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    Default A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    A Critique Of The Harbinger | GraceThruFaith

    A Critique Of The Harbinger
    A Critique by Jack Kelley

    “The bricks have fallen down, but we will rebuild with hewn stones; the sycamores are cut down, but we will replace them with cedars.” (Isaiah 9:10 NKJV)

    It’s fair to say I was a skeptic when I picked up a copy of The Harbinger, by Jonathan Cahn. I decided to read the book only because I had received several questions about it. But I soon discovered that the author makes a stunning case for a connection between the judgment of the northern Kingdom by the Assyrians in 722 BC and the judgment of America, underway since 9-11.

    The way leaders of both countries responded to a limited judgment with defiance and resolve but no repentance was way beyond coincidence. And by responding with the very same words that Isaiah attributed to Israel (Isaiah 9:10), America’s leaders left no doubt in my mind that the judgments we’ve suffered are warnings from God and they didn’t grasp the meaning of Isaiah’s words even though they repeated them over and over again.

    I was tracking beautifully with the author’s interpretation of our recent history and literally couldn’t put the book down as long as he was comparing Israel’s history with ours.

    Then What Happened?

    “If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land” (2 Chronicles 7:13-14).

    But when he used the above passage to justify his claim that America could experience a different outcome from the Northern Kingdom’s, he lost me. In my mind the book was instantly downgraded to another work of fiction, although with convincing historical and spiritual analysis. I had a hard time getting through the last few chapters, because they were just a human opinion based on an incorrect interpretation of 2 chronicles 7:14. At its end the book had become just as vague and fanciful as it had been precise and direct at the beginning.

    If the author is correct in his assertion that as far as God is concerned political leaders officially speak for their country, then America is not the country of “my people who are called by my name” to whom 2 Chronicles 7:14 is addressed. At a press conference in Turkey in April of 2009 President Obama said that America is not a Christian nation. He was repeating something he’d been saying since 2007. When asked to clarify this he once said, “What I mean is America is not just a Christian nation. We are also a Jewish nation, a Muslim nation, a Buddhist nation, a Hindu nation, and a nation of nonbelievers.”

    That statement doesn’t make sense. A nation may count among its residents people of many faiths, but it can’t be a nation of all of them. Such a nation could only be a nation of no official faith. And that’s what America is, we’re a nation of no official faith. (I sometimes wonder how it makes Christians from other countries feel when American Christians act as if they think America and the Church are one and the same.)

    It’s true there are a lot of Christians in America. But we all belong to the Church and the Church has no national homeland, not in America and not anywhere else. The Church comes from every nation on Earth but our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20) and that’s where our home is. American believers are not called to repent and save our country any more than believers who live in other countries are called to repent and save theirs. No matter what country we live in we’re supposed to be like Abraham, strangers in a foreign land looking forward to the city whose architect and builder is God (Hebr. 11:9-10).

    Israel was a nation officially in a covenant relationship with God whose eternal destiny is to live with Him in the land He gave them here on Earth (Ezekiel 43:7). After King Solomon’s death the nation was divided, both physically and spiritually. The Northern Kingdom didn’t just split from the South, they also split from God. The Levitical Priests were expelled, and the faithful from all of the northern tribes fled to the south with them (2 Chron. 11:16). Only the unbelievers remained in the North. A new priesthood was formed and altars were erected to pagan gods. Failing to win the Northern Kingdom back, the Lord sent the Assyrians to warn them. They refused to heed the warnings and were ultimately conquered.

    Even though our relationship with Him was different from theirs, America officially renounced God just as the Northern Kingdom had. Now God is judging America, and the only way for Americans to escape the coming judgment is to flee with the Church, like the believing Israelites fled with the priests. (To his credit the author did provide a moving set of instructions on how to become part of the Church.)

    Once the Lord takes us home, what’s left of America will be destroyed for failing to heed God’s warnings just as the Northern Kingdom was destroyed. The dual purpose of the Great Tribulation is clearly explained in Jeremiah 30:11. The first is to completely destroy all the nations among which the Jews have been scattered, and the second is to discipline Israel in preparation for the coming Kingdom Age. If you’re looking for a Bible verse that refers to America in the end times, look at the first part of Jeremiah 30:11.

    What About Them?

    Things were different in the Southern Kingdom, even though they were in the process of abandoning God as well. On the Eve of their conquest by the Babylonians 120 years after the Northern Kingdom ceased to exist, God had Jeremiah tell the exiles from the Southern Kingdom:

    “When seventy years are completed for Babylon, I will come to you and fulfill my gracious promise to bring you back to this place. For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. (Jeremiah 29:10-11)

    By no stretch of the imagination can this promise apply to any one but the Jews in exile in Babylon in the 6th century BC. Such a promise was never given to the Northern Kingdom, nor has one been given to America.

    After the 70 years were over, God brought the Jews who were willing to return back to the Promised Land, just like He said He would. But this was not the fulfillment of 2 Chronicles 7:14 either. The 70 year period of the captivity had been predetermined by God and at its end He brought them back like He said. 2 Chronicles 7:14 will be fulfilled when the Jewish leadership invokes the promise of Hosea 6:1-2 and petitions the Lord’s return to save them.

    When Will That Be?

    When Israel’s rejection of Jesus as their Messiah was complete, He finally left them alone. It had been 40 days since He provided the unmistakable sign they had asked for (the sign of Jonah, Matt. 12:39) to prove He was who He claimed to be. 40 being the number of testing, their time of testing had expired and they had failed. In Hosea 5:15 the prophet had Him saying,

    “Then I will go back to my place until they admit their guilt. And they will seek my face; in their misery they will earnestly seek me.”

    When the judgments of the Great Tribulation are at their worst, Israel will officially petition the Lord’s return.

    “Come, let us return to the LORD. He has torn us to pieces but he will heal us; he has injured us but he will bind up our wounds. After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will restore us, that we may live in his presence” (Hosea 6:1-2).

    When they do, the Lord will pour out His Spirit of Grace and Supplication. Their eyes will be opened and they will look upon Him who they have pierced and they will mourn for Him as one mourns for an only child. (Zechariah 12:10). Some scholars have suggested that Isaiah 53 will be their official prayer of confession.

    On the day the Lord returns He will be King of the whole Earth. On that day there will be one Lord and His name the only name (Zech. 14:9). Then Judah will be inhabited forever and Jerusalem through all generations. Their blood guilt which I have not pardoned, I will pardon. The Lord dwells in Zion (Joel 3:20-21). 2 Chronicles 7:14 will finally be fulfilled.

    On three separate occasions just before the Southern Kingdom was conquered by the Babylonians, God told Jeremiah to stop praying for the Jews because He wasn’t listening any more (Jeremiah 7:16, 11:14. 14:11). I believe America may also have reached that point with Him. It’s clear that America’s unbelievers don’t want the Church to save them, and the only believers still fighting for America’s future are the ones who don’t understand what’s ahead for the Church.

    In summary, it’s not the Church’s job to save America. Our job is to store up treasure in Heaven by helping those who can no longer help themselves on Earth. In this way we show forth the light and love of the Lord in this dark and dying place. Selah 01-28-12

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    More On The Harbinger | GraceThruFaith

    More On The Harbinger

    Q. In your article, “A Critique Of The Harbinger” you wrote: “It’s clear that America’s unbelievers don’t want the Church to save them, and the only believers still fighting for America’s future are the ones who don’t understand what’s ahead for the Church.”

    I know you didn’t say that we shouldn’t go vote, but the second part of that sentence is exactly why it seems utterly pointless to participate in any future elections. Should we go through the motions these days by voting? I suppose we should for no other reason than because we don’t need to roll over like whipped dogs and give up. Trouble is that the choices with any chance of winning tend to be between the greater and the lesser of two evils.

    A. No , I’m not saying we shouldn’t vote. Voting is a civic responsibility. What I’m saying is there’s no way Christians can save America, nor are we called to do so. And as you said, even if we were there’s no candidate calling for a national repentance. Besides, let’s think about this for a minute. Repent means to change our mind about something. In the Bible it’s most often used in connection with our need for a Savior. As Christians we we’ve already done that, and since we have, God considers us to be righteous because of our faith (Romans 3:21-22). Our sins have already been forgiven (Colossians 2:13-14).

    Israel was in a relationship with God that required obedience to His Law before He could forgive their sins and heal their land (2 Chronicles 7:14). The work God requires of the Church is to believe in the One He sent (John 6:28-29) so He could take us to be with Him in His Father’s house (John 14:2-3). Certainly our behavior could improve substantially, but belief is the basis of our relationship with the Lord.
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    The Harbinger, Follow Up | GraceThruFaith

    The Harbinger, Follow Up

    Q. I sent a copy of your critique of the Harbinger to the book’s author to see what he had to say about it. His spokesperson said He was interested that you were affected by the book, but that the two of you differ on whether America can return to God. He said his book is a message of hope and repentance for America while you feel repentance is not possible.

    A. The point is not whether America can repent and return to God. The point is that the author misused 2 chronicles 7:14 to hold out a promise that God never made to America or any other nation but Israel. Nor did He make it to the Church. The lesson of the Northern Kingdom’s defeat is when they rejected God and the faithful moved to the Southern Kingdom with the priests (2 Chron. 11:16) the Northern Kingdom became a pagan nation ripe for judgment.

    The same is true today. God’s promise to the Church is to take us to His Father’s house to be with Him where He is (John 14:2-3) so the Church has no land on Earth to heal. And when you take the Church out of America what you have left is another pagan nation ripe for judgment. America is not the Church and the Church is not America.

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Jack makes a great poit. I think that this makes a lot of sense as well:

    It’s true there are a lot of Christians in America. But we all belong to the Church and the Church has no national homeland, not in America and not anywhere else. The Church comes from every nation on Earth but our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20) and that’s where our home is. American believers are not called to repent and save our country any more than believers who live in other countries are called to repent and save theirs. No matter what country we live in we’re supposed to be like Abraham, strangers in a foreign land looking forward to the city whose architect and builder is God (Hebr. 11:9-10).

    Israel was a nation officially in a covenant relationship with God whose eternal destiny is to live with Him in the land He gave them here on Earth
    (Ezekiel 43:7).
    We are exactly as Jack said. America was great because at one time the beliefs and morals professed in the church were the cultural norm. But sadly it is no longer the case. God's promises to bless those who bless Israel is the hinge. America is going down the tubes as fast as this government is turning from God's true covenant people. Can we blame God for making the heavens like stone when the bulk masses of Americans profane His holy name and His land? Always remember God is just. He works in us compelling us through love to do His will. But America is flat out refusing to embrace this love. Can things get worse? Yes. Will they? Yes, if they continue at this break neck pace.

    God bless
    Last edited by mattfivefour; June-9th-2012 at 02:49 AM. Reason: Fixed a bad quote tag
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhen7 View Post
    Jack makes a great poit. I think that this makes a lot of sense as well:

    It’s true there are a lot of Christians in America. But we all belong to the Church and the Church has no national homeland, not in America and not anywhere else. The Church comes from every nation on Earth but our citizenship is in Heaven (Phil. 3:20) and that’s where our home is. American believers are not called to repent and save our country any more than believers who live in other countries are called to repent and save theirs. No matter what country we live in we’re supposed to be like Abraham, strangers in a foreign land looking forward to the city whose architect and builder is God (Hebr. 11:9-10).

    Israel was a nation officially in a covenant relationship with God whose eternal destiny is to live with Him in the land He gave them here on Earth
    (Ezekiel 43:7).
    We are exactly as Jack said. America was great because at one time the beliefs and morals professed in the church were the cultural norm. But sadly it is no longer the case. God's promises to bless those who bless Israel is the hinge. America is going down the tubes as fast as this government is turning from God's true covenant people. Can we blame God for making the heavens like stone when the bulk masses of Americans profane His holy name and His land? Always remember God is just. He works in us compelling us through love to do His will. But America is flat out refusing to embrace this love. Can things get worse? Yes. Will they? Yes, if they continue at this break neck pace.

    God bless
    Nations want to own what they cannot own....the body of CHRIST!
    If you are in Italy,they are convinced that THE HOLY SEAT is ROME....where CHRIST in THE FLESH aka the Pope sits on his throne....I mean,crazy stuff!
    America and Italy or any other nation are not Christian nations....there are in every country born again believers and those saved by grace through faith in Christ alone are His Body and so the church is INVISIBLE so to say,God knows her,but we cannot really pinpoint her because ONLY GOD reads the hearts and knows those who belong to Him,we can fool people but surely we CANNOT fool THE LORD.
    On that DAY we are going to see some surprising stuff indeed!
    Shalom everybody and Love to All that LOVE JESUS!

    P.S.Jack Kelley is SPOT ON! great solid teachings in my modest opinion.
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    I am often in disagreement with Jack Kelly, but this time he has my wholehearted agreement with everything he said! (Sorry if that sounds condescending, I did not mean it to. Please do not interpret it that way. I in no way think I am better of smarter than Jack. We just see things from differing viewpoints. But not today.) He is absolutely correct: Christians cannot save America, or any other country in which they may live. As he says, "In summary, it’s not the Church’s job to save America. Our job is to store up treasure in Heaven by helping those who can no longer help themselves on Earth. In this way we show forth the light and love of the Lord in this dark and dying place." Amen, Jack. Amen.
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Of course Christians cannot save America because America is both an intangible thing and nearly 10 million square miles of varying geographical features.
    The same is true of Christians living in every other nation on this earth. It's not America or any other country on earth that needs salvation; it's their people that do and to the best of my knowledge there is no end date except for the Harpazo on our completing the Great Commission.

    So here is where I disagree with Jack Kelley's interpretation of the Gospels and think that his view is both defeatist (how can any Christian be defeatist when it comes to the Great Commission?) and abjectly lacking in the faith required to save souls for Christ.

    I say this because there is nothing in Jack's words which invoke the truth that Jesus spoke in Matthew 17:14-20 and Luke 17:6-10. It is that kind of faith IN ACTION which saves entire nations of lost souls.

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Osborne View Post
    Of course Christians cannot save America because America is both an intangible thing and nearly 10 million square miles of varying geographical features.
    The same is true of Christians living in every other nation on this earth. It's not America or any other country on earth that needs salvation; it's their people that do and to the best of my knowledge there is no end date except for the Harpazo on our completing the Great Commission.

    So here is where I disagree with Jack Kelley's interpretation of the Gospels and think that his view is both defeatist (how can any Christian be defeatist when it comes to the Great Commission?) and abjectly lacking in the faith required to save souls for Christ.

    I say this because there is nothing in Jack's words which invoke the truth that Jesus spoke in Matthew 17:14-20 and Luke 17:6-10. It is that kind of faith IN ACTION which saves entire nations of lost souls.
    Hello Sean and God bless. I believe the point he was trying to make is that our home is in heaven and not on earth. That there isn't a nation in the world save Israel that had a covenant with God. That Christians are not called to save a nation, that is to the point of it becoming theocratic through its people, because our vested interest is the home above. I do not think that any of us believe that no more souls will be brought into a relationship with Christ, but rather that despite that, the nations are becoming so far from being nations that culturally exist by adhering to Christian moral values. The Scripture is clear that the fullness of the Gentiles will be a defining moment. That point seems to be quickly approaching but it could be several years out. In the meantime Preach, teach, evangelize and make disciples. If we do these things faithfully even though the culture gets blacker all around us it will never be able to drown the light of the gospel.

    I think his last line sums up what he was trying to say:
    In summary, it’s not the Church’s job to save America. Our job is to store up treasure in Heaven by helping those who can no longer help themselves on Earth. In this way we show forth the light and love of the Lord in this dark and dying place. Selah 01-28-12

    I take that to mean evangelism, consecration, sanctification in action and love of the lost. Just my humble opinion.

    Always learning and trying to grow in Christ.

    God Bless
    In Christ,

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    Like the stars forever and ever.
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by mikhen7 View Post
    Hello Sean and God bless. I believe the point he was trying to make is that our home is in heaven and not on earth.
    Hi mikhen7 and God Bless you as well.

    I guess my ACCUTE dislike for what he said boils down to this sentence: (emphasis added)

    "...America officially renounced God just as the Northern Kingdom had. Now God is judging America, and the only way for Americans to escape the coming judgment is to flee with the Church..."
    I believe this is completely erroneous due to the fact that the Bride of Christ is still resident. The truth of this is a no-brainer. This therefore makes his pronouncement defeatist, false and grossly misleading. America HAS NOT renounced God, officially or otherwise. Neither is God currently judging America. These are utterly false statements in my opinion.

    The truth is that judgment of all nations WILL NOT OCCUR until the 70th Week, and the most severe portion of that judgment will not occur until the final 42 months of those 7 years of judgments. Also, up until the Harpazo (Harpazo- ἁρπάζω - to seize, carry off by force) occurs when the Bride of Christ is physically and forcefully TAKEN from this earth by the command of Almighty God the Great Commission of Christ will continue all over this world.

    Secondly, the Bride of Christ within America WILL NOT "flee with the Church", rather as pointed out above, the Bride of Christ throughout the entire world WILL BE SUDDENDLY, PHYSICALLY AND FORCEFULLY TAKEN from this earth. We flee nothing. Fleeing is what fearful cowards do, and we ain't that. We are TAKEN by our LORD to be with Him just as He was by the Father in Revelation 12:5.
    Last edited by Sean Osborne; June-10th-2012 at 07:22 PM. Reason: silly spellin error

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfivefour View Post
    I am often in disagreement with Jack Kelly, but this time he has my wholehearted agreement with everything he said! (Sorry if that sounds condescending, I did not mean it to. Please do not interpret it that way. I in no way think I am better of smarter than Jack. We just see things from differing viewpoints. But not today.) He is absolutely correct: Christians cannot save America, or any other country in which they may live. As he says, "In summary, it’s not the Church’s job to save America. Our job is to store up treasure in Heaven by helping those who can no longer help themselves on Earth. In this way we show forth the light and love of the Lord in this dark and dying place." Amen, Jack. Amen.
    I disagree with Jack Kelly often as well bro, but I do agree with him and you on this. I've said before that our job is to spread the message of the Gospel to the lost while we still have time, rather than "save" the US. The only one who could ever "save" the US is the Lord, and in scripture, He has already declared that all nations will come to an end.

    This is an example of how sin fails: the US turned from the Lord and began to embrace the very things the Lord hates. Now, this nation is reaping the sorrowful harvest of its' own actions.
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Here is an excellent review of The Harbinger from The Berean Call (Dave Hunt/TA McMahon)


    The Harbinger-A Matter of Critical Discernment | thebereancall.org

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    ... in scripture, He has already declared that all nations will come to an end.
    I'm not exactly sure of your precise meaning here, but according to the letter of Scripture this view of yours is quite incorrect. All nations will not come to an end. On the contrary, they will continue well into the Millenium (1000 year) reign of Christ.

    Scripture is quite explicit that during the Millenial Kingdom Jesus will reign supreme over Israel as well as all of the nations of the world... He cannot rule over them if they have previously come to an end as you wrote.

    Isaiah 2:1-4

    The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

    Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
    That the mountain of the Lord’s house
    Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
    And shall be exalted above the hills;
    And all nations shall flow to it.
    Many people shall come and say,
    “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
    To the house of the God of Jacob;
    He will teach us His ways,
    And we shall walk in His paths.”
    For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
    And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
    He shall judge between the nations,
    And rebuke many people
    ;
    They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
    And their spears into pruning hooks;
    Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
    Neither shall they learn war anymore.

    Isaiah 42:1-4 also prophecies that the Gentile nations will continue to exist under His rule and law.

    Your statement is also 100% contrary to the covenant or promise that God made with all of the Gentile nations following the destruction of the Antichrist's rule on the Earth. This covenant or promise to all of the Gentile nations is found in with the vision that came to Daniel and is recorded in Chapter 7, verses 11-14.

    “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

    “I was watching in the night visions,
    And behold, One like the Son of Man,
    Coming with the clouds of heaven!
    He came to the Ancient of Days,
    And they brought Him near before Him.
    Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
    That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
    His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
    Which shall not pass away,
    And His kingdom the one
    Which shall not be destroyed.
    Hope this helps your understanding of future prophetic events.

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Sean is correct..according to the prophecy ,the bible calls them Sheep and Goat nations.........

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    Israel Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Perhaps, a better viewpoint might be that in the Millennial Rule, by Jesus, the nations will be there, but will no longer (or ever again) have 'Self Rule.' If I understand rightly, there will no longer be an Israel, after Great White Throne Judgment, when, as Jesus said, there will no longer be Jew, or Gentile, and worship will have a new Covenant.

    I hope I read rightly where Rev 7:15 says the Church (presumed as the incalculably sized crowd before the Throne, is the Church) will '... serve him day and night in his temple ...' (emphasis mine). We, the Church have a special Covenant, where we will not have the Sun shine upon us again, and so on.

    Hope this contributes.

    Keep the Watch,
    Arley

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Navyblue View Post
    Perhaps, a better viewpoint might be that in the Millennial Rule, by Jesus, the nations will be there, but will no longer (or ever again) have 'Self Rule.' If I understand rightly, there will no longer be an Israel, after Great White Throne Judgment, when, as Jesus said, there will no longer be Jew, or Gentile, and worship will have a new Covenant.

    I hope I read rightly where Rev 7:15 says the Church (presumed as the incalculably sized crowd before the Throne, is the Church) will '... serve him day and night in his temple ...' (emphasis mine). We, the Church have a special Covenant, where we will not have the Sun shine upon us again, and so on.

    Hope this contributes.

    Keep the Watch,
    Arley
    No after armagedoon during the Millennial Rule,that 1,000 years there will be nations ,just that Jesus will be King of the real New world Order.The world will go on as now,their will be so called mayors,work for us to do,living and dying....

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Osborne View Post
    I'm not exactly sure of your precise meaning here, but according to the letter of Scripture this view of yours is quite incorrect. All nations will not come to an end. On the contrary, they will continue well into the Millenium (1000 year) reign of Christ.

    Scripture is quite explicit that during the Millenial Kingdom Jesus will reign supreme over Israel as well as all of the nations of the world... He cannot rule over them if they have previously come to an end as you wrote.

    Isaiah 2:1-4




    Isaiah 42:1-4 also prophecies that the Gentile nations will continue to exist under His rule and law.

    Your statement is also 100% contrary to the covenant or promise that God made with all of the Gentile nations following the destruction of the Antichrist's rule on the Earth. This covenant or promise to all of the Gentile nations is found in with the vision that came to Daniel and is recorded in Chapter 7, verses 11-14.



    Hope this helps your understanding of future prophetic events.

    Jeremiah 30:11:

    "‘For I am with you,’ declares the LORD, ‘to save you; For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you, Only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly And will by no means leave you unpunished. " (NASB)

    Last I checked, the Jews had been scattered across the globe.

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    I don't think Isaiah 42:1-4 necessarily refers to the Millennial reign, but Isaiah 2:1-4 definitely does. So we now need some harmonization between Isaiah 2:1-4 which indicates the nations will continue to exist and Jeremiah 30:11 which indicates they will be completely destroyed (brought to a full end). Anybody got any insight?
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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by mattfivefour View Post
    I don't think Isaiah 42:1-4 necessarily refers to the Millennial reign, but Isaiah 2:1-4 definitely does. So we now need some harmonization between Isaiah 2:1-4 which indicates the nations will continue to exist and Jeremiah 30:11 which indicates they will be completely destroyed (brought to a full end). Anybody got any insight?
    I think THE GENTILE domination will end and Israel will finally be "THE NATION" that The Lord intended to be.....finally...when we come to "finally" it is something ONLY THE LORD can accomplish...we,in our flesh and sinful nature are absolutely useless...BUT THE LORD is PERFECT...what about that?WOW....this harbinger and USA stuff has really tired me now,and btw,Jack is good!

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    excellent insightful things brought to the light in this thread

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    Default Re: A Critique Of The Harbinger - Jack Kelley

    Quote Originally Posted by Robert View Post
    Jeremiah 30:11:

    "‘For I am with you,’ declares the LORD, ‘to save you; For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you, Only I will not destroy you completely. But I will chasten you justly And will by no means leave you unpunished. " (NASB)

    Last I checked, the Jews had been scattered across the globe.
    Robert,

    Your unwarranted and inappropriate sarcasm aside, it's obvious that you have applied this single verse quite significantly out of the proper context of the multiple prophecies found in Jeremiah 30.

    There were two Diasporas of the Jews. Not one.

    The first occurred when Israel (northern kingdom) was taken captive by the Assyrians followed by the captivity of Judah at the hands of the Babylonians. Both Israel and Judah are specifically referred to in this context in verses 3 and 4. These Gentile nations of captivity are the ones being referred to as being destroyed completely. This prophecy has been fufilled.

    Then there was the second and final diaspora at the hands of the Romans 2000 years ago. The text of Jeremiah switches to references of "Jacob" in this context which differentiates from the previous Israel and Judah context. That second captivity and diaspora was more horrific than even the 70th Week will be in the future as unambiguously seen in verse 7. These oppressors are merely punished as seen in verse 20.

    Hope this helps with your increased understanding of Bible prophecy.

    This also solves the nonexistent conundrum (a perceived lack of harmonization in the Word of God) alluded to in Mattfivefour's subsequent post.

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