Ezekiel 38:1-6 Follow-up to Other Thread

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I moved our discussion over into here, on Andy Wood's idea of when the GM takes place. Sorry for the repeat.

My problem with Andy's time frame, tying the Gog Magog invasion to the Second Seal, and why I don't agree (but it is plausible) is what do you do with the Antichrist?

Andy's timing has the AC arriving on the scene with the First Seal-- making that peace agreement with Israel that kicks off the Tribulation. That part nearly everyone agrees with, it's the normal view. AC arrives in the First Seal as the first horseman.

The problem with Gog Magog invading at the time of the Second Seal, is the fact that according to Ezek 38, NOBODY comes to defend Israel, and the ONLY nations that even speak up are Tarshish, her cubs and Sheba and Dedan. THOSE ARE NOT WHERE THE AC COMES FROM.

So now with Andy's theory we have the AC making a peace covenant with Israel (and that is the thing that kicks off the Tribulation) BEFORE the Second Seal war (the second horseman) BUT ANDY puts GOG MAGOG in AFTER this peace covenant is signed.

So with Andy's theory we have a sudden invasion of Israel, who is living in a false sense of security (which Andy theorizes is due to them signing on with the Antichrist who guarantees their peace) and when they are invaded NOBODY comes to help, and GOD ALONE delivers them. This is not something that anyone at the time will get confused about, God sets it up so that Israel HAS to see that it is GOD and GOD ALONE who is their deliverer. Same with the other gentile nations-- this is God's signature act showing who HE IS to all.

So if God sets it up so that He alone gets the credit, and the only nations that question are Tarshish, cubs, Sheba and Dedan then where is the ANTICHRIST in this? He is a no show. I say it is because the Gog Magog takes place BEFORE the peace covenant that sets off the Trib. But Andy says it's after this peace covenant.

So now we have a no show with the AC, and Israel is now supposed to trust the AC for the next 3.5 years or so till the midpoint of the Tribulation when their eyes are opened as a result of the Abomination of Desolation.

You can't have it both ways. Israel wouldn't trust the AC after that no show IF Andy's theory is correct.

What is more logical is this sequence of events:

Rapture followed by a brief time but not too long because in Ezek 38 the nations (gentiles) Don't KNOW GOD and God is making Himself known to them but also mainly to Israel now. So there are no Christians among the nations at that time

Gog Magog occurs shortly after the Rapture, making it impossible to ignore God whether Jew or Gentile. EVERYONE now knows God, the true God, who destroyed Gog Magog is the REAL God, and He is the God of ISRAEL. People start getting saved again

NEXT the Antichrist rises --this could also be a very brief time-- and Israel still isn't trusting God so they sign his covenant because they don't want to get caught like that again, Gog Magog being fresh in their memory.

Signing the covenant kicks off the Tribulation. 7 months of body burying and 7 years of burning weapons are not simultaneous with the Tribulation, but they begin with the day after Gog Magog, and continue thru much if not all of the Tribulation. They could easily go beyond into the Millennium because Andy's point about Babylon burning thru the Millennium is correct. There is no reason why weapons couldn't burn for a bit into the front end of the Millennium

But the thing that prevents me from agreeing with Andy's point about the Gog Magog event being the Second Seal war is that places the AC agreement for peace before a war that the AC doesn't show up for. Which breaks that covenant right after it's made, and makes the trust the Jews have in the AC for the first half of the Tribulation kind of weird.
Thanks Athenasius, you're able to thoroughly communicate the doubts i also had about this and articulate it better.The remainder of the questions should be out next Monday (LOL ithink it might be Sunday for Northern hemisphere timezone) and he's going to address the second seal timing and the simultaneous rapture and Ezekiel timing as well
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thanks Athenasius, you're able to thoroughly communicate the doubts i also had about this and articulate it better.The remainder of the questions should be out next Monday (LOL ithink it might be Sunday for Northern hemisphere timezone) and he's going to address the second seal timing and the simultaneous rapture and Ezekiel timing as well
I still don't know if I'm understanding him correctly because from the start it seemed to me like he was mashing the Gog Magog conflict into Armageddon in some way. I listened to the Q and A several times, and it was still unclear.

I'm just making my best guess of what he might be trying to say.

But I still do wonder if what he is REALLY saying has Gog Magog stretch from the Second Seal right to the end, with the dead bodies from the Gog Magog time being part of the Armageddon feast for the carrion birds and beasts.

Which then means his time frame for the Second Seal and Armageddon is way off because those are almost 7 years apart. It just doesn't add up.

I hope he clarifies it for all of us.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I still don't know if I'm understanding him correctly because from the start it seemed to me like he was mashing the Gog Magog conflict into Armageddon in some way. I listened to the Q and A several times, and it was still unclear.

I'm just making my best guess of what he might be trying to say.

But I still do wonder if what he is REALLY saying has Gog Magog stretch from the Second Seal right to the end, with the dead bodies from the Gog Magog time being part of the Armageddon feast for the carrion birds and beasts.

Which then means his time frame for the Second Seal and Armageddon is way off because those are almost 7 years apart. It just doesn't add up.

I hope he clarifies it for all of us.
Yep hopefully he elaborates on this tomorrow
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
I think the argument that he was putting forth for his position was that the Antichrist creates a false peace which would make suit the conditions of why Israel is living with a mindset of being in peace and having unwalled villages before Gog and his coalition attacks.

It's a new viewpoint that i haven't heard before but am kind of looking into it a bit more just out of curiosity
Will try and look him up and give my 2 penneth worth.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
What's more he's saying the burning of weapons and the burying of bodies goes into the Millennium and basically saying I think that it's life as we think of being normal which I find interesting yet wrong.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
What's more he's saying the burning of weapons and the burying of bodies goes into the Millennium and basically saying I think that it's life as we think of being normal which I find interesting yet wrong.
I could possibly entertain the burning of weapons in the millenium and Athenasius sort of has the same mindset , but both of us agree with you , overall the rest of it just doesn't sit right
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
I could possibly entertain the burning of weapons in the millenium and Athenasius sort of has the same mindset , but both of us agree with you , overall the rest of it just doesn't sit right
Yes, he mentioned sacrifices of animals, if Jesus is there personally then surely that can't happen, its in the period of feast of tabernacles so nothing sits right, interesting that life may be normal have to think on that.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
Mentioned also about Tarshish being Spain, dont think hes right on that one but he is allowed on that one, so for me I am rather disappointed with him dont want to get predujised against him so will look at other videos and see what I make of him.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
OH Boy! I just listened to Andy's Q&A part 2 that just loaded today.

OK his position-- stands this way
Gog Magog (GM for short ok) happens with the Second Seal. Which is the Second Horseman, so that puts it early on in the Trib unless Andy believes the Seals happen later. He was very clear on that timing for GM in his earlier videos on the subject of the timing of that war. So I'm confident that is his position.

But Andy is equally clear now that the birds of prey (feast of the carrion eaters) occurs at the END of the Tribulation at the time of Armageddon, just as Christ's Second Coming to destroy the armies of the earth gathered against Jerusalem aka Armageddon. This is the time of Israel's National Conversion to belief in Jesus as their Messiah as the passage in Matthew says (quoted up thread or in the 6 day war thread)

As such he says that all of chapter 39 of Ezekiel applies to the end due to verses 17- end being about the end of the trib). While leaving chapter 38 as the GM war at least it's beginnings and placing that at the time of the Second Seal. Which leaves an almost 7 year gap in between.

Problems with his theory:

Birds of prey don't wait 7 years to eat the bodies of the GM war, they are there for the ARMAGEDDON war at the end of chapter 39. All the verses he quotes elsewhere in Matthew and Rev agree with the Armageddon scenario at the end with the great feast for the carrion birds and animals. THAT feast of dead bodies for the birds and beasts occurs right at the end of the Tribulation. That is non negotiable in timing, it's got plenty of references that Andy quotes all about THAT feast.

Chapters and verses were not put in till AFTER the Bible was written, LONG after in the case of Ezekiel.

So Andy's argument that all of Chapter 39 belongs to Armageddon just because verses 17 - end are about that end of the 7 year Tribulation doesn't hold water. You can have very different time frames in the same chapter. Charles Larkin calls it the Mountain Peaks of Prophecy where the prophets saw different events, but not the time in between. Daniel for example.

Nor is it Biblical because Jesus HIMSELF split a verse in Isaiah, the first half of the verse applied to His first coming, while the SECOND half of the verse (which He pointedly didn't speak) applied to HIS SECOND COMING.

Since prophecies like the one Jesus quoted about Himself can have a gap of time, sometimes upwards of 2000 YEARS in the middle, it doesn't hold that just because Ezekiel is still talking about Gog Magog in the first half of Chapter 39 and mentions carrion eaters enjoying a feast in v 4 in the context of the Gog Magog section of the chapter, that we are looking at the SAME feast for the carrion birds and beasts at the LAST HALF STARTING in v 17.

In FACT by Andy's own reasoning that cant be because further detail includes the burying of the bodies, and the burning of the weapons BEFORE WE SEE THE CHANGE IN TIME AND SUBJECT STARTING IN V 17

Since we have that further detail of what happens after the first carrion bird feast in V 4, we aren't waiting around till Armageddon to begin burying the dead.

They'd be long decomposed if they waited 6 plus years to get eaten.

My proposal to clean up the dead body problem and solve a couple of logical inconsistencies are the following:

1: Don't tie Gog Magog to the Second Seal (there's the Antichrist problem I mention above). If you want those birds having one and only one feast, and it's Armageddon (which I don't agree with at all) then you have to move it closer to Armageddon, and actually make it part of Armageddon and that has all kinds of other problems.

2: Consider the concept we could be seeing not one but TWO feasts for the birds of prey and carrion eaters. One in v 4 whenever Gog Magog takes place. The final and BIG Feast is Armageddon, where the princes of all the earth and their armies are gathered against Jerusalem. ESPECIALLY since we are given details about the burying of those bodies over a 7 month period (and burning weapons for 7 years).

That fits with the literal, grammatical etc hermaneutic of the chapter.
 

Andy C

Well-Known Member
OH Boy! I just listened to Andy's Q&A part 2 that just loaded today.

OK his position-- stands this way
Gog Magog (GM for short ok) happens with the Second Seal. Which is the Second Horseman, so that puts it early on in the Trib unless Andy believes the Seals happen later. He was very clear on that timing for GM in his earlier videos on the subject of the timing of that war. So I'm confident that is his position.

But Andy is equally clear now that the birds of prey (feast of the carrion eaters) occurs at the END of the Tribulation at the time of Armageddon, just as Christ's Second Coming to destroy the armies of the earth gathered against Jerusalem aka Armageddon. This is the time of Israel's National Conversion to belief in Jesus as their Messiah as the passage in Matthew says (quoted up thread or in the 6 day war thread)

As such he says that all of chapter 39 of Ezekiel applies to the end due to verses 17- end being about the end of the trib). While leaving chapter 38 as the GM war at least it's beginnings and placing that at the time of the Second Seal. Which leaves an almost 7 year gap in between.

Problems with his theory:

Birds of prey don't wait 7 years to eat the bodies of the GM war, they are there for the ARMAGEDDON war at the end of chapter 39. All the verses he quotes elsewhere in Matthew and Rev agree with the Armageddon scenario at the end with the great feast for the carrion birds and animals. THAT feast of dead bodies for the birds and beasts occurs right at the end of the Tribulation. That is non negotiable in timing, it's got plenty of references that Andy quotes all about THAT feast.

Chapters and verses were not put in till AFTER the Bible was written, LONG after in the case of Ezekiel.

So Andy's argument that all of Chapter 39 belongs to Armageddon just because verses 17 - end are about that end of the 7 year Tribulation doesn't hold water. You can have very different time frames in the same chapter. Charles Larkin calls it the Mountain Peaks of Prophecy where the prophets saw different events, but not the time in between. Daniel for example.

Nor is it Biblical because Jesus HIMSELF split a verse in Isaiah, the first half of the verse applied to His first coming, while the SECOND half of the verse (which He pointedly didn't speak) applied to HIS SECOND COMING.

Since prophecies like the one Jesus quoted about Himself can have a gap of time, sometimes upwards of 2000 YEARS in the middle, it doesn't hold that just because Ezekiel is still talking about Gog Magog in the first half of Chapter 39 and mentions carrion eaters enjoying a feast in v 4 in the context of the Gog Magog section of the chapter, that we are looking at the SAME feast for the carrion birds and beasts at the LAST HALF STARTING in v 17.

In FACT by Andy's own reasoning that cant be because further detail includes the burying of the bodies, and the burning of the weapons BEFORE WE SEE THE CHANGE IN TIME AND SUBJECT STARTING IN V 17

Since we have that further detail of what happens after the first carrion bird feast in V 4, we aren't waiting around till Armageddon to begin burying the dead.

They'd be long decomposed if they waited 6 plus years to get eaten.

My proposal to clean up the dead body problem and solve a couple of logical inconsistencies are the following:

1: Don't tie Gog Magog to the Second Seal (there's the Antichrist problem I mention above). If you want those birds having one and only one feast, and it's Armageddon (which I don't agree with at all) then you have to move it closer to Armageddon, and actually make it part of Armageddon and that has all kinds of other problems.

2: Consider the concept we could be seeing not one but TWO feasts for the birds of prey and carrion eaters. One in v 4 whenever Gog Magog takes place. The final and BIG Feast is Armageddon, where the princes of all the earth and their armies are gathered against Jerusalem. ESPECIALLY since we are given details about the burying of those bodies over a 7 month period (and burning weapons for 7 years).

That fits with the literal, grammatical etc hermaneutic of the chapter.
I dont listen to Woods as much as I did before. IMO, some of his recent views are “out there”, but he always makes a good presentation of why he believes what he does. None of us can agree with each other 100 percent, but almost all of his older sermons I usually agreed with.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
Thanks, watching it now, to me he clearly says it happens at second seal which is in the tribulation.
That's what I thought he said too.
Only seeing this man first time, he's now talking of Mathew 27 v 52, 53 and saying the people are only resuscitated and died a second death like lazarus, alarm bells is are going off now with this man.
He was referring to the dead that came up out of their graves and were seen all around Jerusalem after Jesus died on the cross.

50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split 52 and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Andy was saying that this part of Matthew is correct even though scholars dislike this passage as it's only spoken of once. Scholars say it can't be because Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection. Andy's point was they were like Lazarus-- they came back to life as we know it into bodies that would eventually die again, like Lazarus. Unlike Christ's body which was glorified and never again subject to death which will be our type after the Rapture. Andy mentions it in context of people who survive the Tribulation going on living, having children and some eventually dying in the Millennium. Not us of course, we are in the glorified state but we can't have children after that time. Only people in earthly bodies can, and they and their children are subject to the usual problems of sin, and even death.
Mentioned also about Tarshish being Spain, dont think hes right on that one but he is allowed on that one, so for me I am rather disappointed with him dont want to get predujised against him so will look at other videos and see what I make of him.
Yeah, I don't agree with him there either because then you have to square with that verse in Isaiah that talks of the Jews being brought to the land of Israel for the final time, in MERCHANT SHIPS OF TARSHISH.

Well those were merchant ships alright, only they belonged to BRITAIN. Plus recent archeology suggests that Britain, named for it's tin mines was also considered "Tarshish" in Ezekiel's day. There are some differences with British tin vs Spanish tin, and British tin was found in Israel recently dating back to Solomons day long before Ezekiel.

He's usually right on things, this is the first real time I've disagreed with anything of substance (other than my quibble about Tarshish) and I'm not a Bible scholar so there's that to keep in mind too. I just view the Bible that it is meant to make plain good common sense and that it is literal if it doesn't say otherwise.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
For ease of listening, Andy Wood's Q & A 2 goes about half an hour discussing Roe v Wade and at the 32:00 mark or so he launches into this question of Ezekiel 38 and 39.

He also seemed to misquote the questioner and assume the questioner that asked about the timing, was of the position that Gog Magog occurred before the Tribulation. I didn't think that was an accurate assumption, so he spent some time on clarifying that. It sounded to me like the questioner had a very clearly defined question about the reasoning behind Andy putting the dead bodies of Gog Magog on the fields of Armageddon to be eaten at the very end, when Andy places the battle they die in with the Second Seal.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
For ease of listening, Andy Wood's Q & A 2 goes about half an hour discussing Roe v Wade and at the 32:00 mark or so he launches into this question of Ezekiel 38 and 39.

He also seemed to misquote the questioner and assume the questioner that asked about the timing, was of the position that Gog Magog occurred before the Tribulation. I didn't think that was an accurate assumption, so he spent some time on clarifying that. It sounded to me like the questioner had a very clearly defined question about the reasoning behind Andy putting the dead bodies of Gog Magog on the fields of Armageddon to be eaten at the very end, when Andy places the battle they die in with the Second Seal.
Thanks for the detailed recap , what was his view on the rapture occuring simultaneously with Ezekiel ? I think it may have been the last question on his Q & A
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
Mentioned also about Tarshish being Spain, dont think hes right on that one but he is allowed on that one, so for me I am rather disappointed with him dont want to get predujised against him so will look at other videos and see what I make of him.
Yeah Athenasius pointed this out about him ages ago, he's solid on other topics but seems to miss the mark a bit regarding his take on Ezekiel 38
 
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