Jeremiah 49:23-27
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    YeuEmMaiMai is offline Citizen

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    Default Jeremiah 49:23-27

    23 Concerning Damascus. Hamath is confounded, and Arpad: for they have heard evil tidings: they are fainthearted; there is sorrow on the sea; it cannot be quiet.

    24 Damascus is waxed feeble, and turneth herself to flee, and fear hath seized on her: anguish and sorrows have taken her, as a woman in travail.

    25 How is the city of praise not left, the city of my joy!

    26 Therefore her young men shall fall in her streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day, saith the Lord of hosts.

    27 And I will kindle a fire in the wall of Damascus, and it shall consume the palaces of Benhadad.


    what do you all think?
    John 3:16, read it and understand it for time is growing short...

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    tony3487 is online now Member

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    I'm having a hard time with this. I need a 21st century interpretation.

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by tony3487 View Post
    I'm having a hard time with this. I need a 21st century interpretation.
    ~ Sorrow, or turmoil on the sea (our warships)

    ~ Damascus is made feeble (Damascus today is extremely weak, delicate. Look at it)

    ~ People there are in anguish, fleeing (many there now suffer and flee to Jordan)

    ~ Verse 26 (people are dying everywhere all the time and there's war in Syria)

    This verse is applicable to show that the situation now is very well setup for this prophecy to be fulfilled, and hence Psalm 83.

    Amos 1:5 reiterates this.

    I will break the gate-bar of Damascus,
    and cut off the inhabitants from the Valley of Aven,[a]
    and him who holds the scepter from Beth-eden;
    and the people of Syria shall go into exile to Kir,”
    says the Lord.

    Kir is in Jordan. Syrians are fleeing to Jordan in droves.
    "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

    C.S. Lewis

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    What's Going On In Damascus? - Gracethrufaith

    What’s Going On In Damascus?
    Saturday, May 25th, 2013
    Commentary by Jack Kelley

    The city of Damascus is mentioned 60 times in the Bible from Genesis 14:15 to Acts 22:10. Abraham’s chief servant, Eliazer, was from Damascus and Paul spent his first days as a Christian there. According to Flavius Josephus, Damascus was founded by Uz, the son of Aram who was the patriarch of the Aramean people. Aram was the 5th son of Shem, and Uz was the first son of Aram. (According to Job 1:1, Job was from the land of Uz.)

    Throughout its history Damascus has been conquered many times. Most notably by the Israelites (1000 BC), the Assyrians (732 BC), the Babylonians (606 BC), the Persians (530 BC), the Greeks (330 BC), the Nabateans (85 BC), the Romans (63 BC), the Byzantines (634 AD), the Mamelukes (1250 AD) and the Ottoman Turks (1516 AD). But the city itself has always survived and is now claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world.

    Several of these conquests are referred to in the Bible. 2 Samuel 8:6-7 describes David and the Israelites. Parts of Isaiah 17 involve the Assyrians, Jeremiah 49:23-27 is about the Babylonian conquest and Zechariah 9:1-2 was fulfilled by Alexander the Great.

    An Oracle Against Damascus

    Probably the best known prophecy about Damascus is Isaiah 17, called An Oracle Against Damascus. Its 14 verses go back and forth between the Assyrian conquest in the 8th Century BC and a battle that hasn’t taken place yet. One reason we know this is because Isaiah 17:1 says, “See Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.” It speaks of a battle that will mark the end of Damascus, something scholars agree has not happened yet. Other verses in Isaiah 17 confirm a future fulfillment of this destruction. Specifically, verse 7 tells us that after the destruction of Damascus men will look to their maker and turn their eyes to the Holy One of Israel. And verse 9 tells of their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, becoming like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation. In the 8th century BC no one turned back to God and it was the Israelites who were forced to leave.

    Currently there are three wars going on in Syria, any one of which could lead to the fulfillment of Isaiah 17. The obvious one is the civil war that’s been going on for the last two years. As many as 80,000 have died in this war to oust current President Assad from power and end his family’s control over the country.

    But there’s also a secondary war that’s becoming more critical, and that’s an effort underway by Iran and Hizbollah to widen the Syrian conflict into Lebanon, Jordan, and Israel. All parties involved believe this effort could explode into a regional war at any time. If so it could be the fulfillment of Isaiah 17 as well as Psalm 83, which many see as the prophecy of a war that pits all of Israel’s next door neighbors agsinst Israel, and from which Israel will emerge victorious. Just this week, Hizbollah officials confirmed that Syria is serious about expanding the war onto the Golan Heights, territory Israel regained from Syria in 1973.

    The War No One’s Watching

    The third war is a little known one that could very well be the single deciding factor as to whether the civil war will escalate into the fulfillment of prophecy. This war is between two men, Vladimir Putin and Barack Obama. According to informed Middle East sources each man has a vision for how the Syrian civil war should end. Obama wants Assad gone and Putin wants him to stay. They not only can’t agree on how to proceed, but each one is also trying to torpedo the other ones chances of succeeding. These sources say it’s the inability of these two men to agree that is standing in the way of a resolution to the crisis and as long as their disagreement continues the probability of the war spilling over the borders into neighboring countries becomes ever more likely to happen.

    Most of the news sources I read have concluded that Obama is outclassed in this disagreement and that sooner or later Putin will have his way. He’s already won a couple of big battles. Refusing to keep Iran in check and refusing to withhold the sale of advanced anti-aircraft batteries to Syria are two of the most obvious. The first has given Assad powerful assistance on the ground and the second will give him protection from aerial attack by Israel. In both cases, Obama stood by and let this happen.

    Bible prophecy might favor Putin in this case. According to Ezekiel 38-39 Russia will be a major participant in that battle, and having a strong position in the Middle East would be an important advantage. Remember, when the Moslem coalition attacks it will be from the North (Ezekiel 38:15). That could mean they’ll come from Syria over the Golan Heights. I’m not saying we’re seeing a run up to Ezekiel 38, but we all know it’s coming and if Russia already has a presence in Syria they would have an advantage in mounting what scholars believe will be a surprise attack.

    In the mean time, the Russian / Iranian support has strengthened and emboldened Assad. So much so that he was willing to risk using chemical weapons against the rebel forces. Obama had previously said this would not be tolerated, but so far, even after being confronted with clear evidence, he denied it has happened. In Syria this has been interpreted to mean that limited use of chemical weapons will be tolerated.

    Israeli leaders have been more resolute. After all it’s their country that’s being directly threatened by this. When they detected the movement of prohibited weaponry into Lebanon for Hizbollah’s use against them they attacked and destroyed it. Again, Obama stood by while Putin authorized the delivery of advanced anti-aircraft defenses to Syria. Its purpose is to prevent further pre-emptive attacks from Israel by denying them air superiority.

    Informed sources are beginning to see the hand writing on the wall. As Israel is progressively denied the use of small steps to pre-empt the threat from their sworn enemies their only recourse will be to take big ones. When that happens, one leading Israeli correspondent has said Obama will stand right behind Assad in the line of people to blame.

    Are We There Yet?

    We’ve come close to the fulfillment of Isaiah 17 before. Each time cooler heads have prevailed and the destruction of Damascus has been postponed. I say postponed because Isaiah’s prophecy will be fulfilled. We have God’s promise on that. He said,

    “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times what is still to come. What I have said, that will I bring about. What I have planned, that will I do” (Isaiah 46:10-11).

    Various reports confirm a conviction among Israel’s military and political leaders that war with Syria is coming. (Some say it could be a long one, while others hint that it will more likely be very short.) There also appears to be a consensus among the Jewish people that they must win and win decisively.

    If it’s God’s timing this will be the fulfillment of Isaiah 17, and perhaps Psalm 83 as well. If it’s not, we’ll be drawn back from the brink once again to catch our breath and wait for the next run-up. Chances are it won’t be long in coming. You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 05-25-13
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    What's Going On In Damascus? More Follow Up - Gracethrufaith

    What’s Going On In Damascus? More Follow Up
    Friday, May 31st, 2013

    Q. I disagree with your suggestion that Jeremiah 49:23-27 was fulfilled during the Babylonian conquest. There are two primary reasons for this. 1.) Jer. 49:23 says that there is trouble on the sea, probably alluding to the Mediterranean Sea, and Nebuchadnezzar did not conquer from the sea. 2.) More convincingly is Jer. 49:25 that asks the rhetorical question, “Why is the city of praise not deserted, the city of My joy?” This city would be Jerusalem, and Jerusalem was destroyed during the Babylonian conquest.

    A. A word study of the Hebrew language of Jeremiah 49:23 convinced me that the King James translators made several assumptions in their rendering of this verse. For instance the word for trouble literally means sorrow or anxiety. Since a body of water cannot demonstrate emotions I believe this was meant to be a metaphor of the conditions in Hamath and Arpad. I think the NIV translation conveys the idea of the Hebrew more effectively. Speaking of Hamath and Arpad it says, “They are disheartened, troubled like the restless sea” (Jeremiah 49:23)

    Also, I don’t think there’s any good reason for Jeremiah 49:25 to be a reference to Jerusalem. In the first place the context of Jeremiah 49:23-27 is clearly about Damascus. The city is identified as Damascus in verses 24 and 27, which bracket verse 25 and confirm my point that Damascus was not destroyed at the time. And finally, Jerusalem was destroyed about 20 years later in a separate battle.

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    ~ Sorrow, or turmoil on the sea (our warships)

    ~ Damascus is made feeble (Damascus today is extremely weak, delicate. Look at it)

    ~ People there are in anguish, fleeing (many there now suffer and flee to Jordan)

    ~ Verse 26 (people are dying everywhere all the time and there's war in Syria)

    This verse is applicable to show that the situation now is very well setup for this prophecy to be fulfilled, and hence Psalm 83.

    Amos 1:5 reiterates this.

    I will break the gate-bar of Damascus,
    and cut off the inhabitants from the Valley of Aven,[a]
    and him who holds the scepter from Beth-eden;
    and the people of Syria shall go into exile to Kir,”
    says the Lord.

    Kir is in Jordan. Syrians are fleeing to Jordan in droves.
    The Amos quote is questionable for our day considering the time of Amos' prophecy. He prophesied for a relatively short time and in conjunction with Hosea. His prophetic time period was mid 8th century BC. He prophesied that Tiglath Pileser III would come in and conquer these cities but not Damascus, its gates were breached and its exits were all blocked. Damascus was too important and survived in tact, but became occupied and was a vassal state to Assyria. But 130,000 some of its people were carried away captive to areas where they were enslaved to help make weapons for the Assyrian campaign. Besides the Bible the history of these vassal states and war campaigns are written in Babylonian Chronicles, Assyrian tablets, and wall reliefs. Remember Assyria conquered all of this territory in the 8th century. Hamath was conquered in 740 BC and (ANET Princeton 1969) and ARPAD 738 BC and Damascus 731 BC. The records show that they were not completely destroyed because they are paying taxes to Assyria

    As far as Jeremiah 49, He prophesied in the 6th and 7th centuries BC. (620ish to 560ish) His mention of these cities proves they were still in tact. Nebuchadnezzar conquered Hamath and Arpad in 595-594 BC according to historical record, but did not wipe them out. The Heb. word LO could also mean absolutely completely evacuated not completely destroyed. The march to these cities would have been down the Mediterranean coast toward Phonecia in order to cut off any arms supply from the seas. Same with Assyrian a 100 yrs earlier.

    So there is a possibility that it could refer to a latter day time period considering these places would again become inhabited. Today part of Arpad is a Tel, a mound awaiting full excavations called Tel-Erfad, but the remaining city and ancient 8 meter walls are called Tel-Rifaat. What is interesting is in 2012 the Syrian air force attacked Tel-Rifaat and killed 6 people.

    Because Jeremiah prophesied about it we must rule out the Assyrian sieges as possible fulfillments of his prophecy, they were 110 to 150 years earlier than Jeremiah prophesied.

    So his prophecy could go hand in hand with Is. 17.

    God Bless
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    In Christ,

    Daniel 12:3 (New King James Version)

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    Like the brightness of the firmament,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Let's assume these were assuredly fulfilled then and therefore have no end-times application. Could we therefore claim that we are in the millennial kingdom because Antiochus Epiphanes was the antichrist, having fulfilled the abomination that maketh desolate?
    "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

    C.S. Lewis

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    Let's assume these were assuredly fulfilled then and therefore have no end-times application. Could we therefore claim that we are in the millennial kingdom because Antiochus Epiphanes was the antichrist, having fulfilled the abomination that maketh desolate?
    That wouldn't make sense to me, because Antiochus Epiphanes died in 164 BC, long before Jesus was ever born. Yet Jesus warned about a future Antichrist and a future abomination that causes desolation. I believe the former was a partial fulfillment or a foreshadowing of what is to come.

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Cole View Post
    That wouldn't make sense to me, because Antiochus Epiphanes died in 164 BC, long before Jesus was ever born. Yet Jesus warned about a future Antichrist and a future abomination that causes desolation. I believe the former was a partial fulfillment or a foreshadowing of what is to come.
    There were many. The Antiochus I reference is the IV.

    See:

    Deception In The End Times

    Just What Is the Abomination of Desolation? - Good News Magazine | United Church of God
    "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

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    Thumbs up Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    Thank you!

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    I just read your first link and it agrees with what I just stated:

    Some people claim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes committed the abomination of desolation, thus fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15. But this is simply not true. Although the Book of Daniel was written prior to 167 B.C., the Olivet Discourse took place almost two centuries later. Jesus was well aware of the abominable acts committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. After all, the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah is a celebration of the Temple’s liberation from the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Clearly, Jesus spoke of a future abomination:

    “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about – the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” Matthew 24:15 (NLT)

    Although Antiochus IV Epiphanes came in the spirit and power of the Antichrist, the Antichrist himself will be the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecies in Daniel 11, Daniel 9:27, and Matthew 24:15. This is why Jesus referred to the desecration of the Temple as a still future event.
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Cole View Post
    Thank you!
    No worries! It can be confusing. There were also many Herods!



    To everyone - I wouldn't say these scriptures apply to this situation resolutely, but we cannot deny some interesting similarities, could we?
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Cole View Post
    I just read your first link and it agrees with what I just stated:

    Some people claim that Antiochus IV Epiphanes committed the abomination of desolation, thus fulfilling the prophecies of Daniel 9:27 and Matthew 24:15. But this is simply not true. Although the Book of Daniel was written prior to 167 B.C., the Olivet Discourse took place almost two centuries later. Jesus was well aware of the abominable acts committed by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. After all, the Jewish holiday of Hanukkah is a celebration of the Temple’s liberation from the rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Clearly, Jesus spoke of a future abomination:

    “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about – the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” Matthew 24:15 (NLT)

    Although Antiochus IV Epiphanes came in the spirit and power of the Antichrist, the Antichrist himself will be the ultimate fulfillment of the prophecies in Daniel 11, Daniel 9:27, and Matthew 24:15. This is why Jesus referred to the desecration of the Temple as a still future event.
    You know what, you're right! It's way too early, and I'm still getting over a fever. Antiochus did act in 167 B.C. I was thinking of the destruction of the temple and siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    I am of the belief that this is occurring now and has not occurred in the past. As for needing a modern translation, I don't have any trouble getting the idea from the KJV. If idea, if you are wondering, is that Damascus is meeting it's prophetic fate....

    Trouble in the sea I believe is the small but extremely powerful US ships sitting out there that can literally lay waste to the entire country/region (who knows how many us nuclear subs are in the area)...

    also, there are a ton of Syrians that have fled into Jordan...

    the fire in it's walls I believe is the upcoming nuclear strike...
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    John 3:16, read it and understand it for time is growing short...

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    Let's assume these were assuredly fulfilled then and therefore have no end-times application. Could we therefore claim that we are in the millennial kingdom because Antiochus Epiphanes was the antichrist, having fulfilled the abomination that maketh desolate?
    Not sure if you are referring to what I stated but the only prophesy you mention that I said was questionable was the Amos one. The Jeremiah prophecy could very well be what we are seeing with Is. 17. We will wait and we will see.

    God bless
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    Those who are wise shall shine
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    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhen7 View Post
    Not sure if you are referring to what I stated but the only prophesy you mention that I said was questionable was the Amos one. The Jeremiah prophecy could very well be what we are seeing with Is. 17. We will wait and we will see.

    God bless
    Just disregard that example. What I was trying to point out is, there's typically a historical fulfillment and end-times fulfillment to some prophecies. But yes, it's not certain.
    "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Noah Cotterill View Post
    Let's assume these were assuredly fulfilled then and therefore have no end-times application. Could we therefore claim that we are in the millennial kingdom because Antiochus Epiphanes was the antichrist, having fulfilled the abomination that maketh desolate?
    No, because there has never been a third temple, 2nd coming of Jesus physically to earth, etc. the list goes on and on. The preterists are simply grasping at straws and trying to deny a literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Here's a link from the main site that talks about the preterists view in depth:

    Has Bible Prophecy Already Been Fulfilled?
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    No, because there has never been a third temple, 2nd coming of Jesus physically to earth, etc. the list goes on and on. The preterists are simply grasping at straws and trying to deny a literal fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Here's a link from the main site that talks about the preterists view in depth:

    Has Bible Prophecy Already Been Fulfilled?
    I agree. I was being facetious. I actually made a mistake. I was just trying to point out that it may still have end-times implication. The preterists have no ground to stand on, indeed. I wasn't intending on making this a discussion about that ideology.
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    Default Re: Jeremiah 49:23-27

    Hey guys.....watch out for the United Church of God stuff. This is actually a cult derived from the World Wide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong, which believes in keeping Saturday, the Holy Days and is more of a legalistic, Old Testament focus. They have some truth mixed with off teachings. I grew up in this church....at the time, the grace of Christ, that we are saved by faith in Christ was just not emphasized (as I re-call, and I took avid notes...so I know), we kept all of the Holy Days the Jewish people do, including the Day of Atonement even. As a result there was a strong sense of performance v.s. resting in the work of Christ and as a result I didn't feel the peace and assurance that I was truly in the kingdom of God. The correct teaching that we are saved through faith in Christ, and that it was Jesus' work on my behalf that imputes righteousness just wasn't emphasized or I don't think even taught at the time. They did have some prophecy stuff correct (to this day I'm interested in the subject because of this)...but there's enough bad theology (from what I remember) there to cause one to be very careful. I hope that they will more and more embrace the full grace and work of Jesus and understand that rest is available to them.

    Here's a brief synapsis:

    The United Church of God, today active with congregations in more than 50 countries, began as a formal assembly in 1995. Doctrinal distinctives of the Church include the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, a New Testament application of God's Holy Days (which Jesus also kept and which the Church believes are a literal representation of God's plan for humanity) and a firm belief that Jesus Christ will return to earth to institute a benevolent, world-encircling Kingdom of God.

    As authoritative historical records clearly show, a number of extra-biblical practices entered the early church within a century after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Recognizing that fact, the United Church of God strives to directly mirror the beliefs and practices of the first-century teachings of Jesus and the original apostles. This leads the Church to choose not to participate in common worship practices that were added without biblical mandate, including the observance of Christmas and Easter.
    About the United Church of God | United Church of God
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