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Why can't the earth/universe be millions of years old?

Discussion in 'Christian Chat' started by twerpv, Nov 10, 2010.

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  1. twerpv

    twerpv Well-Known Member

    First off, I believe the bible completely. It is the Word of God. My question is not the history of mankind, as one can tract the years from Adam til now. However, could the earth, universe, et. all have been created millions of years before Adam was created?
  2. micah719

    micah719 an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40

    No. The Lord said "evening and morning" to tell us what kind of "yom" He was referring to in the creation account....literal days.
  3. Meg

    Meg Well-Known Member

    Actually, I'm on the Old Earth side of the fence. I think "evening and morning" are allegorical.
  4. Hannah

    Hannah Well-Known Member

    For this answer you are depending on science.

    If you take some time to look at what secular science has to offer as their evidence you will find their evidence is based on several methods of dating rocks. All of which have been found to be faulty. Also their theories of rock formation has been disproved and not by Christian scientists but other secular science theories. So there is contradiction in the science world.

    Here is an example I can give you where secular scientists are at odds.

    We are told we are in the midst of Global Warming. When you hear this you assume ALL scientists agree with this and you will find that is not the case. There are secular scientists that hold to a Global cooling theory where they think that changes in the currents that run through the world's oceans are slowing down and dropping the temperatures.

    Not a scientist so you will have to look up the detail on the internet to get the full explaination of Global Cooling. From my own reading on this theory they have as much evidence to prove their theory as do those who hold to Global Warming. So who do you Believe?

    Science is not foolproof. My main interest at school and univeristy was Maths and the only science I managed to have a good understanding is of course Physics. Although my school days are long behind me I always loved keepig up with new theories in Physics and any breakthroughs in Maths. Some of the LAWS of Physics I was taught in my young days have been found faulty and disproven since they have been able to hold acutal experiments on the Space Station. You see those who gave us many of our formulas and theories were men here on the ground who were very observant and able to deduce much we were able to prove about Space, however we now know that some of those formulas and theories when put into practice were actually wrong.

    When I was at school and university these theories and formulas were taught to me as if they were totally true. It was a blow to me many years later to have some of them disproved. I wanted to believe that some of what mankind has learned and some of our knowledge was rock solid. This is not the case.

    As a Believer as a Christian and a some one who has lived a few years on this earth now, I have found that the only place I can find Truth that is Rock Solid is in God's Word.

    Now I may not be able to bring enough evidence before you to show how Carbon Dating can be faulty or how some geological theories on Rock Formation is not completely sound. However you need to work through the evidence for yourself.

    Personally I am happy to just believe that the Word is true even though I may not be able to fully support it with teaching or knowledge from science or other disciplines.

    What I am saying is you may never get foolproof secular evidence to dispell the ideas that the Earth is Billions of years old or to support what the Bible teaches. You will just have to make a stand and not worry about those who try to push Evolution or other Theories that do not agree with the Bible.

    In the end only the gospel brings mankind to salvation and only the Holy Spirit gives us revelation of God's Word.
  5. Kist

    Kist Well-Known Member

    There are a few things I consider in these discussions.

    1. The dating methods used to "calculate" the age of the Earth are far from reliable. Making me heavily doubt the fact that the Earth is actually that old. To give a simple example, rock layers created in 1801 by a volcanic eruption are being were tested and came out with an age of billions of years. Then something isn't right if you ask me. Also as Hannah pointed out, it depends which scientists you want to belief. There are actually scientists that belief that there is something seriously wrong with old earth thinking.

    2. The old earth dating methods don't take into account things like Noah's flood. It is clear to see how such a cataclysmic event would upset all the earth layers, and if you read the story of Noah as it is presented in the Torah then it even gains power. Considering things like Volcanic eruptions all over the place and such. 70% off all earth layers have been formed by volcanic activities.

    3. Let's continue to assume dating methods are correct for a second. Just for fun. We don't know how old the earth would have dated when it was first created. Adam and Eve surely seem to have not been created as baby's then why would we assume that the dating methods would produce an age of 6days old when the earth was first created? Again it is down to taking everything into account. What bases do you start your calculations on.

    4. Now my most important objection against an old earth, The Word wasn't written for the benefit of God, it was written for us. I always get a little tired of people saying well a day for us, isn't the same as a day for God. Eventhough that might be the case, though I doubt it, since He created day and night, does that even matter when He wrote it for us? We always say, well God gave us His Word, and He is all knowing, all powerful, and He knows us intimately. Surely the being that created everything, earth, time, stars, all living creatures, etc. would understand what a day means for us? By using that logic, a day in His Word for us, should mean just that a day. Not a week, not a month, not a year, and even more so not a billion years. Also I have to ask then, how long should the Sabbath be then(afterall He rested on the 7th day, but who knows that could be the seventh billionth year or something?), since a day is apparently just an easy word meaning something completely different? You see changing the Word of God in one place, brings problems in another.

    5. I'd have to ask if you believe scientists as in, if you believe that the earth layers are actually 6billion years old, then what is the consequence of sin? Wasn't the consequence of sin death? Ofcourse sin separates us from The Father, but it also brought death into this world. Now let's look at the layers of the earth scientists put on billions of years. Human remains can be found in them, millions of animal fossils. It takes away the consequences of sin, again going in against The Word. Plus it also leads to suggest Adam was not the first human. You see problems left and right.

    Surely trusting God on His Word is a better thing to follow, than to follow those that seek nothing else in life than to rebel against Him, and lead people a stray?

    Anyway to end with a positive, atleast you don't believe in evolution.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  6. the stranger

    the stranger Well-Known Member

    This site I am giving you is the best I know of in this field. There is allot of great information here and it should keep you busy for a while.

    I hope someday to see that museum (the creation museum in the Cincinnati area)

    Get Answers - Answers in Genesis

    God bless
  7. GlennO

    GlennO Well-Known Member

    twerpv - First, do you believe God created Adam as an adult male (Genesis 2:7)?

    Stranger - Nice link! :hat:
  8. twerpv

    twerpv Well-Known Member

    I believe exactly what God told us in Genesis. My question is more curious vs. looking at "science". I really don't put much stock in the secular scientist say due it's obvious bias and built-in deception. I just wonder sometimes if the Trinity created the universe and, I don't know, played in it. Does God play? Then after a while figured, it's time to make mankind, let's do this. There are just so many aspects to God that we know, how many do we not know about? I don't believe we have the capacity to truly understand it all. I also think it is dangerous to think we have "arrived" and understand His word completely. I am not suggesting taking His word and adding or changing it. We've been warned on that matter. I do know that God has revealed scripture to me anew on several occasions.

    Anyway, I love Christ, continue to try to know Him and serve Him in the manner He calls me.
  9. mattfivefour

    mattfivefour Super Moderator Staff Member

    And that is all that truly matters. The curious minds God gave us with which to explore our world are wonderful things when they are kept in right relationship with Him. It is only when we use our minds to question God, Hiw Word, His goodness, or His very existence that we come into trouble. God likes us to ask questions ... and there is not a single question that we are not permitted to ask Him. And for every question His Word has an answer where we are intended to know an answer. But there are some things God has reserved unto Himself (Deuteronomy 29:29) and it is spiritually dangerous when we persist in trying to determine answers where none have been revealed. If they are important, God will reveal them. If He does not, then we need to bring our thoughts into submission to God.

    Probably the best answer to the question "Why the earth cannot be millions of years old" is that God has said sin and its result, death, only entered the world through Adam's fall. Prior to that there was only life, no death. So, God's Word being true, how could there have been millions of years of life and death of animals and plants previous to that?
  10. Meg

    Meg Well-Known Member

    OK, I'm going to stick my neck out... Where does that leave dinosaurs and the archaeological record of the development of early human settlements? (And no, I don't buy the monkey-to-man evolution for a second). I believe Genesis, yet I can't deny the very legitimate archaeological record. Furthermore, if the Flood happened a lot earlier than what's it supposed to be, 4000 BC or something, then they wouldn't find the evidence in that layer, since thats not where to look for it in the first place.
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  11. Kist

    Kist Well-Known Member

    I get your point Meg, however if you study the earth layers you'll see most, if not all have been created extremely fast. Take for example the Grand Canyon, which scientists claim to have been formed over millions of years, in fact the evidence suggests that it was formed by a large surge of water(that means in a short time), similair canyons have been formed in a similair way. Most other rock layers have the same characteristics. Mostly seen in the folding of the earth layers. What do you think happens to earth layers when water floods the entire world? The only way there would be enough water to flood the entire world is if the sea floor would rise, and the earth needs to be reasonable flat, that is why the Torah testimony of the flood is so interesting as it speaks of volcanic eruptions all over the place, suggesting the earth was being ripped open everywhere etc. I have to wonder how that would effect the rock layers.
    But ok, let's look at some of the fossil records, they are indeed quite interesting. Dinosaurs for example, a lot of those dinosaur bones actually suggest they are younger than people say they are. They consist hemoglobine, hemoglobine can't survive in bones for over 10000years scientists say, then how can they be a billion years old? Dinosaur bones have been found in such pristine condition scientists at first claimed they were buffalo bones. Another clue can be found in the fossils of mammoths. A lot of them are found with undigested food in their stomachs, and some even in their mouths. What does that suggest? They must have been hit by something extremely fast, and inmediately gotten fossilized. Fossilisation is a process that requires immense speed in covering the animal. If it takes a long time to cover them, then they don't get fossilized they just disappear. Again suggesting those fossil records actually come from the Flood. Then you have the early settlements, and the development of them. Remember that after the Flood people had to start all over again, suggesting settlement development. Speaking about human history, human remains have been found in earth layers 12million years of age(human maps have been found in such layers), how could that be if science claims we have only been around for 200000 years? Something just doesn't add up there.

    Anyway I get your reasoning Meg, but I just don't agree with them. Not on a scientific level, nor on a theological level.
  12. Meg

    Meg Well-Known Member

    Kist, I completely agree with your statement about the Grand Canyon, with which I am personally familiar, been there about 4 times. I'll enlarge on that theory that it was caused by the Flood with a point about eastern San Diego County along a route near the Colorado River which is the river that flows through the Canyon. In E San Diego County, there's an area which if I remember right is called Devils Canyon. The landscape in that area is strewn with massive boulders which are rounded in a way which looks exactly like river stones, only on a massive scale of size. Somebody might say glacier, but the smoothness and roundness suggests water.

    As to mammoths, the ones found with food in their stomachs and mouths were found frozen in Siberia and the far American/Canadian north, and were probably avalanche victims (sorry). One thing that really haunts me is the Lascaux type caves though. These are caves in France and Spain that have paintings made by human beings showing creatures such as wooly mamoths and wooly rinosorouses which went extinct before any other recorded history. Then there are the settlement layers in many places which have evidence of thousands of years of generations of human residents building towns on the same spots (these are called "tells" in the middle east). Even the Bible gives an accurate age of Ur of Abraham's day, but Ur is considered a relatively recent development in the long span of time.

    :idunno: Thats just me. I really don't have a stake in being right about this, I simply can't deny science because of Scripture nor Scripture because of science. Both are important parts of my awareness and my life. So I really don't feel a need to push my case, but I do have compassion for folks who see things in a similar way. I don't see why we Christians should be forced to try to explain away science and I worry that God is disrespected by unbelievers when we try too hard to do that.
  13. Kist

    Kist Well-Known Member

    As long as it is a theory that those mammoths were hit by an avalanch it isn't convincing evidence to me personally. Scientific models, using Noah's flood, have shown that in some areas temparatures would have droppen drastically in no time at all. Also, I've always been told that they fell in rivers and such, again inconsistencies apparently. Really can't those evolutionists get their story straight for a change?:hehheh

    As for cavedrawings in france, I can only say we don't know how far people got before the flood. Who knows if people lived there before the flood, afterall they had two thousand years to get there. Or perhaps they just liked to draw paintings.

    And again I'm forced to say, dating methods aren't as reliable as they are made out to be, so I'm not going to follow those, simple as that. When I see a scientific method, that is far from reliable I stay away from it. Just my personal opinion. Anyway, I'm not ignoring science, I'm just following a different set of scientists than you are. Anyway Adrian's point remains valid, if the earth is billions of years old, death was before sin, and that is something I'd atleast find odd.
  14. GlennO

    GlennO Well-Known Member

    twerpv said:

    Col 1:16-17
    (16) For by him[Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
    (17) And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
  15. Bobbi

    Bobbi Well-Known Member

    Exodus 20:9-11 blocks all attempts to fit million of years into Genesis 1. "Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God: in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For in six days; the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the sabath day and made it holy." The New Answers book 1, by Ken Ham, pg 27

    Belief in millions of years undermines the Bible's teaching on death and on the character of God. To accept millions of years of animal death before the creation and Fall of man contradicts and destroys the Bible's teaching on death and the full redemptive work of Christ. It also makes God into a bumbling, cruel creator who uses disease, natural disaster, and extinction to mar His creative work with any moral cause but still calls it very good. The New Answers book 1, by Ken Ham, pg 27

    Belief in millions of years also makes the rest of the Bible false because God said in Exodus 20 9-11 that He created the heavens and earth in six days, so if He is lying here the rest cannot be trusted either.
  16. micah719

    micah719 an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40

    ...is essential to the attempt to maintain an appearance of intellectual respectability according to the world's measure. Safety in numbers...but even all of creation is outnumbered by One.
  17. GlennO

    GlennO Well-Known Member

    Stefan said:
    Elegant summary:thumbup
  18. Navyblue

    Navyblue Well-Known Member

    Inelegant 'Ditto!!' :hehheh

    Given the Gift of 'Choice,' by God, we can choose to believe rightly or wrongly, as we choose. God knows,,,,the truth. Gonna let Him let me in on the secret, so, He know that I know, zactly the way things are. Har, Har, Har. :yeah: :rolleyes (Oh My)
  19. twerpv

    twerpv Well-Known Member

    Are we assuming that "He created" in six days and rested on the seventh, it means 24 hrs. in a day? Are we assuming that our definition of a "day" is correct? I get the sin, animal death statements. Never thought of it that way and it sure makes sense. My original question has to do with the earth, universe, etc. not animals and man.
    Anyway, I am certainly not arguing here and would not take a position against God's word. Just wondering aloud.

  20. micah719

    micah719 an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40

    If we read it as it says, it says days.

    On the faith scale, believing He spoke the universe into existence in 6 days is not as awesome as Him saving us from hell and making us holy and adopting us as His children simply by grace through faith, and even that not of ourselves! He is powerful enough to do it in 6 literal days, He could have done it in 6 minutes or seconds or nanoseconds or trillion gazillion years or all at once, but for His purposes He chose days, and didn't even break into a sweat. Good enough for me; the only stuff I can effortlessly create out of nothing is trouble, so if the sole Universe Creator there is or ever will be says "days", "days" it is, and Halelujah!
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