Matthew 24, Luke 13 and Defining the "Elect"

Sean1916

Member
Hello. I wish escatological questions were as easy as - like - say "Who was Noah's wife?" Well duh, that's an easy one - Joan of Ark. Unfortunately it seems the more I study Scripture the more questions I have. So this series of questions come from a study I am doing on the matter. (Note to moderators / staff: If this has been hashed to death already here, please feel free to move, delete this thread as needed. Time hasn't allowed me to do a big search here to find out.) Questions are: 1. In Mt 24 and Lk 13 there is a dialog between Christ and his disciples concerning future events. Are these events already fulfilled (ad 70) or are they referring to ad 70 and something yet future to us now. If so, is this future the rapture or specifically the second coming? 2. The elect in the NT comes from the Gr. "eklektos" and is translated both as "elect" and "chosen". To whom does "eklektos" refer? Jews? Believers? Both?
Such questions seem to be a crux in the timing of the rapture. Thanks ahead of time.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
In Matthew 24, Jesus is answering two specific questions: "When will these things happen?" and "What will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3) Therefore, the answer applies NOT to 70 AD, for Christ did not come again at that time. Not has there been great tribulation unlike anything has ever been in the entire history of the world. (Matthew 24:21) Nor have we seen such a time as would result in every single life on earth being snuffed out unless the days had been cut short. (Matthew 24:22) Those who point to Matthew 24 as referring to 70 A.D. are therefore wrong. Further, a study of scripture tells us that the millennial reign commences upon Christ's return. If He had returned, where is that reign of peace and universal justice, when all shall accept Him and the lion shall lay down with the lamb and the child play on the viper's nest. But of course He has not returned because when He does, every eye will see Him. So the entire belief that Matthew 24 was fulfilled in and following 70 AD is utter foolishness.

As to the term elect (ἐκλεκτός)— it refers to those who are Christ's. It literally means the "called out ones." All who are Christ;'s have been called to Him out of this world. We know that, because NO man comes to Christ except He is drawn by God. (John 6:44, 65) Eklektos is used 23 times in the New Testament and always in that sense. And all those who are eklektos are also called hagios— saints. (Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; etc)

I pray this helps.
 

acceptedinthebeloved

Well-Known Member
Hi Sean1916,

As to Part b of your question #1, the Olivet Discourse is not referring to the rapture of the Church... the context is His Second Coming to the earth... so in answer to your question #2, "the elect" (here in this context) are not the saints which are "the Church which is His body," but those who come to faith after the Church has been caught up. (There will be "saints" during that time period, who come to faith.)

Matt 24:29-31's "great sound of a trumpet" correlates with Isa 27:12-13's "and ye shall be gathered together one by one, O ye children of Israel. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount at Jerusalem." (see also Isa 11:11-12, though no trumpet is mentioned there). These are the only two references to a great trumpet, in scripture. They are gathered together to Jerusalem (not to meet the Lord in the air, as is true for "the Church which is His body").

It is my understanding that Matt 24:29-31 may be referring to the elect of Israel only, whereas Matt 25:31-34 and following, the sheep and goat judgment of the nations, is referring to "who of the nations" will be told, "come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (we see it is the "sheep" who have aided "the least of these My brethren" [who I believe are the remnant of Israel (who are not the subject of this judgment)] during the tribulation years of great trouble. The ones who have "blessed Israel" shall indeed be "blessed").
So Gentiles, at that time, will also enter the Millennial Kingdom.
 

acceptedinthebeloved

Well-Known Member
Also, I like how Jack Kelley has expressed it, in this excerpt from his article (posted by Steve53 elsewhere)... this portion is pertinent to your question:


"The Elect
Also, there’s no mention of the Church being “the elect” in the gospels. In the only times the Lord mentioned the Church at all (Matt. 16:18 and Matt. 18:17) He did not use any form of the Greek word for “elect”. The first clear description of the Church as the elect did not happen until Romans 8:33 which Paul wrote 20 years after the resurrection. On the other hand, Jesus was called God’s elect in Isaiah 42:1, Israel was called God’s elect in Isaiah 45:4, 65:9, 65:22, and angels were called His elect in 1 Tim. 5:21.

"In my opinion, to think that the disciples would have understood the Lord to be referring to the Church in Matt. 24:22, 24, 31 is an unwarranted assumption."
--Jack Kelley

source: https://gracethrufaith.com/end-times-prophecy/rapture-which-rapture/ [scroll down about 1/3 of the page, for this quoted portion]


Something to consider when reading these portions of Scripture.
 

Sean1916

Member
I seriously appreciate the comments. Mostly I like the backup scripture. Thanks for the posts so far. There are so many view points that it gets confusing.
 

Sean1916

Member
"Paddles" "Clear" <electrical jolt> "Paddles" "Clear" <electrical jolt>
"Doctor, we have a heartbeat"
Bringing this thread back in hopes that doing so will not make it a Frankenstein. (And I hope my questions do not come across as challenging, disruptive or argumentative.) I just want to find clarity.

Okay. Got to reading Mt 24 and Lk 13 further with the supposition that it refers to the Second Coming and not the Rapture.

Then I get t-boned again with several verses. The most hitting being Mt 24:36 which says "but of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

I had always assumed this referred to the Rapture but in the context of the Second Coming, it seems even more a quandary. If the SC is 7 yrs following the Rapture, then how can we not know as well as the angels and at the very least Christ? If the Rapture comes as a thief and we are snatched away, this verse could apply but in light of the SC of Christ, it really is hard to reconcile.

Has this question been addressed before? Am I looking at it askew? Does anyone have insight to point me right on this? Thanks ahead of time.
 

mattfivefour

Well-Known Member
A couple of things, Sean.

  • First, remember prophecy often telescopes separate events into one prophecy. There are plenty of examples of this in prophecies that have already been fulfilled. So when Jesus prophesied it is not surprising that the Rapture and His return as King are telescoped. So there may be different statements that apply to different parts of the prophecies that Christ gave in Matthew 24.
  • Secondly, beyond that, let us look at the entire passage:
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.​
Ask yourself this question, brother— With Noah preaching the coming flood for up to 120 years prior to it coming, how does God say that the people "knew not until the flood came?" I believe the answer to that will give you a clue as to how people in the day to come will not be expecting it ... except those few who have turned to God through faith in Christ.​
  • Thirdly, if one wishes to be strictly grammatical in parsing the meaning of the words of Jesus, note that He did not say "Nobody WILL know the day or the hour." He said, "Nobody KNOWS the day or the hour." He was clearly referring to the time at which he was speaking. When He spoke those words, nobody did—or could have—known the day or the hour. You see, until the Holy Spirit revealed it through Paul, nobody knew of a Rapture preceding the Great Coming Day of the Lord.
I personally think we find the answer when combining all three of those views above.
 

Hol

Worships Him
Thank you Pastor Adrian! As much confusion & violence as there is in today's world it is easy to imagine that folks will be blind in deceit, caught unaware of the 7-yr timing to end the age of the Gentiles.
 
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