Gog-Magog invasion timing

sawas

Well-Known Member
One event described in the Bible has been a mystery to me: the total destruction of Damascus. It seems out of character for Israel to do this.
The Gog-Magog invasion comes from the north and must cross Syria. Maybe when the storm of huge hailstones hits it brings down Russkie planes with nasty bombs onto Damascus.
So maybe the Syrians do themselves in by ignoring the Bible.

Forgive me, I'm still getting oriented here and now realize there is a whole sub-forum with prior threads on Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 which you can find here....maybe you've already found it?
 
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athenasius

Well-Known Member
I am not. Some guy I was listening to was, though.

You know how sometimes you hear a claim, and know instinctively that there's something not right about it, even if the person making the claim is using compelling argumebts backed up with evidence?

That is what I am investigating.
I hear you. Sawas has done it, for all of us. THANK YOU SAWAS!!!
Either way, I think that, in the context of Ezekiel and Revelation, at least, we might be comfortable thinking of Gog as a non-human actor who has/will cause mischief at multiple points in time.
Absolutely agree. The division of the nations -- the table of nations involves 70 nations and the business in Daniel here:
Daniel 10:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
and further down that chapter it reads:

20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

means that there are fallen angelic beings that are over the different nations.

The only one of the princes over the nations that isn't a fallen angelic being, is MICHAEL who watches over Israel. There are of course the angels who didn't fall, but it seems like out of the ones that rule over their nations, Michael is the one who watches over Israel and isn't a fallen one.

That all suggests that when Ez 38 happens-- we are looking at GOG the "Prince" behind the northern nation of Magog (which is Russia by any other name).

When Ez 38 happens, and then AGAIN when the uprising at the end of the millenium happens-- that same bad actor, that same fallen being, a "Prince" that ruled over Russia will rise up against God and finally be defeated.

And can I just say AMEN to your excellent and perfectly thought out reply here: WOWZERS! LOVE IT!!!!
So @cavalier973, I spent a little time this weekend reviewing some trusted sources on this subject and would add the following thoughts for consideration. (Oh, I'm still curious about the basis for the claim you mentioned above.)

Timing of Ezekiel 38 War - Seems most likely to occur prior to Daniel's 70th Week, rather than at Amageddon (Post-Trib, Revelation 16) or Post-Millennial (Revelation 20) point in time.
  1. Magog forces principally gathered from and attack from the north(per Ezekiel 38:15),
    1. rather than "the whole world" (Revelation 16:14)
    2. or "the four quarters of the earth" (Revelation 20:8).
  2. The purpose of the Ezekiel 38 attack is to come to "the land of unwalled villages" against the "people of Israel...to take a spoil" (per Ezekiel 38:11-16),
    1. rather than to fight "the battle of that great day of God Almighty" at the very specific location of Amageddon (per Revelation 16:14-16)
    2. or to attack (presumed) believers in yet another specified location referred to as "the camp of the saints" (per Revelation 20:9).
  3. The further purpose of the Ezekiel 38 war is that God would be "magnified", "sanctified", and "known in the eyes of many nations", per Ezekiel 38:23, and (perhaps most significantly) that He would make His "holy name known in the midst of my people Israel", per Ezekiel 39:7.
    1. In contrast, the Revelation 16 battle (at Amageddon) appears to be intended to punctuate the completion of the vial judgements at a point in time (very) near to the end of Daniels 70th week (per Revelation 16:17), immediately prior to the destruction of the City of Babylon (per Revelation 18 - all), holding the "marriage supper of the lamb" (per Revelation 19:9), Christ's physical return to earth (Revelation 19:17-18), and casting of the Beast and False Prophet into "a lake of fire" (per Revelation 19:20).
    2. The purpose of the battle in Revelation 20 is to deal with Satan, having been bound for the duration of the Sabbath Millennium, loosed at the end and, finally, cast into the "lake of fire", joining the Beast and False Prophet (per Revelation 20:10).
    3. In both, God's purpose would appear (to my reading) to be solely limited to rendering judgement, not to communicate anything about Himself for any redemptive or salvific purpose, as seems clear in Ezekiel 39:7 .
  4. The forces of Ezekiel 38 are defeated by "a great shaking in the land of Israel" and "an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone" (per Ezekiel 38:18-21 as well as "fire on Magog" (per Ezekiel 39:6),
    1. rather than "voices and thunders and lightenings" with what appears to be a global earthquake and "a great hail out of heaven" (per Revelation 16:18-21)
    2. or a fire that "came down from God out of heaven" per Revelation 20:9.
  5. In the aftermath of the Ezekiel 38 war, Magog's weapons are burned "with fire for seven years" (per Ezekiel 39:9-10) and the dead will be searched and buried for a period of 7 months in order to cleanse the land, per Ezekiel 39:12-16.
    1. In contrast, the events of Revelation 16 and Revelation 20 would seem to lack either the time and/or a clear purpose for either of these activities, which would seem to clearly presume the continuing occupation of Israel through to the end of Daniel's 70th week.
    2. As such, the duration of the weapons burning would (logically) suggest timing that precedes Daniel's 70th week.
So, it's been a little while since I've gone through this particular exercise. Any efforts to clarify my read on these distinctions would, of course, be welcomed.

Note to self - still need to check the sticky posts mentioned above. I'm sure there is much duplication of effort, but I definitely benefited from doing some of my own "legwork", as it were.

Just read the first "sticky", which is a very good synopsis, I think, with several additional points that I missed in the above analysis.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I hear you. Sawas has done it, for all of us. THANK YOU SAWAS!!!

Absolutely agree. The division of the nations -- the table of nations involves 70 nations and the business in Daniel here:
Daniel 10:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
and further down that chapter it reads:

20 Then he said, “Do you understand why I came to you? But I shall now return to fight against the prince of Persia; so I am going forth, and behold, the prince of Greece is about to come. 21 However, I will tell you what is inscribed in the writing of truth. Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these forces except Michael your prince.

means that there are fallen angelic beings that are over the different nations.

The only one of the princes over the nations that isn't a fallen angelic being, is MICHAEL who watches over Israel. There are of course the angels who didn't fall, but it seems like out of the ones that rule over their nations, Michael is the one who watches over Israel and isn't a fallen one.

That all suggests that when Ez 38 happens-- we are looking at GOG the "Prince" behind the northern nation of Magog (which is Russia by any other name).

When Ez 38 happens, and then AGAIN when the uprising at the end of the millenium happens-- that same bad actor, that same fallen being, a "Prince" that ruled over Russia will rise up against God and finally be defeated.

And can I just say AMEN to your excellent and perfectly thought out reply here: WOWZERS! LOVE IT!!!!

+1 Far out. I've always wanted to pursue research on this issue, but have only touched on it briefly. These are some excellent references to pursue. I've certainly understood the principals pertaining to (uhhh) the "powers and principalities" (and alliteration :)) cited in Ephesians 6:12, but just haven't followed through on it yet. Since @Spartan Sprinter 1 mentioned you above, I've been hoping we'd get your help., so many thanks.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
One event described in the Bible has been a mystery to me: the total destruction of Damascus. It seems out of character for Israel to do this.
The Gog-Magog invasion comes from the north and must cross Syria. Maybe when the storm of huge hailstones hits it brings down Russkie planes with nasty bombs onto Damascus.
So maybe the Syrians do themselves in by ignoring the Bible.

I noticed something interesting and I'm not sure how it fits BUT in the Jeremiah reference to the destruction of Damascus we see Hamath and Arpad mentioned here:

Jeremiah 49:23-27 New International Version (NIV)
A Message About Damascus
23 Concerning Damascus:

“Hamath and Arpad are dismayed,
for they have heard bad news.
They are disheartened,
troubled like the restless sea.
24 Damascus has become feeble,
she has turned to flee
and panic has gripped her;
anguish and pain have seized her,
pain like that of a woman in labor.
25 Why has the city of renown not been abandoned,
the town in which I delight?
26 Surely, her young men will fall in the streets;
all her soldiers will be silenced in that day,”
declares the Lord Almighty.
27 “I will set fire to the walls of Damascus;
it will consume the fortresses of Ben-Hadad.”

Hamath and Arpad are cities in charge of modern day governorates (provinces) in Syria
Hamath is Hama of the Hama governorates area
Arpad existed just north of Aleppo and is in the Aleppo governorate area.

They are side by side in NORTHERN SYRIA just along the border with Turkey.

And they are often in the news (when the news organizations can pull themselves away from attacking Trump long enough to cover the international news!) ( my inner grumpy old lady is peeking out here)

So by including them in that passage, they are significant. As you point out, Stuff is COMING from the NORTH. Turkey and Russia both cross into Syria, towards Israel from the North. So anything along their route in to Israel would be significant.

Down in vs 25-- that is a reference to Jerusalem. And it's a rhetorical question-- one that implies it's answer. So the prophet asks us WHY has JERUSALEM not been abandoned, in the middle of discussing the destruction of Damascus? Then Jeremiah gets back in vs 26-27 describing the fall of Damascus.

I've heard prophecy teachers point out that this odd little inclusion in v 25 points to Jerusalem being part of why Damascus is falling.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
+1 Far out. I've always wanted to pursue research on this issue, but have only touched on it briefly. These are some excellent references to pursue. I've certainly understood the principals pertaining to (uhhh) the "powers and principalities" (and alliteration :)) cited in Ephesians 6:12, but just haven't followed through on it yet. Since @Spartan Sprinter 1 mentioned you above, I've been hoping we'd get your help., so many thanks.
I'm no expert, nor am I a trained theologian. I'm a retired RN, wife to the guy in the photo, mother of 2, grandmother of 5 and a fellow believer that likes to follow rabbit trails.
 

katt

Well-Known Member
I agree that Psalms 83 has to happen before Gog/Magog.....I've often wondered if the war in Ezekiel 35 is the same war as Psalm 83....then there's Damacus in Isaiah...and the war Jeremiah speaks of...I believe all these wars happen before the rapture even Gog....in that prophecy Isreal gets seven years to burn the weapons of war as fuel...and takes seven months to bury the dead.....The prophecy says seven months and seven years..I take it literally and believe God...being the speaker of said prophecy...knew what he was talking about...
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
I noticed something interesting and I'm not sure how it fits BUT in the Jeremiah reference to the destruction of Damascus we see Hamath and Arpad mentioned here:


Hamath and Arpad are cities in charge of modern day governorates (provinces) in Syria
Hamath is Hama of the Hama governorates area
Arpad existed just north of Aleppo and is in the Aleppo governorate area.

They are side by side in NORTHERN SYRIA just along the border with Turkey.

And they are often in the news (when the news organizations can pull themselves away from attacking Trump long enough to cover the international news!) ( my inner grumpy old lady is peeking out here)

So by including them in that passage, they are significant. As you point out, Stuff is COMING from the NORTH. Turkey and Russia both cross into Syria, towards Israel from the North. So anything along their route in to Israel would be significant.

Down in vs 25-- that is a reference to Jerusalem. And it's a rhetorical question-- one that implies it's answer. So the prophet asks us WHY has JERUSALEM not been abandoned, in the middle of discussing the destruction of Damascus? Then Jeremiah gets back in vs 26-27 describing the fall of Damascus.

I've heard prophecy teachers point out that this odd little inclusion in v 25 points to Jerusalem being part of why Damascus is falling.

Oh good, in my earlier rush I'd been unable to wait to see if you answered the question posed by @Endangered and came back to check. So, these too are very interesting observations. Especially regarding v. 25, which would certainly put in a twist here.

Like many, I've been watching "Putin's Hot-Tub Party" evolve over time, with recent attention on Edogan's on-again/off-again love affair with Vlad. I would have loved to have been a multi-lingual fly on the wall during their last meeting. It seems that Erdogan's immediate goals in Northern Syria are at odds with Putin's and likely to bust out unpredictably. Based on some recent reporting, I'm not entirely certain that Edogan will even survive...the refugee problem appears to be a continuing & growing issue: they simply can't be shuttled through to Europe at this point. So, he's lost that bit of leverage.

Glad to hear your thoughts on this.
 

daygo

Well-Known Member
I'm no expert, nor am I a trained theologian. I'm a retired RN, wife to the guy in the photo, mother of 2, grandmother of 5 and a fellow believer that likes to follow rabbit trails.
I'm like your mirror opposite, no expert, retired rmn, married man with 2 step kids, 5 grandchildren 3 boys 2 girls, one granddaughter 14 yesterday. Follow rabbit trails, don't know about that one athenasius hehehe.
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
And a gift for discernment !!!!!!
thank you for the compliment but I prefer Adrian or Mike Henderson's more balanced views to keep me balanced. They have actual Bible training, and great wisdom and discernment that I rely on. I go off on these rabbit trails, enthusiastically following what ever got me curious, often ignoring the obvious in search of the odd stuff.

Oh good, in my earlier rush I'd been unable to wait to see if you answered the question posed by @Endangered and came back to check. So, these too are very interesting observations. Especially regarding v. 25, which would certainly put in a twist here.

Like many, I've been watching "Putin's Hot-Tub Party" evolve over time, with recent attention on Edogan's on-again/off-again love affair with Vlad. I would have loved to have been a multi-lingual fly on the wall during their last meeting. It seems that Erdogan's immediate goals in Northern Syria are at odds with Putin's and likely to bust out unpredictably. Based on some recent reporting, I'm not entirely certain that Edogan will even survive...the refugee problem appears to be a continuing & growing issue: they simply can't be shuttled through to Europe at this point. So, he's lost that bit of leverage.

Glad to hear your thoughts on this.

That reminds me, I didn't fully finish that question from @Endangered that dealt with the role of Israel in the destruction of Damascus.

So I shared the Jeremiah bit with verse 25 that asks that odd little rhetorical question about the city of my joy being Jerusalem in a sharp contrast to the smoke and death over Damascus.

But IF Isaiah is speaking of the very same event and not just a separate fulfillment many years apart, then Isaiah 17:9 and Isaiah 17:14 are really good clues to add a little more to the--

Who Dunnit? mystery of the Destruction of Damascus. The puzzle of how it happens. So here are the other 2 clues to that puzzle.

Isaiah 17 King James Version (KJV)
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel.

7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

As you can see Isaiah is pointing a finger squarely at Damascus for starting things, by coming in for spoil, to rob Israel as v 14 says. And as Isaiah is describing things, he points out that his strong cities (referring to the nearby cities that Damascus RULES over in other words this also involves Syria) are forsaken, left behind because of the children of Israel.

So they go in to steal from Israel, and they end up being attacked BY Israel.

And THAT puts it OUT of the framework of Ez 38 & 39 in which Israel is saved by GOD's actions on the invaders. This situation involves the IDF- the children of Israel taking action. Ez 38 & 39 GOD is their only hope and defence.

So parking the destruction of Damascus inside along with the other Ez 38 happenings doesn't work UNLESS

Unless the trigger for Ez 38 is actually Damascus-- and it occurs rapidly just after Israel finishes off Damascus.

And that might fit with how things are worded. That valley of the Rephaim mentioned here is one of Israel's main train corridors from the coast to Jerusalem. The glory of Jacob, Ephraim (northern Israel along that train corridor) and the glory of the children of Israel are all mentioned as being diminished.

So in this conflict Israel takes losses, but Jerusalem is not abandoned (Jeremiah 49:25) , unlike Damascus and Syrian strong cities. They are destroyed and abandoned.

Contrast that with the picture Ezekiel gives of a nation dwelling in relative peace BACK FROM SOME CONFLICT which we DON'T know for sure what that conflict is in Ez. It just speaks of a land that is brought back from the sword, dwelling in safety in Ezek 38:8 here:

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

That might just refer to the situation of the Jews as they came to Israel, that land was brought back from the sword of multiple conquests from the Roman Empire, down to the Muslim hordes and finally the Ottoman Empire, which ended around the time of the Balfour declaration in the aftermath of WW 1. Then the Jews -- not the land but the people have been at the point of the sword since the Roman diaspora till 1948. So that passage could refer to that. The MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL are a name for the West Bank aka Judea and Samaria. That itself is significant.

Back from the sword could also refer to one of the many times the IDF has to go out beyond their borders into Syria, Iraq or other places to do a raid to take out a threat. Or the many wars of survival since 1948.

It isn't necessarily a limited war with Syria, that expands into something that takes out Damascus.

And the cities of Aroer are puzzling. This reference makes the most sense https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/17-2.htm
and the Jewish Encyclopaedia agrees here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1804-aroer

Again, lots of interesting details. Not sure how it all fits. But if Isaiah and Jeremiah are referring to the same Damascus destruction, then it's definitely something that Damascus starts, with theft in mind and Israel finishes. When the dust settles, Jerusalem is NOT abandoned, and Israel survives although at a cost.
 

sawas

Well-Known Member
thank you for the compliment but I prefer Adrian or Mike Henderson's more balanced views to keep me balanced. They have actual Bible training, and great wisdom and discernment that I rely on. I go off on these rabbit trails, enthusiastically following what ever got me curious, often ignoring the obvious in search of the odd stuff.



That reminds me, I didn't fully finish that question from @Endangered that dealt with the role of Israel in the destruction of Damascus.

So I shared the Jeremiah bit with verse 25 that asks that odd little rhetorical question about the city of my joy being Jerusalem in a sharp contrast to the smoke and death over Damascus.

But IF Isaiah is speaking of the very same event and not just a separate fulfillment many years apart, then Isaiah 17:9 and Isaiah 17:14 are really good clues to add a little more to the--

Who Dunnit? mystery of the Destruction of Damascus. The puzzle of how it happens. So here are the other 2 clues to that puzzle.

Isaiah 17 King James Version (KJV)
17 The burden of Damascus. Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city, and it shall be a ruinous heap.

2 The cities of Aroer are forsaken: they shall be for flocks, which shall lie down, and none shall make them afraid.

3 The fortress also shall cease from Ephraim, and the kingdom from Damascus, and the remnant of Syria: they shall be as the glory of the children of Israel, saith the Lord of hosts.

4 And in that day it shall come to pass, that the glory of Jacob shall be made thin, and the fatness of his flesh shall wax lean.

5 And it shall be as when the harvestman gathereth the corn, and reapeth the ears with his arm; and it shall be as he that gathereth ears in the valley of Rephaim.

6 Yet gleaning grapes shall be left in it, as the shaking of an olive tree, two or three berries in the top of the uppermost bough, four or five in the outmost fruitful branches thereof, saith the Lord God of Israel.

7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

8 And he shall not look to the altars, the work of his hands, neither shall respect that which his fingers have made, either the groves, or the images.

9 In that day shall his strong cities be as a forsaken bough, and an uppermost branch, which they left because of the children of Israel: and there shall be desolation.

10 Because thou hast forgotten the God of thy salvation, and hast not been mindful of the rock of thy strength, therefore shalt thou plant pleasant plants, and shalt set it with strange slips:

11 In the day shalt thou make thy plant to grow, and in the morning shalt thou make thy seed to flourish: but the harvest shall be a heap in the day of grief and of desperate sorrow.

12 Woe to the multitude of many people, which make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, that make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters!

13 The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but God shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

14 And behold at eveningtide trouble; and before the morning he is not. This is the portion of them that spoil us, and the lot of them that rob us.

As you can see Isaiah is pointing a finger squarely at Damascus for starting things, by coming in for spoil, to rob Israel as v 14 says. And as Isaiah is describing things, he points out that his strong cities (referring to the nearby cities that Damascus RULES over in other words this also involves Syria) are forsaken, left behind because of the children of Israel.

So they go in to steal from Israel, and they end up being attacked BY Israel.

And THAT puts it OUT of the framework of Ez 38 & 39 in which Israel is saved by GOD's actions on the invaders. This situation involves the IDF- the children of Israel taking action. Ez 38 & 39 GOD is their only hope and defence.

So parking the destruction of Damascus inside along with the other Ez 38 happenings doesn't work UNLESS

Unless the trigger for Ez 38 is actually Damascus-- and it occurs rapidly just after Israel finishes off Damascus.

And that might fit with how things are worded. That valley of the Rephaim mentioned here is one of Israel's main train corridors from the coast to Jerusalem. The glory of Jacob, Ephraim (northern Israel along that train corridor) and the glory of the children of Israel are all mentioned as being diminished.

So in this conflict Israel takes losses, but Jerusalem is not abandoned (Jeremiah 49:25) , unlike Damascus and Syrian strong cities. They are destroyed and abandoned.

Contrast that with the picture Ezekiel gives of a nation dwelling in relative peace BACK FROM SOME CONFLICT which we DON'T know for sure what that conflict is in Ez. It just speaks of a land that is brought back from the sword, dwelling in safety in Ezek 38:8 here:

8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

That might just refer to the situation of the Jews as they came to Israel, that land was brought back from the sword of multiple conquests from the Roman Empire, down to the Muslim hordes and finally the Ottoman Empire, which ended around the time of the Balfour declaration in the aftermath of WW 1. Then the Jews -- not the land but the people have been at the point of the sword since the Roman diaspora till 1948. So that passage could refer to that. The MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL are a name for the West Bank aka Judea and Samaria. That itself is significant.

Back from the sword could also refer to one of the many times the IDF has to go out beyond their borders into Syria, Iraq or other places to do a raid to take out a threat. Or the many wars of survival since 1948.

It isn't necessarily a limited war with Syria, that expands into something that takes out Damascus.

And the cities of Aroer are puzzling. This reference makes the most sense https://biblehub.com/commentaries/isaiah/17-2.htm
and the Jewish Encyclopaedia agrees here: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1804-aroer

Again, lots of interesting details. Not sure how it all fits. But if Isaiah and Jeremiah are referring to the same Damascus destruction, then it's definitely something that Damascus starts, with theft in mind and Israel finishes. When the dust settles, Jerusalem is NOT abandoned, and Israel survives although at a cost.

I'm grateful for your very good, thorough, and useful analysis. It seems you've anticipated several questions, including those related to "the glory of Jacob" , Aroer, Ephrain, etc. My facility with issues relating to the history and purpose of the division of Israel into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms is a bit deficient, I'm afraid to say, That's a "rabbit hole" I definitely need to attend to and seems possibly to (maybe?) be relevant here.

Anyway, I tend to agree with your overall assessment, notably that the destruction of Damascas probably has nothing to do with the Ezekiel 38 war. Hence the question or assumption, I suppose, of whether or not it provides additional or parallel support for the Psalm 83 thesis. Any particular thoughts on that?
 

katt

Well-Known Member
But the Bible says the rapture is imminent, meaning no other prophecies need to happen before it happens...right?

It is what we've been taught....but we are to occupy til he comes...I didn't think we'd get to the year 2000 before the rapture...but we're still here...so..I plan my life like he won't be here til the 22nd century...but try to live it like it will be now...however after much more study..I believe we're only in hard times..and the very beginning baby stage of fhe beginning of sorrows....

It's supposed to come as a thief in the night to those who aren't paying attention..but those who are...know the signs of the times..Jesus told the Disciples pestilence...earthquakes....wars....rumers of wars...shouting of peace but there will be no peace...people being easily offended.....people calling good bad and bad good....etc...but the end is not yet...this is only the beginning of sorrows...but when you see these things..look up...your redemption draweth nigh.....meaning...if you're paying attention you will know when the time is near...near..not...exactly..but close..we've been in the last days since Penticoast...now we are in the beginning of the last of the last days...I believe we have many more sorrows to go before he comes...but he will not leave us here for the worst of it....
 

Salluz

Aspiring Man of God
thank you for the compliment but I prefer Adrian or Mike Henderson's more balanced views to keep me balanced. They have actual Bible training, and great wisdom and discernment that I rely on. I go off on these rabbit trails, enthusiastically following what ever got me curious, often ignoring the obvious in search of the odd stuff.

The little curiosities are like the dessert of bible study :lol you need the normal balanced stuff to be healthy, but I sure do love me some dessert
 

athenasius

Well-Known Member
I'm grateful for your very good, thorough, and useful analysis. It seems you've anticipated several questions, including those related to "the glory of Jacob" , Aroer, Ephrain, etc. My facility with issues relating to the history and purpose of the division of Israel into the Northern and Southern Kingdoms is a bit deficient, I'm afraid to say, That's a "rabbit hole" I definitely need to attend to and seems possibly to (maybe?) be relevant here.

Anyway, I tend to agree with your overall assessment, notably that the destruction of Damascas probably has nothing to do with the Ezekiel 38 war. Hence the question or assumption, I suppose, of whether or not it provides additional or parallel support for the Psalm 83 thesis. Any particular thoughts on that?
I’m having trouble getting onto the main computer. So my answers are going to be a little less than I’d like. I’m using speech to text and I can’t easily put Bible quotes or any other quotes in.

And rather than provide any clear answers I will simply lay out the puzzle pieces I’m working on trying to fit things together. Brace for confusion and murk. If you or anybody else wants to play with this jigsaw puzzle I’m all ears.

I don’t fully rule out the destruction of Damascus being a trigger to the Ezekiel 38 war.

The reason I say that still might be related is there is one spot in Isaiah 17: 7-8. It says in that day man will have regard for his maker and his eyes will look to the holy one of Israel. He will not have regard for the altars, the work of his hands, nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, even the Asherim and incense stands.

When you see that kind of wording it suggests that Israel is starting to turn towards God and that is the purpose of Ezekiel 38&39 as well as the Tribulation. So if we use the dispensational principle (that a lot of prophecy teachers use) that God’s program is either on the church or on Israel then we are looking at a period of time when the church is absent or that we are very close to the rapture.

As for the psalm 83 thesis of Bill Salus yes I think there is a STRONG connection.

3 passages that seem connected. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & the LAST HALF of Ezekiel 32. Plus Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8. I’m using Damascus as my key.

Isaiah 17 deals with the destruction of Damascus as well as Jeremiah. Jeremiah also deals with the destruction of Elam and Damascus. Ezekiel 32 has the destruction of Elam as well as a number of Psalm 83 combatants.

so Ezekiel 32:17-32 is my connection to the Psalm 83.

CAUTION: first off before running with this I should caution that I do NOT know if these were fulfilled in the past in someway that prevents them being connected just by being neighbours in Jeremiah 49, and repeating the destruction of Damascus & Elam. (South western Iran, shores of the Persian Gulf). So I may be using puzzle pieces that belong to some other prophetic picture by accident.

They do seem to connect the destruction of Damascus in Jeremiah 49 versus 23 through 27 with the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam. Verses 34-39.

and they might well BOTH be fulfilled in the tribulation. During the wars of the antichrist.

Read Ezekiel 32:17-32. That passage seems related to the passage in Jeremiah 49. You will see Elam mentioned in both. And in the Ezekiel passage it gives the reason for the destruction. It is terrorism. I got onto this passage through Bill Salus.

You will see a very clear break after verse 16 in Ezekiel 32 when Ezekiel mentions in verse 17 that this is a completely different vision. I know verses 1 through 16 this was fulfilled in the past.

if Ezekiel is the key that holds the whole thing together then it’s a possibility that the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam and Damascus are related to terrorism that somehow manages to involve Egypt and Jordan in some war that begins over terrorism.

Yet the Damascus passages which also include Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8 are about plunder— and that is similar to Ezekiel 38 again. Along with the way it’s worded about God using the events to turn Israel b to Him. And they also mention Gaza & Lebanon via the Tyre & Sidon mentions.

Once I took Ezekiel 32 as the key- the other nations mentioned next to Damascus & Elam look an awful lot like Bill Salus’s Psalm 83 players.
 
Last edited:

sawas

Well-Known Member
@athenasius Hey, pretty cogent for speech-to-text. I spent way too many hours today trying to figure out if I had the means to participate in video conferences without going out to get missing pieces of technology. No luck yet.

Anyway, there's lots to digest here, thanks very much for the detail (and cautions). Let me work through it all and get back ASAP. Your thoughtful responses are much appreciated.
 

Spartan Sprinter 1

Formerly known as Shaun
I’m having trouble getting onto the main computer. So my answers are going to be a little less than I’d like. I’m using speech to text and I can’t easily put Bible quotes or any other quotes in.

And rather than provide any clear answers I will simply lay out the puzzle pieces I’m working on trying to fit things together. Brace for confusion and murk. If you or anybody else wants to play with this jigsaw puzzle I’m all ears.

I don’t fully rule out the destruction of Damascus being a trigger to the Ezekiel 38 war.

The reason I say that still might be related is there is one spot in Isaiah 17: 7-8. It says in that day man will have regard for his maker and his eyes will look to the holy one of Israel. He will not have regard for the altars, the work of his hands, nor will he look to that which his fingers have made, even the Asherim and incense stands.

When you see that kind of wording it suggests that Israel is starting to turn towards God and that is the purpose of Ezekiel 38&39 as well as the Tribulation. So if we use the dispensational principle (that a lot of prophecy teachers use) that God’s program is either on the church or on Israel then we are looking at a period of time when the church is absent or that we are very close to the rapture.

As for the psalm 83 thesis of Bill Salus yes I think there is a STRONG connection.

3 passages that seem connected. Isaiah 17, Jeremiah 49 & the LAST HALF of Ezekiel 32. Plus Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8. I’m using Damascus as my key.

Isaiah 17 deals with the destruction of Damascus as well as Jeremiah. Jeremiah also deals with the destruction of Elam and Damascus. Ezekiel 32 has the destruction of Elam as well as a number of Psalm 83 combatants.

so Ezekiel 32:17-32 is my connection to the Psalm 83.

CAUTION: first off before running with this I should caution that I do NOT know if these were fulfilled in the past in someway that prevents them being connected just by being neighbours in Jeremiah 49, and repeating the destruction of Damascus & Elam. (South western Iran, shores of the Persian Gulf). So I may be using puzzle pieces that belong to some other prophetic picture by accident.

They do seem to connect the destruction of Damascus in Jeremiah 49 versus 23 through 27 with the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam. Verses 34-39.

and they might well BOTH be fulfilled in the tribulation. During the wars of the antichrist.

Read Ezekiel 32:17-32. That passage seems related to the passage in Jeremiah 49. You will see Elam mentioned in both. And in the Ezekiel passage it gives the reason for the destruction. It is terrorism. I got onto this passage through Bill Salus.

You will see a very clear break after verse 16 in Ezekiel 32 when Ezekiel mentions in verse 17 that this is a completely different vision. I know verses 1 through 16 this was fulfilled in the past.

if Ezekiel is the key that holds the whole thing together then it’s a possibility that the destruction of the area of Iran called Elam and Damascus are related to terrorism that somehow manages to involve Egypt and Jordan in some war that begins over terrorism.

Yet the Damascus passages which also include Amos 1:3-5 and Zechariah 9:1-8 are about plunder— and that is similar to Ezekiel 38 again. Along with the way it’s worded about God using the events to turn Israel b to Him. And they also mention Gaza & Lebanon via the Tyre & Sidon mentions.

Once I took Ezekiel 32 as the key- the other nations mentioned next to Damascus & Elam look an awful lot like Bill Salus’s Psalm 83 players.

Great insight there Athenasius, i'm dying to watch Gary Stearmans study video on prophecy watchers how he sees a rapture connection in the book of Philemon.

I can't wait
 
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