24 elders

newtofaith

Well-Known Member
I have just realised that I may be in great ignorance (or deception) about where people go when they die. I just read a book called *False teaching book name removed* and it specifically states that people do not go to heaven (or hell) until the end of time (when they are judged).
If this is the case, then are Paul, Peter, John etc not in heaven yet?
This leads me to ask you this question: if the above is rubbish then couldn't the 24 elders be the most significant people in Jesus's life when he was on the earth?
Sorry for my ignorance and, to be honest, I'm really shocked that this could be true as I always thought people went straight to Heaven (although it does make sense with the dead rising at the time of the rapture).
X
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
Philippians 1:20-24 (NASB95)
20 according to my earnest expectation and hope, that I will not be put to shame in anything, but that with all boldness, Christ will even now, as always, be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labor for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24 yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.
 

Mary Cole

Well-Known Member
I have just realised that I may be in great ignorance (or deception) about where people go when they die. I just read a book called *False teaching book title is removed* and it specifically states that people do not go to heaven (or hell) until the end of time (when they are judged).
If this is the case, then are Paul, Peter, John etc not in heaven yet?
This leads me to ask you this question: if the above is rubbish then couldn't the 24 elders be the most significant people in Jesus's life when he was on the earth?
Sorry for my ignorance and, to be honest, I'm really shocked that this could be true as I always thought people went straight to Heaven (although it does make sense with the dead rising at the time of the rapture).
Jesus already took our place so that we would not be judged at the end of time, if we have put our faith in Him. We, believers, are His Bride, who will escape the judgements to come. Instead, we will be caught up in the air before the Tribulation begins, and He will take us to be with Him in His Father's House.

I believe the 24 elders are a representation of those who are saved. They are wearing crowns, they worship Him, lay their crowns at His feet and praise Him for our salvation.

Those who are judged at the end of time will be those who become believers after the rapture and Tribulation, and those who refuse salvation. The Tribulation saints will be admitted into the Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years of Jesus' reign on Earth. The unbelievers will be sent to Hell. When the 1000 years are over, the Great White Throne judgment happens. Everyone who has ever lived, with the exception of His Bride (we believers who are saved before the rapture), will be brought back to life so that they can receive their final judgment.: eternity in the Lake of Fire or eternity with Jesus.
 

cavalier973

Well-Known Member
Jesus already took our place so that we would not be judged at the end of time, if we have put our faith in Him. We, believers, are His Bride, who will escape the judgements to come. Instead, we will be caught up in the air before the Tribulation begins, and He will take us to be with Him in His Father's House.

I believe the 24 elders are a representation of those who are saved. They are wearing crowns, they worship Him, lay their crowns at His feet and praise Him for our salvation.

Those who are judged at the end of time will be those who become believers after the rapture and Tribulation, and those who refuse salvation. The Tribulation saints will be admitted into the Millennial Kingdom for 1000 years of Jesus' reign on Earth. The unbelievers will be sent to Hell. When the 1000 years are over, the Great White Throne judgment happens. Everyone who has ever lived, with the exception of His Bride (we believers who are saved before the rapture), will be brought back to life so that they can receive their final judgment.: eternity in the Lake of Fire or eternity with Jesus.
The Elders also sit on thrones in Almighty God’s presence.
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
As a quick and dirty explanation for you, people currently do not go to what we think of as "hell" yet, which is the lake of fire. Believers do currently go to heaven.

During old testament times, both believers and unbelievers went to a place called hades in Greek or sheol in Hebrew. This place is mentioned in the story of the rich man and Lazarus if you want to read more about it. (Luke 16)

Sheol had one side called torment for unbelievers and a side called Abraham's bosom for those who put their faith in the coming Messiah. It was a place of peace and comfort. There was a great chasm in between the two sides that prevented anyone from crossing from one side to another.

When Jesus died, he spent time ministering to the spirits on the believing side of sheol, and at some point took them to heaven. His sacrifice finally allowed them to be in God's presence.

Now for all believers that die, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8)

The final/eternal destination for the Church is actually not heaven but the New Jerusalem found in Revelation 21. It comes down out of Heaven, and it is the place with streets of gold, endless day, and gates made of giant pearls that some people erroneously conflate with Heaven.
There will also be a New Earth at that time that is free from sin. Some people put this event at the beginning of the millennium, some at the end of the millennium.

The other event is called the great white throne judgment, and that's when unbelievers go to "hell" at the end of the millennium. They're all resurrected and judged and thrown into the lake of fire permanently along with Satan.

Hopefully that info dump clarified things for you. I didn't even get into who the elders are, because that's something I've studied less.
 

mattfivefour

Administrator
Staff member
@newtofaith, always trust the Bible itself, not some guy's or gal's interpretation of it. There are a lot of bad books (and even somewhat good ones) out there, filled with garbage. But there is only one truly good Book. It will tell you that the saved go to be with Christ at death. Unfortunately, some who would be teachers, lean on their own misunderstanding and draw out of Scripture what isn't there.
 

pixelpusher

Well-Known Member
@newtofaith, always trust the Bible itself, not some guy's or gal's interpretation of it. There are a lot of bad books (and even somewhat good ones) out there, filled with garbage. But there is only one truly good Book. It will tell you that the saved go to be with Christ at death. Unfortunately, some who would be teachers, lean on their own misunderstanding and draw out of Scripture what isn't there.
When we die and go to be with the Lord, this is in our spirit, right? When the graves of the dead in Christ are opened first at the Rapture, that’s when we’d be reunited with our then glorified body?
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I have just realised that I may be in great ignorance (or deception) about where people go when they die. I just read a book called *False teaching book name removed* and it specifically states that people do not go to heaven (or hell) until the end of time (when they are judged).
If this is the case, then are Paul, Peter, John etc not in heaven yet?
This leads me to ask you this question: if the above is rubbish then couldn't the 24 elders be the most significant people in Jesus's life when he was on the earth?
Sorry for my ignorance and, to be honest, I'm really shocked that this could be true as I always thought people went straight to Heaven (although it does make sense with the dead rising at the time of the rapture).
X
I've taken the liberty of removing the book you mentioned in the OP as I don't want others going around the Internet searching for it and getting caught up in a false teaching like you have done.

I looked up a couple of articles on the main site and I think they will be of comfort to you. Please take a few moments to read them:

https://www.raptureforums.com/jack-kinsella/on-death-and-dying/

https://www.raptureforums.com/jack-kinsella/till-my-change-come/
 

katt

Well-Known Member
I have just realised that I may be in great ignorance (or deception) about where people go when they die. I just read a book called The Great Controversy and it specifically states that people do not go to heaven (or hell) until the end of time (when they are judged).
If this is the case, then are Paul, Peter, John etc not in heaven yet?
This leads me to ask you this question: if the above is rubbish then couldn't the 24 elders be the most significant people in Jesus's life when he was on the earth?
Sorry for my ignorance and, to be honest, I'm really shocked that this could be true as I always thought people went straight to Heaven (although it does make sense with the dead rising at the time of the rapture).
X
The story of the first Christian Martyr Stephen..should put your mind at rest...please read the book of Acts..when they stoned Stephen to death..just before they started stoning him, this is what he saw:

Acts 7:
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


not long after, Stephen is dead..The New Testament tells us that Jesus sits at the right hand of The Father..but here he is standing, Jesus knows one of his brothers is about to come home and he rises to meet him and take him in his arms.

Make no mistake...and let this ease your mind..Christian's go to heaven when they die..

Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with Jesus....

Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't read the Bible, doesn't understand it (although I don't know how they couldn't, it's right there plain as day) or ....just refuses to believe it..
 

Work4Peanuts

I like being just a Well-Known Member
...I believe the 24 elders are a representation of those who are saved. They are wearing crowns, they worship Him, lay their crowns at His feet and praise Him for our salvation...
That would make sense. I'm thinking that if we talk about 12 ruling elders (apostles) for the church age (after Christ's death on the cross), plus 12 representing the 12 tribes of Israel (saved by grace through faith in the coming Messiah), it could come to 24.

I haven't heard anyone else mention it that way though, so I may be off-base in my analysis.
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
I have just realised that I may be in great ignorance (or deception) about where people go when they die. I just read a book called *False teaching book name removed* and it specifically states that people do not go to heaven (or hell) until the end of time (when they are judged).
If this is the case, then are Paul, Peter, John etc not in heaven yet?
This leads me to ask you this question: if the above is rubbish then couldn't the 24 elders be the most significant people in Jesus's life when he was on the earth?
Sorry for my ignorance and, to be honest, I'm really shocked that this could be true as I always thought people went straight to Heaven (although it does make sense with the dead rising at the time of the rapture).
X
Perhaps these articles from the main site will help you with the issue of who the 24 Elders are?

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/the-tribulation-the-24-elders-and-the-144000/

https://www.raptureforums.com/revelation/who-are-the-24-elders-of-revelation-4/

https://www.raptureforums.com/bible-study/ultimate-rags-riches-story/
 

newtofaith

Well-Known Member
Thank you to all that replied. I am rather pleased that the book is wrong. I did continue reading the book as it was very interesting about Wycliff, Luther, Huss etc and the history of the church but then it became rather outlandish and depressing.
I read it as I did gain some valuable insights into spiritualism and how satan so cleverly uses his information from the dead to deceive us.
When I finished reading the book in question I did think to myself that the only real truth is the bible. The trouble is that whenever I read it I tend to feel even more confused.
I'll endeavour to continue though.
 

Reason & Hope

Well-Known Member
The second link here has an interesting theory about each of us taking turns as one of the 24 elders. This is based on the OT practice of having priests work only 2 weeks in the Temple.

Interesting. I have seen some posit that the 24 represent us, but not the rotational throne sitting.
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
Thank you to all that replied. I am rather pleased that the book is wrong. I did continue reading the book as it was very interesting about Wycliff, Luther, Huss etc and the history of the church but then it became rather outlandish and depressing.
I read it as I did gain some valuable insights into spiritualism and how satan so cleverly uses his information from the dead to deceive us.
When I finished reading the book in question I did think to myself that the only real truth is the bible. The trouble is that whenever I read it I tend to feel even more confused.
I'll endeavour to continue though.

I'd still recommend tossing any books that cause you confusion or anxiety. Even if they have *some* good information, it isn't worth it if you have to swallow poison to get it. You wouldn't eat a sandwich with moldy bread because the ham was still good, would you? Especially not when you can find the information in more theologically sound places.

As for reading the Bible and being confused, that can come down to things like version. Some people are fine with ones like the KJV that are hard to read, and some people work better with simpler versions. I'm not sure which version you normally read, but it might be worth checking into. I'd consider myself to have great reading comprehension, and the KJV still is too much for me at times if I try to read it on its own. It's halfway to a different language.

And I mentioned in another thread for someone else recently, but there's this really cool promise God gave us through James (1:5) "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you."

Jesus also told us that part of the job description of the Holy Spirit is to teach us in John 14 "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

I like to pray that God guides me to learn what He wants me to learn as I read and that it causes me to grow in understanding and also love. I say a short prayer like that every time I dive into my reading, and I believe God has been faithful to grant it.

Oh and 1 Corinthians 2 is another good place that explains how the Holy Spirit will teach us

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words

You can trust in promises like that from God and ask in faith knowing He will teach you like He said
 

HalfGEEK

Active Member
Also remember that Jesus told the thief on the cross "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." (ESV) This is a perfect example, words directly from our Savior, that when we die as believers we go directly to be with Jesus and the Father in Heaven.
 
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