Chart of the Ps 83 nations and their fates

[RandallB]

Here is a chart of the Ps 83 nations and their fates.



Really takes your breath away...

for all those caught in these evils that they will come to the Lord.

[Sean Osborne]

I find agrement with all of these Psalm 83 "fates" except for the last. That one has a major error.

Assyria (Asshur in the original Hebrew language) has nothing to do with Isaiah 17:1. Isaiah 17 does not even mention Asshur. What it does mention in verse 1 is Dammeseq (Damascus) and in verse 3 Isaiah ties Dammeseq directly with the remnant of 'Aram, which is what we know today as the country of Syria.

Syria ('Aram) and Assyria (Asshur) are two entirely different ancient countries.

The same is true in Psalm 83 but in the reverse. Psalm 83 does not mention 'Aram (Syria), it names Asshur which is modern-day Iraq.

'Aram is the plain to the west of the River Euphrates and Asshur is Mesopotamia proper, the land between the Euphrates River east bank and the Tigris River west bank.

During the time of David's and Solomon's kingdoms, circa 1000-930 BC when Asaph must have composed the prophetic Psalm 83, Israel was actually an empire which included the kingdom of 'Aram-Dammeseq all the way to the west bank of the Eurphrates River. The map below clearly illustrates the keen distinction between 'Aram and Asshur that needs to be made with respect to Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17, and proves why we must read these prophetic texts exactly as they were written and not transpose one nation over the other in our interpretation of them.

[RandallB]

I agree with your assessment for King David's timeframe.
Assyria had only taken the very northern part of Syria at this time.

However Isaiah's ministry was a couple hundred years after David.
Things change. Cities get taken.

Isaiah 8:3-7 clearly states that Damascus was conquered by Assyria during Isaiah's lifetime. Before one of his sons could learn to say Mama or Dada.

Also connecting Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17 together are the common use of the same six Hebrew words of galgal, paniym, ruach, har, radaph, and suphah as comparatively parenthesized below. This suggests a connection between the prophecies of Psalm 83 and Isaiah 17.

(Psalm 83:13-15) O my God, make them like the whirling dust, (galgal) Like the chaff before (paniym) the wind! (ruach) As the fire burns the woods, And as the flame sets the mountains (har) on fire, So pursue (radaph) them with Your tempest, And frighten them with Your storm. (suphah)

(Isaiah 17:13) The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased (radaph) like the chaff of the mountains (har) before (paniym) the wind, (ruach) Like a rolling (galgal) thing before (paniym) the whirlwind. (suphah) (NKJV) (Source: Bill Salus)

Although I can't be dogmatic about it, the fact that Assyria had conquered Damascus and the fact that there are similar wording connecting them (which merely strenghtens not proves), I feel comfortable with connecting Assyria to Damascus (at least) in Isaiah's prophecy.

[Sean Osborne]

I agree with your assessment for King David's timeframe.
Assyria had only taken the very northern part of Syria at this time.

What evidence can you cite that Asshur had conquered any land west of the Euphrates River circa 1000 BC?

I have studied this extensively for decades and have not found any evidence of Asshur expanding westward into 'Aram until the reign of Shalmaneser III (circa 858-824 BC), and which is about 250 years after Asaph wrote Psalm 83.

I have also discussed this at length with Bill Salus (Isralestine) for a couple years now. Even he has not yet proven that Asshur in Psalm 83:8 has any direct relationship to 'Aram.

Asshur in this age referring to Iraq makes more hermeneutical sense. The relationship between Iraq and Jordan is exactly as described in Psalm 83:8 ("Asshur also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.') for the entire duration of Psalm 83, at least since it began the process of fulfillment in November 1947.

Also, any man (or woman) who wishes to take that verse ("Asshur also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.) which has been unchanged for millennia and change it to ('Aram also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.) is certainly free to do so.

However, I would highly advise against it because such an exegesis rejects every tenet of proper Biblical heremeneutics. I also certainly do not believe the Holy Spirit abides with such an alteration. FWIW.

[RandallB]

What evidence can you cite that Asshur had conquered any land west of the Euphrates River circa 1000 BC?
....

I was not able to find the reference that is in the back of my mind of an Assyrian general floating his men across the Euphrates on animal skins circa 1100 BC. (probably a fable of my mind)

But I did find one in wikipedia that had a reference back to Collins Encyclopedia of Military History, P9.

Tiglath-Pileser I - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tiglath-Pileser I ... was a king of Assyria during the Middle Assyrian period (1114–1076 BC). ... He expanded Assyrian control into Anatolia and Syria, and to the shores of the Mediterranean.[

Also in Jewish Virtual Library

Aram, Arameans

Tiglath-Pileser I mentions that in his fourth year (1113 B.C.E.) he routed the Aḫlamē Aramāi̯a in the Euphrates region, from the land of Suḫu in the south to Carchemish in the north. At that time the Arameans had already settled in the Mount Bishri district, southeast of the Euphrates bend, where Tiglath-Pileser devastated six of their villages. They are further mentioned as far west as the Tadmor (Palmyra) oasis and even in the foothills of Mount Lebanon. Tiglath-Pileser's son, Ashur-bel-kala (1073–1056 B.C.E.), refers specifically to the land of Aram (māt Arime) without connecting it with Ahlamē.



[For some reason Palmyra is not showing up on the above map. It is pretty much in the middle of modern day Syria.]

I do understand the issue of Damascus not being in Assyria at the time of the writing of Ps 83. The issue for me includes events that are associated with the Lord's judgments on the Ps 83 nations thus being post-rapture.

I do not see Isa 17 described as a judgment of the Lord. Isa 17 maybe pre-rapture in that case. However I see a hint of the Lord's judgments on the nations (those surrounding Israel?? thus Ps 83) in that He rebukes them in verse 13 and they flee far away. If that is the case then the timing between Isa 17 v1 and Ps 83 maybe a few days at the most.

[Sean Osborne]

I was not able to find the reference that is in the back of my mind of an Assyrian general floating his men across the Euphrates on animal skins circa 1100 BC. (probably a fable of my mind)

The point is that all land east of the Euphrates when Asaph composed Psalm 83 was not 'Aram, but was Assyria proper. This is why Aram has no prophetic role within the context of Psalm 83 but Asshur does.

The Jewish Virtual Library's use of a modern-era outline map of Syria ('Aram) does not make any point with respect to the above. These are Jews who are spiritually deaf and blind due to the disobedience of their fathers in ancient times - they do not understand anything at all regarding God-breathed prophecy. Their spirutual blindness and deafness will not be lifted from them until after the Church Age Dispensation has ended and the 70th Week has begun. (Deuteronomy 29:4 and Romans 11). At that time the Jews they will come to understand everything, from the Covenants of Moses, to the atonement for sin through Christ Jesus, to their role in the future of planet earth.

Side note: This spiritual blindness and deafness is why the government of Israel has been willing after each successive war with the Arabs since 1948 to trade land for peace. These Jews have no clue regarding the spiritual covenant with God regarding the land they have come to re-possess according to His decree. Every Israeli military victory since 1948 has been a miracle of God because it is His sovereign will for the future of Israel and planet earth; were it not so then the modern State of Israel would have ceased to exist long ago.

Getting back to the topic, Aspah's specific reference of Asshur being a help to the children of Lot is a direct reference to a modern-day land east of the Euphrates (Iraq) being a help to the also modern-day land of The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. This is why Iraq has been of great assistance to Jordan since 1948 and will continue to be until Psalm 83 has come to its complete fulfillment.

I believe this will occur in the post-Isaiah 17 fulfillment world (i.e. relatively soon).

[GlennO]

Euphrates image

Google Image Result for http://peakwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Euphrates-River.jpg

[Sean Osborne]

Euphrates image

Google Image Result for http://peakwater.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Euphrates-River.jpg

Excellent image. It is from an NPR program about a city in Latifiyah, Iraq (20 miles south of Baghdad, population 250,000) where the eastern bank of the Euphrates River all but dried up during the drought of 2008-2009. The woman is Fadilla Finchaan, a then 50-year old sheep herder from Latifiyah who posed in a staged scene by Associated Press photographer Hadi Mizban in July 2009.

[RandallB]

The point is that all land east of the Euphrates when Asaph composed Psalm 83 was not 'Aram, but was Assyria proper. This is why Aram has no prophetic role within the context of Psalm 83 but Asshur does.

The Jewish Virtual Library's use of a modern-era outline map of Syria ('Aram) does not make any point with respect to the above. These are Jews who are spiritually deaf and blind due to the disobedience of their fathers in ancient times - they do not understand anything at all regarding God-breathed prophecy. Their spirutual blindness and deafness will not be lifted from them until after the Church Age Dispensation has ended and the 70th Week has begun. (Deuteronomy 29:4 and Romans 11). At that time the Jews they will come to understand everything, from the Covenants of Moses, to the atonement for sin through Christ Jesus, to their role in the future of planet earth.

Side note: This spiritual blindness and deafness is why the government of Israel has been willing after each successive war with the Arabs since 1948 to trade land for peace. These Jews have no clue regarding the spiritual covenant with God regarding the land they have come to re-possess according to His decree. Every Israeli military victory since 1948 has been a miracle of God because it is His sovereign will for the future of Israel and planet earth; were it not so then the modern State of Israel would have ceased to exist long ago.

Getting back to the topic, Aspah's specific reference of Asshur being a help to the children of Lot is a direct reference to a modern-day land east of the Euphrates (Iraq) being a help to the also modern-day land of The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan. This is why Iraq has been of great assistance to Jordan since 1948 and will continue to be until Psalm 83 has come to its complete fulfillment.

I believe this will occur in the post-Isaiah 17 fulfillment world (i.e. relatively soon).

I have been thinking about this and I believe that I have come around to your side Sean.

I agree that they are very closely tied but Aram is not mentioned by Aspah.

Isaiah did have Asshur conquer Damascus before his son could say Dada which was before he wrote Isa 17 ( a yet future and complete distruction) but that is Isaiah not Aspah.

Thx for the great discernment!

[Lujack Skylark]

What evidence can you cite that Asshur had conquered any land west of the Euphrates River circa 1000 BC?

I have studied this extensively for decades and have not found any evidence of Asshur expanding westward into 'Aram until the reign of Shalmaneser III (circa 858-824 BC), and which is about 250 years after Asaph wrote Psalm 83.

I have also discussed this at length with Bill Salus (Isralestine) for a couple years now. Even he has not yet proven that Asshur in Psalm 83:8 has any direct relationship to 'Aram.

Asshur in this age referring to Iraq makes more hermeneutical sense. The relationship between Iraq and Jordan is exactly as described in Psalm 83:8 ("Asshur also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.') for the entire duration of Psalm 83, at least since it began the process of fulfillment in November 1947.

Also, any man (or woman) who wishes to take that verse ("Asshur also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.) which has been unchanged for millennia and change it to ('Aram also is joined with them, They have been an arm to sons of Lot.) is certainly free to do so.

However, I would highly advise against it because such an exegesis rejects every tenet of proper Biblical heremeneutics. I also certainly do not believe the Holy Spirit abides with such an alteration. FWIW.

Assyrian king Tiglath-pileser I had conquered all the land west to the Mediterranean Sea and history records he caught a whale off the coast of the Levant BUT after Tiglath-pileser I had died, the Aramaens moved against the Assyrians and their land holdings greatly diminished. The Assyrians were having problems with the Aramaeans during the time King Saul, David and Solomon reigned over Israel.

[GlennO]

Sean -

Are the images in these relevant ?





http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/world/middleeast/14euphrates.html


http://gmap3d.com/?c=iz&UF=-748761&UN=-1069001&DG=STM

[GlennO]

Sean - Are these images of any use? I had no joy trying to find a Google Earth image that works in a forum environment


http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/14/world/middleeast/14euphrates.html

[dave-o]

So if Moab, Edom and Ammon are utterly destroyed before the tribulation, how does that square with this:

Daniel 11:41
He [antichrist?] shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.

[Littlejoe]

So if Moab, Edom and Ammon are utterly destroyed before the tribulation, how does that square with this:

Daniel 11:41
He [antichrist?] shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon.

They can't,Jordan and Israel are two nations the antichrist never has control of.There maybe more nations who he never has control over.But Jordan won't be destroyed as prophecy tells us.