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Ezekiel 38 and 39

Discussion in 'Gog / Magog' started by mikhen7, May 29, 2013.

  1. mikhen7

    mikhen7 Freed By Christ to Serve Christ

    Topic for discussion: When does the battle start and end? This gives us some insight into the closeness of the Rapture. Plus it is just fun to discuss.

    I have been researching Ezek. 38-39 again, based upon a question that has nagged at me for quite some time. That question concerns Ezek. 39:9 and the burning of weapons for seven years. So far, my view has not changed from my original 30 years ago. I believe this war will occur prior to the Tribulation because of the burning of the weapons for seven years. As most scholars will note, the prophetic descriptions of the weapons of warfare used in the end time warfare are usually descriptive of the days in which the prophets wrote. I believe God wanted us to simply understand that weapons are intended and nothing else. So God chose to use words which needed no further explanation to convey His meaning.

    To take things a step further I feel the invasion could be as far out as 3 1/2 years prior to the the beginning of the Tribulation. The Bible states the following concerning the seven years:

    Surely it is coming, and it shall be done," says the Lord GOD. "This is the day of which I have spoken. "Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out and set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and bucklers, the bows and arrows, the javelins and spears; and they will make fires with them for seven years. They will not take wood from the field nor cut down any from the forests, because they will make fires with the weapons; and they will plunder those who plundered them, and pillage those who pillaged them," says the Lord GOD.
    (Eze 39:8-10)

    From this passage the following can be deduced:
    1) It is a sure event. God says it will happen
    2) The burnings (for fuel????) last seven years - Important for timing and for life
    3) The city dwellers will set fire to the weapons - There will still be cities in Israel after the war, albeit in turmoil and distress - An interesting thought is that the ability to produce the energies of electricity and Natural Gas may be completely hindered during this time. That would cause the city dwellers to snatch up anything they can for fuel, be it for heat, cooking or boiling water. It is also possible that to live in the city is not safe because of the poor living conditions due to looting, gangs, disease etc... So that at least some these city dwellers could be living outside the cities (camping) in the countryside by night. A few butt-stocks could make a pretty good fire.
    4) The trips to the forests are unnecessary because the smaller weapons are combustible.
    5) The battle occurs in the land or as Ezekiel calls it, "The mountains of Israel."
    6) There seems to be a good amount of pillaging (looting of those who looted them) in the passage. This indicates that God allows pillaging to occur before He wipes the chief Prince (Demon) Gog's armies out. Some may say that it just means years of taunting and attacking though terrorist attacks.

    The systematic removal of most of the armies of Islam fighting in Gog's (the Chief Prince demon) commands fits very well with Lahaye's interpretation:

    The decimation of Israel's Islamic enemies could open the opportunity for the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple on the
    site of the temple mount in Jerusalem. In addition, the manner in which God destroys Israels enemies may open the
    hearts of the Jews to the truth of the gospel, which they will be responsible for disseminating to the world during
    the Tribulation because Christians have been removed by the Rapture.
    Global Warning pg. 136

    Ice adds, "If the tribulation is closely preceded by a failed regional invasion of Israel, in other words Russia and her Muslim allies, then this would remove much of the Russian and Muslim influence currently in the world today and allow a Euro-centric orientation to arise."

    I think there needs to be room for the seven years of the burning of weapons and this needs to be ended prior to the mid or end of the Tribulation. Even though I believe that it could happen as far out as 3 1/2 years before the Tribulation, I am not firmly convinced because the Rapture IMO must occur prior to this battle. Here is a very crazy thought but something to think about: If it were 3 1/2 out from the Tribulation, and the Church is raptured first, then those on earth who turn to Christ prior to the Tribulation will not be part of the church. What label would you give them? Pretrib saints? Let's face some will die of old age.

    Is it too far fetched to believe that because of the state of affairs in the land and the world, that God is providing these weapons as a way to make fires for, heating, cooking, and the purifying of water for survival while the days of darkness enshroud them?

    Below is a partial article in which Dr. Ice examines the various views on the timing of the event. I thought you all may find it enlightening.

    By Dr. Thomas Ice



    Various Timing Views

    Prophecy expert, Mark Hitchcock notes:
    "By far, the most controversial issue in Ezekiel 38-39 is the setting or timing of the invasion. The specific time of the invasion in Ezekiel 38 is difficult to determine."
    There is no doubt that this is the greatest problem to overcome in our understanding of this passage. In fact, the various positions are labeled according to one's view concerning when these events will be fulfilled.

    Among those who believe that the Gog-led invasion is historical, some believe that it has already occurred. For example, preterist Gary DeMar says, "The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one. . ." When does he believe that this battle took place? Amazingly, DeMar and only a handful of commentators insist that Ezekiel 38 and 39 was fulfilled by the events described in Esther 9, occurring in about 473 b.c. in the days of Queen Esther of Persia. The other views that take this invasion as a historical event place its occurrence in a time future to our day.

    Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins in their best-selling novel Left Behind, place this invasion of Israel right before the rapture of the church. The strength of this position is that it accounts for the burning of the weapons of war for seven years as mentioned in Ezekiel 39:9. However, Tim LaHaye has told me personally that even though they represented a pre-rapture position on Ezekiel 38 and 39 in their novel, he tends to place it after the rapture but before the tribulation.

    The next view, which is the one I hold at this time, is that it will happen after the rapture but before the tribulation. It will be during the interval of days, weeks, months or years between the rapture and the start of the seven-year tribulation. This view also accounts for the seven years of Ezekiel 39:9. I have always thought that one of the strengths of this view is the way in which it could set the stage for the Biblical scenario of the tribulation. If the tribulation is closely preceded by a failed regional invasion of Israel, in other words Russia and her Muslim allies, then this would remove much of the Russian and Muslim influence currently in the world today and allow a Euro-centric orientation to arise. So the tribulation is preceded by a failed regional attack on Israel and this is why the tribulation ends with all the peoples of the world attacking Israel at Armageddon. It could also set the stage for the rebuilding of the Temple as a result of Islamic humiliation.

    Perhaps the most widely held view put forth within dispensational literature is that this invasion will take place around the middle of the seven-year tribulation. This view often identifies Ezekiel 38 and 39 with an invasion of the king of the north in Daniel 11:40. Another major argument is based upon the statement that Israel will be "living securely, all of them" (Ezek. 38:8), which is the result of the false peace brought by the anti-Christ in the first half of the tribulation. This view has a lot in its favor.

    A significant number of Bible teachers believe that the Gog and Magog event is synonymous with what the Book of Revelation calls the Campaign of Armageddon (Rev. 16:16). Since Armageddon is a huge invasion of Israel around the time of the second coming and the invasion of Israel described in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is said to be in "the latter years" (Ezek. 38:8) and "in the last days" (Ezek. 38:16), then they must be the same event. A similar, but slightly different view is that the invasion occurs after the second coming of Christ, during the interlude between the tribulation and the start of the millennium. The main argument for this view is that Israel would be dwelling in peace (Ezek. 38:8).

    The last major view is that the battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39 will occur at the end of the millennium. The basis for this view is significant since Revelation 20:7-9 speaks of a conflict at the end of the millennium when Satan is released. Verse 8 says, "(Satan) will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war . . ." The strength of this view is obvious, Gog and Magog are specifically mentioned in the text.
     
  2. Lujack Skylark

    Lujack Skylark Well-Known Member

    (1) I believe the rapture comes first (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) (2) The world panics and there is a cry for peace and safety (1 Thessalonians 5:3) (3) Isaiah 17 chapter and Psalms 83 have likely occurred. (4) Israel has no friends in the world as the Bible believing Christians have been raptured. (5) Israel is dwelling in safety (Ezekiel 38:11) (6) Israel is prospering off its oil and natural gas discoveries creating a spoil. (Massive wealth) Ezekiel 38:13 (7) God destroys the Russian and Iranian armies and their allies. God makes his name known. (Ezekiel 38:23) (8) The 144,000 arise (Revelation chapter 7) and Israel burns its enemies weapons for 7 years. (Ezekiel 39:9) (9) The Jews build their temple in which the anti-Christ later blasphemies God. (2 Thessalonians 2:4) (10) All nations come against Jerusalem and Jesus Christ wins victory and reigns over the whole world. (Zechariah 14:3-9) Jesus return also mentioned in Revelation chapter 19.

    Its just my opinion on how Bible prophecy might play out. I hope to hear other people's opinions.
     
  3. RandallB

    RandallB Well-Known Member

    The most puzzling prerequisite for Ezek 38 is that Israel must be living in Safety. The Hebrew word is "Betach". The Lord a few chapters beforehand foretells when Israel will be living in "Betach".

    After Israel is regathered (1948), the Lord will execute judgments upon all their neighbors who hate Israel (Ps 83, Is 17, Zep 2, Zech 9, Amos 1) then Israel can live securely "betach" (pre-req for Ez 38).

    The word "securely" in Ezek 28 (betach) is exactly the same word used in Ezek 38 as its prerequisite condition. So whatever "betach" means, "securely" or "carelessly" or "whatever", the same word is being used by the same author just a few chapters apart. I feel pretty comfortable that they are describing the same situation.

    This passage seems to saying exactly when "betach" will occur for Israel -- After the Lord Himself executes judgments (most probably thru the IDF) on those surrounding & hate'n-on-Israel nations.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2013
  4. BuzzardHut

    BuzzardHut Bird Mod Staff Member

    Why can't their weapons burn into the Millennium?
     
  5. RandallB

    RandallB Well-Known Member

    I completely agree that Ezek 38/39 will clear the way for the rebuilding of their Temple. I believe that these outpourings of the Lord's judgments on Israel's enemies will cause Israel to recognize the Lord as their God.

    The outpouring of the Lord's Spirit upon all of Israel in Ezek 39 proves that this is a POST Rapture timeframe. If this were to happen during the Church Dispensation then the entire Israeli nation would be part of the Bride and would thus be missing during the Tribulation.

    However it seems that their belief will be more in line with where they left off in 70 AD. They will be looking for OT/Temple type worship/relationship with the Lord. The Lord will meet them right where they are as He did Peter when He was asking for Agape.

    Israel will finally turn from their secular ways with zero national desire for a Temple to an resolute and unyielding national need for a Temple to worship their Lord that they are finally turning towards.

    Towards the end of the Trib they will move from the OT understanding to the Gospel understanding, look upon the One that they have pierced, finally mourn for the sin of rejecting their Messiah and call out Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord. Thus the Lord will return.
     
  6. RandallB

    RandallB Well-Known Member

    One reason that comes to me is that Ezek 38/39 MUST be a pre-AC event.

    There is no way that the AC would allow this attack to occur after he has just "confirmed" or "enforced" a treaty with Israel. His whole initial agenda is to take over the world thru peace. There is absolutely no mention of a Temple or the AC in Ezek 38/39. In fact it looks like the rebuilding of the Temple occurs soon after the end of Ezek 39 which corresponds to the Temple being operational before the 3.5 year mark of the Trib.

    The trials and tribulations of the AC are fairly well laid out and there is no mention of Ezek 38 activities.
     
  7. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai Well-Known Member

    I do not see how this can be a post rapture event I believe it will occur before we are raptured because

    1. Israel needs 7 years to burn the weapons They can do this while living in peace and safety.
    2. When the A/C commits the act of desecration, the Jews are told to flee immediately and not to take anything with them.
    3. I believe that the temple could be built and operational well before the tribulation as the Jews in general have not accepted Christ as their Savior and as such are still operating under Old Testament Law instead of New Testament Salvation/Grace. and once #2 happens, they get the message LOUD AND CLEAR and repent. They will pay a heavy price though...


    I am gonna wait for Sean to fill me on on the rest of this.
     
  8. Sean Osborne

    Sean Osborne Well-Known Member

    Sweet! RandallB and YEMM both did a really concise job of dotting the "i's" and crossing the "t's" with the critical eschatological details. Very nice Bro's, very nice! :thumbup
     
  9. Lujack Skylark

    Lujack Skylark Well-Known Member

    (1) God's name must be magnified before the tribulation. (Isaiah 17:7), Psalms 83:18 and Ezekiel 38:23) (2) At the time of tribulation there is only two choices. Worship Jesus Christ or worship anti-Christ. (3) Rapture could happen any time before the tribulation. (4) Please correct me if I am wrong.
     
  10. mikhen7

    mikhen7 Freed By Christ to Serve Christ

    Thanks for the discussion. Sean and are pretty much on the same page as we have discussed this from other aspects previously.

    RandallB and Lujack - You say it is a Post-rapture Pre- AC event
    YeuEmMaiMai - You say it is a Pre-Rapture event
    BUZZ - You think it is possible for the weapons to be burned into the Millennial Period.

    I also believe it is post Rapture. In Ezek 38-39 Israel is living in relative peace. Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 have occurred temporarily relieving them of the onslaught of terror at any moment by their neighbors. This systematic destruction of their local enemies brings in the IRE of The Great Bear and His demonic Chief Gog who musters up what looks to be an Islamic offensive against Israel.

    1) I believe the Rapture occurs before this war, chiefly because it seems to suggest that God is turning His attention toward Israel in order to Hallow His name and raise up the 144000 believers who will be His evangelists throughout the world. Jacob's Time of Trouble Jer. 30:7, will begin or soon begin at the end of this War.
    2) The War paves the way of the West to come in and try its hand the dysfunctional diplomacy it has become known for.
    3) European Powers to be quickly take advantage of the dilemma by offering to bring Peace once and for all through a Charismatic, deceptive AC the world will fawn over. (seven year contract signed) Israel does not want war anymore either.
    4) With Islamic powers nearly decimated - not the religion but the warring factions, The Temple opposition will be greatly subdued and the temple will be built even at the behest of AC who will eventually desecrate it.
    5) So I feel the Rapture will occur before Ezekiel 38-39, giving time for the weapons to be gathered in the land and be burned during stressful times.
    6) I think a good case can be made that the seven year burning either ends at Tribulation mid-point or End, but I lean toward the end.
    7) To answer Buzz's question, The Millennium is a time of peace and goodwill, a very much anticipated time of holiness to God. I do not think that remnants of war will remain into the Millennium. The 75 day period between the End of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennium, Dan. 12:10-13 cp. vs. 13) is a time for the Judgment of the Nations, Mt. 25:31- 46, and a time for the cleansing of the earth in preparation for the Millennial Reign of the Lord.

    Table 1 (Scant overview of events)

    [TABLE="width: 1500"]
    [TR]
    [TD]First Part of Tribulation[/TD]
    [TD]Second Part of the Tribulation[/TD]
    [TD]In gathering for the Judgment of the Nations (Sheep and Goats)
    Mt. 25:31- 46;
    [/TD]
    [TD]Cleansing Period and wilderness Judgment
    allowing entry under the Rod and into the
    Millennial Kingdom and Subsequent Wedding Feast Lev. 27:32; Ezekiel 20:34-38; Mt. 24:40-41;
    [/TD]
    [TD]Tally From Mid Point of Tribulation -
    The extra 75 days will encompass the
    preparation for the Millennial Reign of Jesus, which will include the Wedding Feast!!
    Mt. 22:2-14, Luke 14:15-24
    [/TD]
    [TD]Millennial Reign of Christ[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]1260 Days [/TD]
    [TD]1260 Days[/TD]
    [TD]30 days ( 1260 + 30 = 1290, Dan 12:11)[/TD]
    [TD]45 days
    [/TD]
    [TD]1260 + 30 + 45 = 1335 Days (Dan. 12:13)[/TD]
    [TD]1000 years of Peace till end[/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]A Times, a Time, and 1/2 a time[/TD]
    [TD]A Times, a Time, and 1/2 a time[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]42 Months[/TD]
    [TD]42 Months[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]3 1/2, 360 day prophetic years[/TD]
    [TD]3 1/2, 360 day prophetic years[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Begins with the seven year treaty (2520 days)[/TD]
    [TD]Begins with the Setting up of AOD
    (Abomination of Desolation[/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Sealing of 144,000 - Two witnesses arrive[/TD]
    [TD]First Flight to Wilderness (Mt. 24:16)
    This is a flight of Survival -
    Here for sure remaining weapons will be burned in survival mode.
    [/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [TR]
    [TD]Ends with Killing of the Two witnesses[/TD]
    [TD]Ends withe the Second phase of the Second Advent the
    Glorious Appearing of the Lord Jesus Christ with the
    Angels and Saints, Zech. 14:4 -5; Jude 1:14; Titus 2:13[/TD]
    [TD]Second Flight to the Wilderness for Judgment
    (Zech. 14:4-5, Gathering for Ezek. 20:34-38; Mt. 24:40-41)
    [/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [TD][/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    God Bless!!
     
  11. tjplaw

    tjplaw Here for the duration.

    Your not wrong.
     
  12. daygo

    daygo Well-Known Member

    Here is my take on it for what its worth. Ezekiel 38/39 has to happen after the rapture and before the 7 year tribulation. Reason being, using common sense or wisdom whichever way you want to see it, as I like to use common sense. There are 4 things that are happening I can only see as some sort of supernatural in nature, 1/ whats happening in america govt, obama, the weather, the level as I see it as an outsider of spiritual decline etc in america. 2/ building of the third temple and what is happening within the temple mount area and everything associated with it can only be described as supernatural, it will be built only at its time its meant to be built and not before, 3/ this whole 2 nation thing with the so called palestinians 2 state solution has to be supernatural, 4/ the weather and other natural disasters have to be supernatural. There may be more I do not know.

    I think using common sense that god will rapture the church, then turn his attention onto Israel is a good one because he will show Israel and the other nations that he alone is god, together with the rapture there will be a huge revival/awakening. The jews all over the world will become more discerning and flock to Israel and demand the third temple to be built, the muslims will be in no shape to argue or even want to, because of the Isaiah 17/ psalm 83 prophecies will by this time have been fulfilled. Then the world will turn from the age of grace back to the age of the law esp. in terms for the jew.
    The burning of the weapons could take place a few years before the tribulation because of the jews being persecuted in the great or later half of the tribulation and fleeing to escape the said persecution. The rest we know. :thumbup
     
  13. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Super Moderator Staff Member

    With respect, to your first point, I would say that I believe you will find that Isaiah 17:7 refers to the last day when Israel is saved; Psalm 83 refers to any time the enemies of Israel come against her (though I believe its fullest fulfillment will be at the time described in Isaiah 62 and Zechariah 14; and Ezekiel 38 refers to the events in the first half of the Trib. I fully agree with the rest of your post.
     
  14. YeuEmMaiMai

    YeuEmMaiMai Well-Known Member

    If we look at Biblical History and see how God has operated in the past it goes like this:

    A. Warning stage
    B. God removes believer(s)
    C. God brings Judgement

    1. Adam and Eve: They eat the apple thus sinning against God, Unpon discovery (I believe that God knew before it happened), God IMMEDIATELY removes them from the Garden of Eden.
    2. Cain and Able: Cain kills Able, God finds out and IMMEDIATELY marks Cain so that no others will want to be around him.

    The 3 best examples:

    3. Flood: Noah is put into ark after it is complete and warning is given. Flood happens IMMEDIATELY after the door is closed and the Ark is sealed.
    4. Sodom and Gamorah: Lot is removed from the area. God rains fire and brimstone down IMMEDIATELY after Lot has made it to safety
    5. The Israelites and the Eygptians: God closes the Red Sea IMMEDIATELY after the Jews get out. All the Egyptians that followed the Jews into it are killed.

    When the Rapture happens, the Tribulation begins IMMEDIATELY thereafter. This is bore out by Scripture. There is not going to be any easy time as the bowl, seal and trumpet judgements are laid upon the earth...
     
  15. RandallB

    RandallB Well-Known Member

    The Bride is promised to be entirely kept from the time and place of the Lord's judgments not merely preserved through the judgments.

    Noah and his family are not a model of the Bride. They were preserved through the judgment.
    Enoch is the model of being kept from the time and place of the judgment entirely.

    Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego are also a model of being preserved through the judgment.
    Daniel is the model of being kept from the time and place of the judgment entirely.

    In Luke 17:32 Jesus Himself tied the story of Lot & family to the Get Out Of Dodge scenario of the Mid Tribulation.

    So I agree that the Lord gets His people out of the way before His judgment strikes, however the above examples show that the final Great Trib judgments will fall on Jerusalem right after the Believing Jews get out of town to Petra/Bozrah where they will be preserved.

    Enoch and Daniel were entirely out of harms way an undetermined amount of time before the Lord's judgments struck. They are the models of the Bride/Rapture.

    Pre-Flood, Pre-Furnace, Pre-Fierce Anger
     
  16. RandallB

    RandallB Well-Known Member

    Really don't see where you are coming from on this one....

    Ps 83 definitely talks about specific nations and people groups not just "any time" that enemies of Israel attack.

    A very significant item is that ZERO of these groups mentioned in Ps 83 participate in the Ezek 38 battle. It defies the imagination to believe that they would not participate in a war if they were still around to do so. They MUST be gone before Ezek 38 begins.

    Psalm 83 describes a prayer for judgment against a group of nations that are surrounding Israel and that hate her and want Israel wiped off the map. This prayer was prayed during a time when Israel was in a Covenant Relationship with the Lord. It was prayed so that the Lord would answer it at a time when they weren’t in a Covenant Relationship. Zep 2, Zech 9, Jer 49, and Isa 17 describe the Lord’s judgments against these Ps 83 nations in answer to that prayer.

    The people groups mentioned in Ps 83, Isa 17 not only include the hostile / scornful neighbors (political areas) but also include these hostile / scornful refugee & terrorist groups.

    The People Groups -- Hostile / scornful refugee & terrorist groups
    Tents of Edom (descendants of Esau) = Palestinians in Tents
    Ishmaelites = Arabs
    Hagrites = Clan of Ishmaelites
    Inhabitants of Tyre = Lebanese
    The Descendants of Lot = Moabites and Ammonites

    The following table describes the fates of the nations mentioned in Ps 83:

    [​IMG]

    The Fates of these Ps 83 nations many times include terms of “perpetual desolation” and “no inhabitant” thus we know none of these Fates have been fully executed in history so therefore they are still in the future.

    These verses describe a Ps 83 confederation of nations that have a different purpose than the Ezek 38 nations. Ps 83 want to destroy Israel so that it is “Remembered No More” (contrast with Ezek 38 purpose - “taking booty”). This is right out of today’s newspapers and right at our doorsteps. Their prophesied Fates cause us to catch our breath. Ps 83 et al allows Israel to feel secure ("betach") at least temporarily after defeating all the scornful nations that surround Israel. So it looks like the Ps 83 judgments happen before and may even be part of the cause of the Ezek 38 invasion.
     
  17. Sean Osborne

    Sean Osborne Well-Known Member

    I absolutely disagree with this 100%. I quite simply would not attend a church where the pastor was teaching this interpretation because in my view it is an absolutely incorrect last days teaching. Isaiah 17 in its entirety is a pre-70th Week prophecy and fulfillment.

    I absolutely disagree with this 100%. I quite simply would not attend a church where the pastor was teaching this interpretation because in my view it is an absolutely incorrect last days teaching. Psalm 83 in its entirety is a pre-70th Week prophecy and fulfillment.

    Ditto for the two previous teachings... absolutely incorrect last days teaching in my view. Ezekiel 36 through 39 constitute a pre-70th Week prophecy and fulfillment.

    The triple sequential fulfillments (like a flood of prophetic fulfillments) of Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 (also Joshua 13:1-7, Isiaiah 11 and Ezekiel 28) and Ezekiel 36-39 establish the conditions on earth for the start of the 70th Week and the opening by Jesus Christ of the Seven Seals and all the judgments upon the earth that follow thereafter.


    :tsk:
     
  18. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Super Moderator Staff Member

    Sean, my brother, with the greatest respect for you and your studies, I must nonetheless disagree with your statement that "Isaiah 17 in its entirety is a pre-70th Week prophecy and fulfillment." I know that your view is a popular one these days, but I see the Damascus prophecy as three verses long, with t he prophetic time changing at the beginning of the fourth verse. Unfortunately the uninspired chapterization and versification of Scripture lead us into interpretations that may not be intended in the original— the common chapter and verse scheme lumps some things together that are actually separate thoughts, while separating some things that should be kept kept together. That aside, whether the Damascus prophecy itself is pre-70th week is open. I personally believe it is, but it is in no way definitive that it has to be.

    I also most respectfully disagree with you and my good friend Mike Henderson (not to mention many others) that Ezekiel 38 and 39 are pre-70th week.

    As to Psalm 83, I view it
    as prayer not as prophecy because it lacks a response from the Lord to the writer's imprecations (which response is always included in prophetic passages.)

    I know it is always more comfortable to hew to the currently popular interpretations of prophecy but I find much of today's popular interpretations to be as much a result of eisegesis as exegesis. I did not realize this at the time that I developed my understandings of these passages, but Dr. Thomas Ice agrees with me. He sees Psalm 83 and the Ezekiel; chapters as being at the time of Armageddon and Psalm 83 as being no more than a prayer. But whether he did or not, I will respectfully and gently stand on what I read in Scripture until the Holy Spirit opens my understanding otherwise. God called me to follow Him, not man. In no way do I think that I am currently the possessor of all knowledge nor of complete understanding ... except when it comes to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    I trust His Holy Spirit to lead me into what I need to know in order to fulfill my calling.

    Nonetheless, my brother, although I disagree with you, I love you in Christ and pray that your witness for Him may produce much fruit for His Kingdom.
     
  19. Barbasol

    Barbasol Well-Known Member

    Psalm 83 was written by Asaph who was known to be a Seer (2nd Chronicles:29:30). Is a Seer different than a prophet? Did a Seer simply just "see" future events unlike a Prophet who would also hear from the Holy Spirit and given direction or be told what he was seeing? Is a Vision the same as a Prophecy? Sounds to me like they might be different but I really don't know. Could it be Asaph was shown latter day events in the middle east and was so distressed he wrote this Psalm?
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  20. daygo

    daygo Well-Known Member

    I like your thinking, you have a very good point. :thumbup
     

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