Homosexuality and Salvation

[Andrew]

Good post, Andy. I could never understand how anybody reading these verses in Romans 7 couldn't see that they relate to the experience of one who is saved.

 

[jonshaff]

Good post, Andy. I could never understand how anybody reading these verses in Romans 7 couldn't see that they relate to the experience of one who is saved.

One may take Romans 7 as being a Jew's Perspective of Sanctification before being Born again.

 

[greg64]

Thanks Andy -- that's a great study by Jack. I think he brings out several key points that help us break down the issues involved and sort it all out.

 

[Andrew]

One may take Romans 7 as being a Jew's Perspective of Sanctification before being Born again.

That may be so. However, it also describes exactly the experience of the believer after salvation. Worth keeping in mind that he was writing to believers in Rome.

 

[jonshaff]

That may be so. However, it also describes exactly the experience of the believer after salvation. Worth keeping in mind that he was writing to believers in Rome.

I agree. yes, he was writing to believers in Rome, Both Jewish and Gentile Believers. He does differentiate and he includes his personal testimony of failing to live by the letter in Romans 7. Jews would resonate with that.

 

[Andy C]

Good post, Andy. I could never understand how anybody reading these verses in Romans 7 couldn't see that they relate to the experience of one who is saved.

I agree, but there is a tiny percentage of folks who do. Whenever I'm feeling down on myself for bad behavior, I remember the Apostle Paul also had struggles, which is why I believe he was inspired to write this - for assurance for future generations.

 

[jonshaff]

For Discussion sake...please help me identify what part of The Gospel this alludes to...

Romans 7:14...I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Romans 7:15... For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate
Romans 7:18...For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Romans 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

(Just a reminder....Romans 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law)

Many of these verses are in the Present Tense...Are these the Realities of a Child of God who has been Transformed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

There is Power in the Name of Jesus...to break every chain....

Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!

For i am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.

 

[Ahwatukee]

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I think the below teaching from Jack ties all things together that have been discussed on this thread. Some will no doubt read it, and then state...but...but..you can't do this, or you have to think this way.....or add actions to the Cross. It's done. He paid for it all. When I sin, it grieves me greatly, and I don't like letting Him down, nor do I ever condone others when they sin.

Are all our sins forgiven?

A Bible Study by Jack Kelley

I’ve received a number of questions about a recent series of online articles disputing the idea that Jesus died for all our sins, past, present, and future on the cross. The articles make the claim that the Bible teaches no such thing. So let’s find out. Does the Bible teach that all the sins of our life were forgiven at the cross or doesn’t it?

Colossians 2:13-14 reads as follows, When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.

The Greek word translated all in this passage is pas. It means each, every, any, all, the whole, all things, everything. This would seem to support the claim that all sins past present and future were forgiven at the cross. It also supports Paul’s statement that at the moment of belief the Holy Spirit was sealed within us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance .

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory (Ephes. 1:13-14).

Taken literally, this means the Holy spirit is the down payment that guarantees the redemption of the acquired possession (us). This guarantee went into effect when we first believed. (By the way, for those of you who only speak King James-ese, all translation interpretations on this site are from the Greek text that brought forth the King James Version.)

Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. (2 Cor. 1:21-22).

This tells us that God has established us as His and has placed His seal upon us as well. A seal is meant to authenticate ownership, placing it beyond doubt. It’s similar to the brand a rancher places on his cattle. 1 Cor. 6:19 says we are no longer ours, we were bought with a price. The price was the life of His Son Jesus. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee that God, who acquired us, will also redeem us.

Hebrews 10:12-14 states that Jesus offered Himself as a once for all time sacrifice for sin that has made us perfect forever.

But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Once for all time means it applies from the beginning of the Age of Man to the end and continuously throughout. That includes the entire life of every believer. In offering Himself as our sacrifice for sin He has made perfect forever we who are being made Holy. This is an expansion of the writer’s claim in Hebrews 7:25 to the effect that because Jesus lives forever He is able to save us forever. (These verses prove that all interpretations of Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-27 that are used to deny eternal security are incorrect on their face. The same author, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, could not contradict himself so radically).

Notice the sacrifice made us perfect forever, even though we’re still in the process of being made Holy. That’s a job that won’t be finished until the rapture/resurrection.

Being made perfect forever is what Paul meant when he said, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17). The verbs here are in the past perfect tense. That means from God’s perspective this is all over and done. Paul said that by accepting the Lord’s death as payment for all our sins we’ve become as righteous as God is (2 Cor. 5:21).

These statements are all consistent. Individually and collectively they clearly show that all the sins of our life are forgiven from the moment we first believe. And there’s not a single verse in the New Testament that contradicts, modifies, or retracts these promises. After all, how could God guarantee our salvation from the moment of belief unless all the sins of our life were paid for and forgiven at the cross?

But We Still Sin!
So how can we reconcile this with the undeniable fact that we still sin? Remember, in His Sermon on the Mount Jesus explained that sin begins with a thought, whether action follows or not. Anger is as much a sin as murder, lust is as much a sin as adultery. He could also have said coveting is as much a sin as theft, and so on. The writer of Hebrews told us that continuing to work to earn or keep our salvation is equivalent to breaking the commandment to keep the Sabbath (Hebrews 4). And James said whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it (James 2:10). It’s only by using the blood of Jesus to wash away all the sins of our life that God could make good on His promise to guarantee our inheritance. Here’s how He does it.

Because we’ve been born again, God chooses to see us as the perfect being we will be after the rapture /resurrection. He can do this because He’s outside of time. Remember, eternity is not just a lot of time. Eternity is the absence of time altogether and God inhabits eternity (Isaiah 57:15). Remember God telling Adam that in the day he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die? (Genesis 2:17) When Adam and Eve disobeyed, they didn’t die then and there. But although they lived for several hundred more years, they were changed from immortal to mortal on that day. Their eventual death became a certainty and God who is outside time saw it at the moment they sinned.

Becoming born again is the exact opposite. We didn’t actually become immortal on that day but our immortality was made certain, and from that time on God saw us as immortal beings. He inspired Paul to write, Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! (2 Cor. 5:17). Although to us we’re still much the same, to God we became a new creation on the day we accepted the Lord’s death as payment for our sins. He now sees us as being as righteous as He is (2 Cor. 5:21). This righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (Romans 3:22).

Paul explained how God is able to do this in Romans 7:18-20. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

For a born again believer, God has separated the sin from the sinner. God sees our sins as a holdover from the old us and does not consider them to be part of the new us.

What Should Be Our Response To This?
Does this mean we’re free to sin all we want? Are the legalists correct in saying that if God didn’t threaten us with the loss of our salvation we would all become the worst kind of depraved sinners? Millions of born again believers whose lives are now radically different stand as evidence to the contrary. We all still sin from time to time but the direction and focus of our lives is not the same as it once was, and we can testify to the fact that we’ve been changed. Although Paul said everything is permissible, he also said not everything is beneficial or constructive. Therefore we no longer seek our own good but the good of others (1 Cor. 10:23-24) in the hope of winning the prize for which God has called us heavenward in Christ Jesus (Phil 3:14). Paul was not talking about his salvation, which he already had, but rewards he hoped to receive at the Bema Seat judgment (1 Cor. 3:10-15) after the rapture.

This is why the loss of our salvation is never threatened. Our belief in our eventual immortality matches what God has already seen for us, and in the meantime we strive to heed Paul’s advice to live up to what we have already attained (Phil 3:16). This is our spiritual act of worship (Romans 12:1) in gratitude for what we’ve been freely and irrevocably given.

But what about those true believers who don’t respond with gratitude and who don’t seem to have changed, living pretty much the way they did before they were saved? Is the gift rescinded? The promise broken? The guarantee revoked? I haven’t found a single verse that threatens them in this way. How could there be when all the sins of their life are paid for, including the sin of ingratitude.

What I’ve found is that for the most part, these ungrateful souls live defeated lives here and forfeit rewards in the hereafter. These are the ones Paul said will still be saved but only as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor. 3:15).

Here on Earth they have union with out fellowship, never experiencing any intimacy with God. As a result their Christian walk consists of movement without progress, battles without victories, and service without success. They’re on the right side of pardon but the wrong side of power, having justification without sanctification.

Jesus described them in the parable of the sower and the seed, saying they’re like the seed that fell among thorns. It germinates and grows but because it’s choked by the thorns, it never matures to bear fruit. Because these believers are too concerned with the ways of the world, they never mature as Christians and never produce anything of value to the Kingdom (Matt. 13:22). At the Bema Seat they’ll stand before the Lord with nothing to show for the incredible gift they were given because they will fave failed to implement the wonderful plan He had for their lives.

The New Testament is crammed with admonitions and encouragement to allow the Holy Spirit to change the focus of our lives from the things of this world to the things of the next one, from the things we can see, which are temporary, to the things we cannot, which are eternal (2 Cor. 4:18), to be made new in the attitudes of our mind (Ephesians 4:23) no longer conforming to the patterns of this world (Romans 12:2). In short, to live up to what we’ve already attained (Phil. 3:16).

Some believers who fail to heed these admonitions will find themselves having escaped judgment simply because on a single day in their otherwise unremarkable life they made a decision that changed everything. For some it will be the only smart decision they ever made, but they will have made it in faith, which is all that matters (Ephesians 2:8-9) because having made it, all the sins of their miserable existence were forgiven and they became a child of God (John 1:12-13), adopted into His forever family (Gal. 4:4-5).

When the time comes, those who failed to make that decision would gladly trade the riches of the world to change places with them. But as indescribably generous as the gift they received on that day is, it was only the first installment on the life they could have had. Whether out of ignorance or rebellion they turned down the rest, refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to guide them into it, until finally the still small voice within them could no longer be heard.

I sometimes wonder if the loss some will suffer at the Bema Seat (1 Cor. 3:15) will appear as endless warehouses of unclaimed blessing or if the tears the Lord wipes from their eyes will be tears of regret upon learning what they could have done through Him had they responded to the Holy Spirit’s prompting. Only time will tell. But at least, it will all be in the past, because Rev. 21:4 goes on to say that from then on there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain for the old order of things will have passed away. All their sins were forgiven from the day they first believed. Selah 08-27-11

https://gracethrufaith.com/topical-studies/eternal-security/are-all-our-sins-forgiven/

Good day Andy C,

This is a good teaching on salvation, but the OP is regarding a people who are claiming to be in Christ, but are refusing to repent and that because they don't recognize their same-sex life style as sin. Instead of repentance, they have justified and embraced that life style stating that God loves them just as they are and with no need to change. Is this not using the grace of God as a license for sin?

Now, if someone who was living a same-sex life style came to Christ and then was grieved about that life style, acknowledging it as sin and yielding to the Holy Spirit to be changed, then that would be the right response to Christ. That would be the right spirit. Regarding the willful practice of sexual immorality, Jesus said the following:

"But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate."

The practices of the Nicolatitans was the same practice as that group of people within the church of Pergamum who were like Balaam who taught Balak to entice Israel into eating foods sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality.

These were people within the church, claiming to be Christians, who were willfully committing sexual immorality, which Jesus said "which I also hate." Is this not the same situation that we have today with those living same-sex life styles, minus the eating of foods sacrificed to idols? Jesus mentions this same issue of sexual immorality in the church of Thyatira:

"Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

In the scripture above, notice that repentance is required and note the consequences of not repenting. Again, I am not talking about those who were living same-sex life styles and have truly repented and received Christ. I am talking about the OP which is regarding those who have no intention of repenting, those who intent to continue living that life style and at the same time are claiming to be in Christ.

These are people who claim to be in Christ who are in the process of getting married to the same gender, as well as those who were already in a relationship that have no intention of ending that sexual relationship.

Should we not hate what the Lord hates? We cannot tolerate those with this mind-set. Does scripture not say regarding those who are not in Christ that we would know them by their fruits? I'm not saying that we aught to hate people, but we should have discernment, making right judgments. We cannot condone or support these people as though they belonged to Christ. We must continue to proclaim the following truth:

"Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

As well as the following:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

And yes, the same goes for those who are not living same-sex life styles who are willfully continuing to live according to the sinful nature. But this topic is about those willfully living same-sex life styles who do not recognize it as sin and therefore have no intention of repenting.

 

[greg64]

What does the word repent mean and what is its application as it pertains to saving faith?

 

[Ahwatukee]

What does the word repent mean and what is its application as it pertains to saving faith?

Good evening greg64,

Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.

HELPS Word-studies
3340 metanoéō (from 3326 /metá, "changed after being with" and 3539 /noiéō, "think") – properly, "think differently after," "after a change of mind"; to repent (literally, "think differently afterwards").

Therefore, regarding those who are living a same-sex life style, the application of the word metanoeo would mean for them to change their minds about it, to turn away from that life style, just as with every other sin.

It doesn't mean that we don't commit sin, but we are in agreement with God that we are sinners and need to turn from the sinful nature, to change our mind about the sinful nature.

Hope this was beneficial.

Blessings in Chirst

 

[Andy C]

Question: "Is Romans 7:14-25 describing a believer or an unbeliever?"

Answer: Romans 7:14–25 is a passage that has caused some confusion among Bible students because of the strong language Paul uses to describe himself. How can the greatest of the apostles characterize himself, and by extension, all Christians, as “unspiritual,” a “slave to sin” and a “prisoner of the law of sin”? Aren’t these descriptions used in Romans 7:14–25 descriptions of unbelievers? How can Paul describe himself in these terms if he is truly saved? The key to understanding Romans 7:14–25 is Paul’s description of the two natures of a Christian. Prior to salvation, we have only one nature—the sin nature. But once we come to Christ, we are new creations in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17), but we still abide in the old flesh which has the remains of the sinful nature within it. These two natures war constantly with one another, continually pulling the believer in opposite directions.

The desires of the believer’s spiritual nature pull him in the direction of good while the flesh in which he lives pulls him in the other. He wants to do one thing but has something within him that does the opposite. So how do these evil desires differ from those of an unbeliever? Simply put, the believer hates the evil flesh in which he lives and desires to be freed from it, whereas unbelievers have no such desire. So strong is Paul’s desire to live godly and so frustrated is he that his flesh wars against his spirit that he finally cries out in desperation, “What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” Of course, the answer is Jesus Christ our Lord (verse 25). One day believers will be completely freed from the body of death in which we live when we are glorified with Christ in heaven, but until that day we rely on the power of the Spirit who indwells us and gives us victory in the ongoing battle with sin.

In Romans 7:14–25, the apostle Paul puts into practical language the fact that he is a redeemed sinner who still has a carnal body, the flesh that wars against the indwelling Spirit. In another place the apostle says, “That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the chief” (1 Timothy 1:15). The personal pronouns in these passages are not just an artifice but a statement of reality and the honest evaluation of a man who examines himself in the light of who he is and who our Lord Jesus is and comes to the conclusion that he is a wretched man in need of deliverance. This is not the deliverance from the penalty of sin—that was paid for on the cross—but deliverance from the power of sin.

As a faithful teacher, the apostle Paul in Romans 7:14–25 uses his own experiences and what he has learned through them to teach other believers how to use God’s provision and our position in Christ to overcome the struggle with our carnal nature. Praise God that we have such a wonderful thesis that not only truthfully exposes the struggle between the spiritual nature and the flesh in which it resides, but most importantly presents us with the tremendous hope and confidence in our salvation: “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1).

https://www.gotquestions.org/Romans-7-14-25.html

 

[Hol]

This is a good teaching on salvation, but the OP is regarding a people who are claiming to be in Christ, but are refusing to repent and that because they don't recognize their same-sex life style as sin. Instead of repentance, they have justified and embraced that life style stating that God loves them just as they are and with no need to change. Is this not using the grace of God as a license for sin?

Now, if someone who was living a same-sex life style came to Christ and then was grieved about that life style, acknowledging it as sin and yielding to the Holy spirit to be changed, then that would be the right response to Christ. ...

I agree with your comments somewhat, but the OP may have been better started to include all who engage in sexual misconduct: including marriage infidelity, web surfing porn, desires for illicit sex, etc. Isn't lust of all sorts just plain bad? I agree that sexual lusts are more of an issue and churches need to stop lying that it's okay.

Aren't we all struggling? Yes church discipline needs to lovingly confront any sin, especially sexual. Should we gang up on one sexual sin? In meekness firmly rebuke and stop fellowship, in hopes those tangled up in sin will repent (1 Cor. 5, 2 Cor. 2:5-11).

None of us are without sin, and our position of innocence in Christ is full of humility; impossible to grasp on our own without the Holy Spirit's power.

Those who encounter someone tangled up in sexual sin can remember Apostle Paul's directions to the Corinthians; hate the sin and love the sinner. If they were never rescued from their sin in the first place, we can invite them to come home to Jesus who longs to buy them out of slavery to sin.

 

[Jeff K]

I have had several conversations with professing Christians and I think it's a shame that they have used the argument of Romans 7 to justify living in their sinful state with no guilt.

We need to move onto Romans 8 where we find it's not the new nature that has power over sin, but the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Romans 8:9b

 

[Ahwatukee]

I agree with your comments somewhat, but the OP may have been better started to include all who engage in sexual misconduct: including marriage infidelity, web surfing porn, desires for illicit sex, etc. Isn't lust of all sorts just plain bad? I agree that sexual lusts are more of an issue and churches need to stop lying that it's okay.

Aren't we all struggling? Yes church discipline needs to lovingly confront any sin, especially sexual. Should we gang up on one sexual sin? In meekness firmly rebuke and stop fellowship, in hopes those tangled up in sin will repent (1 Cor. 5, 2 Cor. 2:5-11).

None of us are without sin, and our position of innocence in Christ is full of humility; impossible to grasp on our own without the Holy Spirit's power.

Those who encounter someone tangled up in sexual sin can remember Apostle Paul's directions to the Corinthians; hate the sin and love the sinner. If they were never rescued from their sin in the first place, we can invite them to come home to Jesus who longs to buy them out of slavery to sin.

Good morning Hol,

The issue of the OP is regarding this group who claim to be in Christ, but who instead of repentance have justified their same-sex life style. They have done this because they want to continue living a same-sex life style. Their claim is that God loves them just as they are and because of this, they do not recognize this sexually immoral life style as sin and therefore no need to repent.

This is in opposition to those who have received Christ and are in agreement with God about their sins and have repented. yes, we as believers are sinners, but we have repentant hearts regarding our sin and yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit in order to be transformed into the image of Christ. The true believer confesses daily and is always concerned about not sinning against God, keeping our bodies under control. And when we commit sin, we are grieved and go to the throne of grace in the name of the Lord asking for forgiveness. Those being spoken of in this post are NOT repenting of their sexual immorality, but have justified and embraced it and plan on continuing in it, while at the same time claiming that they are in Christ.

Yes, you are correct in regards to those who have received Christ and are also living according to the sinful nature, whatever sins they may willfully be committing. But this thread is focused on those who are claiming to be in Christ and but who are unwilling to repent of these detestable and forbidden practices. These are the same people who are working to make marriage between the same gender as being on the same level as marriage between a man and a woman. Because of their unwillingness to repent of this life style and to remain in it, we have, what they call, "gay Christians."

 

[greg64]

Yes, you are correct in regards to those who have received Christ and are also living according to the sinful nature, whatever sins they may willfully be committing. But this thread is focused on those who are claiming to be in Christ and but who are unwilling to repent of these detestable and forbidden practices. These are the same people who are working to make marriage between the same gender as being on the same level as marriage between a man and a woman. Because of their unwillingness to repent of this life style and to remain in it, we have, what they call, "gay Christians."

With all respect, this thread may have started that way but has moved significantly beyond that limited point and is dealing with core issues of sin, salvation, and the power and working of the Holy Spirit to change our lives as part of the sanctification process. We've also touched briefly on carnal Christians of various types and to what degree such a thing is even possible. I think it's a little late to be trying to narrowly redefine what has become a very broad and useful discussion.

To your point, however, I think there's a significant difference between standing against bad teaching and acceptance of practices that clearly violate God's standards in the Church (saying sin is ok) vs. judging the hearts of individual sinners. If someone has realized their inability to be right with God on their own efforts and has put their trust in Christ and his payment on their behalf, they're saved. Period. At that point the Spirit will work to refine them and eliminate various sins in their life, including the sin of homosexuality (yes, I do think it's practice is a sin and am in no way condoning it or accepting it in the Church). I think that churches who redefine what God's Word clearly says will have a lot to answer to, and salvation could be an issue. But if it is, it won't be because of homosexuality, it will be because they've kept themselves at the center of their own universe and haven't really trusted in Christ or accepted him. We're saved by Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone, and to God's Glory alone. Let's leave Him to identify who's really His. Our job is to present the true Gospel message and not get sidetracked by what increasingly seems like political debates, side issues, and straw man arguments.

 

[Ahwatukee]

With all respect, this thread may have started that way but has moved significantly beyond that limited point and is dealing with core issues of sin, salvation, and the power and working of the Holy Spirit to change our lives as part of the sanctification process. We've also touched briefly on carnal Christians of various types and to what degree such a thing is even possible. I think it's a little late to be trying to narrowly redefine what has become a very broad and useful discussion.

To your point, however, I think there's a significant difference between standing against bad teaching and acceptance of practices that clearly violate God's standards in the Church (saying sin is ok) vs. judging the hearts of individual sinners. If someone has realized their inability to be right with God on their own efforts and has put their trust in Christ and his payment on their behalf, they're saved. Period. At that point the Spirit will work to refine them and eliminate various sins in their life, including the sin of homosexuality (yes, I do think it's practice is a sin and am in no way condoning it or accepting it in the Church). I think that churches who redefine what God's Word clearly says will have a lot to answer to, and salvation could be an issue. But if it is, it won't be because of homosexuality, it will be because they've kept themselves at the center of their own universe and haven't really trusted in Christ or accepted him. We're saved by Christ alone, grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone, and to God's Glory alone. Let's leave Him to identify who's really His. Our job is to present the true Gospel message and not get sidetracked by what increasingly seems like political debates, side issues, and straw man arguments.

vs. judging the hearts of individual sinners.

I agree completely. But once again, that is not what this thread is about. You're off topic. I'm not judging the hearts of individual sinners, nor am I judging those who are willfully living same-sex. I am simply proclaiming what God's word says regarding this issue. To be clear about what I am talking about, here is a question for you. Say you meet two men in church who let you know that they are living same-sex life styles and in their conversation they make it clear to you that they have no intentions of abandoning their same-sex relationship, that there is nothing wrong with it. Would you embrace them as believers knowing that their life style is going to lead them to condemning judgment or would you contend for the truth of God's word letting them know where that life style is going to lead them?

As I stated in a previous post, if someone who was living a same-sex life style is in agreement with God that this life style was sinful and they have repented of it and are making an effort to overcome it, then that person is a true Christ, because the are in agreement regarding their sin and have a repentant heart. These people that we have been speaking about on this thread are the opposite of that, not repenting, nor do they recognize their same-sex life style as being wrong. Do you understand the difference? we're not talking about people who have repented and have received Christ. We are talking about people who are justifying their same-sex life style as being ok in God's eyes and therefore they have no intention of repenting. I don't know how many different I can say it.

 

[jonshaff]

I have had several conversations with professing Christians and I think it's a shame that they have used the argument of Romans 7 to justify living in their sinful state with no guilt.

We need to move onto Romans 8 where we find it's not the new nature that has power over sin, but the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Romans 8:9b

Thank you for stating this, Bro. Jeff. I too come across many Christians that never get victory over their sin because they are continually told, "We'll just always sin, that's what we do..." Moving into Chapter 8 is quite the liberating experience for His Children. I'm not advocating "Christian Perfectionism", I'm just detailing what Scripture clearly tells us. God's Spirit Produces fruit in us while continually purging us and refining us of our old ways.

 

[Andy C]

We'll just always sin, that's what we do...

Has anyone on this thread stated what I quoted you on?

 

[Randy - Saved by Grace]

Good morning Hol,

The issue of the OP is regarding this group who claim to be in Christ, but who instead of repentance have justified their same-sex life style. They have done this because they want to continue living a same-sex life style. Their claim is that God loves them just as they are and because of this, they do not recognize this sexually immoral life style as sin and therefore no need to repent.

This is in opposition to those who have received Christ and are in agreement with God about their sins and have repented. yes, we as believers are sinners, but we have repentant hearts regarding our sin and yield ourselves to the Holy Spirit in order to be transformed into the image of Christ. The true believer confesses daily and is always concerned about not sinning against God, keeping our bodies under control. And when we commit sin, we are grieved and go to the throne of grace in the name of the Lord asking for forgiveness. Those being spoken of in this post are NOT repenting of their sexual immorality, but have justified and embraced it and plan on continuing in it, while at the same time claiming that they are in Christ.

Yes, you are correct in regards to those who have received Christ and are also living according to the sinful nature, whatever sins they may willfully be committing. But this thread is focused on those who are claiming to be in Christ and but who are unwilling to repent of these detestable and forbidden practices. These are the same people who are working to make marriage between the same gender as being on the same level as marriage between a man and a woman. Because of their unwillingness to repent of this life style and to remain in it, we have, what they call, "gay Christians."

I agree that we are getting off topic of the original theead and going on another tangent.
Another thread can be started if need be, but would like to see this stay on topic if possible.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[jonshaff]

Has anyone on this thread stated what I quoted you on?

I'm not certain what you want me to do? Review the thread and see?