Ammunition.

GEOINTAnalyst

Well-Known Member
as a Christian (and as a minister as well)-- is whether opting for something that will seriously wound but not necessarily kill is a more ethical choice for my self-defence and the protection of my loved ones and property than ammunition that will almost certainly send the attacker into eternity ... lost
Ecclesiastes 3 has some good advice - a time to kill - if you use a weapon to defend yourself such as a home intrusion always kill never wound - a wounded person like an animal is always more vicious when wounded since the survival mode is kicked in to high gear if they are alive now you will have to subdue them until the police arrive - it seems obvious to me the intruder has made their choice apart from God when they chose to break in - if they are dead you and your family are safe, the bad guy can do no more
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Thank you, everybody, for your input. I've decided on stopping power outstripping any other concern for defense purposes. After a lot of research I have purchased Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 124gr +P for my service pistol at home. When I get my Illinois concealed carry permit and begin carrying a small weapon, I will likely use Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX rounds in it.
 

Armor of Light

Praising my Savior all the day long!
Thank you, everybody, for your input. I've decided on stopping power outstripping any other concern for defense purposes. After a lot of research I have purchased Hornady Critical Duty 9mm 124gr +P for my service pistol at home. When I get my Illinois concealed carry permit and begin carrying a small weapon, I will likely use Hornady Critical Defense 115gr FTX rounds in it.
I like Hornady Critical Defense, that is the round we use for pistol/revolver home defense, have viewed many ballistic gel tests and it packs more than a punch in every caliber I have seen go through the tests, very accurate round too. Also like Buffalo Bore ammo, probably the strongest rounds I've fired in our hand guns.
 

3 Nails 4 Given

Sinner saved by the blood of Jesus
Ecclesiastes 3 has some good advice - a time to kill - if you use a weapon to defend yourself such as a home intrusion always kill never wound - a wounded person like an animal is always more vicious when wounded since the survival mode is kicked in to high gear if they are alive now you will have to subdue them until the police arrive - it seems obvious to me the intruder has made their choice apart from God when they chose to break in - if they are dead you and your family are safe, the bad guy can do no more
Ecclesiastes was written in a time when the rule of law was duly applied. You use that BC defense in a AD modern courtroom and you are going to have plenty of time write your memoirs from your cell.
 

DWB

Well-Known Member
For home defence I have a 9mm service pistol. As soon as I get my concealed carry permit I'll carry a smaller 9 mil whenever I'm out. My question as a Christian concerns ammunition for both. I know that a hollow point +P 115 or 124 grain should stop most attackers and may well leave them able to eventually recover. In other words, death is not certain. But, of course, the stopping power is not necessarily guaranteed ... depending on where you hit them, how close they are, etc. The other option is something like the Winchester PDX1 Defender 148 grain hollow point that is almost guaranteed to stop an attacker, in all likelihood permanently. In other words the bullets would most likely kill them. My conflict --as a Christian (and as a minister as well)-- is whether opting for something that will seriously wound but not necessarily kill is a more ethical choice for my self-defence and the protection of my loved ones and property than ammunition that will almost certainly send the attacker into eternity ... lost. I know many may think this is a foolish conundrum. They'd say that the attacker chose his or her path, so don't worry about them; just do what is safest for you. But sending someone into ETERNITY lost is not something light to me. And I really am struggling with the choice.
The only time to ever draw your weapon and shoot is in a life or death situation. In that situation your objective is to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. My training for my carry permit recommended two shots to center mass and one to the head. Shooting to wound will only give your attacker extra time to harm you or your loved ones. I recently saw a police cam video of a deputy shooting an attacker 9 times with a 9mm before he stopped. The attacker was armed with a knife, if it was a gun he could have easily shot the deputy during those 9 shots to the body. So it sounds harsh and cruel, but the idea is to protect yourself and your family.
 

3 Nails 4 Given

Sinner saved by the blood of Jesus
The only time to ever draw your weapon and shoot is in a life or death situation. In that situation your objective is to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible. My training for my carry permit recommended two shots to center mass and one to the head. Shooting to wound will only give your attacker extra time to harm you or your loved ones. I recently saw a police cam video of a deputy shooting an attacker 9 times with a 9mm before he stopped. The attacker was armed with a knife, if it was a gun he could have easily shot the deputy during those 9 shots to the body. So it sounds harsh and cruel, but the idea is to protect yourself and your family.
I’m going to post one last time on this subject. I have twenty four years service with the US Department of Justice, four years service with the State of Florida, and Two years training with the US Coast Guard. So I have 30 years of armed training. I have trained with some of the finest officers in tactical response training during my career.

Anybody teaching the use of head shots in a self defense course is wrong. It’s not taught in NRA sanctioned self defense training. It is reserved for trained tactical operators in special operations conditions.

A head shot is considered a kill shot and no police agency is going to teach that to a patrol officer. It may be taught to certain troops in combat situations, but it is not taught to patrol officers.

A good Prosecutor will send you to prison if they can trap your testimony into the use of kill shots.
Again watch the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. The prosecutor every time he referred to Rittenhouse shooting, he used the terminology, kill shots.

Rittenhouse had good attorneys who had obviously instructed him to reply every time, no sir, I shot to Stop, or I shot to Eliminate the threat.
 

GEOINTAnalyst

Well-Known Member
Ecclesiastes was written in a time when the rule of law was duly applied. You use that BC defense in a AD modern courtroom and you are going to have plenty of time write your memoirs from your cell.
Doubt it - if someone is breaking into my house and I kill them that is self defense - it is called the "Castle Doctrine" The Castle Doctrine and “stand-your-ground” laws are affirmative defenses for individuals charged with criminal homicide. The Castle Doctrine is a common law doctrine stating that an individual has no duty to retreat when in his or her home, or “castle,” and may use reasonable force, including deadly force, to defend his or her property, person, or another. Outside of the “castle,” however, an individual has a duty to retreat, if able to do so, before using reasonable force. Stand-your-ground laws, by comparison, remove the common law requirement to retreat outside of one's “castle,” allowing an individual to use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat. Deadly force is reasonable under stand-your-ground laws in certain circumstances, such as imminent great bodily harm or death.
Florida courts have interpreted the legislature's creation of a stand-your-ground law as creating an affirmative defense, expanding the right of self-defense and abolishing the common law “duty to retreat” when a person uses deadly force in self-defense to prevent imminent great bodily harm or death - see (Dorsey v. State, 74 So.3d 521 (2011)
- yes there will be an inquiry but no jail- unless you live in California, Oregon or New Mexico they have no castle doctrine laws there
 

GEOINTAnalyst

Well-Known Member
Anybody teaching the use of head shots in a self defense course is wrong. It’s not taught in NRA sanctioned self defense training. It is reserved for trained tactical operators in special operations conditions.
That is correct - the only place I know of that teaches head shots is the Military but that is a completely different form of training and not designed for self-defense but offense - we use to call it "two in the chest one in the head" because of body armor - if they enemy has body armor the two in the chest knocks them down the one in the head finishes the job.
 

DWB

Well-Known Member
I’m going to post one last time on this subject. I have twenty four years service with the US Department of Justice, four years service with the State of Florida, and Two years training with the US Coast Guard. So I have 30 years of armed training. I have trained with some of the finest officers in tactical response training during my career.

Anybody teaching the use of head shots in a self defense course is wrong. It’s not taught in NRA sanctioned self defense training. It is reserved for trained tactical operators in special operations conditions.

A head shot is considered a kill shot and no police agency is going to teach that to a patrol officer. It may be taught to certain troops in combat situations, but it is not taught to patrol officers.

A good Prosecutor will send you to prison if they can trap your testimony into the use of kill shots.
Again watch the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. The prosecutor every time he referred to Rittenhouse shooting, he used the terminology, kill shots.

Rittenhouse had good attorneys who had obviously instructed him to reply every time, no sir, I shot to Stop, or I shot to Eliminate the threat.
 

DWB

Well-Known Member
I’m going to post one last time on this subject. I have twenty four years service with the US Department of Justice, four years service with the State of Florida, and Two years training with the US Coast Guard. So I have 30 years of armed training. I have trained with some of the finest officers in tactical response training during my career.

Anybody teaching the use of head shots in a self defense course is wrong. It’s not taught in NRA sanctioned self defense training. It is reserved for trained tactical operators in special operations conditions.

A head shot is considered a kill shot and no police agency is going to teach that to a patrol officer. It may be taught to certain troops in combat situations, but it is not taught to patrol officers.

A good Prosecutor will send you to prison if they can trap your testimony into the use of kill shots.
Again watch the Kyle Rittenhouse trial. The prosecutor every time he referred to Rittenhouse shooting, he used the terminology, kill shots.

Rittenhouse had good attorneys who had obviously instructed him to reply every time, no sir, I shot to Stop, or I shot to Eliminate the threat.
Thanks for the info. I was only relaying what my state approved instructor taught in my permit class. The state is Tennessee. My apologies if this info is not correct.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
A head shot is considered a kill shot and no police agency is going to teach that to a patrol officer. It may be taught to certain troops in combat situations, but it is not taught to patrol officers

When I went through a police academy, we weren't taught to shoot at the head, but not because it was a kill shot, we were taught to aim for center of the largest mass, the chest, because the target was bigger and it is also a kill zone. We were taught to shoot to kill if we feel compelled to shoot. This was around 1980 or so. We had bullet proof vests back then, but I don't think body armor was common. Today it might be a good practice to finish the target off with one to the head after two to the chest.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Doubt it - if someone is breaking into my house and I kill them that is self defense - it is called the "Castle Doctrine" The Castle Doctrine and “stand-your-ground” laws are affirmative defenses for individuals charged with criminal homicide. The Castle Doctrine is a common law doctrine stating that an individual has no duty to retreat when in his or her home, or “castle,” and may use reasonable force, including deadly force, to defend his or her property, person, or another. Outside of the “castle,” however, an individual has a duty to retreat, if able to do so, before using reasonable force. Stand-your-ground laws, by comparison, remove the common law requirement to retreat outside of one's “castle,” allowing an individual to use force in self-defense when there is reasonable belief of a threat. Deadly force is reasonable under stand-your-ground laws in certain circumstances, such as imminent great bodily harm or death.
Florida courts have interpreted the legislature's creation of a stand-your-ground law as creating an affirmative defense, expanding the right of self-defense and abolishing the common law “duty to retreat” when a person uses deadly force in self-defense to prevent imminent great bodily harm or death - see (Dorsey v. State, 74 So.3d 521 (2011)
- yes there will be an inquiry but no jail- unless you live in California, Oregon or New Mexico they have no castle doctrine laws there
The Oregon law does not specifically call it the castle doctrine, but all the same rules apply, use of deadly force for protection in your home is legal. The majority of Oregon is a pro gun community, with gun friendly laws, same day handgun purchase…etc….Portland however, has always been a nightmare for gun owners.
 

welkin

Well-Known Member
For me it’s knock down power because you never know how big your opponent will be.

For open carry which is most of the time, it’s my Colt Anaconda 4 1/2 barrel using 240 gr. jacketed hollow points.

For concealed it’s either my Kimber 1911 using 230 gr. hollow points or Sig Sauer P229 SAS in 357sig using 147 gr. hollow points which I like because of the higher capacity magazine.

Our County Sheriff’s all pack 45 ACP.
 
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