Babylon the great

ItIsFinished!

Blood bought child of the King of kings.
Thanks for posting this. I am in the middle of reading Woods paper, and Rhode's New book in which he states Babylon will be rebuilt. I have read Dr. Reagan's work as well as Hindson's, and Dyer's. All great Premillennial scholars but being opposed on the topics. When I have completed Ron Rhodes book and Wood's paper, I will post a synopsis (and not a lengthy one). :) As I stand currently, and I have not budged, I do not believe that ancient Babylon will be rebuilt. I do believe the harlot of Rev. 17 is a centuries old corrupt religious system that is connected to the commercial/political Babylon of Rev. 18. I believe the False Prophet will come out of Rome and be used by the beast AC as his evangelist in getting the world to come onboard with his beast financial and political system (including worship and allegiance to AC (Satan incarnate)). I then believe that once he (Satan) is done with her, he will turn and destroy her. The False Prophet is needed by the beast. Only Roman Catholicism and a pope like Frannie, who is ecumenical and universal in his theology, has the clout to persuade billions of people worldwide. We must remember, he has gained support of Atheists, LGBTQ, Islamacists, and his own Catholics. the numbers add up into the billions. A person with that much clout and outreach is surely to used by the Enemy of God, mankind, and believers. His promises are nothing more than a puff of smoke to be carried off by the wind. Again once AC is finished with her, he will turn on her. I believe the FP's HQ is Rome but the AC's remains to be seen. But there will be a connection of sorts, i.e., they feed on each other just like Satan eats his own (figuratively speaking).

15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Re 17:15–17.
Good post brother.

Much love in Christ.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
I can tell you how Dyers book "Clash of Kingdoms" handles this. He equates Rev. 17 and 18 as the same system. He states that there is no spiritual aspect to Rev. 17 and that it is only economic (i.e., no religious aspect). The prostitute of Rev. 17 is rich and adorned with jewels and that these are the same things as the cargoes in Rev 18. That she is the woman (wickedness) of Zech 5:5-11, and the city is the rebuilt Babylon in the desert. The city becomes the envy of the world and all the worlds merchants trade with her because the rest of the world is in dire straights. She has power over the AC because she rides the beast. Europe has lost its oil supply (25% of it comes from Russia) and Russia has been destroyed. So the city in the desert becomes rich with oil and imports all the worlds riches, thus the power. The AC who rules over the Ten nations of the Revived Roman Empire which is his war machine, becomes jealous of the city and its popularity, and turns on the Babylon of the desert and burns her with fire and takes her riches and destroys her

In order to come up with this scenario, he has to say Babylon has never really been completely uninhabited. He uses passages from Isa 13-14 and Jer 49-51 to back up his point that she will be destroyed completely but only in the last days. Proof that she was never destroyed is that Daniel lived there and not all Jewish people returned after the exile. However, he ignores and skips over much of Rev 17 that could be shown to support the religious nature of the harlot/city. Also ignored is that it is God who judges the endtime Babylon not the AC according to Rev 18:8. He also cannot find a prominent place for the second beast of Rev. 13. It is mentioned once but only as a a promoter of AC, the image of the beast, and the worship of him, which is true, but only given one short paragraph, so not a major player in the book. The title false prophet is not in the book. There is a lot I have written on this that I was going to post, but decided not to because of the length, In short, I was not convinced by his arguments for a rebuilt city in the Desert. I think Zech 5:5-11 is stretched a bit. But there are some good points he makes. All-in-all, I think Dyer is a good theologian, but on this issue, he shifts away from most premillennialists of the past and present.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Follow up. I just started Ron Rhodes new book "New Babylon Rising." I am 1/3rd through it and so far, I am happy to say that concerning the traditional thought on how things unfold during the coming tribulation and the "New Babylon" as he calls it, having both a religious and commercial facet to it, we would all agree. I say that based upon many threads posted on the forum and our general biblical consensus. He has spent quite some time in the first 1/3rd of the book on religious Babylon and her influence in the world. Like Dyer above, he does use the word "control" in reference to the religious Babylon having power over the AC for a time. This is due to the woman ( prostitute) riding the beast. Personally, I do not see it so much as control, though in a way I suppose it is, but rather popularity and sway over the masses of people she rises up among. This power, sway, and influence is something that is advantageous only because it has been a buildup over many centuries even millennia in a false religious sysem--one that is universalist and ecumenical in every way. The AC wants this power and needs it to control the masses. He will use the religious system to get that power, then when he has it, he and his 10 kingdoms will turn on her and destroy her. From Rev 13 and 17 I think we could all agree.

He does say the the AC HQ will be Jerusalem at the midpoint of Tribulation because of His Image and proclamation to be god. But he also keeps using Jer. 50-51 compared with Rev 17-18 (many similarities) to say the New Babylon is on the Euphrates river. Dyer does this as well. However, that is only found in OT and the Euphrates river in the context of Rev 17 and 18 is not mentioned. So because other similarities exist between those chapters he reckons that "New Babylon" must be on the Euphrates. That, in my opinion, is not necessarily true, but it is a valid thought, but disputable based on other prophecies using a "near" (context of the days and times current to the prophet) and "far" (future fulfillment/time) hermeneutic. In prophecy, a distinguishment has to be made between which details apply to past and which to the future.

As I continue to read, more to come.

Now to the rest of the book....
 
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mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
I wanted to now add what brother Rhodes states verbatim concerning his reasoning behind a "New Babylon" in Iraq. You be the judge.

"The Feasibility of a Rebuilt Babylon How is it feasible that Babylon will be rebuilt during the end times? To this question, I can offer several observations.

First and foremost, recall that when the late Saddam Hussein was in power, he spent more than one billion dollars in oil money to enhance the city of Babylon. In his case, a billion dollars accomplished the revival of the city in rather rapid fashion.

Second, when the antichrist comes into power during the tribulation period, he will have access not only to unlimited funding, but to an unlimited work force. What the antichrist wants, the antichrist will get. He will make Hussein’s efforts seem like child’s play.

Third, it is quite possible that the oil in Iraq will be the primary source of funds for the rebuilding of Babylon. It seems that an oil-rich Iraq is part of God’s blueprint for the end times. As one commentator put it, “It’s no accident that Babylon is in Iraq, a nation with such staggering oil reserves. God said that Babylon will be rebuilt as a great commercial center in the end times.”

Babylon’s appeal to the antichrist may relate to the city’s prime location— it is in close proximity to other oil-rich nations, such as Iran, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. As prophecy commentator Nathan Jones says, “It would be very smart to have a capital in the oil fields where you can defend it well.” The antichrist will be able to control immense wealth and power— up to two-thirds of the remaining oil on the planet. It is hard to think of a better place to establish an economic and commercial center.

Other countries of the world, such as China, may find it difficult to control their lust for the oil treasures associated with this global center. Could it be that China— the kings of the East (Revelation 16: 12)— will engage in a direct challenge to the authority of the antichrist, who— headquartered in Babylon at this time— will be in control of the world’s oil supply in the Middle East? This control of the world’s oil supply will make it easy for him to choke off any nation he chooses. It may be that China will become desperate for fuel and will have no other choice but to move against the Satan-inspired oil czar who rules Babylon.

Whether or not this happens, the antichrist will have the power and resources to easily rebuild Babylon in a quick, efficient manner. It’s on the horizon."

Rhodes, Ron. New Babylon Rising: The Emerging End Times World Order (Kindle Locations 1495-1517). Harvest House Publishers. Kindle Edition.
 
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Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon on Revelation (chapter 14 from verse 8) and he has started to mention Babylon, it's so interesting where he mentions the commonly held view that chapter 17 is seen as a separate Babylon from chapter 18... That a common view is chapter 17 is a religious system and chapter 18 is a commercial city or system... He reckons both chapters 17 and 18 describe a single literal city of Babylon which will be rebuilt... And to look at the way "City" is used as a literal word in both chapters 17 and 18... Even the last verse of 17 interprets Babylon as the great city, literal...

Woods reckons chapter 17 highlights the religious side of the city, and 18 highlights the commercial side of the city, and that the city itself is, for example, like the Vatican which is both a literal place and HQ of a religious system. The literal city Babylon will be destroyed in bowl judgement number 7...

Very very interesting...

Hi, my understanding is the key is in Daniel’s 70th Week. The prophecy we are told concerns Daniel’s people and city, Jerusalem. This I believe is confirmed a number of ways a few I will list here not to run on too long.

In Isaiah 1-5 we are shown Israel when the Lord comes to judge that city and people in fulfillment of the 70th week.
Twice in Isaiah 1-5 Jerusalem is shown spiritual condition is no different than two of God’s people biggest enemies where she played the Harlot. In the Revelation her final spiritual condition mystery Babylon is revealed.
In Revelation the great city is said to be where their Lord was crucified and that we know was Jerusalem and between that identification and the great city of re. 17 the identity is never changed
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Hello Breath of Life. Upfront, I want to let you know, I am not an advocate of the Babylon in the desert or “New Babylon” viewpoint. I also see Jerusalem as having a huge role in the last days, but I have not come to the conclusion that it is Babylon of Rev. 17 or 18 either. My viewpoint will be added to this thread in the near future. My conclusion will just be one of the many. I am still mulling over what I have always believed in light of this explosion of authors stating Babylon will be rebuilt in the last days.

Now to your point, Rev. 11:8 is the passage you are talking about concerning Jerusalem. All of the authors I have read who believe a literal Babylon in the desert that becomes the head of all the world trade and commerce, do discuss Jerusalem as a possibility for the city. But they argue against it. Here is a sample. Ron Rhodes takes great pains to show in Revelation that Jerusalem is God’s city while “New Babylon” ("New" is his term, not found in the Bible in connection with Babylon), is a demonic city. “while Jerusalem is portrayed as God’s city (Revelation 21: 2-3), Babylon is portrayed as a demonic city (18: 2).”1

He also states this:
”The United States of Europe— the revived Roman Empire that will be headed by the antichrist— will initially be the political and economic superpower during the tribulation (see Daniel 2; 7). The antichrist will later shift his headquarters to Jerusalem, and then to commercial New Babylon, which will serve as the economic powerhouse of the end times.”2

But here is Rhodes view on Jerusalem being “New Babylon” (his term, not mine or the Bible’s).

It is also worth noting that there is no example in Jewish literature of the use of the term Babylon to mean Jerusalem. No church father taught this view. For nearly 2,000 years this view never breathed. It is a recent view.

What about the claim that Babylon “the great city” (Revelation 17: 18) must be Jerusalem, because earlier mentions of the “great city” in Revelation refer to Jerusalem (Revelation 11: 8; 16: 19)? This is a classic example of what is called an “illegitimate totality transfer”: The argument that “the great city” of Revelation 17– 18 is identical to “the great city” of Jerusalem found earlier in Revelation 11: 8 represents a hermeneutical error known as “illegitimate totality transfer.”

This error arises when the meaning of a word or phrase as derived from its use elsewhere is then automatically read into the same word or phrase in a foreign context. Jerusalem advocates commit such an error when they define “the great city” in Revelation 17– 18 from how the same phrase is used in totally different contexts elsewhere in Revelation.

There are yet more arguments against the Babylon = Jerusalem view. For example, Jerusalem is not a city of tremendous wealth, as is the New Babylon in Revelation 18. Certainly merchants around the world will not weep and wail should Jerusalem ever be destroyed. All things considered, there is very little to commend this view.3

  • Rhodes, Ron. New Babylon Rising: The Emerging End Times World Order (Kindle Locations 332-333). Harvest House Publishers. Kindle Edition.
  • Ibid., Kindle 338-340
  • Ibid., Kindle 756-769
 

Cindy S.

When he comes, will he find faith? Luke 18:8
Just asking............... Could the Vatican be the New Babylon? I know the bible sounds more literal than that, but the Vatican kind of fits the description. It is a city - heck, it is it's own little country - with a leader who is trying hard to influence world government, religion and economics. It has a dark history of being anti-Christ and has more money and treasures (mostly stolen) than we can imagine, and has been responsible for much death and destruction over the centuries.
Janet Parshall had a show with Ron Rhodes about Babylon yesterday. He believes it's the literal city and not a mystery. The podcast is available.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Janet Parshall had a show with Ron Rhodes about Babylon yesterday. He believes it's the literal city and not a mystery. The podcast is available.
Yes, I have heard him on Jan Markell and I have read his book "New Babylon Rising" I really like the book because there is so much good content in it about the last days. But even with all of his arguments, I am not persuaded that it will be a rebuilt city. But I could be wrong. I will be posting why in the near future. If you take all of the arguments he uses and those of Charles Dyer, Woods, and Hitchcock, you may be persuaded. It is not really what they use to try and prove it, it is what they fail to use that speaks against it that concerns me. And maybe this is a teaching moment for me. Maybe what I see missing is not as relevant as what the see existing. That is the research I am gathering. Hope to post something soon. BTW, I like all of these guys and believe they are great scholars.
 
Isaiah asked if he could add a little to our discussion. This is the vision of Jerusalem on the Day of the Lord. Add to this Daniel's prophecy and the 70th week of years which is this time has as an absolute that it will be Daniel's "people and city." to change it to any other people and city violates the prophecy and would make the prophecy false I think. If it was just the first 5 chapters I might be willing to consider, which I did for years, Gentile people and cities, but its De. 30, joel, Amos, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Zechariah.

The Day of the Lord
6 You, Lord, have abandoned your people, the descendants of Jacob.They are full of superstitions from the East;
they practice divination like the Philistines
and embrace pagan customs.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold;
there is no end to their treasures.
Their land is full of horses;
there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their fingers have made.
9 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled—
do not forgive them.[a]

10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship[b]
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.

19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

22 Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?
 
Janet Parshall had a show with Ron Rhodes about Babylon yesterday. He believes it's the literal city and not a mystery. The podcast is available.

a number of reasons not to believe Rome such as the seven Mounts which Jerusalem sits on Rome sits on hills. The last week of Daniel's 70 week must have as its focal point Daniel's people, Jews, and Daniel's city, Jerusalem.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
a number of reasons not to believe Rome such as the seven Mounts which Jerusalem sits on Rome sits on hills. The last week of Daniel's 70 week must have as its focal point Daniel's people, Jews, and Daniel's city, Jerusalem.
Your grammar does not allow me to understand what you are trying to say. :)
 
There are a number of reasons not to believe that Rome or any Gentile city is the great city of Revelation. Rome does not sit on 7 mounts she sits on hills. Jerusalem sits on 7 mounts.. the biggest reason not to believe it is any Gentile city is Daniel’s prophecy. The entire 70 weeks of years is concerning Daniel’s people and his city. Of course we know His people are Jews and his city is Jerusalem. It will be out of this apostate portion the faithful remnant will come. Escaping out of the valley (Zecthe Lord created when He returns to the Mount of Olives. This splitting of the Mount will cause the great harlot’s earthquake that kills 7,000 people.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Since we are talking about the future, and speculation about certain issues does exist, I do not think anyone will condemn you for holding to this view. But you will find that many disagree with you on it. If you go back to the historical context when John did write Revelation 95 AD you will find that the ruling empire was the Roman Empire, that Jerusalem had been annihilated, and that all there was left in Judah was stragglers and rebels. The seven mountains upon which the Harlot of Rev. 17 sits are seven kingdoms (Rev. 17:9-11). These are in order (Dan 2)
Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and that of the coming AC. The religious harlot, Babylon the Great, sits upon this endtime revived Roman Empire and even has influential control over it for a time in the final days. She will come from it and have a spiritual influence over masses of people who will listen to her wind driven drivel because of her massive influence (That does not happen overnight and an audience has to be earned). It just so happens that the one religious leader from the revived Roman Empire who has the most influence today is the Pope. And Francis, has not only 1/5th of the world in Catholics, he has also achieved the respect, through his lies, of atheists, LGBTQ crowds, feminists crowds, tree-huggers, climate-changers, and many others. These alone increase his current influence exponentially. So the City on Seven hills may be a hidden reference to where this FP comes from, but the real purpose of the text is to show her powerful influence to be over a kingdom which is part of the original kingdom list in Dan 2. That kingdom in John's day ruled from Rome. It is the 6th kingdom, will be the seventh from where AC rules, and his fatal wound/pseudo resurrection and possession by Satan will make the AC the 8th ruler over the same seventh kingdom. He, the first beast of Rev 13 chooses her, the harlot and second beast of Rev 13, because of her influence and control. He uses her to create and build his empire. When finished with her, he throws her into a dumpster and burns her with fire (Rev 17:16).
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
Okay, it may not be the right belief, but I WANT to believe Babylon in Rev is referring to Rome (because if it's a rebuild city in Iraq, then we probably have many more years to wait. The argument that a mighty city could be built practically overnight by the AC is a little hard for me to swallow.)
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Okay, it may not be the right belief, but I WANT to believe Babylon in Rev is referring to Rome (because if it's a rebuild city in Iraq, then we probably have many more years to wait. The argument that a mighty city could be built practically overnight by the AC is a little hard for me to swallow.)
Do not be discouraged. Understand that the Rapture is imminent. It is not dependent upon a city being built. I also have a hard time believiong that a city could be built and become so prosperous that it becomes the worlds official trade capitol. That, despite the wealth of Oil in the Middle East and the technology available.
 
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