holy Spirit, Jewish believers might have refused to accept the validity of Gentile salvation. But they saw for themselves that God was also saving Gentiles. Because this is not our culture, we have trouble understanding what a big deal this was in the early church. In almost every epistle, we find evidence of this conflict that always threatened to divide the church.
In Acts 8:14-17, something new happens. The Samaritans were of Jewish descent and belief but were looked down on by the Jews. The Holy Spirit had already fallen on the Jewish believers. Now these were saved under the ministry of Philip, who was not an apostle. The apostles wanted to be clear that God was saving Samaritans too, not just Jews. They welcomed the Samaritans into the church. When they laid their hands on believers and prayed, something happened to let others know that these had received the Holy Spirit--apparently the sign of tongues. God had provided an attesting outward sign to show that something inward had taken place. The purpose of speaking in tongues was to be a sign.
In Acts 10-11, we have a major doctrinal change for the church. Peter is surprised in 10:34-35 about a fact that we all understand and accept--that salvation is for all nations, not just Jews. Why did God have to go to such lengths to teach Peter this? Jews thought God did not accept Gentiles unless they converted to Judaism. It’s hard for us to comprehend the loathing the Jews felt toward Gentiles, or the astonishment Peter must have felt. The Mosaic Law forbade them to even enter the house of a Gentile or to eat with Gentiles, because Gentiles were unclean before God. This was a very big deal to Jews.
In 10:44-48 we see that the purpose of tongues is an outward sign of the invisible Holy Spirit. In Acts 2 Jewish believers spoke in tongues as a sign that they had received the Holy Spirit. In 8:14-17 Samaritan believers received the Holy Spirit and apparently spoke in tongues as a sign that this took place; it doesn’t specifically say they spoke in tongues, but we might assume this since something happened that made it obvious that believers had received the Holy Spirit. Now Gentile believers speak in tongues as a sign that they too received the Holy Spirit. God is making it VERY clear that Gentiles can also be saved, in the same manner as Jews. In 11:15, we are again told the reason for a sign of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
There is one more such incident in 19:1-7. These disciples in Ephesus have heard an incomplete message; apparently they heard and responded to the preaching of John the Baptist, or perhaps his message through Apollos. They haven't received the Holy Spirit. This can't mean they haven't heard of Him, since John DID preach about Him; many commentators say this means they haven't so much as heard whether He has been GIVEN--whether He is now on the earth. So they were believers in the same way Old Testament believers were saved--accepting and looking ahead in faith to the Messiah to come. Paul tells them who that One is--Jesus. They obviously believe, and in 19:5-6 the Holy Spirit comes on them--baptizes them--in a way that is obvious: tongues and prophesying. Here we also have another instance of laying on of hands. This is apparently why some groups lay hands on those they are praying for that they may speak in tongues, associating the two and thinking that all Christians should speak in tongues. But we need to analyze what we have read about tongues in the book of Acts.
Tongues are only mentioned three times in this book, in three significant situations: 2:4 when Jewish believers first receive the Holy Spirit, 10:46 when Gentile believers first receive the Holy Spirit, and 19:6 when Old Testament believers believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. They are implied but not mentioned specifically in 8:17-18 when Samaritan believers receive the Holy Spirit. God gave tongues as a sign of the initial giving of the Holy Spirit so that there could be no dispute that each of these groups just mentioned were all equally saved and part of the church. The only other mention of tongues is in I Cor. 12-14 where Paul corrects the misuse of spiritual gifts by the quarreling, immature, carnal Christians at Corinth. No mention of tongues is found in letters to other churches, nor does Paul teach about or command this to any other church. After studying tongues in the context of Acts and the entire New Testament, it is a big leap to say that tongues accompanies salvation, as some teach. Rather it seems to be given in a time of transition from Judaism to its fulfillment in Christianity. God is making it clear to the Jews that salvation is equally available to all people.
We find that the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, that allowing the Holy Spirit to fill you, was for the purpose of speaking the Word with boldness. Paul says he speaks with tongues more than all of them--why? and that he wished they all did--why? Because that gift allowed him to preach the gospel to many, and those who had that gift were also able to bring the Word to many more of other language groups.
Love His Appearing
Well-Known Member
THANK YOU SO MUCH for your thoughtful and detailed reply. It really does make sense, and I can tell there was much study involved. I really do appreciate it.
I am not suggesting that tongues accompanies salvation, nor was it ever taught to me that way, thankfully. But I still wonder if there isn't a second blessing involved completely separate from salvation.
"Before His death, Jesus promised His disciples that He would not leave them as orphans. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever" (John 14:16). This "Comforter," Jesus said, would guide the disciples into "all truth" (16:13). The Greek word parakletos is rendered "Comforter" in the King James Version, "Helper" and "Counselor" in modern English versions. The term denotes the Helper or Counselor who is always there to give special care in times of need.
But the Holy Spirit is more than a Comforter, Helper, and Counselor. The Spirit is also an Advocate and an Encourager. From this we can clearly see and understand that the Holy Spirit is the representative of the Son Jesus Christ, even as the Son was the representative of God the Father. God in three persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The expression "another Counselor" means "another counselor of the same kind as the first." This signifies that Jesus was the first Counselor (see 1 John 2:1), and that the Spirit would be the same kind of Counselor. Therefore, even though Jesus is not here in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is here and is our constant companion to guide, help, and empower every convert of Christ for the tasks ahead. Jesus identified this wonderful Counselor as the source that leads into all truth, for it is the Spirit that reveals the truth about God. "
Please note, I am NOT AT ALL suggesting this a salvation issue. It is not. Ephesians 1:3 says that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. I find great comfort in that. ALL means ALL. I just want EVERYTHING the Lord has for me. All of it. Anything and everything...If God has it for me, I want it. And I know full well that I am in good company here at RF with like-minded saints who are also seeking God's best.
Thoughts?
I am not suggesting that tongues accompanies salvation, nor was it ever taught to me that way, thankfully. But I still wonder if there isn't a second blessing involved completely separate from salvation.
So, you don't think the purpose of speaking in tongues could STILL be a sign that you have been filled with the spirit? Not sealed. Not saved. But filled. A separate blessing that fills one with comfort, joy, power in witness, knowledge and truth? I know so many people, some right here on RF, and many solid, respected bible teachers who have spoken in tongues. There is simply NO WAY they have been faking it or making it up.
But why did this cease, do you think? Could that not still be true today? I didn't write the following and I don't know who did, but it kind of explains what I am trying to say...
"Before His death, Jesus promised His disciples that He would not leave them as orphans. "And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever" (John 14:16). This "Comforter," Jesus said, would guide the disciples into "all truth" (16:13). The Greek word parakletos is rendered "Comforter" in the King James Version, "Helper" and "Counselor" in modern English versions. The term denotes the Helper or Counselor who is always there to give special care in times of need.
But the Holy Spirit is more than a Comforter, Helper, and Counselor. The Spirit is also an Advocate and an Encourager. From this we can clearly see and understand that the Holy Spirit is the representative of the Son Jesus Christ, even as the Son was the representative of God the Father. God in three persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
The expression "another Counselor" means "another counselor of the same kind as the first." This signifies that Jesus was the first Counselor (see 1 John 2:1), and that the Spirit would be the same kind of Counselor. Therefore, even though Jesus is not here in the flesh, the Holy Spirit is here and is our constant companion to guide, help, and empower every convert of Christ for the tasks ahead. Jesus identified this wonderful Counselor as the source that leads into all truth, for it is the Spirit that reveals the truth about God. "
Please note, I am NOT AT ALL suggesting this a salvation issue. It is not. Ephesians 1:3 says that the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ. I find great comfort in that. ALL means ALL. I just want EVERYTHING the Lord has for me. All of it. Anything and everything...If God has it for me, I want it. And I know full well that I am in good company here at RF with like-minded saints who are also seeking God's best.
Thoughts?
Love His Appearing
Well-Known Member
One more question....Paul's ministry came after Jesus resurrection. SO when exactly was the transition period, do you think? The Holy Spirit first came on Pentecost. Jesus Himself says that he must go away for the comforter to come. SO the transition was after Jesus' death but before Pentecost? I'm so confused.
*Please don't say that God is not the author of confusion. Once I make peace with these things in my heart, I am able to put them to rest and move on to the next big question (of which there are many, it seems. The more I learn, the more I know I don't know).
Don't you just LOVE that about the WORD? Layer upon layer upon layer. Really and truly...thank you for helping me through this. I've been shut down a few times for my questions, so I am sometimes afraid to ask them.
Jan51
Well-Known Member
I appreciate everything you said here. Yes, I know many who speak in tongues, but my criteria for what I believe is what I find in Scripture, not mine or anyone's experiences. The quote you included is true indeed. But I don't see that it has any bearing on tongues? I too have always felt that I wanted everything God has for me, which is why I did seek tongues. I do know that it is also known as glossalalia or ecstatic speech and commonly happens to Mormans and pagans, which makes me wonder what is going on. I also wonder, if it is real, why God would give the gift of a language to people who don't need to speak or witness in another language, yet missionaries must go to language school--even missionaries who speak in tongues. I don't have all the answers about it, that's for sure. And I agree completely that it is not a salvation issue.
Other than the initial mention of being filled with the Spirit in Acts 2, the other mentions speak of the power of God filling them to speak of Him, not some special experience. The Spirit indwells us with power, to empower us to serve Him. Eph. 5 tells us we are not to be controlled by wine but by contrast, are to be filled with--controlled by-- the Spirit. Again, I don't see that as any special experience, but being yielded completely to Him.
I know there are many views in this subject. You have a very sweet spirit.
Jan51
Well-Known Member
Yes, the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost--that is the birthday of the church! Jesus had to leave first because His physical presence and His presence through the indwelling Holy Spirit do not overlap. Acts is a book of history, not doctrine. It records things that happened as God's plan transitioned from the dispensation of law to the dispensation of grace--the church age. It records the transition of the church from only Jewish at the start, to the bringing in of Gentiles. God's plan now includes both Jews and Gentiles on an equal basis.One more question....Paul's ministry came after Jesus resurrection. SO when exactly was the transition period, do you think? The Holy Spirit first came on Pentecost. Jesus Himself says that he must go away for the comforter to come. SO the transition was after Jesus' death but before Pentecost? I'm so confused.
*Please don't say that God is not the author of confusion. Once I make peace with these things in my heart, I am able to put them to rest and move on to the next big question (of which there are many, it seems. The more I learn, the more I know I don't know).
Really and truly...thank you for helping me through this. I've been shut down a few times for my questions, so I am sometimes afraid to ask them.
You are right about the layers of God's Word! Yes, the more we learn, the more we realize how much more there is still. I'm glad I could help a little. My whole life has been about asking questions, and there wasn't always someone to ask. Asking questions helps us learn--don't feel bad!