Mark Of The Beast - Not High Tech?

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I have to think about all that. I'm not saying you're wrong. Just not sure I completely agree.
What if people take the mark only to survive, not because they worship or agree with the beast?
Wouldn't God know that I'm only taking the mark to survive this horrific time?
It's a good question.

The answer lies in the fact that God gave the warning.

The cost of not going in the Rapture because you didn't believe in Christ until after the Rapture is death for most believers and eventually for all the unbelievers as well.

That is quite clear thru the texts in Revelation after the church age is finished-- after Jesus finishes with Laodicea, and John hears that call to come up here.

Death is inevitable.

The only choice left is whether death is permanent or not. The second death.

That is the warning that God explicitly spells out over and over. Don't take the mark. Survival at this time is NOT WORTH IT. It will cost you everything if you try to survive by taking the mark.

So for the future Tribulation Saints, the choice is believe God and act on that belief, and be martyred or disobey God and suffer permanent death and separation as a consequence. That is KNOWINGLY chosen-- certain death now as a martyr for Christ or certain death later as a consequence of taking the mark.

God will obviously allow some, a very few of the gentile nation believers to survive to replenish the earth in the Millennium.

1/3 of the Jews that enter the Tribulation will also survive, but only because they became believers in Christ --and even among the 2/3 that die, there will likely be more than a few believing Jews who die also. All we know is that 1/3 of Israel survives, and that 1/3 is unanimous in believing Christ and calling on Him to save them.

So the one fact is death. Certain death that cannot be avoided except by God's sovereign will in sparing a certain few.

There will be NOTHING that can be done to avoid that death. Except by God's miraculous provision for the few He spares.

Everybody dies and the few that live, do so by God's miraculous provision.

With that in mind, the choice isn't whether God will forgive someone who takes the mark because they were just doing it to survive. He said He won't.

Instead the choice is death-- now or later. Now is better than later because if you survive by taking the mark you are damned for eternity.

If the mark is forcibly given, it obviously doesn't come by reason of accepting it, and that doesn't count so it seems that it cannot be given without consent. God has made that clear to Satan and the hordes of hell.

This is why the enemy MUST use the most drastic methods to persuade people to take the mark. Survival-- food and access to the money system to buy that food. And if you don't take the mark then you lose your head literally.

Because the mark MUST be voluntary, even if people only volunteer to take it to save their lives.

This time of Tribulation is so different from the Church Age, where we have forgiveness and grace for all but the sin of unbelief in Christ. In our day we come to faith and live for Christ.

In the Tribulation we come to faith and die for Christ.

Those few who survive by God's miraculous intervention will do so even as they continue to refuse the mark, yet are preserved thru till the end alive.

If any Tribulation believer takes the mark they are forever lost after that point. If the mark is forced upon them, -- given while they are unconscious for example or held down in chains and done to them while they scream NO!!!! it isn't valid. They have to consent to the mark for it to damn them.

Consent given to help one's family survive is still consent in a time when God states so clearly that all will die barring a few that He alone protects. Survival is by God's power alone to a select few. Anyone who survives by consenting to the mark will die and they will do so because they knew the truth of God and still chose to disobey.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I don't believe the mark changes the DNA is the business of Consent.

For the mark to be valid, the person has to consent.

That seems crystal clear thru the whole of Revelation. Otherwise why have the angel warning everyone, why have everyone since Revelation was written making such a big deal of DON'T TAKE THE MARK.

Some propose a retrovirus could be introduced that changed the DNA into some type of Nephilim hybrid thing-- a strand or two of fallen angel DNA combining with the human DNA to create a hybrid similar to the hybrids before the Flood "and also after that" for a period of time in Canaan eg Goliath, Og and others.

That could be inserted without consent. Easily.

Genetic tampering, super soldier stuff, that can be done under anaesthetic even, without voluntary consent. The patient goes to sleep a human, wakes up as something NOT human. Augmented in some way.

That can be done without consent.

So that is NOT the mark. If some unfortunate person does have that happen, they are still able to be saved, they are still human. If I remove your leg you are missing part of your body, but you are still human. If you are born with an extra chromosome like Down's Syndrome children, you are still human. You may be different by accident or genetic decay but you are human and can be saved. If you are injected with a retrovirus that changes your DNA, you are still human. Your body may have changed but your eternal soul given to you at conception by the Creator Himself, that soul is still human.

Jesus spoke of the things that defile a person.

It's not what comes from outside, by going into them, it's what comes out of the HEART that defiles them. And that would include a heart that chooses to defy God's command not to take the mark even if it costs their life or the lives of their dear ones in front of them.

Mark 7: 14-15
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

For the mark to be valid, it must be done consciously, voluntarily --even if under duress, pressure, the knowledge you'll starve if you don't or lose your head if you don't. And likely watch them torture your family to death to push you to decide to take the mark.

You know full well God said DON'T take the Mark! You know from God's Word those who do are damned, no further choice. God said your only choice is to die for Him (and some He will miraculously preserve for Him--HIS choice, not yours)

YOUR only choice is death. Sooner or later. Sooner is best. But you choose. It is not inserted into you without your knowledge and consent.

As something that is forced on you, it can't defile you without your consent.

Therefore it is NOT some type of retrovirus that turns us into a Nephilim-- it is the act of consenting to whatever the mark is. It's the voluntary consent to the thing God forbids and commands us to choose death first rather than consent to taking the mark of the beast.

In a sense those who take the mark are taking communion with Satan. They voluntarily take that mark in identification with the Beast and against God. This act comes from the heart and it defiles them permanently.

Those who choose death for the sake of obeying God in a visible show of their belief in Christ at the cost of their lives are voluntarily taking GOD's mark, in communion with Him, in identification with HIM, in voluntarily saying that HE and HE alone is worthy to be obeyed. This act comes from the heart too, and no matter what happens to their body, it joins them to Christ for all time and eternity.
 

kathymendel

Well-Known Member
No matter what the reason is for taking the mark in the trib, the one accepting the mark is really saying that they are putting their faith in
the antichrist, NOT in God. Black and white to me. Bada Bing, decision made......... and, cannot be taken back. The 144,000 and the angel will be warning people not to take the mark............so, there will be no excuses once the deed is done.
 

UntilTheWholeWorldHears

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I don't believe the mark changes the DNA is the business of Consent.

For the mark to be valid, the person has to consent.

That seems crystal clear thru the whole of Revelation. Otherwise why have the angel warning everyone, why have everyone since Revelation was written making such a big deal of DON'T TAKE THE MARK.

Some propose a retrovirus could be introduced that changed the DNA into some type of Nephilim hybrid thing-- a strand or two of fallen angel DNA combining with the human DNA to create a hybrid similar to the hybrids before the Flood "and also after that" for a period of time in Canaan eg Goliath, Og and others.

That could be inserted without consent. Easily.

Genetic tampering, super soldier stuff, that can be done under anaesthetic even, without voluntary consent. The patient goes to sleep a human, wakes up as something NOT human. Augmented in some way.

That can be done without consent.

So that is NOT the mark. If some unfortunate person does have that happen, they are still able to be saved, they are still human. If I remove your leg you are missing part of your body, but you are still human. If you are born with an extra chromosome like Down's Syndrome children, you are still human. You may be different by accident or genetic decay but you are human and can be saved. If you are injected with a retrovirus that changes your DNA, you are still human. Your body may have changed but your eternal soul given to you at conception by the Creator Himself, that soul is still human.

Jesus spoke of the things that defile a person.

It's not what comes from outside, by going into them, it's what comes out of the HEART that defiles them. And that would include a heart that chooses to defy God's command not to take the mark even if it costs their life or the lives of their dear ones in front of them.

Mark 7: 14-15
14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, “Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15 Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them.”

For the mark to be valid, it must be done consciously, voluntarily --even if under duress, pressure, the knowledge you'll starve if you don't or lose your head if you don't. And likely watch them torture your family to death to push you to decide to take the mark.

You know full well God said DON'T take the Mark! You know from God's Word those who do are damned, no further choice. God said your only choice is to die for Him (and some He will miraculously preserve for Him--HIS choice, not yours)

YOUR only choice is death. Sooner or later. Sooner is best. But you choose. It is not inserted into you without your knowledge and consent.

As something that is forced on you, it can't defile you without your consent.

Therefore it is NOT some type of retrovirus that turns us into a Nephilim-- it is the act of consenting to whatever the mark is. It's the voluntary consent to the thing God forbids and commands us to choose death first rather than consent to taking the mark of the beast.

In a sense those who take the mark are taking communion with Satan. They voluntarily take that mark in identification with the Beast and against God. This act comes from the heart and it defiles them permanently.

Those who choose death for the sake of obeying God in a visible show of their belief in Christ at the cost of their lives are voluntarily taking GOD's mark, in communion with Him, in identification with HIM, in voluntarily saying that HE and HE alone is worthy to be obeyed. This act comes from the heart too, and no matter what happens to their body, it joins them to Christ for all time and eternity.
One of the reasons I come to this board. Thanks for expanding on my question. A lot of what you said is very true.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
One of the reasons I come to this board. Thanks for expanding on my question. A lot of what you said is very true.
I LOVED your question, it's one I've been pondering a while. I'm still puzzling away at it.

God goes to so much trouble to explain in Scripture and thru the angel in the heavens, and the 144,00 that people mustn't take the mark.

That refusal stops the Mark in it's tracks.

Whatever the Mark consists of, refusing it stops it from acting.

That's not a physical property of anything marking system we have right now.

How does saying NO stop this?

For some reason the mark cannot take effect on those who don't consent.

Even with any physical mark. --a tattoo, a chip, an RFID implant. All could be done without consent. Tie the person down, force it on them.

But in some way we don't understand this side of the Tribulation period it HAS to be done with the consent of the person.

Which means that no matter what it's physical action, it's the act of consenting to it, that allows it to take effect. because in some way, those who refuse are protected from it, even though they will be killed for refusing it.

Maybe God ensures the tattoo doesn't take, the chip explodes on contact, a retrovirus intended to change DNA turns harmless after injection on all the people who don't consent.

And that might be the most logical answer of all, because I could then see the enemy being so infuriated that he kills those who refuse.

In some way we don't understand yet this side of the Rapture, the person must consent to it to allow it to take on their bodies.
That suggests a supernatural element.

But one that God easily over rides.

It's intriguing how like Moses and the plagues of Egypt Revelation is-- another time when God poured out his wrath this time on the land of Egypt and the Pharoah.

Pharoah's magicians duplicated many of the miracles done by Moses and Aaron beside him. It was a great duel fought on the world stage. God won every time. But it was won supernaturally, not using normal means. And even in the supernatural which the magicians used, there were clear winners (God, Moses, Aaron, Israel) and losers (Egypt, Egypts "gods", the magicians and the demonic energizer bunnies working thru them, and Pharoah himself)

The final battle, the angel of death takes the firstborn of every family, but NOT on the houses of Israel, marked with blood on the wooden doorposts (the bloodied cross of Calvary pictured) from the lamb that each home killed, roasted and ate (communion with Christ). Death comes, but not for the house of Israel and those gathered in their homes. They were supernaturally covered.

And that is what strikes me about the Mark. Somehow the act of refusal brings into play some kind of visible dual that God wins every time.

In the sight of all those gathered to take the mark-- those who say no can't be marked. Try as they might, the agents of the Antichrist simply can't make that Mark stick.

The ones who refuse will die for their choice, and again that is another way God visibly wins, because to the martyrs He matters enough to die for. Immediately.

That has GOT to leave an impression on those waiting their turn in line to get the mark.

Who is important enough to die for?

Who is supernaturally strong, so strong that the Antichrist can't forcibly mark God's followers?

There will be those in line who change their minds and last minute won't take the mark, and cry out to God. Recognizing that God WINS every time, and HE ALONE is worth dying for. That was one reason why Christianity grew in the early church. These believers were so convinced that God was worth dying for that they did so, regularly.

It's an intriguing puzzle. No matter what the mark ends up being, it can't leave it's mark on those who refuse.
 

alisani

Well-Known Member
I dont believe it has anything to do with a change in DNA. Its simply a mark or a chip, and its not important what that mark actually is. Whats eternally important is taking the MOB is saying you believe the lie, the grand delusion, that the beast is god.
Yes. As you said earlier up the thread, we are talking about the one unpardonable sin-blasphemy. Revelation 14 makes clear that swearing an oath of willful loyalty to the AC IS blasphemy. Blasphemy is considered to be defiant irreverence, which the taking of the mark most certainly signifies. When you blaspheme, you are essentially denying the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ. No one who takes the mark will do so for any other reason but defiance against God. For those saved during the Tribulation, they will either become martyrs or God will work His will in bringing them escape.

If you read Mark 3 and Matthew 12, you'll see examples provided for the case of blasphemy. One is the Pharisees. They saw that Jesus was working miracles, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

But they accused him of being possessed be a demon. If they made this claim out of ignorance or confusion, that would be pardonable. But they said it KNOWING that He was the Messiah sent by God. But they didn't wish to lose power or status and tried to discredit Him. They deliberately chose to refute the truth of God and His ministry and by doing so, slandered the Holy Spirit. They had heard the Truth, and knew it to be Truth, and still rejected it. The one who works to bring about conviction and repentance of sin. Once the Spirit is so rejected, He will not make entry into their hearts. They have made the choice to keep Him out forever.

Hope that helps clarify for some folks? Sorry for the bold, it kicked on and even though I tried, I can't get the text to calm down.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Good post, some speculation was needed.

Not all who refuse the MOB will die, as many believers will survive the tribulation.
I left them out, as I know God will spare some to repopulate the nations mentioned in all the Millennial prophecies. I was focused on those who are caught in the machinery of the Antichrist, in the line to get marked or die.

And that's another interesting thought. Because just like Salvation by Grace alone, no added works, the survival of these believers that God spares are another act of God alone, by Grace alone.

Contrary to the many misguided Christians who feel that with enough beans and ammo they can survive the Tribulation. The mid or post trib crowd. Suckers for the sales pitches for buckets of doomsday food. Anxiously preparing so they can please God and do their part to survive.

That implies works quite apart from the problems with a mid or post trib position. That somehow, God's grace PLUS their little extra bit of works will enable them to survive the Trib and please God by doing so.

I'm NOT saying it's wrong to buy and leave buckets of food behind if God shows you to, because that may be one of the ways God uses to spare the survivors. Leading them by miraculous means to the forgotten stashes of doomsday buckets and other necessities to sustain their lives.

That's different than deciding that God needs our help in surviving the Tribulation period. We don't need to "help" God out and bask in HIS glory, having contributed a part to our survival. That is works.

God's plans are to Rapture the church age saints.

Those who come to belief in Christ after that point are mostly martyred but a few survive, by God's own decision as to who survives and He alone provides for them in various ways known only to Him.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
I'm NOT saying it's wrong to buy and leave buckets of food behind if God shows you to, because that may be one of the ways God uses to spare the survivors. Leading them by miraculous means to the forgotten stashes of doomsday buckets and other necessities to sustain their lives.

That's different than deciding that God needs our help in surviving the Tribulation period. We don't need to "help" God out and bask in HIS glory, having contributed a part to our survival. That is works.
To me, its seems the first two sentences above, are basically the same as the next two in that church members leave supplies behind to help those future trib saints, yet you make a distinction with the second two sentences that I dont understand, and call it works???? Can you elaborate?
 

Bedra1958

Member
I think part of the problem in solving your questions is we think as Christians, in the age of grace. The answers we have now for us, seem clear. During the tribulation, its not the same for Trib saints, as it is for Saints in His Church. They will be held to a much different standard.

I seldom use “got questions” but their answer seems solid.

Is it possible for a person to be saved/forgiven after taking the mark of the beast?​


The mark of the beast is a mark that will be placed on a person’s forehead or right hand in the end times as a sign of allegiance to the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15–18). Further, no one will be allowed to engage in commerce without the mark (Revelation 13:17). It appears that some form of worship of the Antichrist is associated with receiving the mark (Revelation 14:9; 16:2), and those who refuse to worship the image of the beast will be killed (Revelation 13:15).

The question then arises as to whether a person who has received the mark of the beast can be forgiven. The answer to this question seems to be “no.” Revelation 14:10–11, describing the fate of someone who takes the mark of the beast, declares, “He also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

The eternal destiny of those who take the mark of the beast is the lake of fire. Why is taking the mark of the beast a damnable sin against God? Why would God condemn a person to hell for taking the mark of the beast? It would appear that taking the mark of the beast will be a blasphemous act of willful defiance against God. Receiving the mark of the beast is essentially worshiping Satan. Those who take the mark have made the choice to serve Satan rather than obey God and receive Christ as Savior. When people make that decision during the tribulation, God will grant their request to be eternally separated from Him.
https://www.gotquestions.org/saved-after-mark-beast.html
Wow, very scary indeed! I cannot fathom wanting to be separated from the Lord... Whoooeeee!!!
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
To me, its seems the first two sentences above, are basically the same as the next two in that church members leave supplies behind to help those future trib saints, yet you make a distinction with the second two sentences that I dont understand, and call it works???? Can you elaborate?
Yup MOTIVE

If I were to buy extra dry storage food (I do, it's my pantry system-- used over the years to get thru a bad paycheque period where theres just not enough money, or nowadays, in case of shortages at the grocery store.)

As I buy that food -- I am aware that in the Rapture I will leave it behind for those left behind. I will trust the Lord to bring by those who need it, to get it.

I don't do buckets of doomsday prep but some do for reasons of earthquakes, hurricanes etc. I prep using normal grocery shelf stable items that we use up in everyday life. I rotate my Pantry items and replenish as they drop below my particular comfort zone number.

Prepping by itself for reasonable disasters and even just meeting the budget (buying in bulk on sale specials, then eating that food at the sale price till the next sale when it's replenished) makes sense.

That is godly stewardship.

Buying a 7 year supply of dried food to store because you plan to get thru the Tribulation as a survivor, earning some kind of rugged competition points from the Lord is not godly stewardship and it is works. Trusting in your own ability to be able to do what God isn't quite able to do.

Since God's works are complete without our works, that is an attitude that God condemns in Isaiah 64:6 says "And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;" referring to good works done to save us.

Trusting in our ability, rather than looking to the Lord is works.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Trusting in our ability, rather than looking to the Lord is works.
I agree this is very true for salvation.

If a Christian believes they will go through the tribulation as a post tribber, and they stock up on supplies, thinking it will help them survive, is that “works” for salvation, or simply works to survive? Remember, if they already know they are saved, but have fallen victim to false teachings of post trib, their not trying to help God, they are trying to survive to the end. If they were stocking up because they believed all who survive would then be saved, then yes, they are attempting to “work” for their salvation.

Maybe Im just a little confused on what you wrote, that is my issue. What I do know is that I have not “worked” since 2011…. :biggrin
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Trusting in our ability, rather than looking to the Lord is works.
I always learn from you sister, so can you explain how the below highlighted verse fits in with our recent exchange of posts?

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
 

Kerbluey

Well-Known Member
I'm guessing that it will be just a mark of some kind. Having experience with multiple types of technology involving scanning/sensing, I can't imagine universally available and compatible equipment being an option.
The only thing that may come close is bar code scanning. It's limitations would render it problematic on any surface as variable as skin. Tattooed bar codes would have almost instant resolution degradation and be subject to mutations. Think wrinkles. RFID would be an easy option but does not fit the literal description of a "mark". RFID also requires technology and a form of standardized platform in order to be implemented.
That is why the plain old mark may be just a plain old mark. Eternally deadly, still just a mark. Simple and effective.
Just guessing.

Jeff

What about a branded bar code? Would that have the same issues if it was sunk into the skin like a brand with ink to make it highly visible? I’m assuming ink could be used, so it’s kind of a tattoo/branding scar hybrid.

Edited to say where I’m coming from is I always assume the technology us peasants know about is light years behind what the government has in secret.
 

Umbrella Girl

Now we see through a glass, darkly; (1 Cor 13:12)
All things considered, I find it interesting how obsessed this current generation is with getting tattoos. Nowadays, you actually appear to be a bit of a rebel if you DON’T have one…

I’m not saying tattoos are evil. What I’m saying is that I have started to wonder how this obsession with tattoos came about, and what it might be leading to, as far as the Mark is concerned…
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I agree this is very true for salvation.

If a Christian believes they will go through the tribulation as a post tribber, and they stock up on supplies, thinking it will help them survive, is that “works” for salvation, or simply works to survive? Remember, if they already know they are saved, but have fallen victim to false teachings of post trib, their not trying to help God, they are trying to survive to the end. If they were stocking up because they believed all who survive would then be saved, then yes, they are attempting to “work” for their salvation.

Maybe Im just a little confused on what you wrote, that is my issue. What I do know is that I have not “worked” since 2011…. :biggrin

well for the confused, they just go up with us along with every other believer. Their prep is not so much self reliant works attitude as sheer ignorance mixed with a dose of fear but here's where I come from.

I've bumped into more than one mid/post tribber who is angry at pre tribs because we aren't prepping, therefore will be a drain on them during the trib. They are proud of their stash and of their forward thinking and are quite sure that God will reward them (they use that same verse you quote, that I'll get to below)

My daughter in law's dad is sure we go thru the Trib. He is quite anxious to make sure he and all his children are prepared because in his view God won't take us before we've proven our faith, by doing all we can to survive. The tough survive and are rewarded.

In his view, and others from the mid and post trib persuasion there is a strong streak of proving one's faith to God by surviving, and having the beans and bullets laid by to survive. The only thing God requires is not to take the Mark and to believe in Christ. No mention of beans and bullets. God is quite able to tell people to prepare for a famine, as He did in Egypt thru Joseph. It saved the family of Israel.

There is not much about trusting God to survive the process but of proving their worth to God by surviving if you follow me. It's a pride filled attitude of self sufficiency. It starts by presuming that they can survive the Tribulation and that they are the survivors who will populate the Millennium.

This is more than just a different eschatology, it ignores the very real prophecies in Revelation of those martyrs losing their lives, not because they failed to provide enough beans and bullets, but because they refused the mark. Now I know this is why they have their stash of beans and bullets, to evade the Mark system and still eat and protect themselves.

But it ignores the fact that most of these Trib saints die as martyrs. And they are commended. The survivors are a minority, and also commended but not because of their ability to provide for themselves for 7 years, but for their faith in God. And in v 22 God makes it clear there is nobody who could survive unless He Himself cuts that time short.

I always learn from you sister, so can you explain how the below highlighted verse fits in with our recent exchange of posts?

Matthew 24
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.
That verse is given to the Tribulation saints. It describes the plight of the believers of the Tribulation, now largely Jewish and still some Gentiles--reverse to what it's been for most of the church age. God's focus is on the Jews now in Jacob's Trouble as He refines them and purifies the nation preparing them for the Millennial reign of Christ.

The wider context comes after the time stamp of verse 8 and up to V 8 describes the pre Rapture, pre Trib end of the church age. Jesus is answering several different questions here, asked by Jewish disciples. The Jewish nature of the disciples and Jesus is key here.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

Margery here: so v 8 this is not yet the tribulation. Jesus references the times of the beginnings of the birth pains-- and uses that Jewish idiomatic expression explained by Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum in the Footsteps of The Messiah - 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. That as Dr Fruchtenbaum explains refers to world war, WW1 as being the beginning of birth pains. The era we are in. For many reasons I wont' get into here, I think he is right in nailing that time frame as the beginning of birth pains that Jesus is referring to here.

The passage you quote from v 9 - 14, is an overview of the Tribulation, Jacob's Trouble, the time when Jewish believers will be looking at Jesus answer because He is speaking directly to them. It MUST be seen within that context as v 21 makes clear.

The word THEN at the beginning of v 9 provides a time change.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Margery here again, this passage continues into a very definite mid trib prophecy here to v 29 when Jesus describes the end of the Tribulation when His sign appears. V 21 cannot be seen at any other point in history than the Tribulation period. So we cannot take v 9 out of the Tribulation context.

Jesus goes on to specify the AOD that happens around the mid point of the Tribulation. He's providing a specific prophecy within the context of a discussion of the Tribulation. (I know --I'm really getting to your point soon, just making sure the context is secure)

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

Margery again, Jesus gives more specifics to the Tribulation saints.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

Margery again, as Jesus finishes this passage he points to the end of the Tribulation period.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

So back to explaining v 9-14 that you wanted
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.

10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,

11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,

13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

It's definitely to the tribulation believer. And v 13 stands as one of the differences between the church age believer whose only task is to believe and by that belief, they are saved and the tribulation saint who is NOT guaranteed Once Saved Always Saved, but who must maintain that salvation till the end. They must NOT TAKE THE MARK. Most will die, the ones that survive without taking the mark and becoming damned for all eternity, those are the ones who repopulate the earth.

The gospel of the kingdom is preached all over the whole world--by the angel flying thru the heavens, by the word of the 144,000, the 2 Witnesses and all the martyrs willing to die rather than take the mark.

But here's my biggest point.

The survivors who stand firm to the end don't survive because of works they are able to do. But because God causes them to survive. By HIS works, not theirs. Their only requirements are: Believe in Christ, Don't take the Mark. Knowing that most will die.

The few that survive do so because of God's provision, quite likely miraculous provision-- against the laws of nature as we see them now, supernatural provision, -- hiding them from view so that they don't get hauled off to some processing centre to take the mark or die, --providing food and shelter, water and other necessities without having to buy or sell.

The events of the Tribulation are so severe that in verse 22 Jesus says this 22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

It is by God's provision that even the days are cut short for the sake that the elect should survive.

Survival is by God's own provision. Not by the sufficiency of preparing ahead.
 
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Kerbluey

Well-Known Member
Athenasius, I hadn’t thought of God miraculously but physically preventing a forced MOB. I’m reading a fictional account of the tribulation, and the people trying to hurt the 144,000 are prevented in many visual ways that (in the book) God uses to turn those watching to Him because it is so obviously miraculous. Arms are caused to miss, they turn on each other, they hit an invisible wall, bullets/knives are deflected…..it makes sense that God in His mercy would do this in the real tribulation.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
If it was necessary for Tribulation saints to provide for themselves for 7 years God would have said to do this.

Because God doesn't blame the martyrs for not having planned ahead, (and gotten those beans and bullets to survive with), we can take from His commendation of the martyrs that they actually did what pleased God which was to refuse the mark and die for Christ.

By adding to God's word, and teaching that believers must prepare for the Tribulation, it inserts a requirement that isn't there (like the Pharisees did) and creates a situation similar to the Pharisees where adding some works into God's grace and provision (providing some to survive, others to die a martyrs death) helps ensure our place in God's favour.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
The survivors who stand firm to the end don't survive because of works they are able to do. But because God causes them to survive. By HIS works, not theirs. Their only requirements are: Believe in Christ, Don't take the Mark. Knowing that most will die.
I hadn’t thought of God not allowing His to recieve the MOB. However, tribulation saints are not OSAS, and they must endure in faith until the end. If what you posted is correct, than that would mean God knows who will endure, and those are who are His. Others who come to faith for a period of time, may still for whatever reason, take the MOB.
 
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