Gog-Magog invasion timing

[mikhen7]

{In fact, this has sort of got me thinking about Turkey, which appears (presently) to be seriously at odds with Russia and Iran and Syria and Israel and the US. I've been trying to imagine how Russia might be expected overcome that particular obstacle to the Gog-Magog alliance.

Remember that the Islamic nations, even though they may be at odds sometimes, still all have a common goal, that is to destroy Israel. They may bicker and fuss, but they will unite under this goal. The fact that Vlad is on good terms with Israel at the moment seems to be more disconcerting, however, I think that needs to be as well. It seems to be implied that Israel is living securely in the land when Gog gets the evil thought, and turns to attack. Israel in security means many things, and I suppose one of them is not suspecting Russia to turn on them, but they will.

 

[Released]

Remember that the Islamic nations, even though they may be at odds sometimes, still all have a common goal, that is to destroy Israel. They may bicker and fuss, but they will unite under this goal. The fact that Vlad is on good terms with Israel at the moment seems to be more disconcerting, however, I think that needs to be as well. It seems to be implied that Israel is living securely in the land when Gog gets the evil thought, and turns to attack. Israel in security means many things, and I suppose one of them is not suspecting Russia to turn on them, but they will.

Hence this passage from Ezekiel 38:4:
And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords...

God in essence is putting hooks in the jaws of Israel's enemies in coercion of the attack, as they have no previous motivations- except Islam's desire for Israel's extermination. So it makes sense to assume Russia has no reason at this time to attack, but they will.

 

[sawas]

Remember that the Islamic nations, even though they may be at odds sometimes, still all have a common goal, that is to destroy Israel. They may bicker and fuss, but they will unite under this goal. The fact that Vlad is on good terms with Israel at the moment seems to be more disconcerting, however, I think that needs to be as well. It seems to be implied that Israel is living securely in the land when Gog gets the evil thought, and turns to attack. Israel in security means many things, and I suppose one of them is not suspecting Russia to turn on them, but they will.

Yeah, I think that's certainly plausible. Mostly, I've been inclined to reject the notion that the "peace and safety" requirement of Ezekiel 38 could only be met by the covenant with the AC., as argued by those in favor of a mid-trib timing for the war. Where do you stand on Psalm 83 as it relates to this issue?

 

[mikhen7]

Where do you stand on Psalm 83 as it relates to this issue?

Without getting into a long and drawn out discussion, the three main camps on the subject are:

1. Psalm 83 has already been fulfilled
2. Psalm 83 is nothing more than an imprecatory prayer.
3. Psalm 83 is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. That promoted by Bill Salus using the two concentric circles making up two rings of nations - The smaller ring of terrorist nations on or near Israels border, with Israel at the center, and the larger circle of Gog/Magog alliances surrounding the smaller.

I am a big believer in God answering prayer. I do believe God has judged all of the nations of the Ps 83 circle in the past, however, I also believe that God will continue to judge those nations that rise up against Him and the land of Israel. As far as imprecation is concerned, God's judgments are always designed to get the wicked to submit to Him (In most cases it is a remnant that survived). In that respect, these nations Salus identifies (or a remnant that survive) will one day submit to God.

Is it yet to be fulfilled? I think since these nations survive today and they are admittedly anti-Israel, that it must have an inherent fulfillment to come.

When? If we see any fulfillment like Salus imagines, I think it would be through Israel cleaning up the area to add to the security she rests in. In that respect, it could be one of the sparks that ignites the Gog/Magog invasion -- Isa 17 also falling into the mix.

 

[sawas]

Without getting into a long and drawn out discussion, the three main camps on the subject are:

1. Psalm 83 has already been fulfilled
2. Psalm 83 is nothing more than an imprecatory prayer.
3. Psalm 83 is a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. That promoted by Bill Salus using the two concentric circles making up two rings of nations - The smaller ring of terrorist nations on or near Israels border, with Israel at the center, and the larger circle of Gog/Magog alliances surrounding the smaller.

I am a big believer in God answering prayer. I do believe God has judged all of the nations of the Ps 83 circle in the past, however, I also believe that God will continue to judge those nations that rise up against Him and the land of Israel. As far as imprecation is concerned, God's judgments are always designed to get the wicked to submit to Him (In most cases it is a remnant that survived). In that respect, these nations Salus identifies (or a remnant that survive) will one day submit to God.

Is it yet to be fulfilled? I think since these nations survive today and they are admittedly anti-Israel, that it must have an inherent fulfillment to come.

When? If we see any fulfillment like Salus imagines, I think it would be through Israel cleaning up the area to add to the security she rests in. In that respect, it could be one of the sparks that ignites the Gog/Magog invasion -- Isa 17 also falling into the mix.

Right, got that. As I understand, Salus argues that the resolution of Psalm 83 would fulfill the "peace and safety" requirement for the Gog-Magog War. I would find this fairly compelling, removing, not all, but surely the most immediate threats that Israel faces now. Like you, I'm open to consider alternatives, perhaps as simple as assurances from Russia in it's emerging "peace-keeper" role in Syria.

As presented upthread, Andy Woods, who supports a mid-trib timing for the GM war, argues that Psalm 83 is only an imprecatory prayer and that the peace and safety requirement would only satisfied by the covenant with the AC.

Thus, my question of how important Psalm 83 might be to meeting that requirement. Sounds as if you don't think it is all that necessary?

 

[mikhen7]

Right, got that. As I understand, Salus argues that the resolution of Psalm 83 would fulfill the "peace and safety" requirement for the Gog-Magog War. I would find this fairly compelling, removing, not all, but surely the most immediate threats that Israel faces now. Like you, I'm open to consider alternatives, perhaps as simple as assurances from Russia in it's emerging "peace-keeper" role in Syria.

As presented upthread, Andy Woods, who supports a mid-trib timing for the GM war, argues that Psalm 83 is only an imprecatory prayer and that the peace and safety requirement would only satisfied by the covenant with the AC.

Thus, my question of how important Psalm 83 might be to meeting that requirement. Sounds as if you don't think it is all that necessary?

I have my reservations about a mid trib G/M and I respect Andy Woods. I have not read what he says about it, but I suspect someone has confronted him and he has had to answer to the burning of weapons for seven years after G/M. That would mean that around 3 plus years of burning weapons would occur in the Millennium. I do not think that will happen. I believe the final cleansing of the land occurs during the 75 day interval after the trib ends and before the Millennium begins. The AC and others confirm this covenant with Israel and that may guarantee some peace to them temporarily, but I have not come to the point where I equate that with them living securely in the Land. I will give it some thought.

 

[sawas]

Thanks. I would agree that the weapons burning is a problem for that position. In the Woods presentation that I reviewed (upthread) he didn't mention this either. Personally, I think the weapons burning becomes sort of a superfluous concern - certainly for the Jews who we might expect to handle it - at any point after the mid-point of the tribulation.

 

[mikhen7]

Thanks. I would agree that the weapons burning is a problem for that position. In the Woods presentation that I reviewed (upthread) he didn't mention this either. Personally, I think the weapons burning becomes sort of a superfluous concern - certainly for the Jews who we might expect to handle it - at any point after the mid-point of the tribulation.

True, but in doing so, they complete the seven years since the burning began.

Ezekiel 39:9–10 (NKJV)
9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them,” says the Lord GOD.

A personal and possible take on this, is that destruction will be so widespread across the land that many will not be dwelling in the cities (they will go out from them) as they are not the best place to survive for many reasons during times of war. But they will go into the outer areas and these weapons they gather will be used for fuel for the fires used in survival. I can see in my mind thousands of fires burning in the wilderness. Just a thought.

 

[Andiamo]

What exactly is burning, since weapons aren't made of wood anymore (?) Fuel and oil from the tanks?

 

[Ohioan]

Athenasius, I have seen a teaching on Jeremiah 8:13,20

This is what you had said in a previous post

Jeremiah 8:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 “The harvest is past,
the summer has ended,
and we are not saved.”

"I know that sounds obscure, but Jeremiah is talking to the Jews. And it's a lament. There was a time to repent, an interval but Jeremiah's weeping (it's in that context) is for his fellow Jews about to go into Babylonian captivity. The harvest is PAST, Summer has ENDED, and WE (the Jews) are not saved.

I have been considering that as a prophecy that was fulfilled then, and has yet to be finally fulfilled. If they are looking around at the incoming threats when summer is ended, they are not saved (implying that they hoped they would be-- I think they were hoping Egypt might help out in the first go round, and in this next go round that the AC is the boy wonder who can help them out.) The summer seems like the Church age. Time for grace. Grace extended to the last days of summer, then harvest is past (we are gone?) and they are not saved-- going into the furnace of affliction. "

When Abram was born Hosea 9:10 says

When I saw your Fathers, it was like seeing the early fruit on the fig tree

2000BC began the summer because there was the type of fruit Jesus was looking for

!000 BC Saul, David and Solomon the late fruit on the fig tree

then Israel rebels against god and goes into captivity it is during this time that Israel goes into the winter of unbelief

Israel is still disobedient Malachi 1 and 2

Summer began to come again when Jesus was born around 0 AD

30AD and from that time Jesus began to preach, Repent for the kingdom of heaven is near MATT 4:17

and at 33AD the fig tree had been cursed by Jesus because of no fruit(Mark 11:13,

14), but it was not the time for figs, but there will be in the future

it is also at this time when Jesus enters Jerusalem and makes the proclamation

41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,

42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

It is at this time Jeremiah 8:13 and Jeremiah8:20 come to pass, because he found no fruit that Israel again enters the winter of unbelief, which lasts for 2000 years until May 14, 1948 when the fig tree again comes to life as given by Jesus in Matthew 24:32,33,34

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Summer is coming into view again and the Song of Songs 2:11,13

See! The winter is past; the rains are over and gone. The fig tree forms it early fruit.


Once the Lord takes Israel to a place of safety to protect her from the serpent


13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


it is at this time that Israel will begin to believe and the fig tree will bear that summer fruit of figs.

 

[mikhen7]

There wil

What exactly is burning, since weapons aren't made of wood anymore (?) Fuel and oil from the tanks?

l probably be many things that will burn. I have always heard that lignostone was a property Russia and others have used to manufacture many weapons. One author wrote:

Grant Jeffries: It is interesting to note that new Russian weapons are being produced using a new material known as lignostone. Prepared from compressed wood-product, this material was developed in Holland to be used as fuel. However, the Soviet weapons laboratories discovered that this unique substance, called lignostone, is as strong as steel, light, pliable, and almost invisible to radar. These unique characteristics encouraged the Russian military to utilize this material in many military vehicles and weapons.

One of the characteristics of lignostone is that it bums at very high temperatures and can be readily used as an alternative fuel. The use of lignostone, and the fact that mobile Russian military units can carry large amounts of fuel (in containers 100 yards across) for their tanks and helicopters, may explain the prophecy that the defeat of this army will provide ample fuel for Israel for a period of seven years.

I'm not sure about what Jeffries says, but will investigate a little further. I do know that much of today's weaponry uses incendiary elements which bun with high heat, so high (white phosphorous) that it can be used to melt armor and is often used as an incendiary in anti-tank weaponry. No, there will not be anyone striking a match to burn a tank, but other compounds can be used to do this. The article below explains more about incendiaries.

https://heavenawaits.wordpress.com/burn-the-weapons/

 

[sawas]

True, but in doing so, they complete the seven years since the burning began.

Ezekiel 39:9–10 (NKJV)
9 “Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. 10 They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them,” says the Lord GOD.

A personal and possible take on this, is that destruction will be so widespread across the land that many will not be dwelling in the cities (they will go out from them) as they are not the best place to survive for many reasons during times of war. But they will go into the outer areas and these weapons they gather will be used for fuel for the fires used in survival. I can see in my mind thousands of fires burning in the wilderness. Just a thought.

What I meant to communicate, I think, was that Jews would have "bigger fish to fry" than managing this process in the latter half of the tribulation. This suggests to me the possibility that the GM war could begin earlier than just prior to the tribulation.

What exactly is burning, since weapons aren't made of wood anymore (?) Fuel and oil from the tanks?

Hmmm. I'd never heard the lignostone argument (mentioned above). I'd simply assumed that it was a likely reference to unexploded nukes and the like.

 

[daygo]

I have it's a substance which apparently lightweight and of wood like appearance very light and strong, Russia uses it in their military planes weapons and so forth, also can burn so could be the fuel that Israel will have after the Ezekiel war.

 

[Ohioan]

I will write this from Dr, Jack Van Impe's 11:59 and counting,

In chapter 50, verse 9, an assembly of great nations[superpowers] come up against Babylon from the North country. Russia is North of the USA. The advancing enemies' arrows are shot with reliable accuracy. This could picture an onslaught of missiles which Russia has perfected. The sneak attack which catches Babylon unaware,verse 24, cuts asunder and breaks the nation described as the "hammer of the earth" (verse 23). Is America symbolized
by a hammer? A hammer shapes and creates. Blacksmiths have been famous for their creation with hammers and America has created and shaped foreign policy for years. Now this sneak attack against the hammer of the earth is devastating because the archers(missile loaders) are called together against Babylon to knock her from her haughty pedestal and punish her for rejecting the Lord (verse 29) All this takes place through a nuclear holocaust, for God continues to say, "And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire[atomic warfare] in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him"(verse 32). Furthermore, "a sword is upon all their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her..."(verse 37). Then, " God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbor cities thereof [for homosexuality]...so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein..." . The reason "Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation..."(verses 40 and 41.
They[ the russians] shall hold the bow and lance and lance: they are CRUEL, and will not show mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea..."(verse 42)". At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations"(verse 46). Chapter 51 continues: Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain..."(verse 8). One of the reasons for this nation's fall lies in the fact that draft dodgers have resisted the call to serve. Yes, "The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women..."(verse 30). Another reason lies in the fact that terroristic saboteurs cause internal havoc in the nation. Verse 32 declares:"the passage are stopped... and the men of war[military leader] are affrighted [scared to death] ." "Passages"may mean "communication lines" and "stopped" is self explanatory.

 

[Kem]

In context, Isa. 26:20 speaks of the Jews in the tribulation, but that does not mean there may not be further layers for us to see, since we find that pattern in much of the Bible. I see no problem with also seeing a foreshadowing of the church and the rapture there. If so, that does not negate the mystery of the church being revealed only in the New Testament. Foreshadowing is not revealing!

Jumping in here with my migraine fogged brain and completely, totally agreeing with Jan! It appears to apply Israel in it's first application but surely foreshadows the rapture of the church which mystery is reveled in the NT.

 

[Kem]

Israel in security means many things, and I suppose one of them is not suspecting Russia to turn on them, but they will.

Sorry to go completely off topic but I wanted to ask Mikhen7 a question. Do you know of a good and not too pricey commentary on the book of Ruth. Thank you and I apologize for inserting it in here.

 

[mikhen7]

Sorry to go completely off topic but I wanted to ask Mikhen7 a question. Do you know of a good and not too pricey commentary on the book of Ruth. Thank you and I apologize for inserting it in here.

There are some very good ones out there. I like the "Be Committed" commentary by Warren Wiersby. It has commentary on Ruth and Esther. It can be purchased for as low as around $6.00 used. I recommend this because it is a practical study rather than a deep critical study. I have around 37 commentaries on Ruth and this one is great for individual or group Bible studies. Search for it at amazon or just google it.


PRELUDE

Ruth and Esther are the only women in the Old Testament who have entire books devoted to them. The Book of Ruth tells the story of a Gentile who married a Jew and became an ancestress of the Messiah (Matt. 1:5). The Book of Esther introduces us to a Jewess who married a Gentile and was used of God to save the Jewish nation from destruction so that the Messiah could be born.
The story of Ruth begins with a famine and ends with the birth of a baby, while the story of Esther begins with a feast and ends with the death of over 75,000 people. God is mentioned twenty-five times in the Book of Ruth, but He is not named even once in all the Book of Esther! Yet in both books, the will of God is fulfilled and the providential hand of God is clearly seen.
Why do we bring these two women together in this study? Because, in spite of their different backgrounds and experiences, both Ruth and Esther were committed to do the will of God. Ruth’s reply to Naomi (Ruth 1:16–17) is one of the great confessions of faith found in Scripture, and Esther’s reply to Mordecai (Es. 4:16) reveals a woman willing to lay down her life to save her people. Ruth and Esther both summon Christians today to be committed to Jesus Christ and to do His will at any cost.
It has well been said that faith is not believing in spite of evidence but obeying in spite of consequence. Ruth and Esther point the way to that kind of dynamic and exciting faith, and we do well to follow their example.


A Suggested Outline of the Book of Ruth


Theme: God providentially guides and blesses all who trust Him
Theme verse: Ruth 2:12

I. Sorrow: Ruth Weeping—chap. 1
1. Naomi tries to run from her problems—1:1–5
2. Naomi tries to cover up her mistakes—1:6–18
3. Naomi gets bitter against God—1:19–22

II. Service: Ruth Working—chap. 2
1 A new beginning—faith—2:1–3
2. A new friend—love—2:4–16
3. A new attitude—hope—2:17–23

III. Submission: Ruth Waiting—chap. 3
1. Ruth presents herself to Boaz—3:1–7
2. Ruth is accepted by Boaz—3:8–15
3. Ruth waits for Boaz to act—3:16–18

IV. Satisfaction: Ruth Wedding—chap. 4
1. Boaz redeems Ruth—4:1–10
2. The people bless Ruth—4:11–12
3. God gives Boaz and Ruth a son—4:13–22


Warren W. Wiersbe, Be Committed, “Be” Commentary Series (Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1993), 11.

 

[Kem]

Thanks Mike!

 

[sawas]

I will write this from Dr, Jack Van Impe's 11:59 and counting,

In chapter 50, verse 9, an assembly of great nations[superpowers] come up against Babylon from the North country. Russia is North of the USA. The advancing enemies' arrows are shot with reliable accuracy. This could picture an onslaught of missiles which Russia has perfected. The sneak attack which catches Babylon unaware,verse 24, cuts asunder and breaks the nation described as the "hammer of the earth" (verse 23). Is America symbolized
by a hammer? A hammer shapes and creates. Blacksmiths have been famous for their creation with hammers and America has created and shaped foreign policy for years. Now this sneak attack against the hammer of the earth is devastating because the archers(missile loaders) are called together against Babylon to knock her from her haughty pedestal and punish her for rejecting the Lord (verse 29) All this takes place through a nuclear holocaust, for God continues to say, "And the most proud shall stumble and fall, and none shall raise him up: and I will kindle a fire[atomic warfare] in his cities, and it shall devour all round about him"(verse 32). Furthermore, "a sword is upon all their horses, and upon their chariots, and upon all the mingled people that are in the midst of her..."(verse 37). Then, " God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbor cities thereof [for homosexuality]...so shall no man abide there, neither shall any son of man dwell therein..." . The reason "Behold, a people shall come from the north, and a great nation..."(verses 40 and 41.
They[ the russians] shall hold the bow and lance and lance: they are CRUEL, and will not show mercy: their voice shall roar like the sea..."(verse 42)". At the noise of the taking of Babylon the earth is moved, and the cry is heard among the nations"(verse 46). Chapter 51 continues: Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain..."(verse 8). One of the reasons for this nation's fall lies in the fact that draft dodgers have resisted the call to serve. Yes, "The mighty men of Babylon have forborn to fight, they have remained in their holds: their might hath failed; they became as women..."(verse 30). Another reason lies in the fact that terroristic saboteurs cause internal havoc in the nation. Verse 32 declares:"the passage are stopped... and the men of war[military leader] are affrighted [scared to death] ." "Passages"may mean "communication lines" and "stopped" is self explanatory.

Seriously, finding some televangelist that (also) thinks Russia is to the north of the US doesn't make it any more true. By that logic, every place on the earth is north of the US, using the right compass bearing and a willingness to go the long way around the globe. Don't you think that if your "US is Babylon" theory needs that kind of help, just maybe it isn't strong enough to stand on it's own merit?

As for Van Impe himself, I've never been very impressed with his eschatological views or, frankly, his powers of reasoning. One error, in particular, that he seems bent on making (over and over) is that of date setting. As referenced in this article by Todd Strandberg at Rapture Ready, Van Impe's record has demonstrated just how foolish this practice is. Personally, I think it can be interesting and useful to analyze current events in light of biblical prophecy, but going too far out that limb always ends badly.

2011-2018
For the past several decades, Jack Van Impe has hinted at nearly every year as being the time for the rapture. Normally, he has only gone out one or two years from the current calendar year. However, Jack’s latest projection for the rapture goes out several years. His new math uses 51 years as the length of a generation. If you add 51 years to 1967, the year Israel recaptured Jerusalem, you get 2018. Once you subtract the seven-year tribulation period, you arrive at 2011.

One more question: Have you yet made a case for Babylon's destruction occurring at any other point in time except at the end of the Tribulation? I don't remember.

 

[Ohioan]

https://www.quora.com/What-direction-is-Russia-from-the-United-States?share=1

What direction is the US from Russia

Michael Zajac
Answered Mar 16, 2018 · Author has 1.5k answers and 1.2m answer views


North.
You can get there by going east or west, but your trip will be much longer. The shortest distance is by going north, across the polar region.
Below is a map in a gnomonic projection, centred on the North Pole, and rotated to match the east-west centre of the contiguous forty-eight United States. With this projection, the farther from the centre, the more distorted the shapes of territories. The equator is pulled out to infinity. But this map has a key property: straight lines on this flat map represent straight lines across the globe (great circle routes), and their distance can be measured directly.
As you can see, the Russian Federation is across the North Pole from the United States. A straight line from any part of the contiguous lower forty-eight to any part of the RF points in a northerly direction.

Map generated using NASA G.Projector.
1.8k views · View 4 Upvoters

read at https://www.quora.com/What-direction-is-Russia-from-the-United-States?share=1

When you hit the "continue reading" a map will show up