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Guilty, As charged! Amen.If you were charged with the crime of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Guilty, As charged! Amen.If you were charged with the crime of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Thank you for your welcome Twinklingofaneye and greetings to you also,...
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
But that's the point! You can't focus solely on the details in those 2 books and expect to get it right.
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
America is NOT the little horn, the antichrist is. The area that is specifically the USA is nowhere to be found in prophecy which leads me to believe that we are irrelevant.
Just take a look at our national debt, our own social issues, lack of justice, etc....
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Ahh but I didn't say I have never focused on the whole, in deed I do, the results of my interpretation is one based on the whole. To the extent that there is anything at all correct in my understanding, it is due to the grace of God though, not my mortal mind's efforts on its own.
However the grace I speak of is not something that I can turn on or off, and so it would be less than humble of me to promise you my opinion on each and any part of the bible that you raise in the context of end times prophecy, for it would be beyond me.
Having said that, I can see some merit your point and so I certainly don't claim that my interpretation is the last word, I don't believe that myself, all I can say is that this is my present best understanding.
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Hi YeuEmMaiMai, I accept your present understanding, thank you for offering it.
But do remember that the final Beast is one that is the most powerful authority including military on the planet,..and acts accordingly, so if you can point out some other nation that controls and pushed the USA around, please show me...
Oh and don't fore one moment think that I'm referring to the American citizens when I talk of the Beast, there are of course many who do 'worship' it, but there are many Americans in the forefront of doing God's work in the face of the Beast's hostility at this late time.
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
the little horn is a person who rises to power via supernatural means. They then kill off some of the bigger horns.... The only extent we (the USA) are mention in prophecy is in regards to all nations shall be against Israel.
Right now our form of Government is a road block the little horn from rising to world wide power but this will change as every nation submits to the one world government....
just for reference sake, the tern anti-Christ can be applied to anyone who claims to be the messiah whom is NOT the Lord Jesus Christ Himself but this last guy WILL BE THE ULTIMATE anti-Christ....
Some examples of anti-Christs
David Keresh
Jim Jones
or anyone else claiming to be the Messiah
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Well ok, that's your interpretation, it is different to my understanding as I see the little horn as the ultimate power amongst all the horns/powers of the head of the last Beast, and in Revelation it is represented by the Beast with two horns like a lamb. And yes, it is pushing for a one world government of which it intends to be the Chief Executive.
So far as the form of US form of government is concerned, not only is it not preventing the creation of a one world government, it is the very way it has come this far towards realizing its goal.
Refer to Daniel 2:41-43 “And whereas you sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as you sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas you sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.”
The representation of the final world power as a Kingdom of iron and clay is the same as represented by the Beast with ten horns from which an eleventh little horn arises at the expense of three of the others (Daniel 7:7), and btw the same as the King of the North in chapter Daniel Daniel 11:36-45.
The iron represents the rulers who claimed their royal blood comes from the Divine Heritage, ie. the ten horns, whose actual bloodlines do go back to earlier kingdoms of brass, silver, and gold. But there has been over time a middle class evolve who are not considered royal, even though they were born out of the intermingling with royals, but they do have some genes of the iron rulers.
Democracy is the Kingdom of iron mixed with clay, the 'iron mixed with clay' rulers are elected by the common people by voting. It is through this political system that the little horn has grown to the be the exalted self claimed only super power now on the planet. By imposing this form of government on all of its conquests, it is able to manipulate elections and get who it wants to power. This is how one world government strategy works, the only holdouts I can see in the world that are not yet subjugated are Nth Korea, Syria, Iran, Burma, Zimbabwe, and possibly a few others, with some sitting on the side line like China and Russia.
Btw, it reminds me of a bumpers sticker,..Be kind to America, otherwise we will bring you Democracy! :)
And lastly let it made clear, if someone wants to call this last Beast the anti-Christ, that's fine so long that context is made clear. For yes, there are many people, and organizations, etc, who oppose the spirit of Christ, and can thus be described as anti-Christs, but again the context must be made clear if using it in this manner.
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
The Beast is the last great kingdom aka the revised Roman empire that we see today. The anti-Christ is the little horn
The little horn has a three and a half year reign of terror
Rev. 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth, speaking great things, and blasphemies, and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Daniel 7:20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.
Daniel 7:25 And he shall speake great words against the most high, and shall weare out the Saints of the most high, and thinke to change times, and lawes: and they shall be giuen into his hand, vntill a time and times, & the diuiding of time.
All verses point to the little horn being the anti-Christ
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
If you take the time forty two months literally, then how do you reconcile it with Rev 17:12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast." by taking the one hour literally?
Perhaps you may consider,.. both Daniel and Revelation are expressed in metaphor, simile, allegory, parable, etc., and therefore shouldn't be taken literally. A sort of 'a thousand years is like a day to the Lord, and a day a thousand years'.
But let's not lose sight of the OP, if you want to call the little horn the anti-Christ, and I know you mean it to represent the little horn, then there is no problem. But if you go on and say the little horn is a person, then it becomes difficult to reconcile according to my understanding, unless you are referring to the chief executive position of the power structure represented by the little horn.
But let's not argue about who is right, for I believe we are witnessing the beginning of end time now in the attempt of the Beast to bring about regime change in Syria to establish a subjugated state like recently happened to Libya/Khadafi, and so let us allow the events to unfold in real time and thus the truth will be revealed to whole world.
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Ben D, welcome to RF.
The first beast was the Babylonian Empire under Nebuchadnezzar. Present day Iraq, Western Iran, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia, Turkey, Kuwait, northern Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Israel and Egypt.
The second beast was the Medo-Persian Empire which was larger and more powerful than the Babylonian Empire.
The third beast was the Macedonian-Greek Empire of Alexander the Great which was larger and more powerful than the Medo-Persian Empire.
The four heads represent the four empires of the Diadochi - the Macedonian-Greek generals among whom Alexander's Empire was divided: Casander, Lysimachus, Ptolemy and Seleucus.
The fourth and final beast was (and will be again) the Roman Empire...
If you read Daniel 10 very carefully you will see that each of these "world empires" was empowered by a "prince," a fallen angel, a demon. The final iteration of the Roman Empire will be lead by a king of the fallen angels - Abaddon/Apollyon - The Destroyer.
Administrator
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
So Ben, did you read the articles at these links? What did you think? They show clearly that the little horn is the antichrist, not a country.Thanks Chris, I will avail myself of these resources.
Furthermore the scriptures show that the "little horn" will be a man, not a country or some other extreme idea. Take a look:
Here we see the little horn (antichrist) meeting his ultimate fate which is in the lake of fire. Notice the beast has eyes, a mouth, and a body. This is because the little horn is a man, not a country. A country doesn't have eyes, a mouth, nor a body. The use of "personal pronouns" also hurts your case as well but strengthens the prevailing view. Trying to argue against it is just bad theology.Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn [were] eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld [even] till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:20 And of the ten horns that [were] in his head, and [of] the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even [of] that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [was] more stout than his fellows.
I'm sorry Ben, but this interpretation you have come up with is not accurate. I would suggest that you read the links I provided and learn the truth about what the scriptures are truly saying. The interpretations at the links are the conservative, fundamental, and sound position on the little horn. This other interpretation is just confusing and doesn't make sense, I don't think it is a thread we are going to keep open much longer. I think more study is in order. Good luck.
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
I am confused, your original post goes against everything that the replies have provided for you to learn from. And the book of Revelations is not all metaphoric......it is litterally what is to come.....
the beasts are EMPIRES as outlined by Sean who has a solid understanding of Scripture and he is backed up by some very smart Prohpecy teaches and Scripture. We now have the 4th beast which is the revised Roman empire
The little horn is the anti-Christ
The USA is not in prophecy other than when all nations are against Israel.....
We already know the 4th beast and the only thing left to see is who will be the little horn aka the anti-Christ. We as Christians that are believers now will most likely not know who it is as I am sure we are raptured before then. The people who convert after the rapture will definately know who he is and he will kill a good portion of them.
Btw I would be the first to admit my understanding is limited but even I know what you are saying does not line up correctly with what Scripture says...
Administrator
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
I agree. The scriptures say:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.
Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
The first two Beasts we can agree on, but the third...no
Consider in Revelation, at the time John was writing, 5 of the heads of the seven headed Beast (Which represent the same seven heads of the four separate Beasts of Daniel 7), had been, one was, and one was yet to come!
Now we count that the first two Beasts of Daniel 7, and then the four heads of the third Beast, we get to six. So one of the four heads of the third Beast of Daniel 7 was in power at the time of John (and Jesus), and we know as a fact that it was Rome. So Rome was the one that was at time of Jesus Christ, and there was still one more to come, ie. the fourth Beast of Daniel 7/seventh head of Revelation Beast,..so Rome was one of the four heads of the third Beast of Daniel!
And as I explain, the ten horned last Beast of Daniel 7, which is the same Beast as the seventh head on the Beast of Revelation, came after the Roman Empire. If you read my OP, that is how I've explained it as it can;t be any other way for the reasons I've outlined.
And btw, thank you so much for you welcome Sean, greetings..
Oh and as a newbie, though I would have liked to include the relevant map, but I understand that I can't have links in my posts..
Citizen
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Sorry Brad, but Sean is right he is backed up solidly by Scriptures. He has the beasts defined correctly as indicated by Scripture
Administrator
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Here's the correct interpretation as confirmed by Sean and other posters.
The End Times According To Daniel … Part One, Chapters 2 and 7 | GraceThruFaith
Daniel 7:1-14
Daniel’s Dream of Four Beasts
In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying on his bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.
Daniel said: “In my vision at night I looked, and there before me were the four winds of heaven churning up the great sea. Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea. (Daniel 7:1-3)
The vision in chapter 7 occurred 50 years after Daniel 2. Belshazzar was Nebuchadnezzar’s grandson, and Daniel was now an old man. The four winds of heaven symbolize a sovereign act of God, and the fact that these beasts come up from the sea hints that they represent the wickedness of Gentile Dominion. (Isaiah 57:20-21)
“The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. (Dan. 7:4)
Babylon’s symbol was the winged lion. Being made into a man makes it represent Nebuchadnezzar.
“And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat your fill of flesh!’ (Dan. 7:5)
The bear symbolizes the Medo-Persian coalition. Though Media was the senior partner Persia became the stronger, which is shown by one side being raised above the other. The three ribs are Persia’s three major conquests, Lydia in 546BC, Babylon in 539, and Egypt in 525.
“After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. (Dan. 7:6)
The leopard is Greece. The four wings represent the speed with which Alexander conquered the known world. It took him only 10 years. The four heads are his four generals who took the kingdom upon Alexander’s death and divided it among themselves.
“After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast—terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns. (Dan. 7:7)
This beast is so strange and terrifying to Daniel that it didn’t look like anything he’s seen before. It’s iron teeth recall the legs of iron from Daniel 2:40. Rome was a powerful Empire that brooked no resistance. In the reference to the 10 horns we again jump from history to prophecy, from the ancient Roman Empire to its revival in our times.
“While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully. (Dan. 7:8)
Here’s the origin of one of the anti-Christ’s titles, the Little Horn. Notice that he’s not one of the original 10 horns, but comes from among them. A horn symbolizes power or authority when used symbolically. To me this means that the anti-Christ doesn’t start out as part of the official leadership, but comes from a less significant status outside the centers of power to depose three of the existing leaders and assume their authority. If I’m correct, look for the anti-Christ to burst on the scene suddenly from a previously unimportant segment of the Empire rather than from among its current leaders. (As a merely hypothetical example, look how quickly Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejahd has risen from his former station as the unknown mayor of Tehran to a position of world prominence.)
Daniel saw an angel in the vision who was also observing things. When he asked him about the fourth kingdom and the little horn, he was given this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time. (Daniel 7:23-25)
It’s obviously an End Times reference and includes the 3 ½ year duration of the Great Tribulation during which the Little Horn will gain control of the entire world, taking over from the 10 kings. As Paul later confirmed he will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped. (2 Thes. 2:4) And as Revelation 13:7 tells us he’ll make war against Tribulation believers and overcome them. These clues all point us to the anti-Christ.
Moderator
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Ben, you are flogging a dead horse here. We have examined your thesis and found it wanting. I realize you cannot accept that: you have too much of yourself invested in this. As you said before you have spent a large part of your life studying this and this is what you have come up with. Thus you will believe this above anything anybody else can say. Your perceptions are colored. I was quite prepared to accept your new view when you first presented it ... IF it stood up to scripture. But for me it does not.
There is a reason why the vast majority of respected exegetes since the forming of the United States have not come up with the your hypothesis. And it is because it does not stand up to good exegetical scrutiny. And, as Chris pointed out in his last post: 2 Peter 1:20.
Respectfully, now, enough is enough. You have made your point. Now, please, let's move on to another topic.
Thanks.
Last edited by mattfivefour; February-24th-2012 at 03:23 PM. Reason: Corrected typo in scripture reference from 1 Peter to 2 Peter
-------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a
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Resident
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
I will defer to you on this mattfivefour, and respect your wishes about moving on from this subject.
I realize now that my interpretation is contrary to the understanding of the majority if not all, members here at Rapture Forums and I commend you all for your politeness and tolerance under the circumstances.
But no, I did come here to challenge your faith, I was interested in the discussion in so far as I wondered if my understanding had any credibility with others of serious religious aspirations.
But you know, despite everything, on the most important point of all, you all get full marks for living in the true spirit of Jesus as in 'treating others as you would like to be treated', it is a pleasure to be among such people, and I thank for having me, God Bless.
Moderator
Re: Brief Interpretation of the Beasts of Daniel and Revelation and End Times
Well, Ben, your own responses indicate a real walk with the Lord. It is a pleasure to have you here. We may not agree on everything ... and none of us here—or, I suggest, anywhere else in Christianity—has it ALL 100% together ... but if we believe we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone and what He did at Calvary and realize that even the faith we have is from Him and therefore we can do nothing toward our salvation but accept it ... then we are your brothers and sisters and you are our brother.
I look forward to your contributions in other topics. And I also want to point out something that you likely have already noticed: RF is a form of church fellowship. We not only discuss prophecy, but Christian living in all of its aspects, we encourage one another, exhort, correct where necessary, build one another up in Christ, worship Him, pray for each other, counsel ... in fact we do everything except be able to lay hands on one another or physically hug one another in the Lord! Please feel free to join in anywhere, anytime.
Fyi, some of us go beyond RF and fellowship with each other (after we have gotten to know them online) on the telephone, via Skype, and even meet in person.
God bless you, brother.
-------"You are not your own; you are bought with a price." —1 Corinthians 6:19b-20a
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