Babylon the great

I can only say again in order for Daniel’s 70 Week prophecy is true it must deal with Daniel’speople and city. The Words are not Rome and her people judgment comes first to the Jew then to the Gentile. First is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble and a 1,000 years later the Apocalypse. Where Satan leads got and Magog the Gentile nations to their destruction. The vision concerns Daniel’s city and His people. Unless this is overcome any gentile city must be excluded. Many other reasons it must be Jerusalem.
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
I can only say again in order for Daniel’s 70 Week prophecy is true it must deal with Daniel’speople and city. The Words are not Rome and her people judgment comes first to the Jew then to the Gentile. First is the Time of Jacob’s Trouble and a 1,000 years later the Apocalypse. Where Satan leads got and Magog the Gentile nations to their destruction. The vision concerns Daniel’s city and His people. Unless this is overcome any gentile city must be excluded. Many other reasons it must be Jerusalem.

I'm sorry, but I wasn't following your argument here. Are you claiming that Daniel's 70th week (aka the Tribulation) in it's entirety only concerns Israel? And that the final battle (aka Armageddon) is supposed to happen at the end of Jesus millennial reign rather that rather than right before his second coming? If I'm understanding this correctly, then I'll respectfully disagree with this view (this seems to ignore too many Bible verses in favor of just one or two)... But if you'd care to clarify, perhaps that would resolve the confusion.
 
I'm sorry, but I wasn't following your argument here. Are you claiming that Daniel's 70th week (aka the Tribulation) in it's entirety only concerns Israel? And that the final battle (aka Armageddon) is supposed to happen at the end of Jesus millennial reign rather that rather than right before his second coming? If I'm understanding this correctly, then I'll respectfully disagree with this view (this seems to ignore too many Bible verses in favor of just one or two)... But if you'd care to clarify, perhaps that would resolve the confusion.

Hi, I am a lousy typist with bad grammar so I will try to make things clear.

The promise is judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles. Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is about Daniel's city and people. The entire 490 years is the time of Daniel's people, Israel, and his city, Jerusalem. Here is the Prophet Isaiah prophecy of apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord
6 You, Lord, have abandoned your people,
the descendants of Jacob.
They are full of superstitions from the East;
they practice divination like the Philistines
and embrace pagan customs.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold;
there is no end to their treasures.
Their land is full of horses;
there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their fingers have made.
9 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled—
do not forgive them.[a]

10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship[b]
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.

19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

22 Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

This is when the Returned Lord has come in all His glory. The entire first five chapters of Isaiah deals with the same time covered by the Revelation or as it should be called The Time of Jacobs Trouble. Next post please
 
Hi, I am a lousy typist with bad grammar so I will try to make things clear.

The promise is judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles. Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is about Daniel's city and people. The entire 490 years is the time of Daniel's people, Israel, and his city, Jerusalem. Here is the Prophet Isaiah prophecy of apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord
6 You, Lord, have abandoned your people,
the descendants of Jacob.
They are full of superstitions from the East;
they practice divination like the Philistines
and embrace pagan customs.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold;
there is no end to their treasures.
Their land is full of horses;
there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their fingers have made.
9 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled—
do not forgive them.[a]

10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship[b]
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.

19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

22 Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

This is when the Returned Lord has come in all His glory. The entire first five chapters of Isaiah deals with the same time covered by the Revelation or as it should be called The Time of Jacobs Trouble. Next post please
I'm sorry, but I wasn't following your argument here. Are you claiming that Daniel's 70th week (aka the Tribulation) in it's entirety only concerns Israel? And that the final battle (aka Armageddon) is supposed to happen at the end of Jesus millennial reign rather that rather than right before his second coming? If I'm understanding this correctly, then I'll respectfully disagree with this view (this seems to ignore too many Bible verses in favor of just one or two)... But if you'd care to clarify, perhaps that would resolve the confusion.
Hi, I am a lousy typist with bad grammar so I will try to make things clear.

The promise is judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles. Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is about Daniel's city and people. The entire 490 years is the time of Daniel's people, Israel, and his city, Jerusalem. Here is the Prophet Isaiah prophecy of apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord
6 You, Lord, have abandoned your people,
the descendants of Jacob.
They are full of superstitions from the East;
they practice divination like the Philistines
and embrace pagan customs.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold;
there is no end to their treasures.
Their land is full of horses;
there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their fingers have made.
9 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled—
do not forgive them.[a]

10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship[b]
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.

19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

22 Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

This is when the Returned Lord has come in all His glory. The entire first five chapters of Isaiah deals with the same time covered by the Revelation or as it should be called The Time of Jacobs Trouble. Next post please

…6Ask now, and see: Can a male give birth? Why then do I see every man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor and every face turned pale? 7How awful that day will be! None will be like it! It is the time of Jacob’s distress, but he will be delivered out of it. 8On that day, declares the LORD of Hosts, I will break the yoke off their necks and tear off their bonds, and no longer will strangers enslave them.…Jer. 30

How do I start a new message to you?
 

Sowen

Well-Known Member
Okay, it may not be the right belief, but I WANT to believe Babylon in Rev is referring to Rome (because if it's a rebuild city in Iraq, then we probably have many more years to wait. The argument that a mighty city could be built practically overnight by the AC is a little hard for me to swallow.)
As mikhen7 stated, we don't have to wait for anything before the rapture, so no worries. :)

Also, stranger things have happened regarding cities and nations. For example, the nation of Israel was remade in a literal day, and the original Babylon, the world's great superpower at the time, was taken literally overnight without a fight. Both happened exactly as foretold by Scripture.

Another thing to consider is the tribulation doesn't start immediately after the rapture; there's going to be a period of time after the rapture before it starts. We don't know how long this period of time will be because Scripture doesn't say. Maybe it's enough time for Babylon to be literally rebuilt.

Whether Babylon will be literally rebuilt or only restored in a spiritual sense, only God knows for now, so it's not something I'm dogmatic about; it's a non-essential. All I know without a doubt is God's word will not return void, so everything prophesied will happen. Babylon will exist in some form in the end.
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Dear BOL, I believe Batfan, myself and literally all others on the forum are aware that Jer. 30:7 is Jacob's time of trouble. We are aware that the 70 weeks prophecy concerns Israel and the Jews. But the Tribulation Period is not pinned down to Israel alone. The entire world will go through this period and God's vengeance upon the sins and evils of the past, both against Him, and the Church will be carried out during this period. What you were trying to say originally is that Jerusalem is to be equated with "Mystery, Babylon the Great" the great prostitute of Rev. 17. We are not denying that Israel will be dealt with in the 70th week, the tribulation. But if you follow the paper trail from ancient Babylon, i.e., the Chaldean ancient pagan religious system, you will find it was uprooted from ancient Babylon and ended up in Rome not Jerusalem. Besides she is seen rising up from many waters in Rev 17:1, which is a picture of the nations not Jerusalem. This prostitute rides the Beast (AC) and is supported by the AC, at least for awhile, but she also has religious influence and control over the nations pictured by the ten horns of the seven headed beast, which are the nations the AC rules over. There is an alliance between the two, i.e., the political/commercial system of AC (Revived Roman Empire, Dan 9:26-27).

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself [Christ dies for the sins of the world]; And the people of the prince who is to come [Roman General Titus and Emperor Vespasian of Rome] Shall destroy the city [Jerusalem 70AD] and the sanctuary [Jewish Temple 70AD]. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he [the AC- descendant of Roman people]shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [seven-years]; But in the middle of the week [3.5 years in]He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering [Jewish sacrifice]. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
(Dan 9:26-27)

The great prostitute of Rev 17:5 is called a mystery because of her identity. She is a continuation of the ancient Chaldean (Babylonian) religion/pagan cult. She is drunken with the blood of the saints because in Rome and its system countless thousands of true believers were burned at the stake and martyred by her. She also, in the name of Jesus, built armies to go to war. She also prostituted herself with politics as the Holy Roman Emperors of the past were also heads of the Roman religion and eventually under Constantine, the church. She is called a prostitute because she will proclaim universalism and salvation for all religions and people regardless of faith in Christ and she is doing this true to her nature and inherited past. Although symbolically, Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev 11:8) she is not called Babylon. However, Peter does refer to Rome as symbolic Babylon, (1 Pet. 5:13). Let's also not forget that Rome is pictured as the 4th and 5th empires of Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Dan 2. (the Iron legs and iron and clay ten toes). So Daniel is not just about Jerusalem and the Jews.

The path of the ancient Chaldean religion (Babylon) can be traced as follows:
  1. The title "Babylon the Great" on her forehead, does tie her to the ancient city of Babylon, but only in the "mysterious" religious way. Mystery is annexed to this harlot because of the spiritual nature not just for geographical or historical purposes. Whether in a Jewish or Christian context, the woman has ties back to the Babylonian religion having made unholy alliances of the people of God to the world. In short, she is a prostitute (some examples: Jer 3:6, 8. 9; Ezek 16:32 and many others).
  2. Organized idolatry was first started by Nimrod (Gen 11). Vine states, "The name of the ancient god Bacchus, denotes 'Son of Cush,' and is therefore to be identified with Nimrod, who was deified after his death." All forms of paganism and mythology have their antecedent in Babylon. In Chaldea there was Nimrod and his queen Semiramis. Baal and Astarte - worshiped by Jezebel and found as being worshiped in Israel also sprang from the Chaldean/Babylonian system. The Babel cult also worshiped a pseudo trinity of father, mother, and son; the mother being called the 'Queen of Heaven' also found in the Bible (Jer 7:18, 44:17-25). She was called Astarte in Syria, Diana in Ephesus, Aphrodite in Greece, Venus in Rome, and Isis in Egypt.
  3. After capture by the Medo-Persians under Cyrus in 538BC the the shaven-headed priest of Chaldea (sign of religious devotion) were driven from Babylon and into Asia Minor where they were welcomed by the Lydian King, There they established their religious HQ in Pergamos, the new Seat of Satan, ( Rev 2:13). In 133BC when King Attalus III died, his kingdom and the dominion of it passed to the Romans. In the following century, Julius Caesar came to power and removed all the Chaldean priests and religious accoutrements/paraphernalia to Rome to mix it with the religion of Rome where he was already the 'Pontifex Maximus' or 'Chief Pontiff' of Rome. Being emperor and pontiff, he became head over all the Romanized kingdoms and territories. Thus Rome became the seat of the ancient Babylonian religions. (relied somewhat on Vine and his history and some others for content)
 
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Dear BOL, I believe Batfan, myself and literally all others on the forum are aware that Jer. 30:7 is Jacob's time of trouble. We are aware that the 70 weeks prophecy concerns Israel and the Jews. But the Tribulation Period is not pinned down to Israel alone. The entire world will go through this period and God's vengeance upon the sins and evils of the past, both against Him, and the Church will be carried out during this period. What you were trying to say originally is that Jerusalem is to be equated with "Mystery, Babylon the Great" the great prostitute of Rev. 17. We are not denying that Israel will be dealt with in the 70th week, the tribulation. But if you follow the paper trail from ancient Babylon, i.e., the Chaldean ancient pagan religious system, you will find it was uprooted from ancient Babylon and ended up in Rome not Jerusalem. Besides she is seen rising up from many waters in Rev 17:1, which is a picture of the nations not Jerusalem. This prostitute rides the Beast (AC) and is supported by the AC, at least for awhile, but she also has religious influence and control over the nations pictured by the ten horns of the seven headed beast, which are the nations the AC rules over. There is an alliance between the two, i.e., the political/commercial system of AC (Revived Roman Empire, Dan 9:26-27).

"And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself [Christ dies for the sins of the world]; And the people of the prince who is to come [Roman General Titus and Emperor Vespasian of Rome] Shall destroy the city [Jerusalem 70AD] and the sanctuary [Jewish Temple 70AD]. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. Then he [the AC- descendant of Roman people]shall confirm a covenant with many for one week [seven-years]; But in the middle of the week [3.5 years in]He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering [Jewish sacrifice]. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."
(Dan 9:26-27)

The great prostitute of Rev 17:5 is called a mystery because of her identity. She is a continuation of the ancient Chaldean (Babylonian) religion/pagan cult. She is drunken with the blood of the saints because in Rome and its system countless thousands of true believers were burned at the stake and martyred by her. She also, in the name of Jesus, built armies to go to war. She also prostituted herself with politics as the Holy Roman Emperors of the past were also heads of the Roman religion and eventually under Constantine, the church. She is called a prostitute because she will proclaim universalism and salvation for all religions and people regardless of faith in Christ and she is doing this true to her nature and inherited past. Although symbolically, Jerusalem is called "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev 11:8) she is not called Babylon. However, Peter does refer to Rome as symbolic Babylon, (1 Pet. 5:13). Let's also not forget that Rome is pictured as the 4th and 5th empires of Nebuchadnezzar's statue in Dan 2. (the Iron legs and iron and clay ten toes). So Daniel is not just about Jerusalem and the Jews.

The path of the ancient Chaldean religion (Babylon) can be traced as follows:
  1. The title "Babylon the Great" on her forehead, does tie her to the ancient city of Babylon, but only in the "mysterious" religious way. Mystery is annexed to this harlot because of the spiritual nature not just for geographical or historical purposes. Whether in a Jewish or Christian context, the woman has ties back to the Babylonian religion having made unholy alliances of the people of God to the world. In short, she is a prostitute (some examples: Jer 3:6, 8. 9; Ezek 16:32 and many others).
  2. Organized idolatry was first started by Nimrod (Gen 11). Vine states, "The name of the ancient god Bacchus, denotes 'Son of Cush,' and is therefore to be identified with Nimrod, who was deified after his death." All forms of paganism and mythology have their antecedent in Babylon. In Chaldea there was Nimrod and his queen Semiramis. Baal and Astarte - worshiped by Jezebel and found as being worshiped in Israel also sprang from the Chaldean/Babylonian system. The Babel cult also worshiped a pseudo trinity of father, mother, and son; the mother being called the 'Queen of Heaven' also found in the Bible (Jer 7:18, 44:17-25). She was called Astarte in Syria, Diana in Ephesus, Aphrodite in Greece, Venus in Rome, and Isis in Egypt.
  3. After capture by the Medo-Persians under Cyrus in 538BC the the shaven-headed priest of Chaldea (sign of religious devotion) were driven from Babylon and into Asia Minor where they were welcomed by the Lydian King, There they established their religious HQ in Pergamos, the new Seat of Satan, ( Rev 2:13). In 133BC when King Attalus III died, his kingdom and the dominion of it passed to the Romans. In the following century, Julius Caesar came to power and removed all the Chaldean priests and religious accoutrements/paraphernalia to Rome to mix it with the religion of Rome where he was already the 'Pontifex Maximus' or 'Chief Pontiff' of Rome. Being emperor and pontiff, he became head over all the Romanized kingdoms and territories. Thus Rome became the seat of the ancient Babylonian religions. (relied somewhat on Vine and his history and some others for content)
Hi Michener, boy you type and lay stuff out great. I am envious. There was a time every new doctrine had to face whatever beliefs that had grown up. But Scripture is a progressive revelation and prophetic things are not revealed until their time is close. I. appreciate what I am doing will be an uphill battle, so to speak, . But I believe you are in correct. Here is some of what we miss when we without any Scriptuural authority remove Daniel’s people and city from the focus of the last Week. Btw I hope I didn’t intimate I thought folks didn’t know about the jacob’s Trouble passage I surely do not think anything like that if I did I am grieved and deeply sorry. One more btw, I know as you do that the Lord uses the weak and foolish things so all glory is His and is am proud that I might be weak and foolish enough to be used. By Him.

What has been missed. Oh yes you do know there are two different Days of Wrath with Jacob’s Trouble happening at the return of Him during that seven year period of which you believe. The second great Day of the Lord’s Wrath that happens when Gog and Magog, the Gentile nations come against the Millennial Temple.. let’s talk for a moment about anti-Christ. How will Apostate Israel recognize him to be Messiah? Born in the land this is the shepherd the Lord is going to raise up in the Land. But it is the false prophet who will play the central role in confirming for the apostate portion of Israel. We know the prophet Elijah is due to prepare the way for the Lord. This is who the false prophet will seem to be. He will come doing lying signs and wonders. We are told one and only one of those lying signs and wonders the false prophet will do. He will seem to bring fire down from heaven. I suggest that this alone would convince many that the time of Messiah had come.

This brings us to the arrival of anti-Christ. The anti-Christ and the Lord have something in common, lightening. Yes we are told anti-Christ and the Lord are coming as lightening. Lightening is a man’s description of something indescribable, the Shekinah Glory. When the false Elijah brings down anti-Christ as Fire no one is going to doubt Messiah has come. Oh and this provides one other thing the fire needed for temple service. Anti-Christ cannot declare himself to be god if he can’t even open his own his own temple. But that is solved with the fire from heaven. There is so much more like this it is impossible for me to ignore it. When you add the o.t. Prophecies covering this same time period it clinches it for me. Prophecies such as de. 32, Isaiah 1- 5, to mention just two end times prophecies. I look forward to hearing your thoughts and maybe sharing more of this with you. Thanks
 
Two Shepherds
4 This is what the Lord my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the Lord, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the Lord. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.” one flock is marked for slaughter. Their own leaders only care for the money they are worth.


7 So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds. The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.” I won't deal with every aspect. Here we are again shown the flock but we are also shown staffs one called Favor and the other called Unity. In one month three shepherds are gotten rid of and these three shepherds seen as the missing heads with the crowns left behind that anti-Christ is sitting on. The Lord is about to split the nation into two kingdoms and those three come out of the 10 tribes of the northern Kingdom, Israel.


10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord. Favor was the covenant the Lord had entered into with the nations not to destroy Israel. We are shown favor being removed in Isaiah 5 as the hedge of protection being broken down and Israel being more and more vulnerable to attack. This has been taking place for some time now. Israel could return to the Lord and let Him fight for her or they could try and do it through their own works. Her choice is encircling her now with the walls. But the works of their hands have only set them ready for the cooking pot Jerusalem will become.


12 I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord. we recognize these words from our Lord's time with Judas selling the Lord out.

14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel. Once again Israel in the last days will be a divided kingdom. It appears Israel will accept anti-Christ and Judah reject him which sets in motion anti-Christ's moving to destroy Judah and have the temple for himself. Anti-Christ then places himself on the throne of David.


15 Then the Lord said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves. we see here anti-Christ is going to be raised in the land meaning Israel. He is going to be a ravenous beast who is going to tear the sheep apart. It will probably be at or around the final Passover of the Last Week of Years when the Lord returns to the Mount of Olives and we see the faithful remnant fleeing through the valley caused by the split mountain and scattering into the countryside around Jerusalem.


17 “Woe to the worthless shepherd, who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye!
May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!” Almost like an aside we are told one other piece of the puzzle. Anti-Christ is going to be wounded and maybe seem to be dead from which he will counterfeit Christ's Resurrection
 

antitox

Well-Known Member
Yes, the whole world will be taken by the AC. Rev 13:8 "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain".

Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
 
Yes, the whole world will be taken by the AC. Rev 13:8 "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain".

Dan 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High; and he shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and half a time.
The glimpse the Lord gave us is]like hitting a vein of pure gold.. but you don’t want to deal with the section I have brought forth. I am not sure how you can see the passage from Isaiah above and it does have any value to see the apostate portion of Israel on the day the lo
Lord returns full of gods, power, wealth and not even question if your Gentile entity could possibly be in error or at least debate it. This is the story of Daniel’s people and city, Jerusalem who must be the focus of this time and you go to a Gentile this or Gentile that. The story of the two shepherds where israel’s Conduct during these days not only to remove His protection that has kept from being destroyed is removed. If that was not enough then the news that the Lord is breaking the Staff if “Union” will split Israel into the divided kingdom she once was. What does this knowledge bring to the table? When Israel was divided the northern kingdom was, and will again be made up of ten tribes or kings. But her being the center for false worship has not even “interesting” that the Northern kingdom is shown with three (3) of her ten king plucked away leaving the exact number of the great mystery Babylon sitting on an entity that tosses Daniel’s prophecy for a Gentile somebody or something when we are handed just what we are looking for. Not even a curious “”why that 10 heads with three of them plucked up right when you are to find an unknown Gentile entity to fill what has been handed to us seeking to fulfill the prophecy withDaniel’s people and city have had just the opposite effect the theory looks for Rome 7 Hills compared to Jerusalem on 7 Mounts. What does Jerusalem need to do?

Althrough Scripture Jerusalem is the spiritual harlot even going so far as to show her doing the very thing mystery Babylon.has declared over and over again.. A Harlot sitting on a kingdom with ten kings that has had three removed so let’s not use Jerusalem we have plenty of Gentile cities that don’t fit The 70 weeks of years that all but demands that the City Of Daniel is mystery Babylon. When did Babylon play the Harlot on the Lord? Never! Apostate Israel can’t be mystery Because she is everything mystery Babylon is supposed to be.

No Gentile city has ever been wed to the Lord, only Israel so where did their harlotries that fill the cup she has she must drink from? We are told mystery Babylon has become a harlot that indicates she was not a har.lot at one time. Which .gentile city has acted the harlot with the only spiritual harlot in the history of the world. You can take all the Gentile candidates and not have them ever having played the harlot. But apostate Jerusalem is ruled out she is give one more
 

AnewcreationinJesus

Soon and very soon ....
Interesting seeing the discussion on here... Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon Babylon bookends part 2, which walks through various theories including re Jerusalem, etc... Haven't finished listening yet, but is interesting and indeed pen and paper at the ready to take notes... He brings up something very interesting re Revelation 17 verse 5 comparing kjv to nasb version too, concerning use of the word "mystery"....

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greg64

Well-Known Member
Interesting seeing the discussion on here... Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon Babylon bookends part 2, which walks through various theories including re Jerusalem, etc... Haven't finished listening yet, but is interesting and indeed pen and paper at the ready to take notes... He brings up something very interesting re Revelation 17 verse 5 comparing kjv to nasb version too, concerning use of the word "mystery"....

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I agree -- caught that one yesterday. Both parts are very worthwhile to listen to, but if you only have time for one, check out part 2. As Andy points out over and over, Babylon is the mother of all harlots, as it's where the first world system in opposition to God was formed, and its tentacles reach down through history and are traced through most of the world's religions. I think he makes a lot of sense that other candidates people have identified (Rome, US, etc.) are only daughter harlots. Whether his view is correct or not only time will tell, but I think his arguments are compelling and sound...
 

Sowen

Well-Known Member
Interesting seeing the discussion on here... Just listening to Andy Woods latest sermon Babylon bookends part 2, which walks through various theories including re Jerusalem, etc... Haven't finished listening yet, but is interesting and indeed pen and paper at the ready to take notes... He brings up something very interesting re Revelation 17 verse 5 comparing kjv to nasb version too, concerning use of the word "mystery"....

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Yep, that's a major reason I'm firmly planted in the literal Babylon camp. "Mystery" is in apposition to "name". In the Koine Greek source text it's clearer, but in most of our English translations, "mystery" has been attached to "Babylon", so that it reads as if Babylon itself is the mystery, but it's not.

The mystery is the revelation of what Babylon is at the end.

I read the Bible literally unless it's obviously figuratively because reading it any other way opens the door to making up anything you want. I don't see anything in the text, immediate context, or the Bible as a whole to suggest it's anything other than literal Babylon, so I'm just going to stick to that.

(Just to clarify, you don't need to know Koine Greek to hold the literal Babylon view. You can glean this just as well by reading the English translation, but you'll have to know the Bible as a whole to trace all the connections, which is great because then you'll know the Bible for yourself cover to cover. :D)
 
Hi, let me guess you disagree. And you won’t be surprised I cannot agree with you. I do have a comment then a few questions. How did you figure out I just make up whatever I want? Now for the questions.
1) did you read the passage from Isaiah that shows apostate Israel at the time the Lord has come in His glory? How did Israel become filled with false gods and worship, exceedingly rich and powerful when you can’t buy os sell without His mark.
2) did anti-christ make an exception for Israel? What is the Lord going to do give them an exception?
3) do you believe the 70th Week of Daniel’s prophecy is waiting to be fulfilled? Who is the full 70 Weeks about?
4) anyone else declared by Scripture as Apostate Israel is in Ez, 23?
5) what do you make of the claim that virgin Israel has fallen never to rise again. Already happened? Still future?
I look forward to your responses.
 

Batfan7

Well-Known Member
Hi, let me guess you disagree. And you won’t be surprised I cannot agree with you. I do have a comment then a few questions. How did you figure out I just make up whatever I want? Now for the questions.
1) did you read the passage from Isaiah that shows apostate Israel at the time the Lord has come in His glory? How did Israel become filled with false gods and worship, exceedingly rich and powerful when you can’t buy os sell without His mark.
2) did anti-christ make an exception for Israel? What is the Lord going to do give them an exception?
3) do you believe the 70th Week of Daniel’s prophecy is waiting to be fulfilled? Who is the full 70 Weeks about?
4) anyone else declared by Scripture as Apostate Israel is in Ez, 23?
5) what do you make of the claim that virgin Israel has fallen never to rise again. Already happened? Still future?
I look forward to your responses.

Hi! I'm going to apologise in advance if I don't answer the questions you posted in the manner you'd prefer (It seems English might not be your native language, so I might misinterpret what you meant, or perhaps might not be as knowledgeable as you'd prefer) Anyway, I am one of those who have read several different views of who Mystery Babylon is and tend to lean towards literal Babylon, but that other cities (Jerusalem included) have interesting arguments for their side.

Okay, first, I agree with you Breath of Life that God's focus in the last days is going to be Israel and the Jewish people. The AntiChrist is accepted as the Jewish Messiah, so there's a good reason to believe he is at least partially Jewish (in ancestry, not necessarily nationally). Daniel 11:37 says he won't regard the God of his fathers, so that seems to make him ancestrally Jewish. But he heads a revived Roman empire and is said to come "from the sea", which represents "the nations".

Regardless, you asked:
1)how Israel got so wealthy when buying and selling requires the mark of the Beast... My answer is multi-fold. First, some (many?) take the mark. Second, Israel has a whole lot of potential wealth now, so why can't it be referring to this plus the wealth made before the AntiChrist requires the mark (he doesn't do that immediately). Finally, I did read the above Isiah passage and think there's a good case to be made that it refers to the dispersion of Jews in 70 AD.
2)
But let's go with the idea that this DOES mean the end times. Perhaps the beaking of Israel into Judah and Israel refers to dividing the land between Jewish Israel and Palestinians. There's another verse (I can't recall where) that seems to indicate The AntiChrist will spare the modern country of Jordon, so perhaps that has something to do with this passage as well?

3) The 70th week is still to be fulfilled. It hasn't started yet. Israel hasn't declared they've found a Messiah. They haven't singed a treaty with "many" (aka the covenant with death). And the church has not yet been Raptured. During the 70th week, God's focus is on Jews, although there will still be gentiles who come to trust in Jesus.

4) Ninivah was declared a harlot by God. As was another Gentile city...I can't remember which one though. Tarshish, maybe? As for a "Bride", Israel, Jerusalem, and the Church are all called the Bride at various times in scripture.

5) No idea?

Hope this helps rather than adding to confusion.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Hi, I am a lousy typist with bad grammar so I will try to make things clear.

The promise is judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentiles. Daniel's 70 Weeks of Years is about Daniel's city and people. The entire 490 years is the time of Daniel's people, Israel, and his city, Jerusalem. Here is the Prophet Isaiah prophecy of apostate Israel on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord
6 You, Lord, have abandoned your people,
the descendants of Jacob.
They are full of superstitions from the East;
they practice divination like the Philistines
and embrace pagan customs.
7 Their land is full of silver and gold;
there is no end to their treasures.
Their land is full of horses;
there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land is full of idols;
they bow down to the work of their hands,
to what their fingers have made.
9 So people will be brought low
and everyone humbled—
do not forgive them.[a]

10 Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
(and they will be humbled),
13 for all the cedars of Lebanon, tall and lofty,
and all the oaks of Bashan,
14 for all the towering mountains
and all the high hills,
15 for every lofty tower
and every fortified wall,
16 for every trading ship[b]
and every stately vessel.
17 The arrogance of man will be brought low
and human pride humbled;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day,
18 and the idols will totally disappear.

19 People will flee to caves in the rocks
and to holes in the ground
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.
20 In that day people will throw away
to the moles and bats
their idols of silver and idols of gold,
which they made to worship.
21 They will flee to caverns in the rocks
and to the overhanging crags
from the fearful presence of the Lord
and the splendor of his majesty,
when he rises to shake the earth.

22 Stop trusting in mere humans,
who have but a breath in their nostrils.
Why hold them in esteem?

This is when the Returned Lord has come in all His glory. The entire first five chapters of Isaiah deals with the same time covered by the Revelation or as it should be called The Time of Jacobs Trouble. Next post please
Here is some information on interpreting prophecy that may shed some light for you on the Isaiah passage.

Things to Come, Dwight Pentecost, p. 46-47
C. The law of double reference. Few laws are more important to observe in the interpretation of prophetic Scriptures than the law of double reference. Two events, widely separated as to the time of their fulfillment, may be brought together into the scope of one prophecy. This was done because the prophet had a message for his own day as well as for a future time. By bringing two widely separated events into the scope of the prophecy both purposes could be fulfilled. Horne says: "The same prophecies frequently have a double meaning, and refer to different events, the one near, the other remote; the one temporal, the other spiritual or perhaps eternal. The prophets thus having several events in view, their expressions may be partly applicable to one, and partly to another, and it is not always easy to make the transitions. What has not been fulfilled in the first, we must apply to the second; and what has already been fulfilled, may often be considered as typical of what remains to be accomplished."

It was the purpose of God to give the near and far view so that the fulfillment of the one should be the assurance of the fulfillment of the other.

Thru the Bible with J. Vernon McGee, Vol. 3
From notes on Isa. 3, p. 197:
The prophecy before us is a picture of Isaiah's day, and it has been fulfilled. However, its fulfillment does not exhaust its meaning, because the conditions described will prevail again at the end times and wil bring down the wrath of God in judgment--not only upon Israel but upon the nations of the world."

From notes on Isa. 4, p. 200:
We have set before us a description of the conditions which prevailed at the time of the Babylonian captivity and also of the conditions which will exist during the Great Tribulation Period right before the setting up of the messianic kingdom.

From notes on Isa. 5, p. 202, 203:
In Isaiah the prophet announces the imminent captivity of the northern kingdom into Assyria and of the southern kingdom into Babylon...This is a clear prediction of the forthcoming captivities of both the kingdoms.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
Althrough Scripture Jerusalem is the spiritual harlot even going so far as to show her doing the very thing mystery Babylon.has declared over and over again.. A Harlot sitting on a kingdom with ten kings that has had three removed so let’s not use Jerusalem we have plenty of Gentile cities that don’t fit The 70 weeks of years that all but demands that the City Of Daniel is mystery Babylon. When did Babylon play the Harlot on the Lord? Never! Apostate Israel can’t be mystery Because she is everything mystery Babylon is supposed to be.
While the Old Testament speaks of Israel, the wife of Jehovah, as playing the harlot and engaging in spiritual adultery (worshiping other gods), Rev. 17 does not say Babylon played the harlot "on the Lord." A harlot is simply a woman who sells her favors for monetary gain.
 

Sowen

Well-Known Member
How did you figure out I just make up whatever I want?
Sorry, I'm not referring to you, anyone in particular, or to the matter of Babylon. I'm referring to the Bible reading method that I use, which is literal interpretation unless it's obviously not (based on context). And I'm stating why that Bible reading method is sound, which is: if we interpret the Bible figuratively when there's no cause to, we can make it say anything we want. My point in stating that was to give the reason why I think Babylon literally means Babylon. It wasn't a slight at anyone; it was just an explanation of my stance on the matter. :)

1. Sorry, I don't understand your point. We already know Israel is in judgment, so I don't see how this is an argument that Jerusalem is Babylon.

2. Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

3. Yes it's waiting to be fulfilled, and it is about Israel. However, that doesn't exclude the world. Scripture makes it clear that judgment is poured out on all nations during the tribulation, not just Israel. That would include all cities, not just Jerusalem.

It's worth noting, that each mention of "great city" in Revelation is defined within its context. Not every instance is Jerusalem.

4. Israel is Israel, not Babylon; so I don't see how this is relevant to Babylon. Yes, they're both likened to harlots, but that doesn't mean Jerusalem is Babylon. It simply means they're both like harlots.

5. I keep reading Amos and see that, in context, it means God is exhorting Israel to return to Him.
 

Jan51

Well-Known Member
3) do you believe the 70th Week of Daniel’s prophecy is waiting to be fulfilled? Who is the full 70 Weeks about?
While the prophecy of the 70 weeks was given to Daniel regarding his people, it is clear that the 70th week--the tribulation--is spoken of in various places in the Bible and all those passages must be considered and taken together to get a correct view. The purpose of the tribulation is two-fold: to purify Israel and bring her to recognize her Messiah, AND to pour out God's wrath on evil, on unbelieving man of that generation, on all nations (the Gentiles).
 
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