Thorns in the Flesh

[Chris]

Thorns in the Flesh

Thorns in the Flesh
By Jack Kinsella

The word 'holy' comes from a Greek word that means 'separated' -- in this context, it means 'separated' from the world of sin. In context, Peter and Paul were therefore two of the twelve holiest men who ever lived.

They were Personally 'separated' from the world by Jesus Christ! But neither went on to live a sinless life. Peter fell back into some legalistic Judaic practices and had to be publicly upbraided by Paul. (see Galatians 2: 11-21)

Paul approached the Lord three times, requesting the Lord remove a "thorn in his flesh," a "messenger of Satan sent to buffet me" -- complaining that this infirmity hindered his ability to minister effectively.

Paul wasn't lying when he said he was chief among sinners back then. And I am not lying when I say that I am chief among sinners today. I don't know every sinner. But I am certain that I am the worst sinner that I do know.

Thus it is with each of us, if we are honest. I may know of a Christian who commits more obvious sins than I do -- but I cannot honestly name somebody who sins MORE than I do.

The only sins that I know others commit are the sins I actually see them commit. I am with ME every time.

I am with me when I get cut off in traffic. I am with me when I think bad thoughts. I am with me when I do things I wouldn't do if I was with my pastor.

I am with me when I am uncaring for strangers, unkind to loved ones, unreasonable, unthankful, unholy, disobedient . . . the list goes on.

To be brutally honest, I don't know ANYBODY who sins more than me. (And if you are honest, I suspect you can probably say the same thing about you.)

Peter was called out and separated by Jesus Christ to serve the Gospel. But Jesus did not drop him like a hot rock after Peter said, "I don't know Him."

Jesus called out Paul on the road to Damascus and separated by Jesus Christ to serve the Gospel. He told Paul to stop worrying about his problems with the messenger of Satan.

"And He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness. . ." (2nd Corinthians 12:9)

I was called out and separated by Jesus Christ one winter night in 1975 to serve the Gospel. That is what salvation is all about -- being separated for the Great Commission.

But it isn't YOU that does the separating. It is Jesus Christ. If it is you that is the one doing the separating, then how would you go about it?

The answer would seem to be obvious. You avoid places where sin is going on. You stay away from people that might lead you into sin.

You surround yourself with other like-minded Christians and you separate yourself from the world. That's what Paul said to do. Didn't he?

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." (2nd Corinthians 6:14-15)

But clearly, that seems contradictory. When Jesus was criticized for mingling with sinners, He replied, "It isn't the healthy that need a Physician."

So what is Paul talking about? Paul's letter was addressed to the body of believers at Corinth who had fallen into all kinds of pagan practices.

He was speaking to the Corinthian church's practice of mingling idol worship and depraved parties masquerading as the Lord's Supper with some sins "such are are not even named among the Gentiles."

Individual believers are, by virtue of their salvation, already called out and made separate (holy) and righteous (by imputation). It is accomplished;

"Not by works of righteousness that we have done, but by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (Titus 3:5)

The New Covenant with the Church Age is not a corporate agreement between God and a specific people, but rather is individual relationship between Jesus Christ and just ONE person -- you.

That is why God does NOT punish believers. He chastises them. And God does NOT visit the sins of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. The children have their own accounts to settle. Individually.

"My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of Him: For whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom He receiveth." (Hebrews 12:5-6)

This is a good place to stop and examine the difference between chastisement (chastening) and punishment.

Chastisement is correction -- parents correct their children by chastising them until they fall back into line. The chastisement stops when the behavior is corrected.

Punishment is different. It is retribution -- punishment continues whether the offender changes his ways or not. If you are serving a life sentence, changing your ways is nice, but it has no effect on the sentence.

I don't know about you, but while I loved them all equally, all my children were different. Although the rules were the same, it was necessary to set different boundaries with each one of them.

I had a different way of dealing with the kid who tried a puff off a cigarette (and didn't like it) than I did with the kid who had a pack of butts hidden in his bedroom.

Same rules, same offense. But it was a greater threat to one of them than it was the other and so one of them needed a firmer form of correction than the other.

Is God not as good a parent as you or I?

The Lord doesn't have one set of rules for one Christian and a different set of rules for another. The rules are the same for us all.

"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang ALL the law and the prophets." (Matthew 22:27)

Don't let the enemy steal your victory. Nobody is perfect except God and He made you the way you are for His glory and according to His purpose.

His strength is made perfect in weakness, the Lord told Paul. Paul didn't argue with the Lord and demand that God change Paul into the kind of Christian that Paul thought he ought to be.

Paul didn't get mad at God for his afflictions. Instead, Paul responded this way;

"Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Corinthians 12:9)

So, you think you are weak and ineffective at your calling and unworthy of your salvation? You think you are too big a sinner to be used of God? Then you're just the one He's looking for.

Has He got a job for you!

[mattfivefour]

I agree with Jack. Not to say we should wantonly sin, or be contented in our sin; but that we should not let our failings interfere with what God is doing in us and wants to do with us. If God has called you, He has called you. He does not make mistakes. Look to Him, not at yourself. And remember this— God calls things as they will be, not necessarily as they are. Gideon was hiding in the winepress trying to thresh a little wheat out of sight of the Midianites so that he and his family could eat. And in the midst of this demonstration of his fear of the invaders, the Lord appeared to him and said, "The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour." (Judges 6:12) No, God was not being sarcastic, chiding this fearful, trembling specimen of humanity. God was absolutely serious. He saw Gideon as he would be, not as he was then. God does not judge by what is, but by what shall be. He knows the end from the beginning. "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure." (Isaiah 46:9-10)

We may be weak, we may fail, we may fall, we may stumble, we may at times even halt. But God does not give up on us; God does not revoke His call. If you are truly His —have truly surrendered to Him and accepted Him as your Savior, knowing without a shadow of a doubt that you need a Savior or you are eternally lost, and believing without a doubt that Jesus is who He says He is and had done for you what His Word says He has— then you are indeed His and secure for eternity. The mark of a true Christian is not that he does not fall but that the fall is immediately followed by a fall to the knees— or even the face— before God, confessing the sin and asking for forgiveness. And God promises that He is just and faithful to forgive us that sin. (1 John 1:9)

[TheAprazer]

while I applaud Jack for covering the sin issue and our responses to it, I think and believe that the "thorn in the flesh" is not about an infirmity as so many people have taken root to. Please read My Grace is Sufficient For You | GraceThruFaith

Paul had a "weakness" for being slandered, ridiculed, "talked about/gossip", etc. which was his pride and conceit. Basically it's "hey Lord, I'm proclaiming and doing everything you ask of me, even with weak eyes, so why am I constantly being persecuted?" or "why won't these people shut up and listen?" Well, obviously the answer is in the "messengers of Satan". Most everybody else held Paul in high regards and/or esteem, even with his "infirmity". And remember, he was dealing in large part with Israel and others who previously would not take God at His Word either, which frustrated God too.

Remember Paul in Acts 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." 18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour.

So here you have a person giving a clear "shout out" to who Paul was and he got annoyed with it. Hmmmm, most people would think "Wow, this chick is letting the world know who I am!" but not Paul, he got annoyed, almost as if he was saying, <insert pride here> "hey I don't need you telling people who I am, that's my job".

In a more comical and humorous take, it's like Paul's weakness is that he couldn't stand a "nagging wife", and our Lord says, "don't worry, I got your back on this, just keep being a good husband"

[LivnForChrist]

good article

[mattfivefour]

while I applaud Jack for covering the sin issue and our responses to it, I think and believe that the "thorn in the flesh" is not about an infirmity as so many people have taken root to. Please read My Grace is Sufficient For You | GraceThruFaith

Paul had a "weakness" for being slandered, ridiculed, "talked about/gossip", etc. which was his pride and conceit. Basically it's "hey Lord, I'm proclaiming and doing everything you ask of me, even with weak eyes, so why am I constantly being persecuted?" or "why won't these people shut up and listen?" Well, obviously the answer is in the "messengers of Satan". Most everybody else held Paul in high regards and/or esteem, even with his "infirmity". And remember, he was dealing in large part with Israel and others who previously would not take God at His Word either, which frustrated God too.

Remember Paul in Acts 16:16 As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. 17 She followed Paul and us, crying out, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." 18 And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, "I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her." And it came out that very hour.

So here you have a person giving a clear "shout out" to who Paul was and he got annoyed with it. Hmmmm, most people would think "Wow, this chick is letting the world know who I am!" but not Paul, he got annoyed, almost as if he was saying, <insert pride here> "hey I don't need you telling people who I am, that's my job".

In a more comical and humorous take, it's like Paul's weakness is that he couldn't stand a "nagging wife", and our Lord says, "don't worry, I got your back on this, just keep being a good husband"

Bro, the situation with the slave girl was that a representative of the occult was proclaiming Paul as a servant of Christ. This could not be. It was not a matter of any personal pride. It was soely that Paul could not permit a mingling of Satan and Jesus!

However, that aside —and ignoring your final "illustration" due to the fact that Paul was unmarried and celibate— the point of your response is actually quite valid.

I have shared with a few other pastors the idea that perhaps the "flesh" Paul was speaking of in 2 Corinthians 12:7-10 was not the physical body but that part of the soul that is connected with the "old man". The word "flesh" in 2 Corinthians 12:7 is sarx, the same one used for the soul life, the "old man", the weaker element of human nature— not just the physical flesh. The normal word for the physical body is soma. So perhaps, therefore, the "thorn in the flesh" was not a physical ailment in Paul's body but actually a torment of his mind, a torment of his human nature ... perhaps even some besetting sin that, although he did not give in to it, nonetheless troubled him. After all, to have a sin in thought that attacks you from time to time despite preaching the Word of God is a terrible reminder that despite the power and the magnificence of the things God reveals to you to preach and teach to others, you are still just sinful flesh. The abundance of the revelations given to Moses caused him to begin to consider himself above the people and a partner with God which resulted in an arrogant act and God's displeasure that resulted in him being barred from entering the Promised Land. (Numbers 20:8-13) It is all too easy, when God gives an abundance of revelation to become puffed up; and thereby one's ministry is considerably weakened and the glory diverted from the One who alone is worthy of all glory.

This idea that the "thorn in the flesh" was a persistent, troubling attack of some sinful thought, to me, fits far better with Paul's statement that this "thorn" was given to him "lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations."

Just something to chew on.

[TheAprazer]

while the spirit of divination in fortune telling and making money off of it is a sin and rebellious at heart, I think your overlooking the fact that this girl was doing this "for many days", of which Paul had no problem with at first, it was only when he became "greatly annoyed" by the constant bombardment of this girl that he cast this spirit out, hence the "nagging wife" illustration of which I know Paul was not married, etc. hence the "In a more comical and humorous take, it's like...".

If Paul was so adament about not having Satan and Jesus "mingling", why didn't he cast the "spirit" out immediately? Could it be that at first he thought "cool, a spirit is acknowledging me for who I am" which equals pride and conceit or could it be that it was simply of test of Paul's faith?

let me ask you a question, the spirit(s) in this passage, were they demonic or not?

And Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing beside him on his right hand and on his left; 20 and the LORD said, 'Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?' And one said one thing, and another said another. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, 'I will entice him.' 22 And the LORD said to him, 'By what means?' And he said, 'I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And he said, 'You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.' 23 Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you."

[mattfivefour]

Ignoring that this ignores the main point of my reply above , let me ask you this: How do you reconcile the 1 Kings 22 (also repeated in 2 Chronicles 18) passage you quote with the teaching that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18)?

[TheAprazer]

nope, I asked you first, answer mine and I'll answer yours!

And me asking you that question is not ignoring your reply, it was asked to make you think, the girl was a slave who had a "spirit of divination" that was proclaiming the truth about Paul, the "owners" were the ones making the money off her. Most likely, if the slave girl was an obedient slave then she was only "following orders" in fear of her life. Who's to say that in her heart, she didn't want to help her owners make money. Maybe God, thru Paul, answered a prayer of hers to be rid of that spirit. I know the first question would be "well, why didn't she just ask Paul to cast it out?" Well, if the owners were scaring her to death if she asked any of the disciples/apostles for help, how else would she do it? And notice the owners seized Paul and Silas, the girl wasn't mentioned as complaining or trying to attack Paul or anything.

[mattfivefour]

Ok, my brother ... fair enough. The incident, I submit, had nothing to do with pride. As Jesus suffered long with those who opposed Him, as God suffers long with those who rebel against Him, so the Spirit of God that was in Paul suffered long with this poor woman. She had the opportunity to hear the gospel, over and over for days. But, having demonstrated that the power that held the woman was stronger than she, God prompted Paul to act, thus demonstrating that the power in her was in no way equal to the power that was in him. And she was instantaneously delivered! With this view the focus is on God and His power over the forces of darkness.

In your interpretation the focus is on Paul's "old man", his corrupted nature, and that weakness of the soulish flesh prompting Paul to accomplish God's work in the woman. I prefer to believe that his submission to the Father, his waiting upon the direction of the Holy Spirit, and the consequent manifestation of God's power, is the proper focus here.

[TheAprazer]

Ignoring that this ignores the question I had for you above let me ask you another one, have you ever been on a "mission" from God, have something repeatedly distract you, you put up with it for a while and sometimes think, this can't be from God, it's "evil!", then later, to the point of being "greatly annoyed" because "you" were distracted from the mission, find out that the distraction was meant for you all along. Question is, was Paul loving his neighbor? or exalting himself (inwardly not outwardly) because he was on the way to the place of prayer and wasn't going to let any distraction bother him. Or... how many Christians do you know that have "bypassed" an "annoyance" because it didn't fit into their "the Holy Spirit works on my time, not me on His time" prideful mentality?

And forgive me for not understanding this one but how does the Spirit of God suffer when someone who is literally crying out "These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation." Wouldn't that be more of a cry for help? Shouldn't have Paul thought "wait a minute, there's a clue there somewhere in what she is crying out about"

And your "She had the opportunity to hear the gospel, over and over for days.", doesn't her crying out, albeit in the "spirit of divination", these men who proclaim the way of salvation indicate that she already knew that her salvation was at hand?

I totally understand your view as it gives all the glory to God, which all of Scripture does, but again, with the "thorn in the flesh", Paul was conceited and prideful a time or two.

I can hear the num num num's now!

[mattfivefour]

Sorry, bro, I think that's a reach. Anyway, your turn. How do you reconcile the events recounted in 1 Kings 22 and 2 Chronicles 18 with the teaching of Titus 1:2 and Hebrews 6:18?

[TheAprazer]

@mattfivefour,

sorry for the delay in gettin back to you, but I guess I'll cave and answer yours before you answer mine, even though I did ask first , the answer to yours is quite simple, God didn't lie, it was the spirit who volunteered to "entice" by way of the spirits own choice of lying. Our "father of faith" Abraham also lied, which obviously doesn't make it right, but as with all things, it's the motive of the heart, and so it was with the spirit choice to entice with a lie.

All in all though, I still subscribe to Jack Kelley's view of the "thorns in the flesh" as being a type of persecution, be it verbally or physically.

And in the story of the girl with the "spirit of divination", if taken in context was about Paul and Silas meeting and going to Lydia's house, but it appears to have taken a different road than what they were anticipating. Hmmmm, so what is the message from God that we are supposed to get from a new believer asking an "experienced" man of God to come stay with them and then to have them distracted, dragged, attacked, beaten, and thrown in prison and while there, sing and convert the jailer, then God intervenes with the earthquake, they're released and finally end up at Lydia's. Seems like the original plan was a pretty cut and dry plan if you ask me. Yes it could be said, that God was demonstrating His Power and Authority, but that had pretty much established before Paul was even born and/or converted. People of the day knew God existed and that Jesus had come and gone (and was RISEN!!). Could it be a lesson in humility and bringing about a the true motives of their hearts while in prison perhaps? Remember Agabus the prophet telling Paul not to go to Jerusalem and he still did. As much as Paul was obedient, there were some times when he did things his own way.

I think you pretty much nailed it when you stated "It is all too easy, when God gives an abundance of revelation to become puffed up; and thereby one's ministry is considerably weakened and the glory diverted from the One who alone is worthy of all glory."

So what we have here is two people (and households) converted, one while Paul was free, and the other while in prison on the edge of being free again. Hmmmmm, interesting food there to chew on too! num num num Praise the Lord! num num num!

My reference to the spirit who volunteered to lie was to show that the spirit in the girl, and as so many spirits that we read about, be it demonic or not, all acknowledge who God and Jesus are, and some even acknowledging Paul, which again tells me that Paul knew who and what the spirit in the girl was doing, but chose not to cast out immediately because of a prideful moment of being "exalted" by something other than God, hence the numerous "side roads" to get to Lydia's house with Jesus still being the main focus! Simply amazing!

And one last thought, if you have continued persecution, be it verbally or physcially, and you pray that it go away and it doesn't, then along comes someone "giving you praise" even though you know it's not the "right" praise (ie; from man or spirit), most likely you're gonna want to hear that praise for awhile until you come to your senses. Which is what I think happened here, but as it is written, they prayed and sang hymns!

[mattfivefour]

BTW ... I did answer your question first. Read back, bro. Second, I still disagree with your belief as to why things transpired as recorded, and for the reasons given in my previous post. But that's okay. We can disagree. We're still brothers in Christ.