Babylon the great

[AnewcreationinJesus]

Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon on Revelation (chapter 14 from verse 8) and he has started to mention Babylon, it's so interesting where he mentions the commonly held view that chapter 17 is seen as a separate Babylon from chapter 18... That a common view is chapter 17 is a religious system and chapter 18 is a commercial city or system... He reckons both chapters 17 and 18 describe a single literal city of Babylon which will be rebuilt... And to look at the way "City" is used as a literal word in both chapters 17 and 18... Even the last verse of 17 interprets Babylon as the great city, literal...

Woods reckons chapter 17 highlights the religious side of the city, and 18 highlights the commercial side of the city, and that the city itself is, for example, like the Vatican which is both a literal place and HQ of a religious system. The literal city Babylon will be destroyed in bowl judgement number 7...

Very very interesting...

 

[kathymendel]

Just asking............... Could the Vatican be the New Babylon? I know the bible sounds more literal than that, but the Vatican kind of fits the description. It is a city - heck, it is it's own little country - with a leader who is trying hard to influence world government, religion and economics. It has a dark history of being anti-Christ and has more money and treasures (mostly stolen) than we can imagine, and has been responsible for much death and destruction over the centuries.

 

[InsuranceGuy]

I believe Babylon is the Babylon of old. To me, it is sort of a counterfeit version of Israel. Israel is God's. Babylon is Satan's. Like Israel did, it will rise from extinction in the last days. Although I struggle with the idea of it becoming the center of the world in such a short time. That part absolutely baffles me and to be transparent, causes me to waiver on my belief at times that it's truly the original Babylon. The company I work for insures construction companies around the world. I am quite familiar with how long it takes to build a city, much less make it the center of world commerce. 3.5 years is not nearly long enough. It took 20 years for Abu Dhabi to become the crown jewel it is today, and there is work being done there every single day. So, in my mind, if it is the original Babylon, much work needs to be done. You can use Google and check the maps and pictures. There is nothing there right now that indicates it will become the center of world trade and/or commerce. The USA has a "base" there, so maybe that becomes the headquarters of someone? Who knows. A decade prior to Israel becoming a nation, most didn't think it would/could happen. God works as fast as he wants when he wants, so I don't know why I waiver so much in my thought process on this. If he's using human builders though, old Babylon needs 15+ years of work to be above the top 10 cities of the world. At least that long. Unfortunately, I've read many articles online where Christians will say "God can have it built in a day if he wants...." Personally, I think that makes us sound like a bunch of witches. lol As far as making it a beautiful city and the envy of the world - That part baffles me even more. It's one thing to make a beautiful city like Abu Dhabi. It's altogether different to make it the envy of the world. Abu Dhabi wasn't the envy of the modern world until it had been in existence for 20 years and the construction was going on 24/7. They simply could not have done construction work any faster than they did and it took a long time..... See? Now I'm flip-flopping again. Kathymendel - Ignore me. lol

 

[Kaatje]

Dr. David Reagan wrote a very interesting essay on this subject:

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/mystery-babylon/

 

[Mikedexion]

Revelation 17 - NIV
6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of God’s holy people, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus. When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.
7Then the angel said to me: “Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns.
8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.
9“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.
11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

If you search the Bible for its own clues you can kinda make sense of this. The Harlot rides this beast with 7 heads and 10 horns
Starting at vs 7 the Angel gives the interpretation (to a Jew living in around 90-95 A.D.) We know a beast in scripture is a world political empire or superpower. In vs 8 The Angel is saying the end-time beast is a beast that existed once, and then in John's day does not exist (excludes Rome) and then will rise up again from the abyss
--
Next he says the seven heads of the beast are seven hills (or mountains) and a mountain in scripture is symbolic of a kingdom (ie: Daniel 2:35, Jeremiah 51:25, Daniel 11:45)
--
So what 7 kingdom's or kings do we know of which have fallen prior to John's day? I can only think of:
1) Egypt
2) Assyria
3) Babylon
4) Medo-Persia
5) Greece Just as the Angel said all five of these kingdom's have fallen, and one is currently reigning which is:
6) Rome - Remember Peter called Rome "Babylon" 1 Peter 5:13
7) The 7th head is the one that has not come but must continue a short while... I can only think of one nation in human history that could be the 7th head the Harlot spirit sat on. What nation popped up between Rome and the final kingdom which eventually became the sole world superpower and basically influenced the rest of earth with her "whine and harlotries" which can be symbolic for good's, services and social influence. This nation is also an economic and military powerhouse and is proud?
Anyway's that leaves us with the 8th. The 8th and final "Babylon" is a power that existed on the earth before John's day and will astonish the world once it is revived. I can only guess at which one this will be. But it will be the idolatrous, economic powerhouse of the end-times.

 

[kathymendel]

InsuranceGuy........... No. I agree with you.............. the part that troubles me about it being the old ancient Babylon is the time it would take to rebuild it to the description given it in the last days in Revelation! That's why I was wondering if it were something else, already at least partially here, that would replace it. I've even thought of Abu Dabi in the past.......... It will sure be interesting to see how this unfolds - if we're still here that is.

 

[lenraff]

Get "A Woman Rides The Beast" By Dave Hunt. Excellent!!.

 

[antitox]

First,, Mystery Babylon is the propensity of man to elevate himself as to godhood. In Gen 11, the people said "Let us make a name for ourselves...." They were going to "ascend" the heights with their tower. The other part does become physically manifested in a system in the trib. So both sides of it are realized. With the AC's sum of his name being 666 is representive of a trinity of man. This is what it has been about all along.

 

[Love His Appearing]

Jan Markel had someone on her show this week and this was the topic. They disagreed on it which was interesting. She thinks Rome, he thinks literal Babylon. They both make sense to me, except I wonder why its called MYSTERY Babylon if it's just Babylon restored.

I really can't think how the time it takes to build a city could be an issue because God's timing isn't our own. He created the heavens and the earth in just 6 days, after all.

And now that you mention it, I don't think I have ever understood the whole 666 thing, but my questions on that would hijack this thread.

 

[Everlasting Life]

Dr. David Reagan wrote a very interesting essay on this subject:

https://christinprophecy.org/articles/mystery-babylon/

...The References in Revelation
So, what about the references in the book of Revelation which clearly indicate that Babylon will be the headquarters of the Antichrist during the Tribulation? The problem is that a qualifying term is used that makes it highly questionable that the meaning is literal Babylon.

The passage is Revelation 17:5. In the New American Standard Version, the translation introduces the reader to “a mystery, Babylon the Great.” The King James and New King James Versions both render the meaning as “Mystery Babylon the Great.”

Either way, the use of the qualifying word “mystery” seems to indicate that Babylon is to be taken symbolically.

This conclusion is reinforced by Revelation 11:8 where Jerusalem is referred to symbolically as the city “which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt.” Notice again the use of the word mystically as a tip-off that the author is speaking symbolically. In like manner, Peter uses Babylon as a symbol of Rome in 1 Peter 5:13. He was writing from Rome, and he closes the epistle by sending greetings from “the church which is in Babylon.” This statement makes it clear that among First Century Christians, Babylon was a nick-name for Rome.

Keep in mind that when John wrote Revelation, he was a Roman prisoner. He could not, therefore, make any disparaging references to Rome in his writings, so he used the nick-name of Babylon and even emphasized that it was a code word by referring to it as “Mystery Babylon.”

That John had Rome in mind is indicated later in chapter 17 of Revelation in two places. In verse 9 he refers to it as the city of “seven mountains.” In the First Century context, this could only refer to Rome, which was known as “the city of the seven hills.” In verse 18, John refers to the city as “the great city that reigns over the kings of the earth.” Again, this could only have been Rome in a First Century setting.....

 

[ShilohRose]

I haven't made up my mind about this. I can see evidence for either position.

 

[ByGod'sGrace]

Just my opinion, but I think it is the Vatican (the Pope and the color purple and the seat of horrible child abuse, etc). Last year, Pope Francis said atheists go to heaven...you can see how if people are raptured, there could be some lie about the aliens/supergods taking away the "crazy" people (Christians) and uniting the world in "peace" and "prosperity". Mystery Babylon, I assumed, was the Catholic Church/One World Religion. However, we will all find out someday.

 

[Jan51]

Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon on Revelation (chapter 14 from verse 8) and he has started to mention Babylon, it's so interesting where he mentions the commonly held view that chapter 17 is seen as a separate Babylon from chapter 18... That a common view is chapter 17 is a religious system and chapter 18 is a commercial city or system... He reckons both chapters 17 and 18 describe a single literal city of Babylon which will be rebuilt... And to look at the way "City" is used as a literal word in both chapters 17 and 18... Even the last verse of 17 interprets Babylon as the great city, literal...

The passage is Revelation 17:5. In the New American Standard Version, the translation introduces the reader to “a mystery, Babylon the Great.” The King James and New King James Versions both render the meaning as “Mystery Babylon the Great.”

Either way, the use of the qualifying word “mystery” seems to indicate that Babylon is to be taken symbolically.

I agree with Andy Woods about Babylon the city in Rev. 17-18. Years ago I read Tony Garland's notes (also found on Spiritandtruth.org along with Andy--a great resource!) on Revelation and this is his view; it made more sense to me than anything I had read in my previous decades of study. (yes, I am that old!)

My view is that "the city" is possibly both a literal endtimes city AND a symbolic one; many other things in the Bible seem to indicate more than one level of understanding. A study of "the city" casts an interesting light on the Babylon question in Rev. 17-18.

My interest in this subject began decades ago when I married my cowboy husband, a country boy who hated cities with a passion. He hated having to go to town for just about anything. I don't know how many times I heard him say: "The only good thing about them (blankety-blank) cities is, it keeps all them (blankety-blank) people out of the country!" Years later, I read that the the first two cities mentioned in the Bible were founded in direct disobedience to God; my husband was quite pleased to learn that he was right about cities being a bad thing! Being predisposed to think that way, I noticed when reading through Isaiah the numerous references to "the city" and the negative context. Eventually I began to put that together with Rev. 17-18, along with some other passages.

Some think the literal ancient city of Babylon will be rebuilt and influential at this time. Some think Babylon speaks figuratively of Rome or Jerusalem or some other key city. Some think it speaks not of a particular city, but of the corrupt world system in general. Babylon is likened to a harlot, who sells her services for money and has made herself ridiculously wealthy. She is full of sin and uncleanness, and the source of persecution of believers.

She is not only a harlot, but the source of all such harlotries in history and all kinds of sin. The kings of the earth do business with her, to such an extent that they are "drunk"--out of control, hardly even aware of or caring what they are doing. But God's judgment is going to fall upon her, whoever she is. Her identity is a mystery, so she is not a literal woman. I believe the key to identifying her is Rev. 17:18,"The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth." So we need to look more at the concept of "the great city."

Many identify the woman as the Catholic church, or Islam, but these religions were not around since the beginning, and could not be "the mother of harlots and the abominations of the earth." They are only part of that bigger picture. Many also identify the seven mountains of Rev. 17:9 with Rome, but the very next verse tells us the seven mountains are seven kings. (Mountains are often used symbolically in the Bible to speak of nations and powers.)

This is John's first mention of Babylon. The Old Testament speaks much of Babylon, both historically and prophetically. Babylon--the city, the kingdom, the world system--is a major thread in the Bible. What is so important about Babylon? It is first mentioned in II Kings 17:24, but the word "Babylon" is related to the word "babel" which takes us back to the tower of Babel in Gen. 11:9, which caused God to bring great judgment.

The first worldwide judgment was the flood, brough on by the great evil brought upon all mankind as described in Gen. 6. Mankind gets a new start after the flood, but another major judgment is just around the corner. The flood had destroyed all mankind except for Noah, his wife, his three sons and their wives; in Gen. 9:7 God commanded them to spread out and fill the earth. Gen. 10 gives the overview of the lines of the three sons--Ham, Shem and Japheth--and how they eventually spread throughout the earth. Just as Gen. 1 gives the overview of creation, followed by Gen. 2 which focuses on a specific relevant incident of the creation story, so the Gen. 10 overview of the dividing of families, tongues, and nations is followed by the explanation in Gen. 11 of how this dividing of mankind came about.

According to Gen. 9:20-27, Ham was a base fellow, and the Bible records how his descendants were like him, beginning with his son Canaan (whose name means "humiliated"). Apparently personality characteristics were already known to be passed down. The Canaanites became enemies of Israel and were known for their immorality and baseness. Another of Ham's sons, Cush, begat Nimrod, who is introduced in 10:6-10 and expanded on in Gen. 11. His name is from a Hebrew word meaning "let us revolt." As we saw in Gen. 6:4, "mighty one" has evil connotations: powerful, warrior, tyrant, champion, giant, chief, strong, valiant. Compare Eze. 32:12. "Before the Lord" can be "over against" which fits the context of the next chapter. "Mighty hunter" is not a complimentary term but includes the idea of hunting men, which is related to the establishing of his kingdom: Babel, in the land of Shinar.

We know Gen. 11 does not follow Gen. 10 chronologically because 10 spoke of the dividing of families, tongues and nations, yet 11:1 says the whole earth used the same language, so here is the explanation of the origin of languages. As men were multiplying (rapidly, due to long lifespans), they came to Shinar, 2. 10:8-10 told us this was the kingdom of Nimrod. They wanted to build a city so that they wouldn't be scattered across the earth, 4, in direct opposition to what had God commanded in 9:7.

We saw the same pattern of rebellion and disobedience in Cain; compare 4:12 and 4:16-17. The first city mentioned in the Bible was founded in direct disobedience to God. Babel, 10:10, is the second city mentioned in the Bible. It too was founded in direct disobedience to God. Settling in a permanent city, under a king, and pursuing false religion were done in defiance to God. (Obviously there were other cities at that time than the two mentioned, but it is significant that the Bible mentions these two in this particular context.)

Nimrod is a type of the beast. He was the first to attempt a one-world government, complete with emperor worship (of himself). He is against God, and sets himself up as a god (according to other historical sources). His tower was probably a ziggurat for worship and sacrifice. Historical lore tells us that goddess worship originated through Nimrod's wife Semiramis, "the queen of heaven," who the Bible speaks of along with other names from the Babylonian mystery religion: Ashtaroth, Baal/Bel, Marduk/Merodach, Tammuz.

Man's plans for a godless world system were brought to a stop by God's intervention, but that desire has always been present in the heart of godless world leaders. The language barrier has interfered with man's plans, but today once again all mankind can easily communicate, thanks to the computer. Globalism (one-world government) appears to be just around the corner, and God is about to pour out His wrath on godless man and the godless system represented by Babylon.

Does Revelation speak of Babylon as a literal rebuilt endtime city (which some would even identify as, not the ancient Babylon rebuilt, but perhaps Rome or Jerusalem), or does it speak of Babylon as a symbol of the world system? Very possibly both; a Bible passage often speaks on more than one level of meaning. Babylon is called "the great city"; it seems that Babylon symbolizes cities as the seat of commerce, commercialism, materialism, greed, which Col. 3:5 calls idolatry--another major Bible theme, a sin God hates. The first use of an important word in the Bible often provides context for its understanding; we saw that both the first and second mention of "city" were negative and in direct disobedience to God.

Isaiah 23-25, Micah 6:9-13, Nahum 3 support the negative implication of "the city." Tyre was the center of commercialism at that time, and similar comments are made about Tyre as we will find in Rev. 17 regarding Babylon. Both sit "on many waters"--many peoples and nations, Isa. 23:3, Rev. 17:1,15. Both Tyre and Babylon are harlots committing immorality with all the kings of the earth, Isa. 23:17, Rev. 17:1-2. In Revelation, the tribulation shows God pouring out His wrath on "the city" and all the evil it represents. Note: Not every city in the Bible speaks of evil; we are talking about the symbolic concept, "the city."

 

[Kaatje]

Great article, @Jan51. Very, very convincing!

 

[Sowen]

I agree with Andy Woods about Babylon the city in Rev. 17-18. Years ago I read Tony Garland's notes (also found on Spiritandtruth.org along with Andy--a great resource!) on Revelation and this is his view; it made more sense to me than anything I had read in my previous decades of study. (yes, I am that old!)

Great post. I hold the literal Babylon view as well. I've just found that site you mentioned, and read a paper by Dr. Woods that they have as a .pdf file. The paper's Greek didn't encode properly in their .pdf file, but the point of the paper is still understandable with all its arguments intact even without knowing the source Greek that's referred to.

ETA: http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/7/7.pdf?x=x

 

[antitox]

I have to admit that I do think it'll be Rome, especially with the "city on seven mountains (hills)" mentioned in Rev.

 

[Sowen]

I have to admit that I do think it'll be Rome, especially with the "city on seven mountains (hills)" mentioned in Rev.

The Bible doesn't say, "city on seven mountains (hills)". It says in Revelation 17:3:

3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.​

A few verses later in Revelation 17:9-10, the Bible tells us what the seven heads are:

9 “Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.​

Scripture cited from NASB

 

[antitox]

ok, maybe i didn't say it exact but the woman is the babylon harlot sitting on seven mountains - it may be just the king reference or it may be both - that works for me.

 

[mikhen7]

Great post. I hold the literal Babylon view as well. I've just found that site you mentioned, and read a paper by Dr. Woods that they have as a .pdf file. The paper's Greek didn't encode properly in their .pdf file, but the point of the paper is still understandable with all its arguments intact even without knowing the source Greek that's referred to.

ETA: http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/7/7.pdf?x=x

Thanks for posting this. I am in the middle of reading Woods paper, and Rhode's New book in which he states Babylon will be rebuilt. I have read Dr. Reagan's work as well as Hindson's, and Dyer's. All great Premillennial scholars but being opposed on the topics. When I have completed Ron Rhodes book and Wood's paper, I will post a synopsis (and not a lengthy one). As I stand currently, and I have not budged, I do not believe that ancient Babylon will be rebuilt. I do believe the harlot of Rev. 17 is a centuries old corrupt religious system that is connected to the commercial/political Babylon of Rev. 18. I believe the False Prophet will come out of Rome and be used by the beast AC as his evangelist in getting the world to come onboard with his beast financial and political system (including worship and allegiance to AC (Satan incarnate)). I then believe that once he (Satan) is done with her, he will turn and destroy her. The False Prophet is needed by the beast. Only Roman Catholicism and a pope like Frannie, who is ecumenical and universal in his theology, has the clout to persuade billions of people worldwide. We must remember, he has gained support of Atheists, LGBTQ, Islamacists, and his own Catholics. the numbers add up into the billions. A person with that much clout and outreach is surely to used by the Enemy of God, mankind, and believers. His promises are nothing more than a puff of smoke to be carried off by the wind. Again once AC is finished with her, he will turn on her. I believe the FP's HQ is Rome but the AC's remains to be seen. But there will be a connection of sorts, i.e., they feed on each other just like Satan eats his own (figuratively speaking).

15 Then he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. 16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Re 17:15–17.

 

[Steve53]

https://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/babylon-wheres-the-mystery/