charismatic/Pentecostal but also amillennial??

[JoelH]

It seems from what I have found about the UK Christian scene, a large number of charismatic evangelicals (basically evangelicals in the Anglican Church of England) are amillennial, as well as the Apostolic church and other New Church charismatics. From what I see locally here, it is the same scenario: the spirit-filled-tradition Christians are just as likely to be amillennial as Reformed Christians.

is this true in the US as well?

[mattfivefour]

Not in my experience ... but then, there are all sorts of assemblies with unbiblical beliefs around! Too many pastors do not love God's Word, do not know how to break it, but would rather swallow the opinions of man. Too many congregations have Bibles that adorn bookshelves and coffee tables and only get touched to be dusted.

[mikhen7]

All I can speak for is the Midwest and South. The majority of the Baptists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics i have seen are premillenmial. Maybe not Pre-Trib but Pre-Mil.

[Thoughtspaz]

Being a US newbie I can't say for sure. However, from my limited experience I am seeing a general trend towards the Reformed & amil positions.

[daygo]

I think the c/e is amillenium, am trying to find out roughly who thinks what in the church about end times in the uk, not a great deal of success yet.

[Jared Hanley]

There is a prominent Reformed Charismatic here in the United States named Sam Storms who is an Amillennialist. I know a pastor who is "bapticostal" and he is an Amillennialist. But, aside from that, I don't know of too many. The so-called "historic" premillennialist position is gaining traction I think in Pentecostal and Charismatic circles through the influence of the Prophetic Movement (Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson, Rick Joyner, etc.) A lot of people in the Vineyard are historic Premillennialists but the Vineyard claims to be neither Pentecostal nor Charismatic but is still continuationist. They prefer terms like "Third Wave" or "Empowered Evangelical".

[JoelH]

It is interesting to see you guys perspective. Charismatic/premillennial being mostly premillennial and even dispensational appears to be the norm for the US. It is probably still true for a significant proportion in the UK or down under over here - or else the secular media in the UK wouldn't label dispensationalism is a charismatic phenomenon, but my thesis is it is receding fast.

Over here and in the UK the charismatics mingle around. You will see the Anglican charismatic evangelicals (like Holy Trinity Brompton, the church who invented Alpha) influence the New Life church (which in this country is tied with AoG elsewhere), Apostolic church, Elim church, Vineyard church people, and vv. My impression is a large number of charismatics/Pentecostals I have met at New Life church, Apostolic churches, or Pentecostal-influenced Baptist churches, even though they have never heard of and are in no way influenced by Reformed theology (they don't know who C.J. Mahaney from Sovereign Grace Ministries is), are just as amillennial as their Reformed brethrens. Of course the teachings are all over the place on lots of stuff...

At the end of the day, you don't have to be a charismatic/pentecostal to preserve being dispensational or at the very least premillennial. The UK and down under example show the charismatics/Pentecostals are just as likely to be amillennial, while the US and Asia shows a large number of non-charismatics could be dispensational.

[Thoughtspaz]

Certainly, at an academic level, there's a strong move towards Reformed & Amil. These people are reacting to dispensational thought and I think one of the primary motives is the defense of replacement theology. You can see it in the books being published which address Israel, Zionism and side issues such as the rapture. I know a few academic dispies who've who noted this trend. There has even been a conference discussing this phenomenon.

[nails in his hands]

So many things too get us to take our eyes off from Jesus & the cross,, Things seprate the body of christ ,

[mattfivefour]

My thoughts, exactly, nails. We Christians spend too much time, sometimes, on the things that separate and not enough on the one thing that binds— Jesus Christ. If we clung to Christ more tightly than we do to our intellectual ideas, we would find a lot of the error just dropping off like old, rotten clothes.

[Jared Hanley]

My thoughts, exactly, nails. We Christians spend too much time, sometimes, on the things that separate and not enough on the one thing that binds— Jesus Christ. If we clung to Christ more tightly than we do to our intellectual ideas, we would find a lot of the error just dropping off like old, rotten clothes.

A number of leading Dispensationalists in the US are cessationists. This would include John MacArthur and Erwin Lutzer.

John Piper says that most of the "Young, Restless, Reformed" crowd is not Dispensationalist. I don't think that's a fair assessment though. One of the most influential Reformed conferences among young people is the Passion conference. In fact, it was through the Passion conference that I was introduced to the doctrines of grace. Piper is a part of that conference as well. As far as I can tell, Beth Moore, Francis Chan, and Andy Stanley, all of whom are featured speakers at the conference, are soteriologically Reformed, Charismatic, Pre-Mil, Pre-Trib, Dispensationalists.

This is also the position of Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. Although to my knowledge, these schools are cessationist.

[mattfivefour]

I understand what you are saying, Jared; but again we have our eyes on man and not on God. Does it really matter what these people are saying UNLESS they are speaking against God's Word in a manner that will prevent the salvation of some and make shipwreck the salvation of others? That is my fulcrum. Unless they do one or both of those things, then I am not going to concern myself with what man says. I am only concerned with what God says: specifically what He says directly to ME in His Word ... and thus I must be concerned only that what He says then becomes real in my life ... walked out every day ... walked out in every way. Until that happens, I have neither time nor business concerning myself with the words of men. I am responsible for the light I have been given. I must walk in that, as must all men walk in the light God has given them. And as we mature in Christ, it is God's expressed purpose in His Word that we should all come to the unity of faith and to the full measure of the nature of Christ. I believe that the unity of faith comes not from our intellectual apprehensions but our heart obedience, not from what we know with our minds but what we strive for with our hearts ... and that, therefore, it is the product of the degree of our measure of the fullness of Christ. I would rather Christians focused on Christ and surrendering daily to Him, daily denying themselves, daily offering themselves up to die to self, than to run from teacher to teacher, position to position, doctrine to doctrine, fighting for one, contending against another.

Sorry, these are just thoughts pouring from my mind as I write. But I really think that our focus and our goal must be to be like Christ ... which comes ONLY as the Holy Spirit has our willingness and obedience to permit Him to work in us. When He alone becomes our focus, everything else—right living, right believing, right witnessing, right compassion, right sharing, right everything—will naturally flow out of that. Everything else is a distraction. And Satan loves to use those things outside of Christ alone and Him crucified to keep us distracted, and in bondage to the world's beggarly elements, thus preventing the power of God to be manifest in His Church.

[Kenny64]

I understand what you are saying, Jared; but again we have our eyes on man and not on God. Does it really matter what these people are saying UNLESS they are speaking against God's Word in a manner that will prevent the salvation of some and make shipwreck the salvation of others? That is my fulcrum. Unless they do one or both of those things, then I am not going to concern myself with what man says. I am only concerned with what God says: specifically what He says directly to ME in His Word ... and thus I must be concerned only that what He says then becomes real in my life ... walked out every day ... walked out in every way. Until that happens, I have neither time nor business concerning myself with the words of men. I am responsible for the light I have been given. I must walk in that, as must all men walk in the light God has given them. And as we mature in Christ, it is God's expressed purpose in His Word that we should all come to the unity of faith and to the full measure of the nature of Christ. I believe that the unity of faith comes not from our intellectual apprehensions but our heart obedience, not from what we know with our minds but what we strive for with our hearts ... and that, therefore, it is the product of the degree of our measure of the fullness of Christ. I would rather Christians focused on Christ and surrendering daily to Him, daily denying themselves, daily offering themselves up to die to self, than to run from teacher to teacher, position to position, doctrine to doctrine, fighting for one, contending against another.

Sorry, these are just thoughts pouring from my mind as I write. But I really think that our focus and our goal must be to be like Christ ... which comes ONLY as the Holy Spirit has our willingness and obedience to permit Him to work in us. When He alone becomes our focus, everything else—right living, right believing, right witnessing, right compassion, right sharing, right everything—will naturally flow out of that. Everything else is a distraction. And Satan loves to use those things outside of Christ alone and Him crucified to keep us distracted, and in bondage to the world's beggarly elements, thus preventing the power of God to be manifest in His Church.

Proverbs 9:10

[JoelH]

I would not deny that what we have in common in Christ is larger than what separates us. But the sword cuts both ways.

Why should we separate ourselves from Michael Horton or Sam Waldron (who are unasahmedly amillennial and Covenant Theology) using this logic? They proclaim the same cross of Christ, the same gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in the loudest way, and they are also the fiercest critics of churches that do not teach the whole counsel of truth. - Although, here's the catch, what constitutes the whole counsel of God will differ a lot between Horton and 99% on this board.

At the end of the day, the assertion "Does it really matter what these people are saying UNLESS they are speaking against God's Word in a manner that will prevent the salvation of some and make shipwreck the salvation of others?" is a doctrine by itself. And as we love Christ with both our hearts and minds, the doctrines will not simply go away. My experience in what people says about the nature of Jesus in a non-specific moderate Calvinist non-denominational church differs a lot from what I heard in the following church that I attended regularly (a Pentecostal-leaning Willow Creek-wannabe Baptist church), but is fairly similar to the church after that Baptist church one (a Reformed-leaning evangelical low Anglican church)

This means doctrine is unavoidable. The Bible does tell us we cannot be stuck forever in milk, we have to have meat at some stage.

[mattfivefour]

Yes, but are these people directly involved with your life and your ministry at this point? If they are not, then what does it matter? If we focus exclusively on Christ and those whom He puts in our path or to whom He leads us, then it really does not matter what Horton or anybody else says, surely? I have not separated myself from them: I do not know them. They are, at this time, irrelevant to my life and ministry. Perhaps if I were in proximity to them and thus the issue of whether to fellowship or work with them were relevant, then I would have to deal with that. But these—to me—academic arguments are vain and serve only to stir the flesh. Respectfully, those in the church who like to focus on these things are functioning more in the flesh than in the Spirit. Make Christ the only focus and all of these other things drop away. And then if we are ever in a position where relating to, or working with, one of these people becomes a necessary matter then the Holy Spirit at that time will make clear whether to do so or not. Until then, we are wasting precious time and energy.

[Jared Hanley]

By the way, I have Michael Horton's Systematic Theology and I have enjoyed reading it.

I disagree with him at several points but I still appreciate much of what he says. One stereotype of Amillennialist covenant theologians is that they are replacement theologians. Mike Horton breaks that stereotype. He seems to be very pro-Israel judging by what he says in his systheo. I also appreciate his emphasis on story. Too often systematic theologies miss the big picture. They miss the narrative of the Gospel. There is a story that God is telling and we are getting caught up in that story.

I don't want to get too far off topic though. So, I'll leave it at that.

[FaithInChrist]

All I can speak for is the Midwest and South. The majority of the Baptists, Pentecostals, and Charismatics i have seen are premillenmial. Maybe not Pre-Trib but Pre-Mil.

All the pentacostal/assemblies of God members I know are premillennial. Some are pre-trib, some are mid-trib and some are pre-wrath.

I believe pre-T and pre-M

[JoelH]

Not wanting to bump this thread, but I have seen on the net up front 3-4 local (Christchurch, New Zealand) Christians who are Pentecostal/charismatic and go to major Pentecostal/charismatic Baptist church or Vineyard church bash Israel as a nation who had "stolen Palestinians' homelands" and Jews are murderers of Palestinians etc. They also support the anti-Israel film "With God On Our Side".

Note: they are Pentecostals/charismatics, not Reformed Calvinists!

NB: If you know the scene locally in Christchurch, Spreydon Baptist and Grace Vineyard are the two churches I was referring to.

[BuzzardHut]

It seems from what I have found about the UK Christian scene, a large number of charismatic evangelicals (basically evangelicals in the Anglican Church of England) are amillennial, as well as the Apostolic church and other New Church charismatics. From what I see locally here, it is the same scenario: the spirit-filled-tradition Christians are just as likely to be amillennial as Reformed Christians.

is this true in the US as well?

Liturgicals have to be Amill, if they take scripture literally their man made pet doctrines are ripped apart by God's Word.

Not wanting to bump this thread, but I have seen on the net up front 3-4 local (Christchurch, New Zealand) Christians who are Pentecostal/charismatic and go to major Pentecostal/charismatic Baptist church or Vineyard church bash Israel as a nation who had "stolen Palestinians' homelands" and Jews are murderers of Palestinians etc. They also support the anti-Israel film "With God On Our Side".

Note: they are Pentecostals/charismatics, not Reformed Calvinists!

NB: If you know the scene locally in Christchurch, Spreydon Baptist and Grace Vineyard are the two churches I was referring to.

They obviously want to be the chosen people alone and replace Israel; these groups are self-appointed and write their own personal beliefs as they go along their own self-important paths. They place personal experience over concrete scripture otherwise the sword of the Lord would rip their pet doctrines to shreds; thus they allegorize scripture and find no value in Israel.

[mikhen7]

Liturgicals have to be Amill, if they take scripture literally their man made pet doctrines are ripped apart by God's Word.


They obviously want to be the chosen people alone and replace Israel; these groups are self-appointed and write their own personal beliefs as they gone along their own self-important paths. They place personal experience over concrete scripture otherwise the sword of the Lord would rip their pet doctrines to shreds; thus they allegorize scripture and find no value in Israel.

There is is subtle or not so subtle tie to this event witht his thread as well. The Mainline Protestant Churches and Israel

God Bless