Are You Sure You Like Spurgeon?

myinnuendo999

Well-Known Member
ARE YOU SURE YOU LIKE SPURGEON?
"The doctrine of justification itself, as preached by an Arminian, is nothing but the doctrine of salvation by works..." -- C.H. Spurgeon
Praised by many evangelicals as a great preacher, Charles H. Spurgeon is considered a successful and "safe" example of a "non-theological" ministry. His works are recommended as a means to lead many aspiring pastors into developing their own successful ministries. His Lectures to My Students are often used for this purpose, emphasizing the "practical" aspects of evangelism. But while the form of Spurgeon's successful preaching is often studied by would-be pastors, the content of this Christian giant's preaching and teaching is often ignored. Rather Spurgeon is popularly thought to have heartily approved of the same theology that is presently dominating American culture: Arminianism.
Many Christian leaders, for instance, like to point out Spurgeon as one who also had no formal college training. They ignore the fact that he had a personal library containing more that 10,000 books.1 It is further argued that the success of his ministry in the mid-to-late 19th century was due to his anti-intellectual piety, "his yieldedness to the Spirit," and his Arminianism. The fact is, Spurgeon was not anti-intellectual, nor did he entertain delusions of being so holy that he could allow God to work only if he was "yielded." Most importantly, he was not an Arminian. He was a staunch Calvinist who opposed the dominant religious view of his day (and of ours), Arminianism.2 Even toward the end of his life he could write, "From this doctrine I have not departed to this day." 3 He was grateful that he never wavered from his Calvinism.4 "There is no soul living who holds more firmly to the doctrine of grace than do I..."5 Reading Spurgeon's beliefs, one will see that this tremendously fruitful ministry was built upon the preaching of the biblical gospel.
In his work, "A Defence of Calvinism," he states unequivocally: [T]here is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation
Here Spurgeon affirms his agreement with what are usually called "The Five Points of Calvinism." Spurgeon's own summation was much shorter: A Calvinist believes that salvation is of the Lord.7 Selections from his sermons and writings on these subjects make his position clear.
Regarding Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace:
When you say, "Can God make me become a Christian?" I tell you yes, for herein rests the power of the gospel. It does not ask your consent; but it gets it. It does not say, "Will you have it?" but it makes you willing in the day of God's power....The gospel wants not your consent, it gets it. It knocks the enmity out of your heart. You say, I do not want to be saved; Christ says you shall be. He makes our will turn round, and then you cry,"'Lord save, or I perish!"8
Regarding Unconditional Election:
I do not hesitate to say, that next to the doctrine of the crucifixion and the resurrection of our blessed Lord--no doctrine had such prominence in the early Christian Church as the doctrine of the election of grace.9 And when confronted with the discomfort this doctrine would bring, he responded with little sympathy: "'I do not like it [divine election],' saith one. Well, I thought you would not; whoever dreamed you would?"10
Regarding Particular Atonement:
f it was Christ's intention to save all men, how deplorably has he been disappointed, for we have His own testimony that there is a lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit of woe have been cast some of the very persons who, according to the theory of universal redemption, were bought with His blood.11
He has punished Christ, why should He punish twice for one offence? Christ has died for all His people's sins, and if thou art in the covenant, thou art one of Christ's people. Damned thou canst not be. Suffer for thy sins thou canst not. Until God can be unjust, and demand two payments for one debt, He cannot destroy the soul for whom Jesus died.12
Regarding the Perseverance of the Saints:
I do not know how some people, who believe that a Christian can fall from grace, manage to be happy. It must be a very commendable thing in them to be able to get through a day without despair. If I did not believe in the doctrine of the final perseverance of the saints, I think I should be of all men most miserable, because I should lack any ground of comfort.13

The selections above indicate that C. H. Spurgeon was without a doubt an affirmed, self-professing Calvinist who made his ministry's success dependent upon truth, unwilling to consider the "Five Points of Calvinism" as separate, sterile categories to be memorized and believed in isolation from each other or Scripture. He often blended the truths represented by the Five Points, because they actually are mutually supportive parts of a whole, and not five little sections of faith added to one's collection of Christian beliefs. Spurgeon never presented them as independent oddities to be believed as the sum of Christianity. Rather, he preached a positive gospel, ever mindful that these beliefs were only part of the whole counsel of God and not the sum total. These points were helpful, defensive summaries, but they did not take the place of the vast theater of redemption within which God's complete and eternal plan was worked out in the Old and New Testaments.
Certain that the Cross was an offense and stumbling block, Spurgeon was unwilling to make the gospel more acceptable to the lost. "The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, is the truth that I must preach today, or else be false to my conscience and to God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine."14 Elsewhere he challenged "I cannot find in Scripture any other doctrine than this. It is the essence of the Bible....Tell me anything contrary to this truth, and it will be heresy..."15 Spurgeon believed that the price of ridicule and rejection was not counted so high that he should refuse to preach this gospel: "[W]e are reckoned the scum of creation; scarcely a minister looks on us or speaks favorable of us, because we hold strong vies upon the divine sovereignty of God, and his divine electings and special love towards His own people."16
Then, as now, the dominant objection to such preaching was that it would lead to licentious living. Since Christ "did it all," there was no need for them to obey the commands of Scripture. Aside from the fact that we should not let sinful people decide what kind of gospel we will preach, Spurgeon had his own rebuttals to this confusion:
t is often said that the doctrines we believe have a tendency to lead us to sin....I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the systems of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles....We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, "Where will you find holier and better men in the world?"17
His attitude toward those who would distort the gospel for their own ideas of "holiness" is clear from the following: No doctrine is so calculated to preserve a man from sin as the doctrine of the grace of God. Those who have called it 'a licentious doctrine' did not know anything at all about it. Poor ignorant things, they little knew that their own vile stuff was the most licentious doctrine under Heaven.18
According to Spurgeon (and Scripture as well), the response of gratitude is the motive for holy living, not the uncertain status of the believer under the influence of Arminianism and its accompanying legalism. "The tendency of Arminianism is towards legality; it is nothing but legality which lays at the root of Arminianism."19 He was very clear on the dangerous relationship of Arminianism to legalism: "Do you not see at once that this is legality--that this is hanging our salvation upon our work--that this is making our eternal life to depend upon something we do? Nay, the doctrine of justification itself, as preached by an Arminianism, is nothing but the doctrine of salvation by works...."20
A status before God based upon how we "use" Christ and the Spirit to feign righteousness was a legalism hated by Spurgeon. As in our day, Spurgeon saw that one of the strongholds of Arminianism included the independent churches.21 Arminianism was a natural, God-rejecting, self-exalting religion and heresy.22 As Spurgeon believed, we are born Arminians by nature.23 He saw this natural aversion to God as encouraged by believing self-centered, self-exalting fancies. "If you believe that everything turns upon the free-will of man, you will naturally have man as its principal figure in your landscape."24 And again he affirms the remedy for this confusion to be true doctrine. "I believe that very much of current Arminianism is simply ignorance of gospel doctrine."25 Further, "I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
This article is typical; of the selective editing of Spurgeon's work that Calvinists like to engage in. They ignore passages that put the aforementioned statements, taken totally out of context, into balance.\

Here's a paragraph from the same work that the author cited above, that gives a differing view of Spurgeon's beliefs:

I do not think I differ from any of my Hyper-Calvinistic brethren in what I do believe, but I differ from them in what they do not believe. I do not hold any less than they do, but I hold a little more, and, I think, a little more of the truth revealed in the Scriptures. Not only are there a few cardinal doctrines, by which we can steer our ship North, South, East, or West, but as we study the Word, we shall begin to learn something about the North-west and North-east, and all else that lies between the four cardinal points. The system of truth revealed in the Scriptures is not simply one straight line, but two; and no man will ever get a right view of the gospel until he knows how to look at the two lines at once. For instance, I read in one Book of the Bible, "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Yet I am taught, in another part of the same inspired Word, that "it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." I see, in one place, God in providence presiding over all, and yet I see, and I cannot help seeing, that man acts as he pleases, and that God has left his actions, in a great measure, to his own free-will. If, then, I find taught in one part of the Bible that everything is fore-ordained, that is true; and if I find, in another Scripture, that man is responsible for all his actions, that is true; and it is only my folly that leads me to imagine that these two truths can ever contradict each other. I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.
Spurgeon found the balance in Scripture. Alan Maben, the writer of the article cited in the OP, cherry-picked certain statements of Spurgeon in order to construct his pro-TULIP Calvinist argument. But cherry-picking a man's statements leads you to as false a belief as cherry-picking scriptures.
 

Any Minute

Tetelestai !!
:scratch: Are you posting this in support of Spurgeon and his doctrines or to point out that he was a Calvinist? Is there a link to the rest because it ended with
" 25 Further, "I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have" ?
 

arapahoepark

Well-Known Member
This article is typical; of the selective editing of Spurgeon's work that Calvinists like to engage in. They ignore passages that put the aforementioned statements, taken totally out of context, into balance.\

Here's a paragraph from the same work that the author cited above, that gives a differing view of Spurgeon's beliefs:



Spurgeon found the balance in Scripture. Alan Maben, the writer of the article cited in the OP, cherry-picked certain statements of Spurgeon in order to construct his pro-TULIP Calvinist argument. But cherry-picking a man's statements leads you to as false a belief as cherry-picking scriptures.
As much as I hate to say this here: Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist.

I am really sorry to bring this up, but every one mis-characterizes calvinism. I have said this before Hyper-Calvinism is basically anti-calvinist.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
:scratch: Are you posting this in support of Spurgeon and his doctrines or to point out that he was a Calvinist? Is there a link to the rest because it ended with
" 25 Further, "I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have" ?
Bro, myinnuendo accidentally must have left off the last few lines of Alan Maben's article. The concluding lines are:

25 Further, "I do not serve the god of the Arminians at all; I have nothing to do with him, and I do not bow down before the Baal they have set up; he is not my God, nor shall he ever be; I fear him not, nor tremble at his presence...The God that saith today and denieth tomorrow, that justifieth today and condemns the next...is no relation to my God in the least degree. He may be a relation of Ashtaroth or Baal, but Jehovah never was or can be his name."26 Refusing to compromise the gospel in any way, he soundly refuted and rejected common attempts to unite Calvinism and Arminianism into a synthesized belief. Nor would he downplay the importance of the differences between the two systems:

This may seem to you to be of little consequence, but it really is a matter of life and death. I would plead with every Christian--think it over, my dear brother. When some of us preach Calvinism, and some Arminianism, we cannot both be right; it is of not use trying to think we can be--'Yes,' and 'no,' cannot both be true.Truth does not vacillate like the pendulum which shakes backwards and forwards....One must be right; the other wrong.27
As you can see from Mr. Maben's last sentence, he totally missed the point of what Mr. Spurgeon had to say. This is why I like the Prooportion Theology of Buzz's. It holds the middle course between John Calvin and Jacob Arminius. Both sides are true ... just as Spurgeon says. But we cannot separate them. Unfortunately the Arminians try to. And so do the Calvinists. Since they like to champion Spurgeon, they should try accepting his entire belief, not just some parts of one article that seeks to put a balance on the issue.

BTW: Arguments for exclusive Calvinism are not permitted on this board ... anymore than arguments for exclusive Arminianism. There is far too much arguing for men's positions rather than for the Word of God itself, unfiltered by some other man's mind. If this degenerates into a defense of Calvinism, then the thread will be removed.
 

Any Minute

Tetelestai !!
Thanks for filling that in Matt, I was left hanging there.:lol:

BTW, I have read Buzz's posts on proportion theology and I too hold to a more balanced view, recognizing the truths of each position but rejecting the extremes.
I wouldn't say either side worships a different God though as long as they hold to the basic tenents of the Christian faith, their theology and understanding of His word might not flow well though. I do learn from fellow brothers and sisters from both camps even though I might not always agree.
 

anath

I Love the Lord
'I do not believe they can ever be welded into one upon any earthly anvil, but they certainly shall be one in eternity. They are two lines that are so nearly parallel, that the human mind which pursues them farthest will never discover that they converge, but they do converge, and they will meet somewhere in eternity, close to the throne of God, whence all truth doth spring.'

:thumbup How Spurgeon sums it up is good enough for me
 

SteveJM

Well-Known Member
Mattfivefour-BTW: Arguments for exclusive Calvinism are not permitted on this board ... anymore than arguments for exclusive Arminianism. There is far too much arguing for men's positions rather than for the Word of God itself, unfiltered by some other man's mind. If this degenerates into a defense of Calvinism, then the thread will be removed.
I'll just flat out say that I'm not a Calvinist and I reject Calvinism. I'm not an Arminian either. I'm more a modified Arminian than a modified Calvinist.

From “Chosen by God,” by R.C.Sproul-

“The only answer I can give to this question is that I don’t know. I have no idea why God saves some but not all. I don’t doubt for a moment that God has the power to save all, but I know that he does not choose to save all. I don’t know why.”

In my opinion the reason that R.C. Sproul can’t answer the question is because his Calvinistic theology is flawed. Think of all the implications of Sproul's view.

Free Will Baptist, A.B. Brown wrote, " The key that opens all the doors is the right key."

The Calvinist's key has some teeth to it but it fails to open all the doors. They have a nice little neat package that they like to box God in, but it utterly fails to harmonize all of scripture. They believe that they are the great defenders of God's Sovereignty, that they have a higher opinion of God. I strongly disagree. My understanding of God is that we can't even comprehend His greatness and abilities for they are limitless. The God that I believe in, is great enough to allow me a free will and still accomplish His own will, and also,
"... that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Calvinists will say that they are the called, the elect. How can they know for sure? How can they every truly have assurance of their salvation? How do they know that they will not be told by Jesus, "I never knew you." If one believes in total depravity the way that the five point calvinist does they are incapable of choosing Jesus Christ. God must save them first, before they can choose.

Here is an article that the Calvinist may want to consider, it's from Thomas Taylor, where he expresses the implications of Calvinism, a theology that he and I oppose.

Thomas Taylor (1738-1816) writes, in his seminal work, “A Solemn Caution Against the Ten Horns of Calvinism" (1819):

“There is no such thing as sin in the world. Everything is just going on as he would have it to be; all are acting in the department of life which is appointed. Therefore, go, ye jolly drunkards, and jovial song-singers; proceed, ye numerous tribes of profane swearers and Sabbath-breakers; curse on, ye horrid blasphemers and swarms of liars; ye murderers, plunderers unclean profligates, ye are all doing the will of God, answering the great ends for which you were made.”

Taylor continues:

“If ye be ordained to turn, ye shall turn; if not, all his [the preacher] zeal will avail no more than a tinkling cymbal. Therefore, he that is praying, and he that is preaching; he that is speaking the truth, and he that is lying; he that is laboring honestly, and he that is stealing; he that is chaste, and he that is impure; he that is over-reaching, and he that deals honestly; he that sings the songs of Zion, and he that sings the songs of Satan, in a word, he that is converted, and he that is unconverted; he that is a believer, and he that is an unbeliever; are all doing the will of God … all things are just in the state and condition which God has appointed and all are just doing what his will is, and then there is no such thing as sin in the world.”

If you're reformed/Calvinist in your understanding, you now know, if you didn't already, that I'm not. I believe that Salvation is available and possible for all. Those who choose are the elect.

John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?"

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Here's a question- If mankind is totally depraved in the way that the reformed/calvinist believe, then how can that be? In Romans we are told of what is "CLEARLY SEEN" and "BEING UNDERSTOOD," and that we are all without excuse.

It may be that arguments for exclusive Calvinism are not permitted on this board, but from I've seen there is a continual drip and annoying peck of these arguments here.

Have a blessed day!
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I'll just flat out say that I'm not a Calvinist and I reject Calvinism. I'm not an Arminian either. I'm more a modified Arminian than a modified Calvinist.

From “Chosen by God,” by R.C.Sproul-

“The only answer I can give to this question is that I don’t know. I have no idea why God saves some but not all. I don’t doubt for a moment that God has the power to save all, but I know that he does not choose to save all. I don’t know why.”

In my opinion the reason that R.C. Sproul can’t answer the question is because his Calvinistic theology is flawed. Think of all the implications of Sproul's view.

Free Will Baptist, A.B. Brown wrote, " The key that opens all the doors is the right key."

The Calvinist's key has some teeth to it but it fails to open all the doors. They have a nice little neat package that they like to box God in, but it utterly fails to harmonize all of scripture. They believe that they are the great defenders of God's Sovereignty, that they have a higher opinion of God. I strongly disagree. My understanding of God is that we can't even comprehend His greatness and abilities for they are limitless. The God that I believe in, is great enough to allow me a free will and still accomplish His own will, and also,
"... that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Calvinists will say that they are the called, the elect. How can they know for sure? How can they every truly have assurance of their salvation? How do they know that they will not be told by Jesus, "I never knew you." If one believes in total depravity the way that the five point calvinist does they are incapable of choosing Jesus Christ. God must save them first, before they can choose.

Here is an article that the Calvinist may want to consider, it's from Thomas Taylor, where he expresses the implications of Calvinism, a theology that he and I oppose.

Thomas Taylor (1738-1816) writes, in his seminal work, “A Solemn Caution Against the Ten Horns of Calvinism" (1819):

“There is no such thing as sin in the world. Everything is just going on as he would have it to be; all are acting in the department of life which is appointed. Therefore, go, ye jolly drunkards, and jovial song-singers; proceed, ye numerous tribes of profane swearers and Sabbath-breakers; curse on, ye horrid blasphemers and swarms of liars; ye murderers, plunderers unclean profligates, ye are all doing the will of God, answering the great ends for which you were made.”

Taylor continues:

“If ye be ordained to turn, ye shall turn; if not, all his [the preacher] zeal will avail no more than a tinkling cymbal. Therefore, he that is praying, and he that is preaching; he that is speaking the truth, and he that is lying; he that is laboring honestly, and he that is stealing; he that is chaste, and he that is impure; he that is over-reaching, and he that deals honestly; he that sings the songs of Zion, and he that sings the songs of Satan, in a word, he that is converted, and he that is unconverted; he that is a believer, and he that is an unbeliever; are all doing the will of God … all things are just in the state and condition which God has appointed and all are just doing what his will is, and then there is no such thing as sin in the world.”

If you're reformed/Calvinist in your understanding, you now know, if you didn't already, that I'm not. I believe that Salvation is available and possible for all. Those who choose are the elect.

John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?"

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Here's a question- If mankind is totally depraved in the way that the reformed/calvinist believe, then how can that be? In Romans we are told of what is "CLEARLY SEEN" and "BEING UNDERSTOOD," and that we are all without excuse.

It may be that arguments for exclusive Calvinism are not permitted on this board, but from I've seen there is a continual drip and annoying peck of these arguments here.

Have a blessed day!
Yes, it is time to turn off the drip at the faucet. :nod

God wishes that none shall perish but then chooses not to save some? This is strained and strange logic of Calvinism and I will say it is a heresy that is creeping more and more into the church today. We won't let it take hold here. Calvinism and Arminianism are not welcome here. We go by the Bible, not clay man doctrines and favorite teachings.

This is a conservative, fundamentalist, and evangelical website. We stick with the solid 1st century teachings of the Lord. :thumbup
 

JC1949

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is time to turn off the drip at the faucet. :nod

God wishes that none shall perish but then chooses not to save some? This is strained and strange logic of Calvinism and I will say it is a heresy that is creeping more and more into the church today. We won't let it take hold here. Calvinism and Arminianism are not welcome here. We go by the Bible, not clay man doctrines and favorite teachings.

This is a conservative, fundamentalist, and evangelical website. We stick with the solid 1st century teachings of the Lord. :thumbup

Yep bro'
There is so much contention going on.....a bit everywhere....
I am glad Jesus gave His life on the cross for me and you and everyone else ..THE ALL WORLD...
may be if we just preach HIS GOSPEL and leave the results to HIM....may be we might see mighty salvations more often....

btw I just update my home page: jesusgrace.net - Home

Shalom:hat::hat::hat:
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
If man is Totally Depraved then he cannot be pre-selected or favored for salvation; but if some people are pre-selected for salvation that is not Total Depravity for them; more like 99.9% depraved (except for the pre-selected salvation part)

Total Depravity cannot totally exist in the Calvie's paradigm.

Only those selected for eternal hell are definitely 100% depraved.

Bro, myinnuendo accidentally must have left off the last few lines of Alan Maben's article. The concluding lines are:
Accidentally or deception? :scratch:

From “Chosen by God,” by R.C.Sproul-

“The only answer I can give to this question is that I don’t know. :joker I have no idea why God saves some but not all. I don’t doubt for a moment that God has the power to save all, but I know that he does not choose to save all. I don’t know why.”
Sproul is a .5% percenter, does not know why God skips many for hell and then judges them for not accepting Christ. :doh:

But Sproul will speak on Pharaoh and how his God picked him for hell. :surprised
In my opinion the reason that R.C. Sproul can’t answer the question is because his Calvinistic theology is flawed. Think of all the implications of Sproul's view.

Free Will Baptist, A.B. Brown wrote, " The key that opens all the doors is the right key."

The Calvinist's key has some teeth to it but it fails to open all the doors. They have a nice little neat package that they like to box God in, but it utterly fails to harmonize all of scripture. They believe that they are the great defenders of God's Sovereignty, that they have a higher opinion of God. I strongly disagree. My understanding of God is that we can't even comprehend His greatness and abilities for they are limitless. The God that I believe in, is great enough to allow me a free will and still accomplish His own will, and also,
"... that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Calvinists will say that they are the called, the elect. How can they know for sure? How can they every truly have assurance of their salvation? How do they know that they will not be told by Jesus, "I never knew you." If one believes in total depravity the way that the five point calvinist does they are incapable of choosing Jesus Christ. God must save them first, before they can choose.
Calvinist's TD is not TD of scripture but their own TD from their own Calvin god in their own image.
Here is an article that the Calvinist may want to consider, it's from Thomas Taylor, where he expresses the implications of Calvinism, a theology that he and I oppose.

Thomas Taylor (1738-1816) writes, in his seminal work, “A Solemn Caution Against the Ten Horns of Calvinism" (1819):

“There is no such thing as sin in the world. Everything is just going on as he would have it to be; all are acting in the department of life which is appointed. Therefore, go, ye jolly drunkards, and jovial song-singers; proceed, ye numerous tribes of profane swearers and Sabbath-breakers; curse on, ye horrid blasphemers and swarms of liars; ye murderers, plunderers unclean profligates, ye are all doing the will of God, answering the great ends for which you were made.”

Taylor continues:

“If ye be ordained to turn, ye shall turn; if not, all his [the preacher] zeal will avail no more than a tinkling cymbal. Therefore, he that is praying, and he that is preaching; he that is speaking the truth, and he that is lying; he that is laboring honestly, and he that is stealing; he that is chaste, and he that is impure; he that is over-reaching, and he that deals honestly; he that sings the songs of Zion, and he that sings the songs of Satan, in a word, he that is converted, and he that is unconverted; he that is a believer, and he that is an unbeliever; are all doing the will of God … all things are just in the state and condition which God has appointed and all are just doing what his will is, and then there is no such thing as sin in the world.”

If you're reformed/Calvinist in your understanding, you now know, if you didn't already, that I'm not. I believe that Salvation is available and possible for all. Those who choose are the elect.

John 12:32
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord GOD. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Ezekiel 33:11
"Say to them, ‘As I live!’ declares the Lord GOD, ‘I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn back, turn back from your evil ways! Why then will you die, O house of Israel?"

Romans 1:20
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

Here's a question- If mankind is totally depraved in the way that the reformed/calvinist believe, then how can that be? In Romans we are told of what is "CLEARLY SEEN" and "BEING UNDERSTOOD," and that we are all without excuse.

It may be that arguments for exclusive Calvinism are not permitted on this board, but from I've seen there is a continual drip and annoying peck of these arguments here.

Have a blessed day!
As much as I hate to say this here: Spurgeon was a Reformed Baptist.

I am really sorry to bring this up, but every one mis-characterizes calvinism. I have said this before Hyper-Calvinism is basically anti-calvinist.
And what if the true understanding of Calvinism turns out to be unscriptural and out of God's character as we know of God from the whole counsel of scripture? The reformers, hypers, and 5-pointers need a "complete reformation" not just a fence sitting.

And Baptist only means you get wet; does not guarantee salvation.
 
Last edited:

Meg

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is time to turn off the drip at the faucet. :nod

God wishes that none shall perish but then chooses not to save some? This is strained and strange logic of Calvinism and I will say it is a heresy that is creeping more and more into the church today. We won't let it take hold here. Calvinism and Arminianism are not welcome here. We go by the Bible, not clay man doctrines and favorite teachings.

This is a conservative, fundamentalist, and evangelical website. We stick with the solid 1st century teachings of the Lord. :thumbup
:preach :preach :preach
 

Patiently...

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is time to turn off the drip at the faucet. :nod

God wishes that none shall perish but then chooses not to save some? This is strained and strange logic of Calvinism and I will say it is a heresy that is creeping more and more into the church today. We won't let it take hold here. Calvinism and Arminianism are not welcome here. We go by the Bible, not clay man doctrines and favorite teachings.

This is a conservative, fundamentalist, and evangelical website. We stick with the solid 1st century teachings of the Lord. :thumbup

I remember distinctly almost 40 years ago, a morning in Sunday school. I was about 12 years old and a very baby Christian. There was a substitute teacher that day. Someone visiting her family. I cannot remember the lesson. What I do remember is her saying "And some people are born to go to hell."
I was terrified. I thought "What if I'm one of those persons? God would you do this?" That afternoon I asked my Mom about it. She was furious, asking where I had heard that. I told her and she began
assuring me that no that was not true. I remember her anger about it being such a comfort to me.
 

BuzzardHut

Bird Mod
I remember distinctly almost 40 years ago, a morning in Sunday school. I was about 12 years old and a very baby Christian. There was a substutute teacher that day. Someone visiting her family. I cannot remember the lesson. What I do remember is her saying "And some people are born to go to hell."
I was terrified. I thought "What if I'm one of those persons? God would you do this?" That afternoon I asked my Mom about it. She was furious, asking where I had heard that. I told her and she began
assuring me that no that was not true. I remember her anger about it being such a comfort to me.
It is either true or Spurgeon, Sproul, and the Calvies are confused liars; they seem to have a good grasp on the cults and apostasy but ignore the overgrowth in their own backyard. :eek:scar:
 
Top