Another proof for a pre-trib rapture

Eastxn

Member
I had a very interesting discussion recently with a buddy of mine who is also pre-trib. He made an argument about the Church not being present during the Tribulation that I hadn't thought of before. He brought up these two verses:

1 Thes. 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Rev 13:25
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

Then he said "How can there be Christians who are alive and remain if they're all dead because they refused to worship the beast?"

I thought that was pretty profound and thought I'd share it with y'all.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Well I meant to post this in the rapture, bible prophesy, and end times forum but I wasn't paying attention

I've done that a few times myself. :lol. If you like you can "report" your own post and just ask in the text box for it to be moved. :)



Loved what you shared about Rev. and Thess.! Great connection your buddy noticed!

It's so amazing how the bible as a whole has all the pieces we need to see the picture more clearly. There's such a consistent flow and harmony of scripture.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I had a very interesting discussion recently with a buddy of mine who is also pre-trib. He made an argument about the Church not being present during the Tribulation that I hadn't thought of before. He brought up these two verses:

1 Thes. 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Rev 13:25
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

Then he said "How can there be Christians who are alive and remain if they're all dead because they refused to worship the beast?"

I thought that was pretty profound and thought I'd share it with y'all.
Im a little confused. Are you saying there are no Christians alive after the MOB is implemented?

There will be believers at the end of the tribulation who survive, and enter into the Millennial kingdom in their saved, but earthly body. Scripture is clear on this because Jesus will conduct the sheep and goat judgement upon His return at the end of the tribulation.

Matthew 25

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me,you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
 

Graceismine

Member
I had a very interesting discussion recently with a buddy of mine who is also pre-trib. He made an argument about the Church not being present during the Tribulation that I hadn't thought of before. He brought up these two verses:

1 Thes. 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Rev 13:25
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

Then he said "How can there be Christians who are alive and remain if they're all dead because they refused to worship the beast?"

I thought that was pretty profound and thought I'd share it with y'all.
I had a very interesting discussion recently with a buddy of mine who is also pre-trib. He made an argument about the Church not being present during the Tribulation that I hadn't thought of before. He brought up these two verses:

1 Thes. 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Rev 13:25
“And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.”

Then he said "How can there be Christians who are alive and remain if they're all dead because they refused to worship the beast?"

I thought that was pretty profound and thought I'd share it with y'a
 

Graceismine

Member
The Thessalonians verse that you show is out of context. Verse 16 says, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. It goes on to say next verse, Then we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. This speaks of those believers who are this side of The Tribulation. Rev 13:25 refers to what is happening after the rapture has taken place. The Thessalonians Scriptures do not refer to a time in The Tribulation. I hope I understand what you were saying. Sorry if I didn’t.
 

Matthew6:33

Withstand in the evil day. Eph 6:13
As mentioned above, it is an interesting thought but I think the argument is weak because of the context. In 1 Thessalonians, Paul is speaking to the church in Thessalonica who were afraid (because of false teaching) that they were living in the Tribulation and they got left behind (interestingly, this reveals they had a prior knowledge of the rapture, further strengthening the rapture doctrine).

The revelation verse is still future after the rapture (Paul was explaining rapture doctrine in the Thessalonian epistles prior to John's revelation).

There will be Christians in the Tribulation. They will most likely be martyred. The focus will be Israel, 2/3 of the Jews will be killed, the remaining 1/3 will believe in Christ and be saved (I am going off memory here, but someone can correct me if I am wrong).

I think a stronger argument for the Church being gone (raptured) is that ekklesia (church) is not mentioned after Rev 3 (except Rev 22 where Jesus said He dispatched His angel to John so he could testify these things to the Churches).

Again, context is key.
 

Eastxn

Member
The Thessalonians verse that you show is out of context. Verse 16 says, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. It goes on to say next verse, Then we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. This speaks of those believers who are this side of The Tribulation. Rev 13:25 refers to what is happening after the rapture has taken place. The Thessalonians Scriptures do not refer to a time in The Tribulation. I hope I understand what you were saying. Sorry if I didn’t.
My apologies I guess I wasn't clear. I was trying to show just what you're saying...that the Church cannot be in the tribulation because they would be martyred for their faith, which would render the thess. verse invalid since none were left alive. Does that make it clearer?
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
My apologies I guess I wasn't clear. I was trying to show just what you're saying...that the Church cannot be in the tribulation because they would be martyred for their faith, which would render the thess. verse invalid since none were left alive. Does that make it clearer?
Thanks for replying.
 

Everlasting Life

Through Faith in Jesus
Interesting discussion. It sounds like by the end of the Tribulation there's not going to be very many people left and since Christ is returning to earth to stay....it still doesn't line up that the Rapture would happen after the tribulation is over as some like to argue (which I think that's the point Eastxn is trying to make).


I've always thought this passage from Isaiah was interesting:

Judgment on the Earth

Behold, the Lord lays waste to the earth, devastates it, twists and distorts its face and scatters its inhabitants. And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor [as God’s impartial judgment of sin comes on all]. The earth will be completely laid waste and utterly pillaged, for the Lord has spoken this word. The earth dries up and crumbles away, the world dries out and crumbles away, the exalted of the people of the earth fade away. The earth also is polluted by its inhabitants, because they have transgressed laws, violated statutes, and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore, a curse devours the earth, and those who live on it suffer the punishment of their guilt. Therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned [under the curse of God’s wrath], and few people are left.

Isaiah 24:1-6


I wonder if this is part of why Jesus said, ".....But when the Son of Man returns, how many will he find on the earth who have faith?”

Luke 18:8

What do you all think?



Here's a few of passages from Revelation that might be of interest to this discussion:

After this I saw a vast crowd, too great to count, from every nation and tribe and people and language, standing in front of the throne and before the Lamb. They were clothed in white robes and held palm branches in their hands. And they were shouting with a great roar,

“Salvation comes from our God who sits on the throne
and from the Lamb!”

....Then one of the twenty-four elders asked me, “Who are these who are clothed in white? Where did they come from?”



And I said to him, “Sir, you are the one who knows.”

Then he said to me, “These are the ones who died in the great tribulation. They have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb and made them white.


Revelation 7:9-10, 13-14



And he is given power to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast will even [appear to] speak, and cause those who do not bow down and worship the image of the beast to be put to death.

Revelation 13:15


The Angel with the Gospel

Then I saw another angel flying in midheaven, with an eternal gospel to preach to the inhabitants of the earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people; and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God [with awe and reverence], and give Him glory [and honor and praise in worship], because the hour of His judgment has come; [with all your heart] worship Him who created the heaven and the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” Revelation 14:6-7 AMP
 

Graceismine

Member
daygo …..Understanding what you said now and agree.

I don’t think I understand the reply button very well. In my absence I forgot how I guess.
 
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