Gifts Of The Holy Spirit

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Sadly, these "pastors" have been enticed from the simplicity of the true gospel to another gospel, a gospel where the focus is on earthly riches and on self, not on service, not on Christ. If God blesses us with earthly riches it is so we can use them for His glory, not so we may consume them upon our own lusts. An additional result spawned by the ministries of these preachers is that of the cult of personality. People are primarily drawn to the preacher and his words, not to Christ.
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
The Bible. Read it again and again, until you know it at least as well as the multitude of preachers out there...that way the dodgy ones won't find it so easy to pull the wool over your eyes, and maybe you can even help others. Why get your spiritual food second hand?

The devil has been casting doubt on God's Word since the beginning. Eve added to the Word, subtracted from it, doubted it, and disobeyed it. The Lord Jesus Christ defeated the devil by sticking to Scripture, especially when the devil tried to trick Him by twisting it.

There's enough material on this forum about Mr Jakes, and members that know much more about him than I do. Perhaps there are also some that know a bit more about journaling. Though perhaps it is a waste of time....

It has taken me some time, thought and deep prayer to find a way to respond to this expression of everything that makes Christianity so alien to me. I find it tragic that Christians are so easily provoked to bitter fury by the slightest mistakes of men and women who have been raised upon a pedestal which should be occupied by Jesus Christ alone. I find it unspeakably tragic that Christians seem so utterly dependent on someone human, be they Mr Jakes or anyone else, to do their thinking for them, that every word these people utter is scrutinized and judged with such bitter fury. We should, by all rights, be familiar enough with Scripture and confident enough in our individual relationship with Jesus Christ that we are first, able to identify the difference between a deliberate effort to mislead and exploit, and a simple misunderstanding or mistaken slip. Furthermore, we by all rights have a responsibility to have a strong enough devotional life that we have the confidence to build on the good things taught, determine what agrees with Scripture and work with that, and to accept that no human being is so perfectly right in all they say and do, that all we need do is hang on every word they say and let them work out our Salvation for us. Christians have a habit of defending their own mistakes while bitterly condemning the mistakes of those who have been placed on the pedestal. It is our responsibility to do our own thinking, to recognize the difference between a deliberate liar such as Todd Bentley or Bob Larson, and somebody like TD Jakes, who may well have gotten into trouble recently, but who in his lifetime has displayed great sincerity towards the Lord, and made very strong efforts to get more right than he did wrong.

So condemn me if you must for saying that. I have one retort: John 7:24
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
I would interject here the words I posted in the "Was Jesus Rich" thread—
-------------
Respectfully, loving is not shutting our eyes to error. We have the responsibility to point out error when it is preached. And we have the responsibility to point out those who cause division in the Church by teaching against God's Word. Paul did it with Peter in person; he did it in his epistles, naming names; John did it also in his epistles. It is not love to see a dangerous pit ahead of a brother and allow him to fall in it because you don't want to criticize him. Love is saying, "Bro! There's a pit ahead! Keep going the way you are going and you will fall in and harm yourself." And we need to do it even if (especially if) he cannot see it and argues with you as a result.

Now there can be honest differences among believers in the interpretation of some passages of Scripture. I always give others the benefit of the doubt in such cases and, while it is my understanding of scripture that they are wrong, nonetheless do not argue with them over it. But there are some doctrines that are so foundational to the gospel and the knowledge of God that we MUST stand up and defend those things against error.

I agree that there are people who are so quick that they jump on every little thing and treat honest differences of interpretation of scripture and different understandings of what God is saying as though they were cardinal doctrines that are being threatened ... and so they attack the person who is "guilty" of that in their eyes. This is not of God. Every rebuke offered must be scriptural and done in love and with the building up of the other person in mind. And it must never come from a position that somehow "I am the possessor of all truth because of my understanding of the Word." As I said, there are some doctrines that are foundational and must be defended against ANYBODY who would attempt to alter them. But there is a lot more that we allow to divide us when we should not ... but should rather submit ourselves to God, not becoming quarrelsome over minor points.
 

micah719

an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
It has taken me some time, thought and deep prayer to find a way to respond to this expression of everything that makes Christianity so alien to me. I find it tragic that Christians are so easily provoked to bitter fury by the slightest mistakes of men and women who have been raised upon a pedestal which should be occupied by Jesus Christ alone. I find it unspeakably tragic that Christians seem so utterly dependent on someone human, be they Mr Jakes or anyone else, to do their thinking for them, that every word these people utter is scrutinized and judged with such bitter fury. We should, by all rights, be familiar enough with Scripture and confident enough in our individual relationship with Jesus Christ that we are first, able to identify the difference between a deliberate effort to mislead and exploit, and a simple misunderstanding or mistaken slip. Furthermore, we by all rights have a responsibility to have a strong enough devotional life that we have the confidence to build on the good things taught, determine what agrees with Scripture and work with that, and to accept that no human being is so perfectly right in all they say and do, that all we need do is hang on every word they say and let them work out our Salvation for us. Christians have a habit of defending their own mistakes while bitterly condemning the mistakes of those who have been placed on the pedestal. It is our responsibility to do our own thinking, to recognize the difference between a deliberate liar such as Todd Bentley or Bob Larson, and somebody like TD Jakes, who may well have gotten into trouble recently, but who in his lifetime has displayed great sincerity towards the Lord, and made very strong efforts to get more right than he did wrong.

So condemn me if you must for saying that. I have one retort: John 7:24

*Sigh*

Bitter fury? Please :ohno

Slightest mistakes? TD Jakes' behaviour goes beyond that level. Exploitation is a good word, thank you for bringing it up. That man lives the life of Reilly off his interpretations of The Word of God that make a mockery of The Lord Jesus Christ. You don't get filthy rich from huckstering Scripture by mistaken slips or misunderstandings, it takes conscious effort and a dead conscience.

Condemn? Your posts in various threads imply that you feel condemned when folks point out errors, and you bite hard and fast and low. If you'll read what I posted, please point out to me in what way I condemned you?

If your version of Christianity involves tacit agreement to anything that gets dragged in the door then we're not going to get along at all. If your discernment is based on your intellect you will be deceived. There are multitudes of false teachers nowadays, and exponentially more disciples of these people eager to defend their favourite ear-ticklers and by extension, themselves. The greatest commendation The Lord has for the end-times church is that it stayed faithful to His Word and defended it. Not revivals, not wondrous works of power, not popularity.
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
For the public record, the above misunderstanding was resolved via PM, forgiveness mutual and peace restored. Holy are the ways of the Lord, He blesses us with His instruction. Micah is an outstanding brother in Christ. :hug
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
I rejoice in our God who has worked in the hearts of two of His children, a dear brother and a dear sister, to enable them to resolve the point of contention between them. Glory to His name! \o/
 

micah719

an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
Amen and Amen! Praise The Lord for He is faithful and true and love covers a multitude of sins.

I am ashamed of the wicked spirit I showed in my previous posts, forgetting that my huge debt was freely canceled through sheergrace and mercy. Please forgive me for any reproach I have brought on The Lord's holy Name, the ugliness was unbecoming and not edifying and the fault is mine. There is a certain way to bring the dangers we face in this life to the attention of others, and I was amiss in my rudeness and aggression. This is not to condone or overlook the sins and wicked deceptions of the TD Jakes' of this world, or the dangers of the mystic practices being smuggled into The Body, just to amend my arrogance which is still being purged from me.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
Amen and Amen! Praise The Lord for He is faithful and true and love covers a multitude of sins.

I am ashamed of the wicked spirit I showed in my previous posts, forgetting that my huge debt was freely canceled through sheergrace and mercy. Please forgive me for any reproach I have brought on The Lord's holy Name, the ugliness was unbecoming and not edifying and the fault is mine. There is a certain way to bring the dangers we face in this life to the attention of others, and I was amiss in my rudeness and aggression. This is not to condone or overlook the sins and wicked deceptions of the TD Jakes' of this world, or the dangers of the mystic practices being smuggled into The Body, just to amend my arrogance which is still being purged from me.
:hug :hug WE are ALL growing, ALL having our flesh purged, bro. None of us is immune and none of us can ever look down our noses at another. May God be praised for the work He is doing in each one of us! \o/ \o/ \o/
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
Hey now, Micah, no need to beat yourself up. James and John, the Apostles were called "Sons Of Thunder" by Jesus Christ, He's seen it all before, and He's not worried. He puts up with me, and has for years, so I am confident that you couldn't possibly be worse! :nod I am convinced that Jesus Christ has special purposes for the really strong personalities, and I know for a fact He understands perfectly the way we operate, He respects that and guides us. David, for example, must have been extremely intense. You ever seen a lion or a bear up close? David couldn't have been but 12 or 13 when he stood up to the lion and the bear:

2 Samuel 17:33-35
34 But David said to Saul, "Your servant has been keeping his father's sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.

Even I'm not that mean! So be of strong heart (you are) and deep faith (that process is always deepening), and know you are loved and respected. Peace to you... :hug
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
Micah, I was sitting out back just now thinking about some of the things we "discussed" today... I can't tell you and everybody else how glad I am that we got our misunderstanding sorted out! All I could think was what I had just read in Mark 11:25 :rolleyes

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

:hug :hug

Anyway, I was thinking about what you were saying about "journaling". Thats got to be one of those things that maybe isn't for everybody, but still, used well there is some value in it. My first 4 years or so were really rough. I used to work nights, so I'd be up until very late, but I could sleep until I felt like getting up. Well, back when I was first a Christian, and so new at all this, in the last 30 minutes or so as I drifted out of deep sleep, my mind would be full of all sorts of ugly negative thoughts. I remember watching on of my favorite TV preachers, and he said we were supposed to have authority over our minds. I checked my Bible, and sure enough, we are, but I didn't. I cried and cried, because I couldn't make the ugly thoughts stop, I didn't know how. I'm not sure I "know how" even now, but my "journal" (the entries are often months apart), preserves a point where I noticed it had finally faded. My little notebook is a series of handwritten snapshots of how I learned to grow in a relationship with Jesus Christ, capturing moments, questions and answers, desperate doubts and exciting triumphs.

I don't know if journaling is for everyone, and I can understand how such a thing can become a monument to self-worship for someone whose egotistical. But when someone is struggling and growing, it can become a record of what its really like to work through doubts and struggles, and to discover that point where you suddenly realize that you're getting somewhere you weren't sure you could ever find when your struggles seemed overwhelming.

1 Thessalonians 5:21

Test everything. Hold on to the good.

I will be interested to hear what you discovered about the negative side of this issue. The more we can learn from the mistakes somebody else already made, the better off we are, although we will always invent ways to make our own custom mistakes...:nod trust me, I'm old enough to be sure of those 2! :nod
 

micah719

an adopted son of The Most High God John 6:37-40
From what I've seen of the practice so far, it's a method for trying to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit....but considering the implications, it is simply divination, which is strictly forbidden. Not because it doesn't work, but because it is evil. Note also that the folks that claim to receive messages from familiar spirits and ascended masters also frequently use that method. I'll do a thorough search for information about it, such as who are the people promoting it...but it is clear that nobody in the Bible given as an example of good conduct ever did anything like it, so it's more a matter of presenting overwhelming proof that it's something to be avoided. Ok, so the folks that wrote the individual books in The Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write, but that is no excuse for folks writing whatever messages come to them and claim it's the same. Consider the implications... :hide

Here's one good Scripture about the matter of guidance:
John 3:8
8 The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

And here is a classic...note that Timothy only had access to the Old Testament, so that's how important the first half of The Bible is, in contradiction to the "churches" that chuck out the OT and selectively use the NT:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
17 So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

What you're doing seems more like just keeping a diary or a prayer list. When I look back at the relatively short time since The Lord snatched me back from perdition, perhaps it's better I don't keep a diary..it's been eventful and there's some parts I'd rather forget but somehow keep getting brought to my attention.
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
From what I've seen of the practice so far, it's a method for trying to discern the voice of the Holy Spirit....but considering the implications, it is simply divination, which is strictly forbidden. Not because it doesn't work, but because it is evil. Note also that the folks that claim to receive messages from familiar spirits and ascended masters also frequently use that method. I'll do a thorough search for information about it, such as who are the people promoting it...but it is clear that nobody in the Bible given as an example of good conduct ever did anything like it, so it's more a matter of presenting overwhelming proof that it's something to be avoided. Ok, so the folks that wrote the individual books in The Bible were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write, but that is no excuse for folks writing whatever messages come to them and claim it's the same. Consider the implications... :hide

Here's one good Scripture about the matter of guidance:
John 3:8
8 The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

And here is a classic...note that Timothy only had access to the Old Testament, so that's how important the first half of The Bible is, in contradiction to the "churches" that chuck out the OT and selectively use the NT:
2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
17 So that the man of God may be complete and proficient, well fitted and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My goodness, Stefan, no wonder you denounced journaling!!! You are right, oh yea, you are really right! Trying to do something like that as a method of "hearing from" the Holy Spirit is a very bad mistake, probably worse than contemplative prayer. I had never heard of that one before.

What you're doing seems more like just keeping a diary or a prayer list. When I look back at the relatively short time since The Lord snatched me back from perdition, perhaps it's better I don't keep a diary..it's been eventful and there's some parts I'd rather forget but somehow keep getting brought to my attention.

I have found that just because something gets brought to your attention doesn't mean the reason is obvious. For this reason, if you don't see any value in keeping a journal of your own, don't do it. I find it of great value that the opportunity arose for you to post what you know, particularly in a thread that addresses the Gifts Of The Holy Spirit! Wow! Praise the Holy Lord for bringing this matter to light!

:meet: Stefan and :hat: It is so important that these warnings and clarifications get posted online in a responsible forum!
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
I am bumbing this thread on purpose, because I just got a copy of Mikhen's book today. At first glance, I saw that he wrote what he wrote because of the exact same 2009 Barna poll that galvanized me to write an essay series titled What Then Are These Gifts. I have studied the Bible by myself and for myself, and reached much the same conclusions Mike does. For this reason, I am checking with Mike and asking him if he thinks I should post the original What Then Are These Gifts essay series, which I have backed up on my computer (it originally was written over a two week period in April and I think early May 2009). In any case, Mike's book is very important, and it should be taken very seriously, because at the time I wrote what I did, Mike and I had never heard of each other.

In Christ, Meg
 

myinnuendo999

Well-Known Member
Thank you for compiling this, Meg.

Since nearly everyone possesses these traits (not gifts) to a certain extent, how are we to know what our Gift is?

When I was saved, many of us participated in water baptism, and then we were encouraged to practice speaking in tongues. I wasn't able to, and still can't speak in tongues. But now I'm curious why we weren't encouraged to practice any of the other Gifts.

I have prayed on learning what my Gift is, as this would give glory to our Lord, but as yet, I do not know what it is. Are there others who don't know their Gift?

What do you find the most JOY in pleasing the Lord with?

I've had a few Gifts the Lord blessed me with. One Gift God blessed me with was when I became aware of the need of discerning the spirits when I was saved

Another that brings me great joy is giving

Pray to the Lord to show you and when you are aware of pleasing God the most be aware of what you're motivated with and maybe then I believe you can know what Gift God has given you. Every single believer has at least ONE Gift God the Holy Spirit has given them---
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
I am reposting part of the original essay series, simply because I know for a fact that I was writing in the Holy Spirit when I addressed these issues. This was written in spring 2009, I wrote it as part of the What Then Are These Gifts essay series:

So where do these wonderful Gifts come from, and how do we find them? The first clue is the difference between a “gift” and a “present”. A present is something you get on your birthday; in practical terms, your presents from God would be your health, your spouse, your career, your attractive looks, you know, the sort of day-to-day nice things you take for granted that make your life nice in the first place. Those sort of things apply pretty much to you personally, but they aren’t going to help someone else.

Now your gifts. These are the treasures Jesus Christ placed in those jars of clay. You look for the clues for these in your personality, and they’re not necessarily obvious, so this might take a little detective work. What are you good at? If you’re good at organizing people, you’re probably gifted in administration. If you’re good with kids, you could be good in serving. Showing mercy is considered a gift. Isn’t that interesting! A simple thing like giving a hand to a lady in the parking lot can be a gift from Heaven honored by God! It really can be that easy!

Now what about the more supernatural sorts of gifts? The first question would be “What makes you so sure they’re supernatural in the first place?” While I was reviewing my notes for this discussion, something caught my eye; here. take a look:

1 Corinthians 12:8-11
8 To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

It seems at least possible to me that not all of these Gifts are supernatural. Just because Jesus could walk on water doesn’t mean He never used a boat. Could knowledge, for example, used in the service of the Lord be a gift? If your doctor is a Christian, and I hope he is, he would be using knowledge (learned in medical school), a gift for healing (that is too a gift, my Dad was a doctor), faith, and with experience wisdom (you ever get to see an old doctor? They’re usually pretty wise too). Most doctors develop faith too, especially surgeons. A surgeon with 6 kids develops faith almost by default! Now that whole matching list of Gifts Of The Holy Spirit come from hard work, experience and genuine need. They come slowly and surely, getting stronger the more they’re used, benefiting people in need who after its all said and done praise God for the doctor who healed them.

In prayer this morning, I felt very strongly that I need to add this to this discussion. The first time I heard the phrase “You are not an accident.” , I found it kinda hard to believe... I have been a Christian since Sept. 2003, it is now late April 2009, and that little tidbit of information finally sounds completely true about me, for the first time ever in my life. It took Jesus that long to get that through my head. It was that hard to accept. The Holy Spirit told me just a few minutes ago that the parents who raised me couldn’t have given birth to the person I am, but the parents who (casually) caused my birth couldn’t have raised the person I am! Hurray for me, now what about you? If you got the perfect life, skip this part, this is for someone who didn’t. This is for those who think they have no gifts who think they’re a big waste of time! satan works hard to smother your gifts, OK. He hates you. satan wants nothing more than to see you fail, don’t you dare let him!!!

Jesus Christ knows exactly what your gifts are because He put them there on purpose! He had a reason to put you right where you are, and He alone can tell you why. So stop blowing yourself off as useless, and start giving yourself credit for being someone who has a very specific, very important mission in this time and place. Ask in prayer, “Jesus, who do You think I am?” I am certain you will be absolutely stunned at the answer! I think you are worth more than you ever guessed, and that the only way you will ever be able to see that is when Jesus shows you. So stop trying to be all supernatural and start trying to be real, confident, carefully searching yourself for the contribution Jesus Christ needs you to make in the Holy Process of putting satan, demons, evil and suffering under the Footstool Of God Himself, where those things will be utterly defeated FOREVER AND EVER AMEN!!!

No single denomination seems to have managed to successfully institutionalize the Holy Spirit, likely "So that no man might boast". I just love what TD Jakes said, "God gave everybody something, but He didn't give anybody everything".

I think we are living at the end of this age of sin and despair, and frankly, I will rejoice with all my heart when the last child is born who must die in their sin. Frankly, I think what matters most is to set aside what doesn't matter, and try very hard to focus on what does, and what does matter is that we find a way to overcome the terrible darkness that is gathering on the horizon, seeking like the twisted mass murderer he is, to take into death with him, everyone he can.

Now that being said, here's another important tidbit, and I apologize in advance if this sounds confusing. My dear Christian mentor, Jonathan, is a Baptist. He has never spoken in tongues and likely never will; he's just not the type. But he is the type to closet himself in prayer after his first 4 years of Christianity and ask God for help because he couldn't seem to stop sinning. That was probably the most important testimony I have ever heard. Jonathan said that no one denomination has all the truth; I asked him precisely because my Mother was Catholic, and she passed in 1988. Its about Jesus; the rest of us, from Mary to Benedict XVI, from the arthritic woman typing these words to Billy Graham are only servants. Even John The Baptist was human. So may we seek Jesus Christ in the best way we can, with honest hearts and full cooperation in this war, seeking to see Him win, because only Jesus Christ can be trusted with the victory.

I just found this too:

"The way many churches respond to declining public interest exacerbates the problem. The Christian church grew when its leaders stressed biblical study and fervent prayer, each of which was considered, in the early church, a means of knowing God. The modern feel-good church, meanwhile, de-emphasizes both in favor of "messages" that are "relevant to my life." (Don't tell me what Job said about the imponderable glory of God, tell me how to have fulfilling personal relationships.) That kind of offering can only be as stimulating as its deliverer, which explains why telegenic showmen find their congregations swelling, and so many other churches are shrinking. Eliminate the theologies of Word and prayer, and all you have left is a competition to see who can provide the best circus."

I tried to follow the link given for the original article, but got The Sydney (Australia) Morning Herald newspaper front page. When I find the original piece, I'll post an accurate link.

The Lord has just blown this door open. I felt the Holy Spirit in a strength this morning like I rarely feel Him. The following is copied from a post I wrote in another forum, which applies here too:

I've had the privilege of knowing a genuine Right Wing Republican Southern Baptist lady for 3 years. She was raised in church, is happily married to the same husband of her youth; she has an honestly beautiful root faith. Yet she listens to Rush Limbaugh all the time, daily, and her opinions of good and evil are much more likely to be derived from politics than they are from Scripture. She knows her favorite Bible verses by heart, yet there are large parts of the Bible she doesn't know. In some ways, she's a beautiful Christian, but the pressures of her career seem to drive her to make choices and take stands that make some people, especially people who have never really tried to live by Scripture doubt the sincerity of her faith. I have had the privilege of talking to her about Christianity and Jesus Christ, very openly, not something most people get with someone like her. Something I've noticed is that she's been so sheltered all her life, that there really are some things she simply doesn't understand, some harsh things, some ugly things, she simply has no experience in. In the course of being friends with her, I have no doubt that there are things in her life I couldn't understand myself. Decisions I never had to make. A way of choosing when to give, when not to and why. Knowing her has cured me of trying to figure out who has the best faith, I don't envy Jesus that job!

Here's another Christian who has touched my life, the man who helped me get saved. He too, is a Southern Baptist, much more open minded than my lady friend, but still very conservative on his politics. Four years after becoming a Christian, he told me, he was still finding it impossible to resist sin. (I respected him way too much to pry for details). He was in college at the time, and he said one day he got alone in a study room and asked God why he was having so much trouble, he thought he should have been doing better by then. I forget exactly how he worded it, but he said "Something" came over him, and from that day on, things worked out much better. What’s interesting is that he doesn't Speak In Tongues, never has, probably never will! But I'm certain he's filled with The Holy Spirit, and so is he.

I think it was Beth Moore, in one of her books who said something like "Most of us never knew when we were filled with The Holy Spirit". Has the Charismatic Church put so much emphasis on the shock and awe of Speaking In Tongues and other supernatural expressions of the Holy Spirit that the seeming light they've been shining has become more of us and less of Him? I've begun to tangle that issue out in my discussion "What Then Are These Gifts". I think too much "supernatural" and not enough "natural" is too intimidating for most people to handle. Which brings us to satan. Everything I have spoken of online is true. That is why I don't talk about it much. Because humans have a perfectly well functioning, and very likely God-given fear of anything that is overtly supernaturally evil, if most people actually pick up on the real thing, it scares them clean through. That’s another reason I don't talk about it much. That's also an important reason most people underestimate the stuff too.

Spiritual discernment isn't a casual Gift, its a heavy responsibility. satan just loves to be underestimated too; gives him an advantage, a big advantage.

In Christ, Meg
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
In postscript to things mentioned in my essay and elsewhere in this thread I have this to say:

Maybe I listened to some people, read some books and kept a prayer journal, things for which I have been attacked. I have heard it once, and have no need to hear it again. I will neither back down nor apologize, because I suffered more than anyone except my dearly beloved fiancée Robert knows even the slightest bit about. I suffered hard, and clung to Jesus Christ the best way I could figure out how in those terrible early years. I tried to find mature Christians to help me figure out what I was supposed to be doing, and all I got was cold shoulders and one very dedicated prayer life. So, should someone have an unflattering opinion of how I got through those very dark nights, know up front I don't answer to you, I answer to Jesus Christ, my Savior and my Judge.

I apologize to those who are not guilty there. But after whats already been expressed in this thread, I felt I had to say something.
 

arapahoepark

Well-Known Member
That's good Meg!
(I do not want to start trouble here)
Yeah I have had trouble with the Charismatics/ and all that they believe, a few years ago I was thinking of moving to Pheonix to attend a small college usually meeting in churches and was affiliated with Assemblies of God...but a lot of their doctrine rubbed me the wrong way, including tongues, which I know I do not have, and not everyone will have. My dad was raised in that group and turned away from their teachings, and he said people just get up and random yell gibberish.
I go back and forth with Cessationism (but for the most part would say I am one), because to me, those groups (pentecostal) misuse tongues according to what is put forth in 1 Corinthians 12-14...
so that's my take on it.
 

Meg

Well-Known Member
That's good Meg!
(I do not want to start trouble here)
Yeah I have had trouble with the Charismatics/ and all that they believe, a few years ago I was thinking of moving to Pheonix to attend a small college usually meeting in churches and was affiliated with Assemblies of God...but a lot of their doctrine rubbed me the wrong way, including tongues, which I know I do not have, and not everyone will have. My dad was raised in that group and turned away from their teachings, and he said people just get up and random yell gibberish.
I go back and forth with Cessationism (but for the most part would say I am one), because to me, those groups (pentecostal) misuse tongues according to what is put forth in 1 Corinthians 12-14...
so that's my take on it.

I'm not sure I have a clear answer right about now, Arapahoe, except that the charismatic church got severely messed up by overestimating their own self-perceived spirituality and "importance". I am about to post more of the '09 essay. I hope it helps...
 
Last edited:

Meg

Well-Known Member
There is a lot of ground to cover with this material, so I apologies in advance for the way its going to wander around. If I were writing a book (books are for selling, and I will not sell what God has given me so freely), these posts would be drafts for chapters. As it is, these posts are a sincere effort to pass along what I have been given, because the most important thing I can ever do is to help anyone who might sincerely wish to understand Who God really is to share in the answers I have found so far.

So let us return to that precious point where the natural meets the supernatural.

Genesis 2:7
7 the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
We are made, then, of two elements then, "dust of the ground" (natural) and The Breath Of Life (Spirit or Soul), and very nearly everyone, even atheists admit this. This can only mean that part of us must return to the Earth from which it came, but part of us must also return to God, Who cannot die.

This being the case, part of us is going to work in a very natural way, which we easily take for granted, since that’s the obvious part. The natural part is so overwhelmingly obvious that if we didn't have scientists to tell us this, we would never guess that the air we breathe weighs (that turned out to be a stupid question but...) the answer -- more or less is 14.7 pounds per square inch, according to Wikipedia. In other words, a lot heavier than it looks or feels. For all that, air is so natural we usually don't notice it.

For me, writing is natural. Words are natural. Thoughts are, for me, rather like toys (Irish people are known for this in certain circles...). Its what I'm doing with my words that can become Spiritual, and that brings us to a point that only God really understands well. When His Breath crosses my mind, crosses my tongue (in a way, writing or typing is a form of speech), then the Gift of Message Of Knowledge starts to flow. It starts with what I have learned over the years. First I had to learn to talk. Then I had to learn to write my name. Then I had to learn to read, to spell, to use words correctly so when I say something its clear to the listener what I said, then I had to put all this together over a period of several decades since it takes a lot of practice to get good at this sort of thing. Then there was still something missing. I could, and for most of my life, did, do all those natural things, quite naturally, to please myself. I sometimes did those things, quite naturally, to please my friends. But I wasn't doing any of those things to please God. It simply never would have occurred to me that God might need my help for anything! After all, He's bigger...

Scripture tells me I am a child of God. So what happens when you're trying to do something and there's a child around? Usually, children are curious. They want to help. Good parents want to let their kids help, and God is a good Parent -- that's His job. Parent. Father. Abba. Daddy. "What are You doing Daddy? Can I help?"

Charisma. "Yes, you can help, here, take This. This is right for you, you're good at it. Its big, its a little heavy too, here, let Me help, we'll do it together." Kid is now as happy as a kid can get! "Look at me, I'm helping Daddy!!!" That usually wears off around age 12 doesn't it -- or does it? I think that depends on the quality of the relationship. I think that depends heavily on what you think of Daddy, and on what Daddy thinks of you. God loves you... How many times have you heard that? So many times it doesn't mean much any more? How did that happen???

What is the difference between entitlement and respect ? How long is the distance between "Give it here" and "I will work for what I want"? How far is the distance between desire and responsibility? The answer to those questions will be the measure of how much you love God and how much you want from God. The measuring line of that distance will be determined in your willingness to agree with God by repenting of your sins and agreeing that God’s opinions about life, love and destiny matter. That will be the exact distance between Heaven and hell, between life and death, between being effective or being useless, between the natural and the supernatural.

When I take my natural gifts and place them in the service of God alone, they turn from lead into gold, from skill to Charisma, from natural to Supernatural, from me to Him to us together in Jesus Christ amen

I think its important to note that I was very strongly affected by the Holy Spirit for three days there. It started on Saturday morning, when I woke up just before dawn. Again, all day Sunday, and on Monday too. Today is Tuesday, and the strong, overt sense of God's presence has faded considerably. Does that mean He's gone, disappointed or something. No, it does not. I have been thinking over the latest challenging question posted on the Charisma main forum, and resting, because I am still quite ill. I was up a couple of hours ago, and reached for something to read. My hand reached for the Max Lucado book I had almost finished, but the Holy Spirit corrected my aim, and I picked up Anne Graham Lotz instead. When I picked up where I had left off, the very next topic Mrs. Lotz addressed applied very directly to the very subject I needed to work more on before I could say anything.

It made me wonder, not for the first time, if some people really do have a Prophetic experience with God, but when God has finished speaking, do they feel a need for more material to fuel the fame they gained from the genuine experience. There must be reasons, good ones, why genuinely anointed people turn into something else. Sure, insincerity and fakery exist out there, but it keeps haunting me, that behind some, but far from all, of these high profile failures, there are pressures that drove some good people down. There's usually more to a story than meets the eye. That is the kind of thing that makes "What Then Are These Gifts" such an important question...

In Christ, Meg
 

Carl

Well-Known Member
Thanks Meg, for your response. Your opinion certainly makes sense, as it seems we all possess most of these traits, though not the degree that they could called a Gift. I'm praying for God's enlightenment of what He desires for me, and how I can best serve Him in this matter.

What have you tried to do so far? Do you like being with lots of people or one or two at a time? What are you good at even in this world? Some times to reach people in the world we have to be able to work with them and help them and understand their worldly problems before we can reach them with Christ. I mean any ability we have is a gift from God!
 
Back
Top