Best Argument Against the Rapture

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Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
Catholics, Episcopal Churches, Church of Christ, and Methodist groups very seldom hear or study Paul, thus missing the Rapture.

It's hard to know what the catholic church itself teaches because there are many catholic apologists that are all over the map with their teachings, but they aren't the authority of the church. That said, I don't think the catholic church believes in a Rapture of the church, but the coming of Jesus only after mankind has reached that point of Kumbaya... if you understand what I mean.
 

madcat

Well-Known Member
In my experience some churchgoers are into a belief called replacement theology. This means they believe the church has replaced Israel, therefore whenever a prophetic passage in the bible is dealing with Israel they try to insert the church into the passage instead of Israel, with bizarre results. God Bless :)
I realize replacement theology is rampant in the US, but how in the world do they reconcile that with things that are happening as we speak, like the 3rd temple, seeking the perfect red heifer, and Ezekiel 38? God made His covenant with Abraham, and chose to send himself as Jesus to Israel, etc., and that the trib is to finally get Israel to recognize he is their savior/redeemer. It seems like a lot of these followers also buy into the BDS movement.
 

madcat

Well-Known Member
It's hard to know what the catholic church itself teaches because there are many catholic apologists that are all over the map with their teachings, but they aren't the authority of the church. That said, I don't think the catholic church believes in a Rapture of the church, but the coming of Jesus only after mankind has reached that point of Kumbaya... if you understand what I mean.
Like Nirvana in Hinduism ?:confused
 

paul289

Well-Known Member
I realize replacement theology is rampant in the US, but how in the world do they reconcile that with things that are happening as we speak, like the 3rd temple, seeking the perfect red heifer, and Ezekiel 38? God made His covenant with Abraham, and chose to send himself as Jesus to Israel, etc., and that the trib is to finally get Israel to recognize he is their savior/redeemer. It seems like a lot of these followers also buy into the BDS movement.
Simple answer: They don't. For them, there's nothing to reconcile. Everything's already wrapped up in a nice little bow so there's no need to study anything else that might be contradictory. Israel being in the land doesn't matter to them because all the Israelite prophecies are spritualized and the Church is the new Israel. It's all really lazy and prideful.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
I realize replacement theology is rampant in the US, but how in the world do they reconcile that with things that are happening as we speak, like the 3rd temple, seeking the perfect red heifer, and Ezekiel 38? God made His covenant with Abraham, and chose to send himself as Jesus to Israel, etc., and that the trib is to finally get Israel to recognize he is their savior/redeemer. It seems like a lot of these followers also buy into the BDS movement.

Since those who don't take the Word of God at face value, those things don't really mean anything to them, except for the understanding that they've placed on that portion of Scripture... which could be just about anything...
 

Seashell

Active Member
I'm familiar with disagreements amongst Christians about when the rapture takes place relative to other end times events. On this issue I believe the body of Christ doesn't experience God's wrath but I fully trust in Jesus and accept whatever plans he has for me.

I only recently found out that some Christians don't believe in the rapture at all. What is their strongest argument? Not being able to participate in a physical church, my only trusted influence is the Bible and the Holy Spirit so I never even saw a controversy about the rapture's existence. God's Word says the rapture will happen so I believe Him.

What is their strongest reason to doubt the rapture? Is disbelief in the rapture a sin? Belief in Jesus' gospel would cover that sin for those Christians.
A lot of people just don’t understand the terminology of Rapture. For example Catholics believe that Jesus is coming on the last day to Judge the Living and the dead and everyone will be in either heaven or hell. So, technically speaking Catholics are Post-Tribulation Rapture, but if you ask them they will say they don’t believe in the Rapture. They just don’t use that terminology. Instead, they call it Parousia which is probably a term most Protestants aren’t familiar with. It just means the return of Jesus Christ.
 
Failure to understand the Truth usually has as its foundation a failure to take the Word of God literally, especially when it comes to end times scenarios.
No Christian consistently takes "the Word of God literally". Everyone has to discern and pick and choose. I wish people would stop claiming this.
When you observe a debate between a dispensationalist or partial preterist, you will see that neither does this consistently. I've found the latter to be more up front about that, which is how they won me over. I won't argue it here, but I do believe it is entirely appropriate to call anyone out who claims to take the bible literally, when in fact when pressed for examples, they will eventually show this is not the case. A more intelligent claim would be to take the bible according to it's "literary" genre. Apocalyptic genre is heavily symbolic, and cannot be taken "literally". A census would be a more appropriate genre to take literally - and even there, not necessarily every detail is being given by the writer of the bible. So it depends on what passage you're reading and what genre it fits into.
 

Tall Timbers

Imperfect but forgiven
No Christian consistently takes "the Word of God literally". Everyone has to discern and pick and choose. I wish people would stop claiming this.
When you observe a debate between a dispensationalist or partial preterist, you will see that neither does this consistently. I've found the latter to be more up front about that, which is how they won me over. I won't argue it here, but I do believe it is entirely appropriate to call anyone out who claims to take the bible literally, when in fact when pressed for examples, they will eventually show this is not the case. A more intelligent claim would be to take the bible according to it's "literary" genre. Apocalyptic genre is heavily symbolic, and cannot be taken "literally". A census would be a more appropriate genre to take literally - and even there, not necessarily every detail is being given by the writer of the bible. So it depends on what passage you're reading and what genre it fits into.

What Jan says below is the extended version of what I called literal translation, which I will always stand by, by the way. It's just easier for me to say "literal", with the rest implied because my brain is old...

The "literal" interpretation does not mean one believes there is no symbolism or metaphorical language. The correct label is the literal-historical-grammatical-dispensational interpretation. Grammatical means we understand the common usage of grammar to contain such language.
 

Bethlehem57

Well-Known Member
Since those who don't take the Word of God at face value, those things don't really mean anything to them, except for the understanding that they've placed on that portion of Scripture... which could be just about anything...
Applies to Amillenialists too. They (the I know) claim replacement theology, no millennial kingdom, no rapture, the Book of Revelation is nothing but symbolism, everything was fulfilled in 70 AD, and the next event for the church is Christ’s Second Coming, by the church spreading the gospel……sounds like work that’s done by man to me.

There are so many holes in that belief its nuts!
 

Chris

Administrator
Staff member
Dr. David L. Cooper's "Golden Rule of Interpretation" is very important. This is what we follow here at Rapture Forums. See below:

THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

RaptureNewbie said:
"...which is how they won me over. I won't argue it here, but I do believe it is entirely appropriate to call anyone out who claims to take the bible literally, when in fact when pressed for examples, they will eventually show this is not the case."

You can believe whatever you want on the rapture timing, but please do not promote any rapture timing views that are contrary to the pre-trib rapture timing view. That is not negotiable here. We are strictly pre-trib and I do not want any other views promoted, taught, etc. on the forums. I know you have not done that, I'm just saying for everyone's benefit here please do not do that here. :)

Thank you for not promoting another view. :thumbup
 

mikhen7

Freed By Christ to Serve Christ
Hello all, I've not been here for a while but thought I would chime in. Setting aside the fact that many do not fully understand that God has fully judged and paid the penalty for the sin of all true born-again believers and that we do not need to face God's judgment upon the sin of this world and those who are unsaved, it is beyond me why so many get so tickled it seems, at the thought of going through the tribulation. Sorry, but there will be much better things and miraculous events occurring in heaven, for the church, during the time of tribulation.
 

rocky

New Member
Don't know about strongest, but I see them post on FB that the rapture is too new of an idea to be real (so I link to the articles here) and that Christians are not meant to have "an easy way out."
The Pre Trib Rapture was taught by Paul in 1Thess 4:13-18. 1Thess 5:9 tells us that we are NOT appointed to suffer God's wrath which is what the Seven Year Tribulation period is, but to have salvation in Jesus
 

glc11

Well-Known Member
Dr. David L. Cooper's "Golden Rule of Interpretation" is very important. This is what we follow here at Rapture Forums. See below:

THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.
—————-
oh I love this!!!!!!!!
 

cshere

Well-Known Member
Hello all, I've not been here for a while but thought I would chime in. Setting aside the fact that many do not fully understand that God has fully judged and paid the penalty for the sin of all true born-again believers and that we do not need to face God's judgment upon the sin of this world and those who are unsaved, it is beyond me why so many get so tickled it seems, at the thought of going through the tribulation. Sorry, but there will be much better things and miraculous events occurring in heaven, for the church, during the time of tribulation.
Just a note to say how glad I am to see you here....I've missed you.
 

Dave_97

Well-Known Member
THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.

Not taking the Bible literally is why people end with different eschatology views such dismissing the rapture and nation of Israel.

Matter fact I’d argue, dismissing the nation of Israel makes it easier to dismiss the rapture. When you don’t have a distinction between the church and Israel, the rapture argument becomes hard to defend.

Very early in my salvation, before I had starting studying and reading about eschatology, I was going through the New Testament. When I got to Romans 11, there was no other way to slice it. Paul was making a clear claim that God had not completely abandoned the nation of Israel, and would restore it.

However, the way I understood it is that Israel is on a temporary pause, until all the fullness of the gentiles was complete. Once I got to the book of Thessalonians and with few Bible prophecy books later on, the puzzles of eschatology started to fit perfectly and the rapture doctrine didn’t just make sense, it seemed to be a very important doctrine that holds weight compared to all the other alternatives.

Many people usually say, “oh the church is going through the tribulation because saints in the passed were persecuted why should we escape it?” Then they make claims that those who believe in the rapture will actually be the Christians that “fall away” as described in 2nd Thessalonians because we have not been “preparing” for the great tribulation.

These claims are made because they have simply did not understand the purpose of the 7 year tribulation to begin with. It’s a time of Jacob’s (Israel) trouble, and Gods judgement to the world for rejecting Jesus Christ. God decreed a plan to restore Israel in the book of Daniel via the 490 years. 483 of those years were fulfilled without the church born. The remaining 7, are to be fulfilled also without the church during the tribulation. In addition, it is true saints in the passed have forgone persecution but my response argument is always that persecution is not the only thing happening during the 7 year tribulation. God is literally pouring out seal, trumpet, and bowl judgements on planet earth. The church is promised to escape Gods judgement as Jesus has paid it all in the cross for us.

There is so many other arguments to support the rapture but I’ll just leave it at that.
 
Where does it say this in the bible:

"
THE GOLDEN RULE OF INTERPRETATION

WHEN THE PLAIN SENSE OF SCRIPTURE MAKES COMMON SENSE, SEEK NO OTHER SENSE; THEREFORE, TAKE EVERY WORD AT ITS PRIMARY, ORDINARY, USUAL, LITERAL MEANING UNLESS THE FACTS OF THE IMMEDIATE CONTEXT, STUDIED IN THE LIGHT OF RELATED PASSAGES AND AXIOMATIC AND FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS INDICATE CLEARLY OTHERWISE.
"
Who is the authority for this "golden rule of interpretation"? Just some dude with an opinion. Why should I trust them?

My rule is to let scripture interpret scripture. God didn't leave us without a means to interpret the symbols. Example: If you do a search for "coming on the clouds" or the imagery of the "sun, moon stars" growing dark in the Old Testament, and it's earthly fulfillment in history, you may be surprised what you might discover (hint: of Isa. 19:1-2).

In any event my "end times" is whenever my life expires - which could be at any moment. The house I'm sitting in could fall on top of me - long before any scenario imagined by dispensationalists does or does not come to pass :) We could die at any time from a simple blood vessel in our body or organ that suddenly fails us. A car could hit us. A thug could end out life. You get the idea. The only end time that is most relevant to us personally is our own end to our short time of this planet.

People have been burned with the guessing game of newspaper exegesis one too many times. I mean look at what people were saying in the 80s, and even Chuck Smith all but date setting. It was pretty foolish in hindsight. I'm off that hamster wheel.
 
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