Mitt Romney and Mormonism: Chat With a Mormon

[Chris]

Mitt Romney and Mormonism: Chat With a Mormon

Mitt Romney and Mormonism: Chat With a Mormon
By Dr. David Reagan

What do Mormons truly teach concerning Satan, eternity and the cross?

I, along with Nathan Jones, had the pleasure of asking this question of James Walker, President of the ministry Watchman Fellowship based in Arlington, Texas. James is a former fourth generation Mormon who found the Lord Jesus Christ and since then has dedicated his life in trying to lead people out of the spiritual darkness of the cults. Experts on cults and false religions, his ministry has indexed nearly 1,200 religious organizations, cults, occultic groups, and controversial doctrinal practices to aid people in spiritual discernment.

Chat With a Mormon

Dr. Reagan: Nathan, you had an interesting online chat recently with a Mormon. Tell us all about it.

Nathan Jones: Certainly. We get emails everyday from people with questions. A gentleman wrote in and asked us what document of the Mormons teaches that Satan is spirit brothers with Jesus. It's a famous question Mike Huckabee once posed. Anyway, I went online to look for an answer and went to mormon.org. There's tons of literature on their site.

Dr. Reagan: So, this is an official website of the Mormon Church?

Nathan Jones: Yes, their official site is Mormon.org. The site even has a spot where you can just talk to a Mormon and ask him questions. They have online missionaries you can talk to. I thought I'd save time and just ask a guy.

The Mormon evangelist the site hooked me up with was very helpful and very friendly. Through chat I asked him what document of the Mormons teaches that Satan is the spirit brothers of Jesus. He went off for a bit to do the research and he came back. I expected he'd give me an answer from The Book of Mormon or The Pearl of Great Price, but instead he gave me Acts 17:29. "Therefore since we are God's offspring…" The verse starts off like that. I pressed him on that to learn exactly what does that mean. He answered that God's no respecter of persons, so in that sense we're all equal.

Dr. Reagan: We're equal to God!?!

Nathan Jones: Yes, he said we're equal.

Not only is Jesus and Satan brothers, but we're brothers with Jesus and Satan as well. Since that was such an interesting claim, I wanted him to elaborate on that. He gave me another point about becoming our own god. He says God wants the same for all of us, so he came up with a plan for us all to have every opportunity to be like him. "Be like God?" I asked. "Can we be like God?" He said, "Yes, sir! We have all the potential to be like God." So I asked, "In what ways?" He answered that we can be like God in every way. Every way we can be like God. Can you believe that?

In our conversation I asked this online Mormon missionary about salvation. What did Jesus provide that allows me to become like God? He says we could choose to either follow Satan in unhappiness, or follow God in happiness. "What exactly does that mean?" I had to ask. "Does Jesus offer happiness which leads us to become like God, and Satan gives us unhappiness which keeps us from becoming like God?" He told me that if I embrace Jesus' happiness I will become like God. He also said there are some other things I'd have to do to become like God, like following the Ten Commandments, as well as listening and following the Mormon modern day prophets.

Dr. Reagan: Oh, so they're adding more and more and more as they go along onto salvation?

Nathan Jones: Yes. It really took only five minutes to see how different the Mormon beliefs are from the Christian beliefs.

Mormonism Believes Jesus and Satan are Spirit Brothers

Nathan Jones: I made a comment about what I thought of Satan, and he responded that God told us not to judge anyone lest we be judged in the same manner. Doing so helped him keep bitter thoughts out of his mind. See, he's always happier when he keeps bitter thoughts out.

I next asked the online Mormon missionary what's going to happen to Satan. He answered that God is a merciful father and because of that he just didn't know. He didn't have anything definite to say about Satan or know of what kind of judgment he might some day receive. That's the big question we left our conversation with. We wound down after that.

James, what do the Mormons believe about Satan and if he'll receive any judgment?

James Walker: Well, let me say, first of all, that online missionary on Mormon.org was far more forthright than what I've seen coming out even from the Mormon response to Fox News' "21 Questions about Mormonism." I think he was being pretty honest with you about what Mormons believe.

To answer your question, you have to understand that everything to Mormons revolves around our heavenly parents. In Mormonism, you have a Heavenly Father and a Heavenly Mother who have had billions of sons and daughters. Jesus is one of them. I'm one of them. You're one of them. So is Lucifer. That was the famous Mike Huckabee question, "Do the Mormons teach that Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers?" The answer is yes, but they'll claim we're all brothers and sisters with these same heavenly parents. I appreciate that the online Mormon missionary was being honest with you concerning Satan and being a little bit more forthright than I've seen in other venues as of late on the theology and doctrines of the Mormon Church.

Dr. Reagan: Think of what this does to Jesus Christ, to His divinity and all, when we start equating ourselves with Him.

James Walker: You have to take one step back. You need to realize Mormons teach that gods, angels and humans are all the same species in various forms. Just like you have a caterpillar that becomes a butterfly, a normal Mormon statement would claim humans are God in embryo. We have the potential to become just like our heavenly parents. Well, that destroys the Divinity and Deity of Christ because it just makes Jesus our elder brother. It makes Him instead of the God of the universe to be a latter day god, and one of billions of other gods and goddesses.

Mormonism Believes the Levels of Eternity

Dr. Reagan: What is the significance of becoming a Temple Mormon?

James Walker: Well, full salvation to becoming a god, called Celestial Exaltation, requires that you go through the Temple ceremony.

Dr. Reagan: What percentage of Mormons do that?

James Walker: Very few, probably less than 20% of adult Mormons have reached the bar of being able to qualify to go inside a Temple.

Dr. Reagan: Does that end up with Mormons being put in different categories eternally?

James Walker: Yes, in Mormonism there are actually three heavens. You have the bottom heaven which is reserved for wicked people who don't believe in God like the Atheists. Even murderers can go to what they call the Telestial Kingdom which is the bottom heaven.

The middle heaven is reserved for religious people who were not Mormons. They were not obedient to the full light, but they were a good Buddhist or a good Methodist, so they go to the middle heaven.

The top heaven is called the Celestial Kingdom and it is reserved for Latter-day Saints only. It's the highest of that kingdom this third degree, and is reserved only for married Mormons who both the husband and wife were both obedient to the Mormon gospel. That is the Celestial Kingdom which is the bridge or gateway to becoming a god yourself.

Dr. Reagan: The highest level would be for those who were Temple Mormons?

James Walker: Yes, but there's a loop hole. If for some reason you weren't able to do the Temple ceremonies in this life, then they can be done for you by the living. Living Mormons can go through not just the baptism, but also all the Temple rituals for and on behalf of the dead people.

Mormonism's Disdain for the Cross

Dr. Reagan: When you get to that highest Temple level and you are baptized at the Temple, is information revealed to you about Mormonism that you didn't know before?

James Walker: Some. You do learn things in the Temple, or I would say you learn more in preparing to go into the Temple. The Temple preparation manuals is where the Church is the most clear about your becoming a god yourself. They teach about our heavenly parents and that God and his wife were once human before they advanced to becoming gods. A lot of that teaching you don't get clearly at the regular Mormon church service. You only get it as you're preparing for this important step and receive the Temple preparation manuals.

Dr. Reagan: The late Dr. Ron Carlson at one time shared about when he was going to the dedication of a Mormon Temple in the Philippines. He said that he was standing outside handing out Gospel brochures and one of the Temple elders came out and told him to leave. He asked the Temple elder if he could explain something. "Why is it you don't have a cross on this Temple?" He answered that the cross is offensive. Dr. Carlson pointed out that the Bible in 1 Corinthians 1:18 says the cross is offensive to those who are lost.

James Walker: Yes, when I was a Mormon I was taught never to wear a cross. There's never a cross on any Mormon Temple or any Mormon Church building. The saying I was told as a Latter-day Saint was, "If your brother was killed with a knife, would you want to wear a knife around your neck? And so, why would you want to put a knife up on your church?" I've heard that said many times, that the cross is a symbol and its just foolishness. Of course, the Bible does say the preaching of the cross is to them that are perishing is foolishness.

What I didn't understand the whole time I was a Latter-day Saint is that the cross is the crux and focus of our entire atonement. It's what Christ did on the cross that's all that matters, not what He did at the Garden of Gethsemane as the Latter-day Saints believe. What Jesus did on the cross in dying in my place for my sins, there is my true salvation.

An Invitation to Mormons

Dr. Reagan: If you could speak to any Mormon right now, what would you say?

James Walker: If you're you're a Latter-day Saint, let me say as you are now, I once was. And, as I am, you may become.

I want to share with you that there's a personal relationship with Jesus Christ that is by grace through faith alone. The real Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible. I would invite you to trust that Jesus and Him alone right now, and not in obedience to laws and ordinances, but what Christ did for you on the cross. There is your salvation. I invite you to take that step right now.

[arapahoepark]

The part that I did not know what the last part, and it's by far the creepiest.....not acknowledging his sacrifice? And I thought some, some mormons who really trusted Christ alone for salvation could actually be Christians (the way we believe in a sense and not really know much about other mormon doctrines and still be in the church). This has proved me wrong........I am humbled

^Now I was not saying that there are Christians in every religion, but I hope you get what I mean, you could go to a dead Church like catholics and be Christian/born again...I hope you understand what I mean (though not sure why some wouldn't leave after finding some stuff out...if the church(es) haven't oppressed the info).

[Elijah's Mantle]

yep that part Got me too

I was to through when I heard David tell the story about the missionary that ask the Mormon """Now why ? don't you have a cross"?

It answered everything for me about Mormons

the cross is an offense to the Mormons

Walker put everything in clear perspective regarding Romney and his really vague rhetoric about Jesus

Mitt Romney is not even remotely a Christian as we are
neither would he understand Grace through Faith either

Walker hit the nail on the head when he said folks have got to be really careful about terminology and definition with people just making reference to Jesus Christ

I personally know what the scripture has to say about those who consider the cross an offense

people who have that man made up Jesus through man Religion not of God the Gospel is of no effect and foolishness to them sad but true there is a whole lot of those folks yet they make reference to themselves as Christian
(Not)

I wonder if they ever consider the words ?
"depart from me I never knew you "

[mattfivefour]

Nah, Mitt Romney is not even remotely Christian. I don't even know why people still debate the point. But that has little to do with the leadership of the United States. At least it hasn't in the past, at times. John Adams was Unitarian, as was his son John Quincy Adams. Jefferson was a religious humanist and universalist. Fillmore was a Unitarian as was Taft. Lincoln espoused no Christian creed and is remembered by his best friends as a deist. I am reading Grant's papers and he seems to be an agnostic, or perhaps even theist of sorts. It is reported by a Methodist minister that he converted to Christ on his death bed. Andrew Johnson and R.B. Hayes in their writings stated that they subscribed to no particular church. Obama says he is a Christian but his actioons and words say different. In fact that could be said of a few presidents. So what difference does it make if Romney is not one?

Philosophically Romney espouses the American Dream-- that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that if they are willing to work they can achieve the dream. Therefore, he says, the role of government is to keep the way open for people to work. That certainly is preferable to a president who believes that the American Dream is only available to the rich and therefore government must force those who work to support those who do not want to. Obama believes that the Dream should be there just for the taking and government will make sure you can take it from someone. Romney's appears to be the opposite. So surely that is the issue the choice of candidate should turn on, not whether he or she is a Christian.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Thats about the way they think and act accordingly with

but the American dream is turning more into a nightmare
the further they turn their back on God
the debt ceiling alone is enough to scare anyone to death

we have something Money cant buy though

If we Christians get Raptured out of here I bet those Mormons will insist we left it for them to colonize with

[livin_in_the_Son]

Nah, Mitt Romney is not even remotely Christian. I don't even know why people still debate the point. But that has little to do with the leadership of the United States. At least it hasn't in the past, at times. John Adams was Unitarian, as was his son John Quincy Adams. Jefferson was a religious humanist and universalist. Fillmore was a Unitarian as was Taft. Lincoln espoused no Christian creed and is remembered by his best friends as a deist. I am reading Grant's papers and he seems to be an agnostic, or perhaps even theist of sorts. It is reported by a Methodist minister that he converted to Christ on his death bed. Andrew Johnson and R.B. Hayes in their writings stated that they subscribed to no particular church. Obama says he is a Christian but his actioons and words say different. In fact that could be said of a few presidents. So what difference does it make if Romney is not one?

Philosophically Romney espouses the American Dream-- that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that if they are willing to work they can achieve the dream. Therefore, he says, the role of government is to keep the way open for people to work. That certainly is preferable to a president who believes that the American Dream is only available to the rich and therefore government must force those who work to support those who do not want to. Obama believes that the Dream should be there just for the taking and government will make sure you can take it from someone. Romney's appears to be the opposite. So surely that is the issue the choice of candidate should turn on, not whether he or she is a Christian.

Good point. I fear that too many will choose NOT to vote for a mormon, because of religious reasons, that Obama will once again win simply by default. Vote your conscience, and prayerfully consider all the candidates, but remember that this country needs a true leader, regardless of magic underwear. Shoot, Reagan sought the advice of a psychic, it didn't make him a bad president. my

[Rescued by the Cross]

What causes my deepest concerns is the issue of a Mormon considering themselves equal to God. The other Presidents mentioned (based upon history available to us) did not appear to be Christians, but I doubt we have ever had a president who had a belief that they were on a path to being equal to God.

In the very purest sense this belief is exactly what led to the fall of Satan. To actually believe that you will be elevated to a position of godship and given your own world to populate and rule over among many other gods is a really radical departure from most any other belief systems out there.

This story could be further developed with the position that the "prophet" of the Mormon church occupies to their membership. Considering what they believe about the "prophet" and his role within their congregation, the influence within a mormon presidency is of concern.

Mormons have had a strong fixation on accumulating ancestral records on Americans. To top it all off, the purported "white horse prophecy" is another issue to be understood.

If our choice is the current president or Romney, I firmly believe America will be under the darkest clouds which we can imagine.

[Elijah's Mantle]

Good point. I fear that too many will choose NOT to vote for a mormon, because of religious reasons, that Obama will once again win simply by default. Vote your conscience, and prayerfully consider all the candidates, but remember that this country needs a true leader, regardless of magic underwear. Shoot, Reagan sought the advice of a psychic, it didn't make him a bad president. my

speaking of Psychics I saw another celeb doing that same thing
Dr Phil . He makes claim of being of the Christian faith

I found myself yelling at the TV
what are you thinking

why would any born again Christian with the indwelling Holy spirit residing with them have the need to consult a Psychic ?

Imbecile-ism

If Obama wins by default and gets it again
folks were about finished off

the man needs Impeached
seriously
especially with his latest maneuvers
(secret meetings with the enemy)

[Elijah's Mantle]

something to consider rescued by the cross (love that name)

I could see Mormons endorsing Global sustainable development along with Agenda 21's and a whole plethora of communist type control-isms over the people . I could also see how possible it would be for a Mormon to endorse Islam in varying mannerisms .

I think our choices stinketh

I vote for God
the only vote worthwhile

Ive sensed of lately a real urgency
I sincerely do not think we will have to endure here a lot longer

[Rescued by the Cross]

We need to earnestly pray that our Nation will turn from our current path and seek God's forgiveness as a Nation. If this hope remains, then God may yet raise up a leader for this time and hold back judgement.

When I hear Christians talk about accepting leadership like the current president or a Romney type of choice, I can't help but think of the original giving of Saul as the first human king of Israel. We hear about eloquent speaking with candidates, "gravitas", and a myriad of other purportedly desirable descriptors for our leaders. Funny how Saul met these descriptors but failed miserably due to the disconnect from the only real power and answers to lead any nation. The Israelite requests for God to give them a king certainly sounds familiar to the calls we hear today regarding candidates.

The issue on mormonism will not be tried solely in the discussions among Christians, the willing media accomplices to the current powers will use this to ensure that Romney is completely unelectable. An associated publication to the Washington Post already has floated trial balloons earlier and they will grow in number of he is the nominee:

Is Mormonism a cult? Who cares? It’s their weird and sinister beliefs we should be worried about. - Slate Magazine

[YeuEmMaiMai]

This election is pretty much a no win situation IMHO as without a God-fearing leader, our country will descend even faster.....

[paul&katie]

ok ignore the Ron Paul add at the end.

[Rescued by the Cross]

Yet another example of the proxies who will serve to open up significant discussions on mormon beliefs:

The Mormon Plan for America and The Rise of Mitt Romney

I was unaware that the Mormon church had a blood oath against this Nation for much of its' existence. While it has purportedly been removed from their rituals, the generational teachings of this oath would extend to the leadership of their congregation to this day. This is but one of the oaths:

You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray and never cease to importune high heaven to AVENGE THE BLOOD OF THE PROPHETS (Joseph and Hiram Smith) ON THIS NATION, and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generation.

Anyone who bought into the most electable concept on Romney will be deeply disappointed as this train moves forward. The one positive to this will be that light will be shined on a false belief system following a period when so many individuals professing to follow Christ have allowed mormonism to try and position itself as another Christian faith.

Mormonism is actually closer to BaHa'i and Sikhism as variants out of the Islamic faith than it is to Christianity.