John MacArthur on Eternal Security

[Ruth]

Sure wish you would answer that last question of mine. But I guess your mind is made up. So, reluctantly but respectfully, I agree: this discussion between us has no future. Furthermore enough information has been put out for others to be able to see the issues.

I, too, trust you will find the truth prayerfully through our Lord and Savior through the teaching of the Holy Spirit. (And I do not offer that repetition of your words in a snarky or unChristian way. I truly mean it ... as I am sure you did.

May God continue to bless you.

But I HAVE answered that question - many times.

That is why I finally decided the discussion between us is futile.
If TWO professional writers keep going round and round the length of time we have then there is something else going on here and it is futile to try to satisfy the flesh on spiritual matters without taking it to the Lord instead.

Because if either of us makes the presumption that we can use mere words on a computer screen to reach the other one's heart after all of this - then it truly is to only satisfy the flesh.

And I never thought your reaching out in love could ever be 'snarky' so go in peace brother.

 

[open door]

OK, I love both of you in Christ, but I'm gonna jump in here & get both eyes blackened & a bloody nose. You are both professional writers, and very good ones. But, I sense a "pride of authorship - or position", here, and there is no place for that. This is an indepth issue, and enough info has been given to those out on which to base their own conclusions. In my opinion (which is useless,lol), if a person is truly saved, they are eternally secure. Each person has to answer that for him/herself. AM I SAVED? In our hearts, each one truly knows the answer - God certainly does. Please get back to what you do best. I speak these words not in anger, but in a sincere "let's get back to harmony in Christ". Your brother in christ - Troy

 

[Ruth]

OK, I love both of you in Christ, but I'm gonna jump in here & get both eyes blackened & a bloody nose. You are both professional writers, and very good ones. But, I sense a "pride of authorship - or position", here, and there is no place for that. This is an indepth issue, and enough info has been given to those out on which to base their own conclusions. In my opinion (which is useless,lol), if a person is truly saved, they are eternally secure. Each person has to answer that for him/herself. AM I SAVED? In our hearts, each one truly knows the answer - God certainly does. Please get back to what you do best. I speak these words not in anger, but in a sincere "let's get back to harmony in Christ". Your brother in christ - Troy

You are absolutely right and that is what I said in my last post.

 

[mom2four]

I will say that both Ruth and Matt's posts in this thread have helped clarify for me. Ultimately it boils down to the faith a person has......it is hard for me to put this into words, but by reading both of your postings, I realize for one to know if their salvation is eternal, they must examine their actual faith and not whether they sin or not. There are lots of examples in the Bible where those that had true salvation and a true faith in God did sin. As human's we are imperfect and will sin, but it is only through examining our own faith that we can know if we are saved. The post that Matt made clarified this to me..........do I have an unrelenting urge to be righteous?.....to please God?......and when I sin do I feel ashamed? If the answers are yes, then surely that means I am saved right?

I guess I need to examine my faith....my motivations....if God is my motivator then I am saved.....and it will only be evident OVER TIME......those of us who worry about our salvation are probably younger in our faith and so worry that maybe our faith and devotion is only temporary as we don't have a long track record to look at ourselves with.....does this make sense?

I know that my faith will grow even stronger when I have more examples to remember of my faithfulness.....does this makes sense? I think it is much harder for someone newly saved to have reassurance of salvation as knowing you are saved can only be measured by examining your faith over time....right?

Maybe I am missing the point again, but this is where my searching has led me. I always believed in Christ since a child and did pray, but I never really committed myself to him like now, so I do not think I was saved before.....except in the sense that God is outside of time and knew I was close to coming to faith always as he knows the end from the beginning.......but it is only retrospectively that I can say my the former state of my heart wasn't of adequate faith, though my current faith WAS in fact built upon that smaller state of faith and made it easier for my ultimate faith to grow.....so in a sense I was probably always saved.....or 'elected'. Even so it is only over time that I personally will know for sure.

I am sure I am not explaining this well......sure hope I am eternally saved.....I think my desire to follow Christ is stronger and that is a very good sign.

 

[mattfivefour]

OK, I love both of you in Christ, but I'm gonna jump in here & get both eyes blackened & a bloody nose. You are both professional writers, and very good ones. But, I sense a "pride of authorship - or position", here, and there is no place for that. This is an indepth issue, and enough info has been given to those out on which to base their own conclusions. In my opinion (which is useless,lol), if a person is truly saved, they are eternally secure. Each person has to answer that for him/herself. AM I SAVED? In our hearts, each one truly knows the answer - God certainly does. Please get back to what you do best. I speak these words not in anger, but in a sincere "let's get back to harmony in Christ". Your brother in christ - Troy

2: Troy.

 

[mattfivefour]

I will say that both Ruth and Matt's posts in this thread have helped clarify for me. Ultimately it boils down to the faith a person has......it is hard for me to put this into words, but by reading both of your postings, I realize for one to know if their salvation is eternal, they must examine their actual faith and not whether they sin or not. There are lots of examples in the Bible where those that had true salvation and a true faith in God did sin. As human's we are imperfect and will sin, but it is only through examining our own faith that we can know if we are saved. The post that Matt made clarified this to me..........do I have an unrelenting urge to be righteous?.....to please God?......and when I sin do I feel ashamed? If the answers are yes, then surely that means I am saved right?

I guess I need to examine my faith....my motivations....if God is my motivator then I am saved.....and it will only be evident OVER TIME......those of us who worry about our salvation are probably younger in our faith and so worry that maybe our faith and devotion is only temporary as we don't have a long track record to look at ourselves with.....does this make sense?

I know that my faith will grow even stronger when I have more examples to remember of my faithfulness.....does this makes sense? I think it is much harder for someone newly saved to have reassurance of salvation as knowing you are saved can only be measured by examining your faith over time....right?

Maybe I am missing the point again, but this is where my searching has led me. I always believed in Christ since a child and did pray, but I never really committed myself to him like now, so I do not think I was saved before.....except in the sense that God is outside of time and knew I was close to coming to faith always as he knows the end from the beginning.......but it is only retrospectively that I can say my the former state of my heart wasn't of adequate faith, though my current faith WAS in fact built upon that smaller state of faith and made it easier for my ultimate faith to grow.....so in a sense I was probably always saved.....or 'elected'. Even so it is only over time that I personally will know for sure.

I am sure I am not explaining this well......sure hope I am eternally saved.....I think my desire to follow Christ is stronger and that is a very good sign.

The point was never to create fear, sis, but to encourage a proper balance. I am glad the the discussion helped you understand, for then it served God's purpose.

As to your Christian walk ... I do not know you, but it is clear from your various posts that your heart is tender toward the Lord. And that is one of many evidences that you are His. So keep seeking Him, keep serving Him, and don't worry. He will keep you secure in Him.

 

[Ruth]

I will say that both Ruth and Matt's posts in this thread have helped clarify for me. Ultimately it boils down to the faith a person has......it is hard for me to put this into words, but by reading both of your postings, I realize for one to know if their salvation is eternal, they must examine their actual faith and not whether they sin or not. There are lots of examples in the Bible where those that had true salvation and a true faith in God did sin. As human's we are imperfect and will sin, but it is only through examining our own faith that we can know if we are saved. The post that Matt made clarified this to me..........do I have an unrelenting urge to be righteous?.....to please God?......and when I sin do I feel ashamed? If the answers are yes, then surely that means I am saved right?

I guess I need to examine my faith....my motivations....if God is my motivator then I am saved.....and it will only be evident OVER TIME......those of us who worry about our salvation are probably younger in our faith and so worry that maybe our faith and devotion is only temporary as we don't have a long track record to look at ourselves with.....does this make sense?

I know that my faith will grow even stronger when I have more examples to remember of my faithfulness.....does this makes sense? I think it is much harder for someone newly saved to have reassurance of salvation as knowing you are saved can only be measured by examining your faith over time....right?

Maybe I am missing the point again, but this is where my searching has led me. I always believed in Christ since a child and did pray, but I never really committed myself to him like now, so I do not think I was saved before.....except in the sense that God is outside of time and knew I was close to coming to faith always as he knows the end from the beginning.......but it is only retrospectively that I can say my the former state of my heart wasn't of adequate faith, though my current faith WAS in fact built upon that smaller state of faith and made it easier for my ultimate faith to grow.....so in a sense I was probably always saved.....or 'elected'. Even so it is only over time that I personally will know for sure.

I am sure I am not explaining this well......sure hope I am eternally saved.....I think my desire to follow Christ is stronger and that is a very good sign.

Three points:

1. One of the things I LOVE about the old testament is that God chose people who were sinners to hold up as those whom He loved. If we look at ALL of the men and women in the old testament none of them were stellar by any stretch of the imagination. Look at Noah - God knows us from the beginning to the end and even though God knew Noah would get drunk on the other side of the flood - He still loved Him and saved Him. But none are as great an example as David. David did a lot wrong but his heart was always set on pleasing God - except for those times indiscretion was his focus. And yet God chose David from a young age - knowing full well what sins he would commit. God said that He loved the heart of David. Not perfect by any means but loving God.
2. Our side of things is making a choice, the rest is God's.
In the garden of Eden - God never asked Adam and Eve anything except to trust Him and believe Him when He said it was not good for them to eat of that tree. Yet Eve chose to not believe God.
When Moses was leading the Jews through the desert, at one point God told him to hold up the staff and whomever looked upon it and believed would not be harmed by the evil that was overtaking the camp. At passover, no one behind those doors that were marked by the lamb's blood did anything to warrant them being passed over - but it was that blood that covered them and death passed them by. They CHOSE to put the blood over their door and believed God that it would protect them, just as we choose to believe God that Jesus' blood will protect us and cover us.
3. Burden is light - filled with joy and love and a feeling of freedom like you have never known before. Our salvation is never meant to be a burden. When we trust Him for our salvation and then go out with our burden's removed - we go out to have our lives be filled with peace- from knowing we are saved, love - out of such gratitude for His enormous gift, and joy - that He wants us to be filled with and live life abundantly. Abundantly does not mean financially or materiality but one that is abundant with peace, joy, and love. That can't happen if we are so busy inspecting ourselves for sin or worried about our salvation that we are pre-occupied with self.

I hope that helps.

God bless and pray about it and one last thing - the Holy Spirit is the only one who can and will confirm your salvation to you.
Ask Him to do that.
If you have realized your need of a savior, bowed your heart and head to Him and felt profound remorse for your sins, decided to die to self and live for Him - turning away from the world and towards Him, and asked to be born again - then He is faithful to give you your hearts desire.

Remember - Paul was the chief of sinners and what he wanted to do - he didn't. What he didn't want to do - he did.
And yet none of us doubt Paul was saved.

Just have the heart of David and God will smile.

If you want me to pull and post scripture an any of the points above, I will be happy to.

 

[Ruth]

The point was never to create fear, sis, but to encourage a proper balance. I am glad the the discussion helped you understand, for then it served God's purpose.

As to your Christian walk ... I do not know you, but it is clear from your various posts that your heart is tender toward the Lord. And that is one of many evidences that you are His. So keep seeking Him, keep serving Him, and don't worry. He will keep you secure in Him.

Matt - I am not going to try to jump to any conclusions here as to what you meant as we have deduced that you and I have difficulty in realizing the conclusions of one to another.

But I do want to share with you that I don't think that any of us should ever confirm salvation to anyone else. I have known and seen some pretty powerful witnesses of someone as a Christian only to see them fall - and fall hard because they were deceived.
The knew all the talk and memorized the walk but never were truly born again.

The Holy Spirit alone confirms to someone that they are saved.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Just wanted to say that caveat as John MacArthur did an impressive teaching on that once and I have never forgotten it.

 

[mattfivefour]

I agree with that caveat And I apologize if I was trying to confirm someone's salvation. But I did not want to cause someone to DOUBT their salvation if there was no cause. I tend to accept at face value someone's claim of salvation a) unless I see them living openly in disobedience and defiance of God; and/or (most importantly) b) unless the Holy Spirit gives me discernment that they are not what they seem ... (which actually happens quite a bit.)

 

[pjosiah]

Sorry folks, but 2 long threads on this topic. Can someone summarise finally what has been the conclusion. This is for the benefit of all.

Very often I see long threads on a topic, and many members & visitors would like to see a summary conclusion to get the gist and reaffirm their stands, and only get into the topic if it is something that they are interested to study. Am sure many here may not have all the time in their hands and yet would like to benefit from a thread.

Hope I am connecting and hope we can follow this as a practice, though not sure who will do the conclusion and at what point in the thread :

 

[IGWT]

Hi All.

Not wanting to get into any arguments here or to upset anyone. But when all is said & done both Ruth & Matt believe in eternal salvation IE: that you can not lose your salvation, so why not leave it there eh. That is all that matters that you both agree with what the word of God says on this subject & that is you can not lose your salvation. I would like to add a few things to that as well if I may & these are.

The principles of Eternal Security,
1, Salvation is not Repeatable. please check out Jn, 3:14-15; 4:13-14; 6:34, 51, these are more than sufficient to show this fact.

2, True Salvation produces works of Righteousness. I.E.: The Test of Faith. See, mat, 7:17-20; Titus, 2:11-12; Jas, 2:14-24; IIPet, 1:5-10.

3, Doctrinal Consistency IE, The true test of faith. See, col, 1:22-23; II Jn, 2.

4, Works of the Believer rewarded, See, Heb, 6:10.

5, The Basis of Exhortations to Godly Living, see, Rom, 12:1-2. This is based on what God has done in Caps 1-11, it is not based on a threat of losing your salvation. The same point is made in II Cor 5:15, again in Eph 4:1 states: I therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beseech you to walk worthily of the calling wherewith ye were called. In Eph 1-3 Paul deals theologically with all that God has done on the believers behalf in the work of salvation, in Chap 4 he deals with the practical applications of that salvation.

The Results of Sin in the believers life, See, 1Jn. 1:6-7, 9.

Persistent sin shows a lack of conversion, see, Jn 3:6-10 ( this is where present tense is used, it does NOT show that constant sin will result in the loss of salvation. If anything it may well show that the person was not saved in the fist place. To show true belief, faith produces / shows fruit, so persistent sin may show a lack of conversion in the first place.

Perfection is not achieved in this life, see, Phil 3:12-14.

The difference between position & practice, see, a good example of this is 1Cor. 1:2.

The relationship between works & salvation, see, Rom 4:4-6; Gal 2:21; II Tim, 1:9.

Evidences for Eternal security.
God the father
These will be found in: Rom 8:28-30; ICor, 1:8; Eph 1:4 & 11-12; Eph 2:7; Phi 2:12-13; Heb 2:20; Jn 10:25-29; Rom 4:21; Rom 8:28-30; Rom 14:4; Col 3:3; IITim 1:12; IThes 5:23-24; Heb 7:25; Jude 24.

Gods Infinite Love
Rom 5:7-10; Eph 1:4.

The promise of God
Jn 3:16; Jn 5:24; Heb 6: 16-19.

God the Son
Rom 8:34-39; Heb 5:8-9; Ijn 2:2; Rom 4:25; Eph 2:6; IJn 1: 1-2:2; Jn 17:1-26; Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25; Jn 10:27-29; Eph 5:25-27; Heb 5:9; I Pet 3:18.

God the holy spirit
IICor 5:17; Gal 6:15; Eph 2:10; Jn 14:16-17; ICor 6:19; Eph 2:22; IJn 2:27; ICor 12:13; IICor 1:21-22; Eph 1:13-14; 4:30; Phil 1:6.

Eternal security in Romans, this is 8:1-39.

The meaning of the word Eternal
Eph 3:10-11; Heb 5:9; Heb 9:12; IITim 2:10; IPet 5:10; Titus 3:7; Heb 6:17-19; IIThes 2:16; Heb 13:20 IIPet 1:11; Jn 3:14-16. 36; 6:47; 10:28; Titus 3:7.

The finished works of the Messiah
Heb 10:12-18; IPet 1:4-5; IICor 5:17; Eph 2:8-9; Jn 6:37-40; IJn 3:9; Rom 11:29; Jn 1:12; 3:3; Jas 1:18; IPet 1:3, 23; Gal 3:3. God has paid the price once & for all for salvation, never to be taken away once given.

Sins punished without loss of salvation
ICor 5:1-15; ICor 11:29-32.

I will finish with verses concerning the lost rewards in Heaven by those who are saved but sin never the less.
ICor 3:10-15; ICor 9:26-27; ICor 3:15.

I hope that this little study helps anyone who may have some difficulty in some area's of salvation, not that I am says those on this thread do not have. Its just I thought if I posted an in depth study on this subject, it may well help those who are having trouble with this subject. I must admit though, when I got halfway through this study my head started to spin a bit so I do hope I have got all the verses right & heading right, if not sorry.

God Bless you all
VoT

 

[Ruth]

Excellent VoT!
Thank you and hopefully your summary will answer the request by pjosiah!

 

[mattfivefour]

.

Excellent post, VoT! As MacArthur says: you must balance eternal security with perseverance of the saints ... which your study here has done.

But if I may, I think we can reduce your study to the following conclusions (for those who just want to jump to the bottom line

A: . Salvation is Eternal

B: . Salvation is not Repeatable

C: . True Salvation produces works of Righteousness.

D: . Persistent Sin shows a lack of conversion

E: . Sinless Perfection is not achievable in this life

Nevertheless, people who have truly been saved will grieve over their sins if/when they commit any and will obey God's Word and immediately go to Him and confess their sin. When we do that, God says He will be faithful and just to forgive us and the blood of Christ will continually cleanse us.

.

 

[IGWT]

Hi All.

Thanks you for your support, but I must say I still have a headache from compiling that study, chuckle. I am not a teacher or leader of any study group, I am just a single cell of the whole bride. So doing something like this for me was, well lets just say I was not sure I could do it. So I am pleased that it has been accepted & it will be of use to others.

God Bless you all
VoT

 

[Ruth]

Hi All.

Thanks you for your support, but I must say I still have a headache from compiling that study, chuckle. I am not a teacher or leader of any study group, I am just a single cell of the whole bride. So doing something like this for me was, well lets just say I was not sure I could do it. So I am pleased that it has been accepted & it will be of use to others.

God Bless you all
VoT

You did really good. I even copied and saved it for future reference should the 'need' come up again.

I am battle weary right now - but God willing -if the day should come where I am in need of a really good list of compiled scripture on this topic - be sure - I will use yours.

 

[open door]

Hi All.

Thanks you for your support, but I must say I still have a headache from compiling that study, chuckle. I am not a teacher or leader of any study group, I am just a single cell of the whole bride. So doing something like this for me was, well lets just say I was not sure I could do it. So I am pleased that it has been accepted & it will be of use to others.

God Bless you all
VoT[/QUOTE VOT, I copied your work for future reference, also. Thanks so much for this. Please do NOT understimate what the Holy Spirit can do, working through you. It's outstanding. Thanks

 

[Ruth]

Hi All.

Thanks you for your support, but I must say I still have a headache from compiling that study, chuckle. I am not a teacher or leader of any study group, I am just a single cell of the whole bride. So doing something like this for me was, well lets just say I was not sure I could do it. So I am pleased that it has been accepted & it will be of use to others.

God Bless you all
VoT[/QUOTE VOT, I copied your work for future reference, also. Thanks so much for this. Please do NOT understimate what the Holy Spirit can do, working through you. It's outstanding. Thanks

Amen! Isn't that the truth!

 

[bghtnpd4]

I believe in unconditional eternal security and feel the Bible is clear on this issue. Like Jack Kelley says, we are saved by what we believe, not how we may or may not behave. gracethrufaith.com has some great articles on this topic that I highly recommend. And, John MacArthur is one of my all time favorite teachers. I get to listen to his sermons every day on my way home from work, what a blessing he is!

 

[open door]

I believe in unconditional eternal security and feel the Bible is clear on this issue. Like Jack Kelley says, we are saved by what we believe, not how we may or may not behave. gracethrufaith.com has some great articles on this topic that I highly recommend. And, John MacArthur is one of my all time favorite teachers. I get to listen to his sermons every day on my way home from work, what a blessing he is!

Thanks, Shelle, I'm gonna try to tune in to his broadcasts when I can.

 

[IGWT]

Hi All.

If anyone is looking for a good teacher / pastor to listen to on lots of subjects, not wanting to upset anyone who has already talked about another teacher / pastor. But a good friend of mine is well worth listening to, his name is Pastor Billy Crone of the Niagara Frontier church, here is the link http://www.niagarafrontierbible.com/index.php I hope anyone who takes a look & who has never come across Billy before enjoys his studies. He is a great spirit filled man of God & his passion for our Lord shines through so much when you listen to him. Another great teacher is Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum of Ariel Ministries here is that link http://www.ariel.org/ . Oh & again thank you for all your support on the study I did, the headache has gone but with all you have said I think I am getting a swelling in my head, Chuckle, thank you all of you.

God Bless you all
VoT