Homosexuality and Salvation

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jonshaff

Fellow Servant
I am NOT judging anyone's salvation and I NEVER said I was, although I did say we might have a pretty good idea about people at the extremes either way. All I have been saying is that a person who is saved will give evidence of that. That is what the Bible says. Sure there are people who appear great and aren't. Sure there are people who are not keeping their eyes on Jesus very well and trying to do things themselves. But we are told to judge actions. What else does it mean when a tree is known by its fruit? What else does it mean when Paul warns Timothy of the last days? What are so many of the threads here about, whether in world events or apostasy? Actions and words are being judged by biblical standards. .

What else does it mean when Jesus says to let our good deeds cause others to praise God? What else does it mean when Paul wrote, "So I tell you this, and insist on it i the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do in the futility of their thinking." ? (Eph. 4:17). We are to live differently, and that difference has got to show -- and what it has to show is Christ's character in us, increasing bit by bit through the Holy Spirit's work.

All I have been trying to say, and evidently have done so quite badly, is that when a person is born again it is going to show in his or her life. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit! There will be some kind of immediate change because the person has been given a new heart -- a heart that does not incline towards rebellion/evil, but one that inclines toward God and obedience. It may not show up a lot at first, but there will be changes, and the changes, which are wrought by the Holy Spirit will increase, because the Holy Spirit's job is to transform us into the mirror image of our Lord. He will not fail and He will not quit before the job is finished.

As far as judging a person's salvation, there is something I think we all do in this regard. When someone says they are a born-again Christian and we see them caring for others with a quiet, humble spirit and offering encouragement to others, which of us will not think to him or herself "He's really a Christian; He's really following the Lord." And we look up to people like that. And which of us, when someone says they are a born-again Christian and then is bombed out on drugs or in an active homosexual relationship, -- which of us does not wonder about that person? We don't challenge what they say about their relationship with God -- we are forbidden to do so -- but we wonder, don't we? And we hope. And we pray for that person. And one of the reasons we pray for that person is because that person is bringing the reputation of Christ into disrepute, and that is very, very painful for other Christians.

We all trip and fall. And we try our best to encourage each other and pray for each other. Why? Because we KNOW that certain behaviors are not showing Christ to the world. We KNOW that a Christian life is one following Christ, and that certain attitudes and behaviors are part of that. They don't all come at once, but if we are being transformed into the image of Christ, they will come. The Holy Spirit does not fail.

Two of the most important people in my life were older sisters in Christ. God brought them into my life at different times. They were mature in the faith and their lives showed that. Their attitudes were godly, their smiles genuine, their caring real. By their actions, their words, they helped me so tremendously, just as older women in Christ are supposed to do with younger women. Their actions proved who they were, and that gave their words worth.

Let me go further as long as I'm this far. We must grow and improve in our Christians lives. If we don't, we are saying God is a liar and the Holy Spirit doesn't know what He's doing. Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The branches grow, and flower and yield fruit. They can't help it! It's in the nature of the vine and the branches. We can't keep giving each other excuses for sin. We have GOT to encourage each other to keep the focus on Christ. In 1 Corinthians Paul tells us to build one another up with whatever gifts we have been given.

So when I tell someone that their lives will continue to show more and more of Christ in their actions and words once they have been born again, I'm not judging their salvation. I'm letting them know that God is at work in them and there is a very great reason for praise and gladness in that.
Excellent! (I told you we agree on most things ;))
 

Ahwatukee

Active Member
We will have to agree to disagree on that :)

Greetings Johsahaff,

Here's the definition of the word hagiasmos translated as sanctification:

hagiasmos: consecration, sanctification
Original Word: ἁγιασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hagiasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (hag-ee-as-mos')
Short Definition: sanctification, holiness
Definition: the process of making or becoming holy, set apart, sanctification, holiness, consecration.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 38 hagiasmós (a masculine noun derived from 40 /hágios, "holy") – sanctification (the process of advancing in holiness); used of the believer being progressively transformed by the Lord into His likeness (similarity of nature). See 40 /hagios ("holy").

Blessings in Christ!
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
It is extremely uncomfortable to be at home among sinners, to stop giving ourselves credit where no credit is due. That's why Christians flock to Lordship salvation. Let us brag about how good we are; let us condemn those who obviously are not behaving (in loving prose, of course).
Excellent post Hol, and I really liked this part. Those who appear to judge others based on their observed behavior, will have the same measure used against them, and we all sin.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Except that the bulk of your posts in this thread have a clear nessage that you are using the outward evidence to judge a person's salvation. Only later do you say otherwise despite conflicting statements in your other posts.

Being saved changes our hearts but does not change what scripture calls our flesh. It remains the same as before.
:thumbup:thumbup:thumbup
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
Why, on this board, when the topic of sanctification come up we instantly jump to the extreme and say "you're not going to be perfect (in behavior) after you get saved."?

I don't hear anyone actually saying that.

But I do hear people downplay the power of God for sanctification. And that is disheartening.
I disagree. I have not read posts downplaying our Almighty Father. Through His grace we are saved, and that changes a person, notably because as a saved Christian, the Holy Spirit lives in us, and we are forever changed. The question is, will that bring about a noticeable change of that person in the flesh? I certainly hope so, it did in my case, but probably more noticeable to me, and not as noticeable from someone observing me (and secretly judging me).
 
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Jeff K

Well-Known Member
Good friends of ours has a 17 year old son who claims to be a Christian and has recently announced that he is gay.
A few years back when this boy was 11 or 12, he was showing me his favorite book on his tablet - it was the "Book of Shadows" - the boy was reading and learning how to cast spells. I even heard him at one point plead with his parents to get him a very expensive magic wand. I don't know if he still reads the book, but I do know he is still heavy into Harry Potter and vampires.
The family as a whole were all baptized in a seeker friendly church and to this day would all claim to be Christians.

If you had the chance, would you give this young man the whole gospel? Would you pass because he just has not matured?
If you make the call to give him the gospel, you get labeled a "judge".
If you don't make the call to give him the gospel, he could spend eternity in Hell.

As for me, I'd rather follow 2 Corinthians 5:11 and be labeled a "judge".
"Knowing, therfore, the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are well known to God, and I also trust are well known in your consciences."

I have been praying for the opportunity to give the gospel to this young man - knowing the terror of the Lord, I intend to persuade him.
 

Hol

Worships Him
To Helen & Warthog, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. My nephew who died of HIV complications two years ago had a dad who flew F-16s (post Vietnam, never was in battle). This is an emotionally touching thread, and no one hated homosexuality more than my older brother, come to think of it most of my older siblings thought that way. (My parents had me later, probably an accident, but the older kids were close knit, & snobs.)

To Jeff K, how can you give someone the good news about Jesus' love for them while you hold judgement against their behavior in your heart?

Again, sorry for stepping on toes and I will stay off of this thread :thankyou
 

greg64

Well-Known Member
What a great thread this has turned out to be! Even if it gets emotionally charged and challenging at times, I hope all look at it as iron sharpening iron and not as personal attacks.

To Helen -- I think I agree completely with everything you said in post 121 above. Contrast that to the last paragraph of post 55 where I disagree strongly due to the phrasing. I think that just shows that sometimes we all can have our issues that tend to set us off and when that happens it's just important to talk through them.

I think some of us have leaned to the side of not casting absolutes that will cause people to doubt their salvation and otherwise stunt their eventual growth, either by not seeing immediate fruit or by adding a works requirement in. I was saved as a teen and spent many years somewhat back slidden to slowly growing. In recent years that seems to be taking on a new focus and I'm finally starting to see some of the gifts of the Spirit, for which I'm very grateful. Also grateful He's not done with me yet!!

Others have leaned to the side of not wanting to put any perceived limits or reduced expectations on what God can do quickly in someone's life, as that can and does happen often.

Strip away all the emotion and personal baggage and I think we all basically agree on the important points and just stress different details.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
What a great thread this has turned out to be! Even if it gets emotionally charged and challenging at times, I hope all look at it as iron sharpening iron and not as personal attacks.

To Helen -- I think I agree completely with everything you said in post 121 above. Contrast that to the last paragraph of post 55 where I disagree strongly due to the phrasing. I think that just shows that sometimes we all can have our issues that tend to set us off and when that happens it's just important to talk through them.

I think some of us have leaned to the side of not casting absolutes that will cause people to doubt their salvation and otherwise stunt their eventual growth, either by not seeing immediate fruit or by adding a works requirement in. I was saved as a teen and spent many years somewhat back slidden to slowly growing. In recent years that seems to be taking on a new focus and I'm finally starting to see some of the gifts of the Spirit, for which I'm very grateful. Also grateful He's not done with me yet!!

Others have leaned to the side of not wanting to put any perceived limits or reduced expectations on what God can do quickly in someone's life, as that can and does happen often.

Strip away all the emotion and personal baggage and I think we all basically agree on the important points and just stress different details.
Well said Greg:hat
 

jonshaff

Fellow Servant
I disagree. I have not read posts downplaying our Almighty Father. Through His grace we are saved, and that changes a person, notably because as a saved Christian, the Holy Spirit lives in us, and we are forever changed. The question is, will that bring about a noticeable change of that person in the flesh? I certainly hope so, it did in my case, but probably more noticeable to me, and not as noticeable from someone observing me (and secretly judging me).
I love you brother, even if we are viewing the posts in different light.
 

Andrew

Well known member
I have been praying for the opportunity to give the gospel to this young man - knowing the terror of the Lord, I intend to persuade him.
There is never a problem with sharing the gospel. Those who are saved will be uplifted and those who are not will be challenged by it. Those who only have a partial understanding will have an opportunity to become more secure in their faith.

We do not, however, have any responsibility for persuading anybody. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Our responsibility is simply to state the truth. Paul planted, Apollus watered but God gave the increase. (1 Corinthians 3:6)
 

jonshaff

Fellow Servant
There is never a problem with sharing the gospel. Those who are saved will be uplifted and those who are not will be challenged by it. Those who only have a partial understanding will have an opportunity to become more secure in their faith.

We do not, however, have any responsibility for persuading anybody. That is the role of the Holy Spirit. Our responsibility is simply to state the truth. Paul planted, Apollus watered but God gave the increase. (1 Corinthians 3:6)
Andrew, my dear brother, we have every right to persuade men and women to repent...yes we use our "pathos" to engage people. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are undoubtedly responsible for doing the transforming work. But we are co-laborers with Christ

2 Corinthians 5:11
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

Acts 28:23
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Guys, in the most gentle and caring way i'd like to say, we'd all do well to step back, pray about this, read through the epistles and a Gospel, and review this thread in light of what the Bible Teaches. I'm sure we'd all learn a "thing or two."

To God be all the Glory through Jesus Christ our Lord!
 

WartHog

Active Member
To Helen & Warthog, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. My nephew who died of HIV complications two years ago had a dad who flew F-16s (post Vietnam, never was in battle). This is an emotionally touching thread, and no one hated homosexuality more than my older brother, come to think of it most of my older siblings thought that way. (My parents had me later, probably an accident, but the older kids were close knit, & snobs.)

To Jeff K, how can you give someone the good news about Jesus' love for them while you hold judgement against their behavior in your heart?

Again, sorry for stepping on toes and I will stay off of this thread :thankyou

Dear Sister, please no reason to apologize. This has been a great thread and I have learned more about myself and it has enabled me to grow spiritually. So, I appreciate every post and well thought out response from everyone.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Yes, it is a very good thread. I think if we carefully, prayerfully study how Jesus dealt with people (for example the woman at the well or the woman taken in adultery or even Nicodemus) and lay that over top of His foundational teaching through Paul in 1 Corinthians 13, we will receive proper instruction in how to walk that fine line between loving the sinner while not justifying—and thus encouraging—them in their sin. Christ never once justified the least sin; but He also never condemned a sinful soul ... except those hypocrites who professed to be clean leaders of Israel but themselves were inwardly unclean.
 

Mish

This world is not my home!
:peek :shake This thread [imo] is a fabulous example of why I feel continually blessed to call this forum a vital part of my Christian "family" !!!! :meet I want to :thankyou ALL for your insightful contributions, for together y'all brought great value to a difficult topic with grace and respect for one and all...true Christian fellowship. If clarification is never requested of each other, iron would never have the opportunity to be sharpened. This thread really caused me to reflect on my own views vs. God's Word and in some instances I realized that I needed to adjust or realign my personal thoughts back into alignment with Scripture-- thanks to this great discussion!

I am NOT judging anyone's salvation and I NEVER said I was, although I did say we might have a pretty good idea about people at the extremes either way. All I have been saying is that a person who is saved will give evidence of that

Helen, I do not wish to speak for others so I will simply share with you my own feelings. I think what created my greatest confusion in your posts was your initial use of the word, "immediately" [as in an obvious, outward change should be immediate upon being born again in Christ]. Because each person's experience is different [when they come to Christ], I believe I got 'hung-up' on that one word. Perhaps others reacted or felt the same... Does that make any sense? :scratch Sincerely hoping it does, because when I'm typing at this late hour, I'm not sure about a lot of things! :laugh


Many thanks again, to each and every one that contributed to this engaging and educational thread/discussion! I've learned a great deal!

 
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