40 Questions for and against gay Christian beliefs

paidinfull

Well-Known Member
Kevin DeYoung posted 40 questions for churches who are accepting that practicing gay Christians are okay with God. Then the response came with 40 questions for Christians who don't believe a gay lifestyle is every bit as acceptable to God as heterosexuals. Ready to answer the questions gays raise?

40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags

If you consider yourself a Bible-believing Christian, a follower of Jesus whose chief aim is to glorify God and enjoy him forever, there are important questions I hope you will consider before picking up your flag and cheering on the sexual revolution. These questions aren’t meant to be snarky or merely rhetorical. They are sincere, if pointed, questions that I hope will cause my brothers and sisters with the new rainbow themed avatars to slow down and think about the flag you’re flying.

1. How long have you believed that gay marriage is something to be celebrated?
2. What Bible verses led you to change your mind?
3. How would you make a positive case from Scripture that sexual activity between two persons of the same sex is a blessing to be celebrated?
4. What verses would you use to show that a marriage between two persons of the same sex can adequately depict Christ and the church?
5. Do you think Jesus would have been okay with homosexual behavior between consenting adults in a committed relationship?
6. If so, why did he reassert the Genesis definition of marriage as being one man and one woman?
7. When Jesus spoke against porneia what sins do you think he was forbidding?
8. If some homosexual behavior is acceptable, how do you understand the sinful “exchange” Paul highlights in Romans 1?
9. Do you believe that passages like 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Revelation 21:8 teach that sexual immorality can keep you out of heaven?
10. What sexual sins do you think they were referring to?
11. As you think about the long history of the church and the near universal disapproval of same-sex sexual activity, what do you think you understand about the Bible that Augustine, Aquinas, Calvin, and Luther failed to grasp?
12. What arguments would you use to explain to Christians in Africa, Asia, and South America that their understanding of homosexuality is biblically incorrect and your new understanding of homosexuality is not culturally conditioned?
13. Do you think Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama were motivated by personal animus and bigotry when they, for almost all of their lives, defined marriage as a covenant relationship between one man and one woman?
14. Do you think children do best with a mother and a father?
15. If not, what research would you point to in support of that conclusion?
16. If yes, does the church or the state have any role to play in promoting or privileging the arrangement that puts children with a mom and a dad?
17. Does the end and purpose of marriage point to something more than an adult’s emotional and sexual fulfillment?
18. How would you define marriage?
19. Do you think close family members should be allowed to get married?
20. Should marriage be limited to only two people?
21. On what basis, if any, would you prevent consenting adults of any relation and of any number from getting married?
22. Should there be an age requirement in this country for obtaining a marriage license?
23. Does equality entail that anyone wanting to be married should be able to have any meaningful relationship defined as marriage?
24. If not, why not?
25. Should your brothers and sisters in Christ who disagree with homosexual practice be allowed to exercise their religious beliefs without fear of punishment, retribution, or coercion?
26. Will you speak up for your fellow Christians when their jobs, their accreditation, their reputation, and their freedoms are threatened because of this issue?
27. Will you speak out against shaming and bullying of all kinds, whether against gays and lesbians or against Evangelicals and Catholics?
28. Since the evangelical church has often failed to take unbiblical divorces and other sexual sins seriously, what steps will you take to ensure that gay marriages are healthy and accord with Scriptural principles?
29. Should gay couples in open relationships be subject to church discipline?
30. Is it a sin for LGBT persons to engage in sexual activity outside of marriage?
31. What will open and affirming churches do to speak prophetically against divorce, fornication, pornography, and adultery wherever they are found?
32. If “love wins,” how would you define love?
33. What verses would you use to establish that definition?
34. How should obedience to God’s commands shape our understanding of love?
35. Do you believe it is possible to love someone and disagree with important decisions they make?
36. If supporting gay marriage is a change for you, has anything else changed in your understanding of faith?
37. As an evangelical, how has your support for gay marriage helped you become more passionate about traditional evangelical distinctives like a focus on being born again, the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ on the cross, the total trustworthiness of the Bible, and the urgent need to evangelize the lost?
38. What open and affirming churches would you point to where people are being converted to orthodox Christianity, sinners are being warned of judgment and called to repentance, and missionaries are being sent out to plant churches among unreached peoples?
39. Do you hope to be more committed to the church, more committed to Christ, and more committed to the Scriptures in the years ahead?
40. When Paul at the end of Romans 1 rebukes “those who practice such things” and those who “give approval to those who practice them,” what sins do you think he has in mind?

Food for thought, I hope. At the very least, something to chew on before swallowing everything the world and Facebook put on our plate.

Note: An earlier version of this post had the questions in paragraph format rather than enumerated. The content is still the same. Readers interested in studying what the Bible teaches about homosexuality may be interested in checking out my new book on that theme.

40 questions for Christians who oppose marriage equality

Kevin DeYoung wrote a widely-shared article at The Gospel Coalition this week called “40 Questions for Christians Now Waving Rainbow Flags.” Given that I’ve already answered many of his questions in my book, God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships, I decided instead to pose 40 questions of my own to Christians who oppose marriage equality.


Show caption

Founder and President of The Reformation Project Matthew Vines, in Washington, DC on November 25, 2014. Photo by Stephen Voss.

Too often, LGBT-affirming Christians are the only ones asked to explain and defend their views. But there are many pressing questions that non-affirming Christians frequently do not address. Here are some of them:

  1. Do you accept that sexual orientation is not a choice?
  2. Do you accept that sexual orientation is highly resistant to attempts to change it?
  3. How many meaningful relationships with lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) people do you have?
  4. How many openly LGBT people would say you are one of their closest friends?
  5. How much time have you spent in one-on-one conversation with LGBT Christians about their faith and sexuality?
  6. Do you accept that heterosexual marriage is not a realistic option for most gay people?
  7. Do you accept that lifelong celibacy is the only valid option for most gay people if all same-sex relationships are sinful?
  8. How many gay brothers and sisters in Christ have you walked with on the path of mandatory celibacy, and for how long?
  9. What is your answer for gay Christians who struggled for years to live out a celibacy mandate but were driven to suicidal despair in the process?
  10. Has mandatory celibacy produced good fruit in the lives of most gay Christians you know?
  11. How many married same-sex couples do you know?
  12. Do you believe that same-sex couples’ relationships can show the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?
  13. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support same-sex marriage in the church?
  14. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support slavery?
  15. If not, do you believe that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards were not actually Christians because they supported slavery?
  16. Do you think supporting same-sex marriage is a more serious problem than supporting slavery?
  17. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s passages about slavery before you felt comfortable believing that slavery is wrong?
  18. Does it cause you any concern that Christians throughout most of church history would have disagreed with you?
  19. Did you know that, for most of church history, Christians believed that the Bible taught the earth stood still at the center of the universe?
  20. Does it cause you any concern that you disagree with their interpretation of the Bible?
  21. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s verses on the topic before you felt comfortable believing that the earth revolves around the sun?
  22. Do you know of any Christian writers before the 20th century who acknowledged that gay people must be celibate for life due to the church’s rejection of same-sex relationships?
  23. If not, might it be fair to say that mandating celibacy for gay Christians is not a traditional position?
  24. Do you believe that the Bible explicitly teaches that all gay Christians must be single and celibate for life?
  25. If not, do you feel comfortable affirming something that is not explicitly affirmed in the Bible?
  26. Do you believe that the moral distinction between lust and love matters for LGBT people’s romantic relationships?
  27. Do you think that loving same-sex relationships should be assessed in the same way as the same-sex behavior Paul explicitly describes as lustful in Romans 1?
  28. Do you believe that Paul’s use of the terms “shameful” and “unnatural” in Romans 1:26-27 means that all same-sex relationships are sinful?
  29. Would you say the same about Paul’s description of long hair in men as “shameful” and against “nature” in 1 Corinthians 11:14, or would you say he was describing cultural norms of his time?
  30. Do you believe that the capacity for procreation is essential to marriage?
  31. If so, what does that mean for infertile heterosexual couples?
  32. How much time have you spent engaging with the writings of LGBT-affirming Christians like Justin Lee, James Brownson, and Rachel Murr?
  33. What relationship recognition rights short of marriage do you support for same-sex couples?
  34. What are you doing to advocate for those rights?
  35. Do you know who Tyler Clementi, Leelah Alcorn, and Blake Brockington are, and did your church offer any kind of prayer for them when their deaths made national news?
  36. Do you know that LGBT youth whose families reject them are 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide than LGBT youth whose families support them?
  37. Have you vocally objected when church leaders and other Christians have compared same-sex relationships to things like bestiality, incest, and pedophilia?
  38. How certain are you that God’s will for all gay Christians is lifelong celibacy?
  39. What do you think the result would be if we told all straight teenagers in the church that if they ever dated someone they liked, held someone’s hand, kissed someone, or got married, they would be rebelling against God?
  40. Are you willing to be in fellowship with Christians who disagree with you on this topic?
Matthew Vines is Founder and President of The Reformation Project. He is author of , God and the Gay Christian: The Biblical Case in Support of Same-Sex Relationships. His work has been featured recently in the New York Times and Time.

http://tobingrant.religionnews.com/...ho-oppose-marriage-equality-guest-commentary/



 

Lily

Looking Up
I agree, Mr. Vines is twisting about. Come on, really, is the average person required to sit down and talk about sex with people? I don't do this in a normal day with heterosexual friends and family.

His whole premise with the questions is out of whack.

Sometimes I wish so much to go back to when times were normal. I hate that certain subjects are forced upon us these days. It really wearies the brain and the soul. Energy that could be spent on something else.
 
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Micki

MARANATHA!!
My answers:

1. Do you accept that sexual orientation is not a choice?
Sin is always a choice

2. Do you accept that sexual orientation is highly resistant to attempts to change it?
Yes, sin is terribly hard to overcome unless we allow the power of God, His Holy Spirit to work through us and recreate us as He meant for us to be. Just as a potter works with clay to mold and perfect it, we must allow our Creator to mold and guide us, to His glory and for our own welfare.

3. How many meaningful relationships with lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) people do you have?
None. I have relatives who fit in some of these categories, but physical distance keeps us from being close. At the same time I also have relatives who engage in adultery and fornication who also are not in close physical proximity. I don't shun any of them.

4. How many openly LGBT people would say you are one of their closest friends?
None, light is not supposed to dwell with darkness. A true friend is someone who will exhort you and bring you closer to The Lord.

5. How much time have you spent in one-on-one conversation with LGBT Christians about their faith and sexuality?
This is not an opportunity I have ever had.

6. Do you accept that heterosexual marriage is not a realistic option for most gay people?
Yes, as long as they engage in sin they will not be able to enjoy the blessing of a Biblical marriage. In the same way a drug addict can never enjoy the beauty of nature, they are always thinking about their next 'fix'. Most alcoholics will not stop and smell the flowers, alcohol dulls the senses including perception.

7. Do you accept that lifelong celibacy is the only valid option for most gay people if all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Possibly. I know of no one who ever died from being celibate, but many who died from std's. It is not the end of life. I have heard the testimonies of former homosexuals who gave their lives to Jesus, were released from the demon of homosexuality and went on to marry according to the law of God, and were and are very happy in their marriages, and extremely thankful to The Lord for the same.

8. How many gay brothers and sisters in Christ have you walked with on the path of mandatory celibacy, and for how long?
I've not had this opportunity.

9. What is your answer for gay Christians who struggled for years to live out a celibacy mandate but were driven to suicidal despair in the process?
I'm sorry to say this but once anyone has committed suicide they can no longer hear what any man has to say. To the living I would note that all of us have something we struggle with in life, few are exempt. To a Christian I would remind them that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and if given the chance, I would be someone willing to listen to them and encourage them in the things which are righteous, kind of like Paul who encouraged the churches to do righteous things.

10. Has mandatory celibacy produced good fruit in the lives of most gay Christians you know?
I'm not exposed on a personal level to gay Christians. I will note celibacy is the only alternative for someone who is not engaged in the Biblical concept of marriage. These people are not exposed to empty, physical relationships, std's, they don't have to worry about getting someone pregnant or becoming pregnant and they are not putting sin and physical desire above their walk with Jesus, so I can see no way celibacy outside of Biblical marriage is not already producing good fruits and blessings.

11. How many married same-sex couples do you know?
None

12. Do you believe that same-sex couples’ relationships can show the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?
The very act of engaging in sexual sin shows a lack of self-control and does not honor The Spirit. Our bodies are His Temple. He is God. Therefore our bodies are the Temple of God. By dishonoring this Temple we are in rebellion. Rebellion is NOT a fruit of The Spirit.

13. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support same-sex marriage in the church?
Not a true Biblical Christian who is well immersed in The Word.

14. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support slavery?
Are we not slaves to Christ? This is the slavery I support.

15. If not, do you believe that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards were not actually Christians because they supported slavery?
The Bible gives many instructions on how people should treat their slaves. It happened and God knew it would. Paul called himself a slave. I cannot answer this question without knowing the type of slavery which is being referred to. Slavery here in the U.S. was often very cruel and I would never support this type of lifelong suffering. I would note that at this time, the only nations still engaging in slavery, and far too often slavery with cruelty, are found in Africa and the Middle East. I would in turn ask if Mr. Vine opposes today's slavery and what he is doing to alleviate it.

16. Do you think supporting same-sex marriage is a more serious problem than supporting slavery?
I support neither. I will note The Bible condemns sodomy. It's not about what I think anyway, it's about what God says.

17. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s passages about slavery before you felt comfortable believing that slavery is wrong?
Why keep trying to equate slavery with same sex marriage, unless that in doing so you are making the point that in embracing sexual sin people are enslaving theirselves to satan?

18. Does it cause you any concern that Christians throughout most of church history would have disagreed with you?
My concern is God, not man. I answer to Him just as we all do, and will.

19. Did you know that, for most of church history, Christians believed that the Bible taught the earth stood still at the center of the universe?
Yes

20. Does it cause you any concern that you disagree with their interpretation of the Bible?
The Bible does not condemn anyone for believing the earth doesn't move, it does condemn sodomy. Again, it's not what man believes, it's what God says.

21. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s verses on the topic before you felt comfortable believing that the earth revolves around the sun?
I'm not personally sure that the earth isn't the center of the universe which everything revolves around.

22. Do you know of any Christian writers before the 20th century who acknowledged that gay people must be celibate for life due to the church’s rejection of same-sex relationships?
I know John and Paul wrote the sexually immoral will not enter heaven. I know the Old Testament prophets wrote through the power of The Holy Spirit that sodomy is an abomination.

23. If not, might it be fair to say that mandating celibacy for gay Christians is not a traditional position.
According to The Bible sodomites were to be put to death. This is the original position. Living in the age of grace, our Creator is now giving all sinners numerous opportunities to repent of ALL our sins and accept Jesus.

24. Do you believe that the Bible explicitly teaches that all gay Christians must be single and celibate for life?
No, I believe The Bible teaches we should not entertain the thoughts of sinning, and that sodomy is a sin.

25. If not, do you feel comfortable affirming something that is not explicitly affirmed in the Bible?
Affirming same sex marriage is affirming an abomination condemned in The Bible.

26. Do you believe that the moral distinction between lust and love matters for LGBT people’s romantic relationships?
I don't honestly understand this question. I have to ask, can one have a friend, someone so close to them that they are closer than a brother, without engaging in physical relations with that person? If not, then isn't the relationship based on lust?

27. Do you think that loving same-sex relationships should be assessed in the same way as the same-sex behavior Paul explicitly describes as lustful in Romans 1?
All I care about is what God says.

28. Do you believe that Paul’s use of the terms “shameful” and “unnatural” in Romans 1:26-27 means that all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Absolutely!

29. Would you say the same about Paul’s description of long hair in men as “shameful” and against “nature” in 1 Corinthians 11:14, or would you say he was describing cultural norms of his time?
Hair is a cultural norm. Sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is a subject addressed and condemned many times in the Bible.

30. Do you believe that the capacity for procreation is essential to marriage?
No, older couples have nothing in The Bible to prevent them from marrying.

31. If so, what does that mean for infertile heterosexual couples?
How many couples know they are infertile before they marry? There is no prohibition against heterosexual couples who cannot procreate.

32. How much time have you spent engaging with the writings of LGBT-affirming Christians like Justin Lee, James Brownson, and Rachel Murr?
None, and I don't plan to. I follow God, not men. Men will always fail, God never will fail.

33. What relationship recognition rights short of marriage do you support for same-sex couples?
The Word says we are all condemned until we believe on Jesus. Once we give our lives to Jesus we are to take up our crosses and follow Him. We are to be salt and light to this world. Someone calling them self a Christian, engaging in a sin referred to as an abomination has destroyed their ability to witness for Jesus. They are not salt, they are not light, they have put down the cross and embraced sin. Paul would put these people out of the church until they repented.
For non-believers, they don't operate under the law of God, but I can tell you from personal experience, these are some of the most unhappy, miserable people you can find. They deny themselves the love of Jesus, and salvation, in favor of engaging in a sinful relationship that they know deep inside is wrong. Changing the laws on the books of men doesn't change God's laws. My prayer for them is to come to Jesus, accept Him, turn from sin, all of which is ultimately empty and leads to eternal condemnation, and receive The Comforter. God wants so much to shower you with His love and call you son/daughter, the only thing stopping you from having the most marvelous relationship that will ever exist, one with Him, is yourself. He won't force Himself on anyone, but anyone who accepts Jesus has the right to call Father God Abba (Daddy).

34. What are you doing to advocate for those rights?
Our rights are to obey The Bible.

35. Do you know who Tyler Clementi, Leelah Alcorn, and Blake Brockington are, and did your church offer any kind of prayer for them when their deaths made national news?
I don't know the names of most murder victims, I have a very short memory and their are lots of murders. The vast majority of murders do not target someone for their sexual preference. All murder is sin, but if someone is born with an orientation towards murder, shall we condemn them for being born that way? If so, why?
Once one is physically dead their eternal destiny has been decided. Of someone is in hell all the prayers of the world will not release them from there. If one is in heaven they have no need for prayer. I pray for the unbeliever to repent and accept Jesus. He suffered and died to keep them out of hell.

36. Do you know that LGBT youth whose families reject them are 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide than LGBT youth whose families support them?
That makes sense. Do you know people who engage in a same sex lifestyle often live 20 years less than their heterosexual counterparts?

37. Have you vocally objected when church leaders and other Christians have compared same-sex relationships to things like bestiality, incest, and pedophilia?
I've never heard a church leader make this comparison, but The Bible condemns bestiality and incest and also says whoever offends a little one would've been better off having a millstone around their neck.

38. How certain are you that God’s will for all gay Christians is lifelong celibacy?
It isn't, homosexuality is not in His will at all.

39. What do you think the result would be if we told all straight teenagers in the church that if they ever dated someone they liked, held someone’s hand, kissed someone, or got married, they would be rebelling against God?
Why would we lie to them?

40. Are you willing to be in fellowship with Christians who disagree with you on this topic?
I don't think I could. Telling someone sin is not sin rebels against God. My fellowship with Him has to be above any other fellowship.
 
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Rez63

Active Member
My answers:

1. Do you accept that sexual orientation is not a choice?
Sin is always a choice

2. Do you accept that sexual orientation is highly resistant to attempts to change it?
Yes, sin is terribly hard to overcome unless we allow the power of God, His Holy Spirit to work through us and recreate us as He meant for us to be. Just as a potter works with clay to mold and perfect it, we must allow our Creator to mold and guide us, to His glory and for our own welfare.

3. How many meaningful relationships with lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) people do you have?
None. I have relatives who fit in some of these categories, but physical distance keeps us from being close. At the same time I also have relatives who engage in adultery and fornication who also are not in close physical proximity. I don't shun any of them.

4. How many openly LGBT people would say you are one of their closest friends?
None, light is not supposed to dwell with darkness. A true friend is someone who will exhort you and bring you closer to The Lord.

5. How much time have you spent in one-on-one conversation with LGBT Christians about their faith and sexuality?
This is not an opportunity I have ever had.

6. Do you accept that heterosexual marriage is not a realistic option for most gay people?
Yes, as long as they engage in sin they will not be able to enjoy the blessing of a Biblical marriage. In the same way a drug addict can never enjoy the beauty of nature, they are always thinking about their next 'fix'. Most alcoholics will not stop and smell the flowers, alcohol dulls the senses including perception.

7. Do you accept that lifelong celibacy is the only valid option for most gay people if all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Possibly. I know of no one who ever died from being celibate, but many who died from std's. It is not the end of life. I have heard the testimonies of former homosexuals who gave their lives to Jesus, were released from the demon of homosexuality and went on to marry according to the law of God, and were and are very happy in their marriages, and extremely thankful to The Lord for the same.

8. How many gay brothers and sisters in Christ have you walked with on the path of mandatory celibacy, and for how long?
I've not had this opportunity.

9. What is your answer for gay Christians who struggled for years to live out a celibacy mandate but were driven to suicidal despair in the process?
I'm sorry to say this but once anyone has committed suicide they can no longer hear what any man has to say. To the living I would note that all of us have something we struggle with in life, few are exempt. To a Christian I would remind them that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and if given the chance, I would be someone willing to listen to them and encourage them in the things which are righteous, kind of like Paul who encouraged the churches to do righteous things.

10. Has mandatory celibacy produced good fruit in the lives of most gay Christians you know?
I'm not exposed on a personal level to gay Christians. I will note celibacy is the only alternative for someone who is not engaged in the Biblical concept of marriage. These people are not exposed to empty, physical relationships, std's, they don't have to worry about getting someone pregnant or becoming pregnant and they are not putting sin and physical desire above their walk with Jesus, so I can see no way celibacy outside of Biblical marriage is not already producing good fruits and blessings.

11. How many married same-sex couples do you know?
None

12. Do you believe that same-sex couples’ relationships can show the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?
The very act of engaging in sexual sin shows a lack of self-control and does not honor The Spirit. Our bodies are His Temple. He is God. Therefore our bodies are the Temple of God. By dishonoring this Temple we are in rebellion. Rebellion is NOT a fruit of The Spirit.

13. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support same-sex marriage in the church?
Not a true Biblical Christian who is well immersed in The Word.

14. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support slavery?
Are we not slaves to Christ? This is the slavery I support.

15. If not, do you believe that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards were not actually Christians because they supported slavery?
The Bible gives many instructions on how people should treat their slaves. It happened and God knew it would. Paul called himself a slave. I cannot answer this question without knowing the type of slavery which is being referred to. Slavery here in the U.S. was often very cruel and I would never support this type of lifelong suffering. I would note that at this time, the only nations still engaging in slavery, and far too often slavery with cruelty, are found in Africa and the Middle East. I would in turn ask if Mr. Vine opposes today's slavery and what he is doing to alleviate it.

16. Do you think supporting same-sex marriage is a more serious problem than supporting slavery?
I support neither. I will note The Bible condemns sodomy. It's not about what I think anyway, it's about what God says.

17. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s passages about slavery before you felt comfortable believing that slavery is wrong?
Why keep trying to equate slavery with same sex marriage, unless that in doing so you are making the point that in embracing sexual sin people are enslaving theirselves to satan?

18. Does it cause you any concern that Christians throughout most of church history would have disagreed with you?
My concern is God, not man. I answer to Him just as we all do, and will.

19. Did you know that, for most of church history, Christians believed that the Bible taught the earth stood still at the center of the universe?
Yes

20. Does it cause you any concern that you disagree with their interpretation of the Bible?
The Bible does not condemn anyone for believing the earth doesn't move, it does condemn sodomy. Again, it's not what man believes, it's what God says.

21. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s verses on the topic before you felt comfortable believing that the earth revolves around the sun?
I'm not personally sure that the earth isn't the center of the universe which everything revolves around.

22. Do you know of any Christian writers before the 20th century who acknowledged that gay people must be celibate for life due to the church’s rejection of same-sex relationships?
I know John and Paul wrote the sexually immoral will not enter heaven. I know the Old Testament prophets wrote through the power of The Holy Spirit that sodomy is an abomination.

23. If not, might it be fair to say that mandating celibacy for gay Christians is not a traditional position.
According to The Bible sodomites were to be put to death. This is the original position. Living in the age of grace, our Creator is now giving all sinners numerous opportunities to repent of ALL our sins and accept Jesus.

24. Do you believe that the Bible explicitly teaches that all gay Christians must be single and celibate for life?
No, I believe The Bible teaches we should not entertain the thoughts of sinning, and that sodomy is a sin.

25. If not, do you feel comfortable affirming something that is not explicitly affirmed in the Bible?
Affirming same sex marriage is affirming an abomination condemned in The Bible.

26. Do you believe that the moral distinction between lust and love matters for LGBT people’s romantic relationships?
I don't honestly understand this question. I have to ask, can one have a friend, someone so close to them that they are closer than a brother, without engaging in physical relations with that person? If not, then isn't the relationship based on lust?

27. Do you think that loving same-sex relationships should be assessed in the same way as the same-sex behavior Paul explicitly describes as lustful in Romans 1?
All I care about is what God says.

28. Do you believe that Paul’s use of the terms “shameful” and “unnatural” in Romans 1:26-27 means that all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Absolutely!

29. Would you say the same about Paul’s description of long hair in men as “shameful” and against “nature” in 1 Corinthians 11:14, or would you say he was describing cultural norms of his time?
Hair is a cultural norm. Sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is a subject addressed and condemned many times in the Bible.

30. Do you believe that the capacity for procreation is essential to marriage?
No, older couples have nothing in The Bible to prevent them from marrying.

31. If so, what does that mean for infertile heterosexual couples?
How many couples know they are infertile before they marry? There is no prohibition against heterosexual couples who cannot procreate.

32. How much time have you spent engaging with the writings of LGBT-affirming Christians like Justin Lee, James Brownson, and Rachel Murr?
None, and I don't plan to. I follow God, not men. Men will always fail, God never will fail.

33. What relationship recognition rights short of marriage do you support for same-sex couples?
The Word says we are all condemned until we believe on Jesus. Once we give our lives to Jesus we are to take up our crosses and follow Him. We are to be salt and light to this world. Someone calling them self a Christian, engaging in a sin referred to as an abomination has destroyed their ability to witness for Jesus. They are not salt, they are not light, they have put down the cross and embraced sin. Paul would put these people out of the church until they repented.
For non-believers, they don't operate under the law of God, but I can tell you from personal experience, these are some of the most unhappy, miserable people you can find. They deny themselves the love of Jesus, and salvation, in favor of engaging in a sinful relationship that they know deep inside is wrong. Changing the laws on the books of men doesn't change God's laws. My prayer for them is to come to Jesus, accept Him, turn from sin, all of which is ultimately empty and leads to eternal condemnation, and receive The Comforter. God wants so much to shower you with His love and call you son/daughter, the only thing stopping you from having the most marvelous relationship that will ever exist, one with Him, is yourself. He won't force Himself on anyone, but anyone who accepts Jesus has the right to call Father God Abba (Daddy).

34. What are you doing to advocate for those rights?
Our rights are to obey The Bible.

35. Do you know who Tyler Clementi, Leelah Alcorn, and Blake Brockington are, and did your church offer any kind of prayer for them when their deaths made national news?
I don't know the names of most murder victims, I have a very short memory and their are lots of murders. The vast majority of murders do not target someone for their sexual preference. All murder is sin, but if someone is born with an orientation towards murder, shall we condemn them for being born that way? If so, why?
Once one is physically dead their eternal destiny has been decided. Of someone is in hell all the prayers of the world will not release them from there. If one is in heaven they have no need for prayer. I pray for the unbeliever to repent and accept Jesus. He suffered and died to keep them out of hell.

36. Do you know that LGBT youth whose families reject them are 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide than LGBT youth whose families support them?
That makes sense. Do you know people who engage in a same sex lifestyle often live 20 years less than their heterosexual counterparts?

37. Have you vocally objected when church leaders and other Christians have compared same-sex relationships to things like bestiality, incest, and pedophilia?
I've never heard a church leader make this comparison, but The Bible condemns bestiality and incest and also says whoever offends a little one would've been better off having a millstone around their neck.

38. How certain are you that God’s will for all gay Christians is lifelong celibacy?
It isn't, homosexuality is not in His will at all.

39. What do you think the result would be if we told all straight teenagers in the church that if they ever dated someone they liked, held someone’s hand, kissed someone, or got married, they would be rebelling against God?
Why would we lie to them?

40. Are you willing to be in fellowship with Christians who disagree with you on this topic?
I don't think I could. Telling someone sin is not sin rebels against God. My fellowship with Him has to be above any other fellowship.
That was awesome, Micki! :thumbsup
 

Círeth

Purry, roary, one.
My answers:

1. Do you accept that sexual orientation is not a choice?
Sin is always a choice

2. Do you accept that sexual orientation is highly resistant to attempts to change it?
Yes, sin is terribly hard to overcome unless we allow the power of God, His Holy Spirit to work through us and recreate us as He meant for us to be. Just as a potter works with clay to mold and perfect it, we must allow our Creator to mold and guide us, to His glory and for our own welfare.

3. How many meaningful relationships with lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) people do you have?
None. I have relatives who fit in some of these categories, but physical distance keeps us from being close. At the same time I also have relatives who engage in adultery and fornication who also are not in close physical proximity. I don't shun any of them.

4. How many openly LGBT people would say you are one of their closest friends?
None, light is not supposed to dwell with darkness. A true friend is someone who will exhort you and bring you closer to The Lord.

5. How much time have you spent in one-on-one conversation with LGBT Christians about their faith and sexuality?
This is not an opportunity I have ever had.

6. Do you accept that heterosexual marriage is not a realistic option for most gay people?
Yes, as long as they engage in sin they will not be able to enjoy the blessing of a Biblical marriage. In the same way a drug addict can never enjoy the beauty of nature, they are always thinking about their next 'fix'. Most alcoholics will not stop and smell the flowers, alcohol dulls the senses including perception.

7. Do you accept that lifelong celibacy is the only valid option for most gay people if all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Possibly. I know of no one who ever died from being celibate, but many who died from std's. It is not the end of life. I have heard the testimonies of former homosexuals who gave their lives to Jesus, were released from the demon of homosexuality and went on to marry according to the law of God, and were and are very happy in their marriages, and extremely thankful to The Lord for the same.

8. How many gay brothers and sisters in Christ have you walked with on the path of mandatory celibacy, and for how long?
I've not had this opportunity.

9. What is your answer for gay Christians who struggled for years to live out a celibacy mandate but were driven to suicidal despair in the process?
I'm sorry to say this but once anyone has committed suicide they can no longer hear what any man has to say. To the living I would note that all of us have something we struggle with in life, few are exempt. To a Christian I would remind them that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us, and if given the chance, I would be someone willing to listen to them and encourage them in the things which are righteous, kind of like Paul who encouraged the churches to do righteous things.

10. Has mandatory celibacy produced good fruit in the lives of most gay Christians you know?
I'm not exposed on a personal level to gay Christians. I will note celibacy is the only alternative for someone who is not engaged in the Biblical concept of marriage. These people are not exposed to empty, physical relationships, std's, they don't have to worry about getting someone pregnant or becoming pregnant and they are not putting sin and physical desire above their walk with Jesus, so I can see no way celibacy outside of Biblical marriage is not already producing good fruits and blessings.

11. How many married same-sex couples do you know?
None

12. Do you believe that same-sex couples’ relationships can show the fruit of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control?
The very act of engaging in sexual sin shows a lack of self-control and does not honor The Spirit. Our bodies are His Temple. He is God. Therefore our bodies are the Temple of God. By dishonoring this Temple we are in rebellion. Rebellion is NOT a fruit of The Spirit.

13. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support same-sex marriage in the church?
Not a true Biblical Christian who is well immersed in The Word.

14. Do you believe that it is possible to be a Christian and support slavery?
Are we not slaves to Christ? This is the slavery I support.

15. If not, do you believe that Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Jonathan Edwards were not actually Christians because they supported slavery?
The Bible gives many instructions on how people should treat their slaves. It happened and God knew it would. Paul called himself a slave. I cannot answer this question without knowing the type of slavery which is being referred to. Slavery here in the U.S. was often very cruel and I would never support this type of lifelong suffering. I would note that at this time, the only nations still engaging in slavery, and far too often slavery with cruelty, are found in Africa and the Middle East. I would in turn ask if Mr. Vine opposes today's slavery and what he is doing to alleviate it.

16. Do you think supporting same-sex marriage is a more serious problem than supporting slavery?
I support neither. I will note The Bible condemns sodomy. It's not about what I think anyway, it's about what God says.

17. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s passages about slavery before you felt comfortable believing that slavery is wrong?
Why keep trying to equate slavery with same sex marriage, unless that in doing so you are making the point that in embracing sexual sin people are enslaving theirselves to satan?

18. Does it cause you any concern that Christians throughout most of church history would have disagreed with you?
My concern is God, not man. I answer to Him just as we all do, and will.

19. Did you know that, for most of church history, Christians believed that the Bible taught the earth stood still at the center of the universe?
Yes

20. Does it cause you any concern that you disagree with their interpretation of the Bible?
The Bible does not condemn anyone for believing the earth doesn't move, it does condemn sodomy. Again, it's not what man believes, it's what God says.

21. Did you spend any time studying the Bible’s verses on the topic before you felt comfortable believing that the earth revolves around the sun?
I'm not personally sure that the earth isn't the center of the universe which everything revolves around.

22. Do you know of any Christian writers before the 20th century who acknowledged that gay people must be celibate for life due to the church’s rejection of same-sex relationships?
I know John and Paul wrote the sexually immoral will not enter heaven. I know the Old Testament prophets wrote through the power of The Holy Spirit that sodomy is an abomination.

23. If not, might it be fair to say that mandating celibacy for gay Christians is not a traditional position.
According to The Bible sodomites were to be put to death. This is the original position. Living in the age of grace, our Creator is now giving all sinners numerous opportunities to repent of ALL our sins and accept Jesus.

24. Do you believe that the Bible explicitly teaches that all gay Christians must be single and celibate for life?
No, I believe The Bible teaches we should not entertain the thoughts of sinning, and that sodomy is a sin.

25. If not, do you feel comfortable affirming something that is not explicitly affirmed in the Bible?
Affirming same sex marriage is affirming an abomination condemned in The Bible.

26. Do you believe that the moral distinction between lust and love matters for LGBT people’s romantic relationships?
I don't honestly understand this question. I have to ask, can one have a friend, someone so close to them that they are closer than a brother, without engaging in physical relations with that person? If not, then isn't the relationship based on lust?

27. Do you think that loving same-sex relationships should be assessed in the same way as the same-sex behavior Paul explicitly describes as lustful in Romans 1?
All I care about is what God says.

28. Do you believe that Paul’s use of the terms “shameful” and “unnatural” in Romans 1:26-27 means that all same-sex relationships are sinful?
Absolutely!

29. Would you say the same about Paul’s description of long hair in men as “shameful” and against “nature” in 1 Corinthians 11:14, or would you say he was describing cultural norms of his time?
Hair is a cultural norm. Sexual immorality, including homosexuality, is a subject addressed and condemned many times in the Bible.

30. Do you believe that the capacity for procreation is essential to marriage?
No, older couples have nothing in The Bible to prevent them from marrying.

31. If so, what does that mean for infertile heterosexual couples?
How many couples know they are infertile before they marry? There is no prohibition against heterosexual couples who cannot procreate.

32. How much time have you spent engaging with the writings of LGBT-affirming Christians like Justin Lee, James Brownson, and Rachel Murr?
None, and I don't plan to. I follow God, not men. Men will always fail, God never will fail.

33. What relationship recognition rights short of marriage do you support for same-sex couples?
The Word says we are all condemned until we believe on Jesus. Once we give our lives to Jesus we are to take up our crosses and follow Him. We are to be salt and light to this world. Someone calling them self a Christian, engaging in a sin referred to as an abomination has destroyed their ability to witness for Jesus. They are not salt, they are not light, they have put down the cross and embraced sin. Paul would put these people out of the church until they repented.
For non-believers, they don't operate under the law of God, but I can tell you from personal experience, these are some of the most unhappy, miserable people you can find. They deny themselves the love of Jesus, and salvation, in favor of engaging in a sinful relationship that they know deep inside is wrong. Changing the laws on the books of men doesn't change God's laws. My prayer for them is to come to Jesus, accept Him, turn from sin, all of which is ultimately empty and leads to eternal condemnation, and receive The Comforter. God wants so much to shower you with His love and call you son/daughter, the only thing stopping you from having the most marvelous relationship that will ever exist, one with Him, is yourself. He won't force Himself on anyone, but anyone who accepts Jesus has the right to call Father God Abba (Daddy).

34. What are you doing to advocate for those rights?
Our rights are to obey The Bible.

35. Do you know who Tyler Clementi, Leelah Alcorn, and Blake Brockington are, and did your church offer any kind of prayer for them when their deaths made national news?
I don't know the names of most murder victims, I have a very short memory and their are lots of murders. The vast majority of murders do not target someone for their sexual preference. All murder is sin, but if someone is born with an orientation towards murder, shall we condemn them for being born that way? If so, why?
Once one is physically dead their eternal destiny has been decided. Of someone is in hell all the prayers of the world will not release them from there. If one is in heaven they have no need for prayer. I pray for the unbeliever to repent and accept Jesus. He suffered and died to keep them out of hell.

36. Do you know that LGBT youth whose families reject them are 8.4 times more likely to attempt suicide than LGBT youth whose families support them?
That makes sense. Do you know people who engage in a same sex lifestyle often live 20 years less than their heterosexual counterparts?

37. Have you vocally objected when church leaders and other Christians have compared same-sex relationships to things like bestiality, incest, and pedophilia?
I've never heard a church leader make this comparison, but The Bible condemns bestiality and incest and also says whoever offends a little one would've been better off having a millstone around their neck.

38. How certain are you that God’s will for all gay Christians is lifelong celibacy?
It isn't, homosexuality is not in His will at all.

39. What do you think the result would be if we told all straight teenagers in the church that if they ever dated someone they liked, held someone’s hand, kissed someone, or got married, they would be rebelling against God?
Why would we lie to them?

40. Are you willing to be in fellowship with Christians who disagree with you on this topic?
I don't think I could. Telling someone sin is not sin rebels against God. My fellowship with Him has to be above any other fellowship.
Thank you sister. :) Excellent response.
 

DanLMP

Well-Known Member
It's easy to see that Mr. Vine was only interested in man's rules and in twisting the ideas and words of the Bible, our Father's words.
I don't think he believes in Biblical inerrancy.

You either choose our Father or you choose man. You either choose our Father's rules or man's rules.
Sometimes the result is not what "man" would usually choose.
Sometimes that's your Father calling out to you so that you can learn to depend on Him.
None of us gets from birth to death with no struggles at all. The cause of the struggle is the fall. Our Father uses our struggles to call us.
Listen up!
 

Rez63

Active Member
Thank you Micki for the well written answers, I have had many a conversions with family members who claim to be christian but yet in brace
homosexuality.
Off topic here for a sec, but....:welcome2to Rapture Forums sherrh!!!! I look forward to your posts!!!!
 
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