Babylon the great

Hi! I'm going to apologise in advance if I don't answer the questions you posted in the manner you'd prefer (It seems English might not be your native language, so I might misinterpret what you meant, or perhaps might not be as knowledgeable as you'd prefer) Anyway, I am one of those who have read several different views of who Mystery Babylon is and tend to lean towards literal Babylon, but that other cities (Jerusalem included) have interesting arguments for their side.

Okay, first, I agree with you Breath of Life that God's focus in the last days is going to be Israel and the Jewish people. The AntiChrist is accepted as the Jewish Messiah, so there's a good reason to believe he is at least partially Jewish (in ancestry, not necessarily nationally). Daniel 11:37 says he won't regard the God of his fathers, so that seems to make him ancestrally Jewish. But he heads a revived Roman empire and is said to come "from the sea", which represents "the nations".

Regardless, you asked:
1)how Israel got so wealthy when buying and selling requires the mark of the Beast... My answer is multi-fold. First, some (many?) take the mark. Second, Israel has a whole lot of potential wealth now, so why can't it be referring to this plus the wealth made before the AntiChrist requires the mark (he doesn't do that immediately). Finally, I did read the above Isiah passage and think there's a good case to be made that it refers to the dispersion of Jews in 70 AD.
2)
But let's go with the idea that this DOES mean the end times. Perhaps the beaking of Israel into Judah and Israel refers to dividing the land between Jewish Israel and Palestinians. There's another verse (I can't recall where) that seems to indicate The AntiChrist will spare the modern country of Jordon, so perhaps that has something to do with this passage as well?

3) The 70th week is still to be fulfilled. It hasn't started yet. Israel hasn't declared they've found a Messiah. They haven't singed a treaty with "many" (aka the covenant with death). And the church has not yet been Raptured. During the 70th week, God's focus is on Jews, although there will still be gentiles who come to trust in Jesus.

4) Ninivah was declared a harlot by God. As was another Gentile city...I can't remember which one though. Tarshish, maybe? As for a "Bride", Israel, Jerusalem, and the Church are all called the Bride at various times in scripture.

5) No idea?

Hope this helps rather than adding to confusion.
not counting the beginning of your text this was something you can have a discussion with. But what makes you so hateful? Seas also represent death. Israel went down into the Red Sea and it was likened to baptism.

1) yes some take the mark and those that don't will be the faithful Remnant. Remnant hinting at a larger portion that does take the mark. Isaiah makes it clear in the prophecy that this is going to unusual wealth. You are welcome to claim they got in any manner but you cannot prove that any more than I can claim they took the mark with unerring accuracy. If you can get 70 AD out of Isaiah's prophecy I believe you just don't want to see that Christ has returned in all His splendor and glory and that is something that has never happened. By the way how many years passed between the crucifixion and the events of 70 AD? The rest of Isaiah 1- 5 is the entire prophecy but don't short the rest of Isaiah because the reason given for this happening to them is in Is. 53.

2) did you actually read the passage of Favor and Union? From your response I would have to bet you didn't He breaks the staff called Favor which He had with the Gentile nations not to destroy Israel until her appointed time. That time according to Moses is when she commits the ultimate harlotry taking anti- Christ as Her God. De. 32 tells how she rejects the Rock, who Paul identifies as Christ, for another
rock with a lowercase r. This is anti-Christ who will be accepted by the apostate portion of Israel when she shows herself to be the Harlot she has always been. Have you gone to Re. 11 and heard the great city where the Lord was slain is spiritually Sodom and Egypt and when you move on you read of the winepress outside the great city which is where the Lord made His winepress. All these things point to Daniel's people and city and when she is seen in Re. 17 she is said to be spiritually Babylon. Where did you find the scriptural support for changing her to an apostate Gentile anything other than apostate Israel?

3)the church has not yet been raptured is true and must take place before anti-Christ is not revealed. Since God is omni everything He deals with the entire world all at once. But you can look at the pattern He does not have Israel and the Gentiles on the, railroad track, at the same time. When He is dealing with Israel the Church and Gentiles are as if they are on a side track and the opposite is true when He is dealing with the Church or other Gentile entity. The things you mention re all things that take place when Israel once again is on the main track and the prophetic clock begins ticking again. That clock does not run when the Gentiles are being dealt with. Gentiles coming to belief has nothing to do with the prophetic events with and for Israel. But yes there will be Jews and Gentiles who will come to belief in that time. Only the Jewish remnant is persecuted and saved by the Lord's return to the Mount of Olives.

4) Hosea 4: 14 Re. 17. are both Israel as Harlot. I need to check once I send this off. I can't believe that any city of the Gentiles is a harlot who was wed to God and then sought other Gods but I ask your indulgence while I check. thanks.

5) how many of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the End Times are you familiar with? I don't want this to sound rough but if they are like Isaiah you are missing all that buttresses the things I am relating to you. If you move the things you are claiming a thousand years after the return of the Lord you have the prophecy going in the right direction because that is when Gog and Magog "The nations" Gentiles is dealt with and not before.


you are knowledgeable and i enjoy testing these things against you. but i am not sure if it is just me who brings that edge out of you or are we all blest with some. i pray that your words, and mine, will be seasoned with salt during our time on this journey
 
Sorry, I'm not referring to you, anyone in particular, or to the matter of Babylon. I'm referring to the Bible reading method that I use, which is literal interpretation unless it's obviously not (based on context). And I'm stating why that Bible reading method is sound, which is: if we interpret the Bible figuratively when there's no cause to, we can make it say anything we want. My point in stating that was to give the reason why I think Babylon literally means Babylon. It wasn't a slight at anyone; it was just an explanation of my stance on the matter. :)

1. Sorry, I don't understand your point. We already know Israel is in judgment, so I don't see how this is an argument that Jerusalem is Babylon.

2. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

3. Yes it's waiting to be fulfilled, and it is about Israel. However, that doesn't exclude the world. Scripture makes it clear that judgment is poured out on all nations during the tribulation, not just Israel. That would include all cities, not just Jerusalem.

It's worth noting, that each mention of "great city" in Revelation is defined within its context. Not every instance is Jerusalem.

4. Israel is Israel, not Babylon; so I don't see how this is relevant to Babylon. Yes, they're both likened to harlots, but that doesn't mean Jerusalem is Babylon. It simply means they're both like harlots.

5. I keep reading Amos and see that, in context, it means God is exhorting Israel to return to Him.
I agree with you the types can and have been misused. But so has literal interpretation been misused. Scripture can be ambiguous precisely because we are under Grace and it leaves that space that Law doesn't for mature believers to seek its meaning where Law is this happened do that. If any book was screaming out to be looked at figuratively it is the Revelation. She is just like an Old Testament Book because it is this is when Israel is back on the main track and it is all about her after chapter 4 where we see the church raptured enter through The Door, Christ. I am not against you but you don't know that we just met. But I think if we are able to continue speaking on Scripture you will find I am pretty well grounded on what Scripture reveals to us in all areas. I think I will find the same is true with you.
 
While the prophecy of the 70 weeks was given to Daniel regarding his people, it is clear that the 70th week--the tribulation--is spoken of in various places in the Bible and all those passages must be considered and taken together to get a correct view. The purpose of the tribulation is two-fold: to purify Israel and bring her to recognize her Messiah, AND to pour out God's wrath on evil, on unbelieving man of that generation, on all nations (the Gentiles).
hi, jan51, what a nice text. I agree with you but there is a distinction between the Tribulation and the Great Day o The Tribulation also known as The Time of Jacob's trouble takes place in the Last Week of years on the Day of the Lord His physical return. The Great and Terrible Day of God's wrath. Takes place at the end of the 1,000 years. Remember Judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. The Jewish remnant is saved when Christ returns to the Mount of Olives and the mount splits in two opening an escape through the valley formed by the split. Kind of like the Red Sea but with a mountain this time. BTW when the mount splits it will cause the earthquake that kills 7,000 people. What happens here is incredible if you would like to hear it, don't want to force anything on anybody. thanks. God bless.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
there is a distinction between the Tribulation and the Great Day o The Tribulation also known as The Time of Jacob's trouble takes place in the Last Week of years on the Day of the Lord His physical return. The Great and Terrible Day of God's wrath. Takes place at the end of the 1,000 years.
I know of no one on this board or any commentator that would agree with you. Rev. 20 makes it clear that the event at the end of the 1000 years is the great white throne judgment. The great and terrible day of the Lord = the day of the Lord = the tribulation = the time of Jacob's trouble = Daniel's 70th week = the day of wrath. The Lord returns at the end of that seven year period.
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the consensus here is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble, Daniel's 70th week, etc are all referring to the entire 7 year tribulation time frame rather than just the latter half. I'd have to agree that after examining the various views of this that this view seems to hold the greatest weight of scriptural evidence. There are a ton of posts about that though so I'm not going to reinvent the wheel by restating those arguments here.
 
Hi, I. Am in full agreement that the time of Jacob’s Trouble, 70thand the Tribulation are all the same. The great day of God’s wrath happens at the end of the1 1,000 year millennial reign.
I know of no one on this board or any commentator that would agree with you. Rev. 20 makes it clear that the event at the end of the 1000 years is the great white throne judgment. The great and terrible day of the Lord = the day of the Lord = the tribulation = the time of Jacob's trouble = Daniel's 70th week = the day of wrath. The Lord returns at the end of that seven year period.
Jan you may need to broaden you commentators. Who are some that you use if you don’t mind. One of my favorites is j. Sidlow baxter
 
Still would like to know who is being used. I have never known so many people reluctant to reveal who they study

Haratio bonar

Anybody by anyone. Please, thanks.
 

ShilohRose

Well-Known Member
You can find Andy Woods on YouTube. His sermons are also available at Sugarland Bible Church, which has a website. C.I. Scofield was the editor of the Scofield Bible. Hal Lindsey is well known for one of his books, The Late, Great Planet Earth, and he also has a website. Clarence Larkin wrote and illustrated Dispensational Truth.
There are a lot of excellent teachers on the forums and also at RaptureReady.com.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Regarding J. Sidlow Baxter and Horatio Bonar, I have never heard of them, but a bit of snooping indicates they are associated with Spurgeon's views, whose endtimes views are not accepted on this forum. Here, we hold to the literal/historical/grammatical dispensational interpretation. We do not accept Calvinism/Covenental.

I would add to the above-mentioned Bible commentators, J. Vernon McGee, Louis Sperry Chafer, Thomas Constable, Henry Morris, anyone associated with Friends of Israel and Spirit and Truth ministries.
 
apostate Israel will split into two Kingdoms Zec. 11
False Prophet makes himself known doing lying sign and wonders. Rumor has it he is the prophet Elijah come to prepare the way.
False Elijah will bring fire down from heaven
anti-Christ is said to come as lightening and this is the fire from heaven that false Elijah will bring down
Fire from heaven confirms this is Elijah and the one who came as the fire is the one who rightfully owns the throne.
Fire from heaven a must because no strange fire allowed by order of God.
The beginning of Daniel's 70th Week of Years.
Seven years from this date the Lord will return on what is The Day of the Lord.
anti-Christ who 3 1/2 years in shows the Lamb he counterfeits is actual a ravenous beast.
anti-Christ when he came up out of the Bottomless Pit came with all his angels just as Christ when He returns is coming with all His angels.
The splitting of Israel into two kingdoms again is very important. The Northern Kingdom, Israel, has ten tribes. We are told 3 of their leaders are plucked up leaving the harlot 7 heads and 10 crowns to ride on the scarlet beast anti-Christ.
Anti-Christ destroys apostate Israel and turns his attention to what is called a faithful remnant.
The remnant trapped in Jerusalem is on the verge of being wiped out when the Lord returns to the Mount of Olives
The mount splits in two forming a valley for escaping. This reminds of the Red Sea only this time with rock. The Remnant escapes.
The Lord having returned as Lightening defeats anti-Christ, false Elijah and their fallen angel army with the splendor of his coming.
After this there is no feast of the birds of the air because A,C., false Elijah and their army are cast into Lake of Fire
Satan comes down from haven in chains and locked in the same Bottomless pit anti-Christ was in before he was released.
For 1,000 years there will be no evil influencing men and they will reveal we are sin and not just sin being what we do.
After the 1,000 years are done Satan is let out but no fallen angel army for him.
Satan goes out and deceives the nations, the Gentile nations who are Gog and Magog
Satan leads the Gentile armies against what will be the Millennial Temple at Jerusalem
They will meet the Lord at Har Megiddo the Lord defeats Satan who is thrown into the Lake of Fire where anti-Christ and the false prophet have been locked for a thousand years.
This is when the Great and Awful Day of the Lord's Wrath takes place. Judgment first to the Jew and then the Gentile.
The Great White Throne Judgment is set up and all men stand before the Lord.
Those not written in the Book of Life are referred to as goats and thrown into the Lake of Fire.
the righteous have the works they have done in life tested by the fire some suffering loss of reward but not salvation.
The new heaven and earth come down the old sin filled creation destroyed.
After this the New Jerusalem and the Bride come down and the Bride has made herself ready. Ready for what?
Lord spoke the night of the Passover that He would eat it again when it was fulfilled in heaven.
The feast that will be eaten in heaven that fulfills the Passover is The Wedding Supper of the Lamb.

How much of this besides taking a Jewish understanding to fill in some of the blanks left by Gentile commentators. I study both people from your commentators and a wide spectrum of teachers. No charismatic, word of faith or things like that. I submit to you that your people may not be so literal, grammatical etc as you think. I ask when the first 5 chapters take place. It shows the Lord having returned in Splendor and your people make up excuses for why it cannot be His Return. Why did they do this? Because Isaiah 1-5 clashes with their literal understanding of who the harlot mystery Babylon is. They are convinced it is a Gentile city even though the literal reading of Daniel's 70 Weeks says from beginning to end has as its cast of players an Israel so apostate she cannot get any more apostate. Filled with idols, false worship. riches, military power and this when the Lord has come for all to see on the Day of the Lord. Is it wrong to ask why did anti-Christ let Israel be the exception to needing the mark of the Beast. No it isn't because the only logical answer is he didn't waive the mark requirement.

The harlot is not just any harlot. Like there being two Bethlehem's the one identified by name is the one the Lord must be born in and was. So this harlot is not identified just as a harlot but as being the mother of Harlots, Oholah aand her sister Oholabah, spelled wrong no Bible handy. Sorry. Its as if your folks have no conception that the prophecies from the O.T. about the Day of the Lord are not even in the Bible.

I am not seeking to knock your people or lift myself up. I know and I only hope to reach the standard the Lord uses for those He chooses to do certain tasks being "the weak and foolish" things of this world. I came on board because I found the degree with which the end times was discussed would be good for me to put what I believe I have been shown to test against those who could honestly look at it and test it for me. I realize there are those in every branch of Christianity who are threatened and act in a regretful manner and that was how some of your people reacted. But when we are able to put this animosity aside they are quite nice and passionate for and about the Lord. I didn't even know Spurgeon has an end times teaching. I know J. Vernon McGee's end times teaching as well as a number f the other commentators listed. I would like it if you would do me a favor and read what I have sent you and tell me how different it really is from your end times understanding. I will be leaving the board right after that. It is not something I would choose to do but I do not want to be a pebble in any ones walk through this world. thanks and God bless.
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Sowen

Well-Known Member
I submit to you that your people may not be so literal, grammatical etc as you think. I ask when the first 5 chapters take place. It shows the Lord having returned in Splendor and your people make up excuses for why it cannot be His Return. Why did they do this? Because Isaiah 1-5 clashes with their literal understanding of who the harlot mystery Babylon is.
I think you're bringing in a lot of baggage from discussions you've had elsewhere because I've seen no one here say what you claim they've said.

As for the literal method of interpretation, that does not mean what you think it means. It simply means literal unless obviously not literal. The determining factor between literal and figurative is context - it's not a Bible teacher, not a commentary, not our own personal opinions, but the context of Scripture. The Bible isn't a complicated tangle of figures of speech that we must decipher. It's pretty straightforward if one simply allows the text to say what it says.

As for your interpretation of endtimes, I can see now why I was so confused by your posts. We're not on the same page with the basics.
 
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