The Antichrist and the beast

[douggg]

It is real simple if you keep things in this perspective.

Antichrist - an end times man, who will be a false King Messiah, i.e. a false version of prophesied great king of Israel.

The beast - an ancient person who was a arch enemy to God and who lead the world in rebellion against God.

The Antichrist, as a false version of the prophesied great king of Israel, his time is during the first half of the seven years. He will emerge out of the EU, among ten kings. He will not be thought of as King Messiah at that point.

When Gog/Magog threatens Israel, he will mobilize the EU forces to stop them. Gog/Magog moves before he arrives in Israel, and God supernatural destroys Gog/Magog. When the Antichrist arrives in Israel with his EU force, he will be welcomed in the euphoria as King Messiah. He then oversees the reading of Moses commemorative instructions to possess the land to the nation of Israel, starting the 7 years.

Near the middle part of the 7 years, he sells out to Satan, who will enter him. The deal made is that he will be worshiped as God. And the Antichrist goes into the temple and declares that he is God. That ends all illusions that he is the true promised King Messiah of Israel. It will expose him as the man of sin. He will be mortally wounded and goes into hell. God, in His disdain for him, has him kicked out of the grave, and hell. Now we get to the beast.

The beast, on the other hand, is never under any pretense anything but an enemy to God. He lived long ago. He could be considered the Assyrian. He is the Adolph Hitler type character. He will be charismatic in that way. Who can make war against the beast? He is associated with Babylon. Being called the beast, he probably is not purely human. And being in the bottomless pit, he has been separated from his body. In the pit, he is a spirit.

When the Antichrist is booted out of the grave and hell, his desire to be God has not waned. The beast as a spirit will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit and possess him, giving the former Antichrist great power. The Antichrist beast will have the Hitler-like personality of Nimrod with the drive to be worshiped as God.

Doug

[Robert]

It is real simple if you keep things in this perspective.

Antichrist - an end times man, who will be a false King Messiah, i.e. a false version of prophesied great king of Israel.

The beast - an ancient person who was a arch enemy to God and who lead the world in rebellion against God.

The Antichrist, as a false version of the prophesied great king of Israel, his time is during the first half of the seven years. He will emerge out of the EU, among ten kings. He will not be thought of as King Messiah at that point.

When Gog/Magog threatens Israel, he will mobilize the EU forces to stop them. Gog/Magog moves before he arrives in Israel, and God supernatural destroys Gog/Magog. When the Antichrist arrives in Israel with his EU force, he will be welcomed in the euphoria as King Messiah. He then oversees the reading of Moses commemorative instructions to possess the land to the nation of Israel, starting the 7 years.

Near the middle part of the 7 years, he sells out to Satan, who will enter him. The deal made is that he will be worshiped as God. And the Antichrist goes into the temple and declares that he is God. That ends all illusions that he is the true promised King Messiah of Israel. It will expose him as the man of sin. He will be mortally wounded and goes into hell. God, in His disdain for him, has him kicked out of the grave, and hell. Now we get to the beast.

The beast, on the other hand, is never under any pretense anything but an enemy to God. He lived long ago. He could be considered the Assyrian. He is the Adolph Hitler type character. He will be charismatic in that way. Who can make war against the beast? He is associated with Babylon. Being called the beast, he probably is not purely human. And being in the bottomless pit, he has been separated from his body. In the pit, he is a spirit.

When the Antichrist is booted out of the grave and hell, his desire to be God has not waned. The beast as a spirit will be allowed to ascend out of the bottomless pit and possess him, giving the former Antichrist great power. The Antichrist beast will have the Hitler-like personality of Nimrod with the drive to be worshiped as God.

Doug

For one thing:"It is real simple if you keep things in this perspective." Um, that's pretty rude and arrogant, seeing that this is your first post here, and you haven't even bothered to introduce yourself.

For another: "Lived long ago?" That sounds like reincarnation, and scripturally, reincarnation is not supported. The AC/Beast is indwelt by the Devil, not a human being. As for "lived long ago", that would imply that the man who did so died and when a person dies, they are either in hades or in heaven. Keep in mind the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

"“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ " (Luke 16: 25-26, NASB, emphasis mine)

Additionally: "Antichrist" is not just a person, but a spirit as well:

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error." (1 John 4:1-6, NASB, emphasis mine)

And then there is this verse:

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12, NASB, emphasis mine)

Scripture NEVER speaks of them as being two separate people. The term "beast" is describing the inner character of a man who on the outside seems civil, calm and very much messiah like.

But kindly do us a favor here: please do not come in here with your first post assuming we are all unschooled and are idiots when it comes to the end times. That comes across very poorly, especially on the day we celebrate the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

[Sean Osborne]

When Gog/Magog threatens Israel, he will mobilize the EU forces to stop them. Gog/Magog moves before he arrives in Israel, and God supernatural destroys Gog/Magog. When the Antichrist arrives in Israel with his EU force, he will be welcomed in the euphoria as King Messiah.

This very liberal interpretation of prophetic Scripture leaves a whole lot to be desired in coming to a full understanding of Ezekiel 38/39. For one thing it assumes that the EU forces are coming to Israel's aid when Scripture tells us that the 'Merchant's of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof' do nothing but offer up lip service. The liberal interpretation adds to the God-breathed prophecy something which is not plainly stated in the text, and is therefore, with a high degree of probability - in the 99.99 percentile of accuracy, an erroneous interpretation.

For another thing this interpretation is totally devoid of the Israelite nature that is at its core and always has been, even before Ezekiel was inspired by the Holy Spirit to declare it. For instance, the author of this interpretation is totally oblivious to the fact that the Jews, particularly the Orthodox Jews, expect the hero of the Battle of Gog/Magog to be one of their own. They believe he will be Moshiach ben Yosef, and he will delvier Israel from them enemies, but he will ultimately die of his wounds.

The Moshiach which will follow Moshiach ben Yosef to lead Israel (the 'King" per Ezekiel 37) will be Moshiach ben David. Thus will the Jews themselves fulfill Jesus's own prophecy, as read in John 5:43: "I have come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." They will receive him because they fully expect him to appear at this specific time.

[douggg]

For one thing:"It is real simple if you keep things in this perspective." Um, that's pretty rude and arrogant, seeing that this is your first post here, and you haven't even bothered to introduce yourself.....

But kindly do us a favor here: please do not come in here with your first post assuming we are all unschooled and are idiots when it comes to the end times. That comes across very poorly, especially on the day we celebrate the birth of our Savior, Jesus Christ.

Hi Robert, what? You can't read my mind? Crazy world isn''t it? Trust me, I am not that bad or threatening.

I wasn't assuming that anyone here was unschooled regarding the end-times. My post assumed that you knew that I was talking about Revelation 13, 17, and that Judas was entered into by Satan to do the deed and that since the Antichrist goes into the temple and sits in the temple of God showing that he is God - he too would be entered into by Satan for that short period - since both Judas and the man of sin are called the Son of Perdition.

What I did assume is that not many here make the distinction between King Messiah and save-us-from-our-sins messiah, and how the difference is critical in understanding the end times prophecies.

For another: "Lived long ago?" That sounds like reincarnation, and scripturally, reincarnation is not supported. The AC/Beast is indwelt by the Devil, not a human being. As for "lived long ago", that would imply that the man who did so died and when a person dies, they are either in hades or in heaven. Keep in mind the parable of Lazarus and the rich man:

Regarding the beast no reincarnation, nor resurrection of his body, is involved.

Lived long ago is based up Revelation 17:8, the first part saying the beast "was and is not", bible speak meaning that he was live but now is dead at the time John received Revelation. The second part of Revelation 17:8 is actually about the future Antichrist when it says "who was, is not, yet is", bible speak meaning that he lives, dies, but comes back alive. Causing the world to be amazed as they witness it.

When he comes back alive, the spirit of the beast (the ancient person) will ascend out of the bottomless pit to possess him. The bible doesn't identify the Antichrist as such in that verse because in his possessed state by the beast he is the eighth king. Over in Revelation 13, the Antichrist is the mortally wounded head that will be healed (the 7th king of the 7 sequential kings of Revelation 17).

Outwardly, all that the world will see visibly is the body of the Antichrist man. The ancient body of the beast is not involved, only his spirit. The Antichrist's death and resurrection will be similiar to Lazarus when Jesus raised Lazarus - the Antichrist man will come back alive in his previous body. Not like the glorified bodies which we will receive during the rapture/resurrection.

Since the beast is in the bottomless pit, a prison for certain fallen angels and demons, it most likely that he to a degree is a nephilim, which imo is why he is called the beast.

The Antichrist beast, a term I use referring to the unified Antichrist and beast to denote the Antichrist after he gets possessed by the spirit of the beast (basically a demon) ascending out of the bottomless pit, rules for the final 42 months of the seven years. The bible simply refers to him as the beast in Revelation 13.

The Antichrist beast is not incarnated by Satan because at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan, on the other hand, is cast into another place - the bottomless pit - the prison, whereby he will be released for a short time at the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3

"“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ " (Luke 16: 25-26, NASB, emphasis mine)

I believe that the chasm is the bottomless pit. So, we agree?

Additionally: "Antichrist" is not just a person, but a spirit as well:

Agreed.

Scripture NEVER speaks of them as being two separate people. The term "beast" is describing the inner character of a man who on the outside seems civil, calm and very much messiah like.

That's why I am making this thread. To show you that there are two separate individuals involved in the unified Antichrist beast. It is not possible that just one individual fit the prophecies, and also as you pointed out reincarnation is not supported by the bible. btw, since I didn't give my background, I am non-denominational and have studied bible prophecy full time for 39 years, I am 63. Just bear with me....

The "Antichrist" who John in his epistle said was coming is nowhere to be found in Revelation - under the word "Antichrist". Yet I am sure that you believe that the Antichrist is there in Revelation. To get right to it, the Antichrist is the mortally wounded head, that miraculously recovers. Revelation makes no mention of why that head is mortally wounded, so we have to piece it together from other parts of the bible like 2thess2:4 that you referenced, and Ezekiel 28:2-10 , the prince of Tyre part which is a code name for the Antichrist - who God has killed for claiming that he is God. In Isaiah 14, God has such a disdain for the Antichrist, that he kicks him out of the grave and hell, because he destroys his land and his people (Isaiah 14:19-20), an abominable branch - he will be a Jew.

Doug

[douggg]

This very liberal interpretation of prophetic Scripture leaves a whole lot to be desired in coming to a full understanding of Ezekiel 38/39. For one thing it assumes that the EU forces are coming to Israel's aid when Scripture tells us that the 'Merchant's of Tarshish and all the young lions thereof' do nothing but offer up lip service. The liberal interpretation adds to the God-breathed prophecy something which is not plainly stated in the text, and is therefore, with a high degree of probability - in the 99.99 percentile of accuracy, an erroneous interpretation.

For another thing this interpretation is totally devoid of the Israelite nature that is at its core and always has been, even before Ezekiel was inspired by the Holy Spirit to declare it. For instance, the author of this interpretation is totally oblivious to the fact that the Jews, particularly the Orthodox Jews, expect the hero of the Battle of Gog/Magog to be one of their own. They believe he will be Moshiach ben Yosef, and he will delvier Israel from them enemies, but he will ultimately die of his wounds.

The Moshiach which will follow Moshiach ben Yosef to lead Israel (the 'King" per Ezekiel 37) will be Moshiach ben David. Thus will the Jews themselves fulfill Jesus's own prophecy, as read in John 5:43: "I have come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not; if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." They will receive him because they fully expect him to appear at this specific time.

Hi Sean, I am very knowledgeable in what Judaism believes regarding the messiah. I have made over 4000 posts at their countermissionary and Judaism sites, learning their beliefs. Some do believe in the Moshiach ben Yosef and the Moshaich ben David. But when they said the Moshiach, it is referring to Mosiach ben David. What the Jews believe regarding the messiah is nicely explained in the first few minutes by this JewsforJudaism rabbi... What the world doesn't know about the Messiah - (Part 6/7) The Role Of Messiah In Judaism - YouTube

What the Jews believe, I agree is absolutely critical in understanding the end time bible prophecies. You referred to John 5:43, another coming in his on name - yes, that the Antichrist. But since save-us-from-our-sins-messiah was kept a secret from understanding until after the resurrection (Luke 24:44-48), Jesus when he was talking to Nicodemus was prophesying that the another will be a false promised King Messiah - not a save-us-from-our-sins messiah. In other words, he will not come pretending to be Jesus.

Save-us-from-our-sins messiah is a Christian concept that is not shared with Judaism. btw, in Luke 44:44, "the law of Moses, in the prophets, and in pslams" , the Jews refer to by the acronym "Tanach", their bible.

The Antichrist will be a Jew and the covenant he confirms will be the mt sinai covenant by reading the instructions by Moses to go in and posses the land - on the 7 years interval spelled out in Deuteronomy 31:10-11. The 7 years is right in the bible. It has to be read from the place of God's choosing, which I have had a conversation with a well qualified countermissionary Jew - that they have not done the 7 year interval reading because it must be from the temple mount. Of course, which they can't because it is under Muslim control.

I agree the perceived hero of the Gog/Magog war will be a Jew, the Antichrist false King Messiah. In Revelation 6:2, the Antichrist is the rider on the white horse, bow but no arrows because it is God Himself who destroys Gog/Magog. The 7 years following Gog/Magog are the 7 years of the Antichrist/Antichrist beast. The first feast in Ezekiel 39:4 is the Gog/Magog feast. 7 years later, the second feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast.

My basis for the little horn's (the Antichrist) move to mobilize a EU force to stop the Gog/Magog invasion is that in Daniel 8:9 he waxes strong to the south and east, toward the promise land. Which if the Antichrist, as the little horn in Daniel 7 comes up among ten kings of the fourth empire, that would put him in a position of authority. Currently, the Eurozone17 nations act like the United Nations. There has been talk of there being another treaty to organize themselves into a 10-11 nation "fiscal" union which would act more like the United States... another topic.

Importantly, the Jews who rely on the teachings of the RAMBAM in large part believe that their coming King Messiah will be a military man as well who will fight the battles of God in defending Israel. Since the 7 yeas following Gog/Magog is the 7 years of the Antichrist/Antichrist/beast is in Ezekiel 39 reinforced by the two feasts, I believe I am on pretty solid ground in my "conclusion" regarding the Antichrist coming out of Europe to defend Israel.

Doug

[Chris]

The Antichrist beast is not incarnated by Satan because at the end of the 7 years when Jesus returns, in Revelation 19:20, the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire. Satan, on the other hand, is cast into another place - the bottomless pit - the prison, whereby he will be released for a short time at the end of the 1000 years. Revelation 20:1-3

I'm sorry but the Antichrist will indeed be indwelt by Satan as indicated by Revelation 13.

Judas And The Anti-Christ | GraceThruFaith

Question: In John 17, Judas is referred to as the son of perdition. In 2 Thess, the Antichrist is referred to as the son of perdition. Is there a connection here?

Answer: You’re referring to John 17:12 where Jesus, while praying for His disciples, notes that He’s lost none of them except Judas who was doomed from the beginning.

In John 13:27 we read that when Jesus identified Judas as the traitor in the ranks, Satan entered him. At that point, Judas went from someone influenced by Satan to one indwelt by Him.

So it will be with the anti-Christ. When he first comes on the scene it will be as one influenced by Satan, but as things unfold Satan will actually dwell within him.(Rev. 13:1-8). Thus, Judas and the anti-Christ become the only two in the BIble to be personally indwelt by Satan.

[Chris]

What I did assume is that not many here make the distinction between King Messiah and save-us-from-our-sins messiah, and how the difference is critical in understanding the end times prophecies.

Are you talking about the Jews who see two Messiah figures, one Masciach (sp) ben David and the ben Joseph? If so, many of us are aware of the two different people the Jews are expecting, but there is only one real Messiah - Jesus Christ.

[douggg]

I'm sorry but the Antichrist will indeed be indwelt by Satan as indicated by Revelation 13.

Judas And The Anti-Christ | GraceThruFaith [/quote]

Hi Christ, I read your link, which you based your conclusion on Revelation 13:1-8.

However, I must disagree because Revelation 13 is dealing with the last 42 months of the seven years. The beast described in verses 1-8 (actually Revelation 13:1-2 is about the beast in respect to it representing a kingdom, Daniel 7:23. Revelation 13 doesn't start talking about the individual until Revelation 13:3) in no way can be a false version of the promised special King of Israel (King Messiah). The reason is - the beast curses God in Revelation 13:6. What kind of special King of Israel (King Messiah) would curse God? So the time of the Antichrist being viewed as the special promised King of Israel (King Messiah) is before the 42 months of Revelation 13 take place.

The person in Revelation 13 called the beast is the Antichrist after he has transformed into the Antichrist beast. There is no pretending of him being the special prophesied King of Israel as the beast.

I can agree that there is common ground between Judas and the Anti-Christ because both are entered into by Satan. Judas was not entered into by Satan until that passover eve, the night before Jesus's crucifixion, Luke 22:3-6. So it was only for a brief period of time. Later Judas hung himself for what he did.

Likewise, the Antichrist is not initially entered into by Satan until it comes time for him to go into the temple and show that he is God, revealing himself as the man of sin. He will be killed for doing so. In Revelation 13, he is the mortally wounded head that miraculously recovers.

Question: In John 17, Judas is referred to as the son of perdition. In 2 Thess, the Antichrist is referred to as the son of perdition. Is there a connection here?

Answer: You’re referring to John 17:12 where Jesus, while praying for His disciples, notes that He’s lost none of them except Judas who was doomed from the beginning.

Sure, the Antichrist is doomed from the beginning.

In John 13:27 we read that when Jesus identified Judas as the traitor in the ranks, Satan entered him. At that point, Judas went from someone influenced by Satan to one indwelt by Him.

So it will be with the anti-Christ. When he first comes on the scene it will be as one influenced by Satan, but as things unfold Satan will actually dwell within him.(Rev. 13:1-8). Thus, Judas and the anti-Christ become the only two in the BIble to be personally indwelt by Satan.

To the degree that the Antichrist when he first comes on the scene will deny that Jesus was (is) King Messiah, sure I agree. The Jews, Judaism, view Jesus as a failed King Messiah. So if the Antichrist is someone who is going to be embraced by the Jews as their messiah - it has to be that he denies that Jesus was (is) King Messiah. The point of disagreement we are having, imo, is the amount of time that Satan enters the Antichrist. I believe that it is only for a brief period like Judas. You apparently believe that Satan incarnates him for the 42 months of the second half. But I don't think you have considered that the
Antichrist is going to be killed before that 42 months begins. So Satan stops incarnating him because his body is lifeless.

Satan is worshiped during those 42 months Revelation 13:4. But it is not by incarnating the Antichrist beast, but the AOD image of the Antichrist beast.

Another proof, Chris, why I think you are mistaken is that in Revelation 16: the spirits metaphorically represented by frogs, actually demons, who carry out orders of the beast, false prophet, and Satan - come out of three individual mouths, not two.

So we have three individual mouths as:

The beast - the Antichrist/beast
The false prophet
The Dragon - Satan

In your view, there is a problem because there are only two mouths because you have....

The beast - incarnated by Satan
The false prophet

Tim Lahaye, in his left behind series realized that he had made a mistake, imo, of having Satan incarnating the beast by saying (paraphrasing) "two" unclean spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the beast. But that is not how the scripture is written. There are three frog like spirits "come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

So Satan cannot incarnate the beast as you have concluded.

Doug

[Chris]

Judas And The Anti-Christ | GraceThruFaith

Hi Christ, I read your link, which you based your conclusion on Revelation 13:1-8.

However, I must disagree because Revelation 13 is dealing with the last 42 months of the seven years. The beast described in verses 1-8 (actually Revelation 13:1-2 is about the beast in respect to it representing a kingdom, Daniel 7:23. Revelation 13 doesn't start talking about the individual until Revelation 13:3) in no way can be a false version of the promised special King of Israel (King Messiah). The reason is - the beast curses God in Revelation 13:6. What kind of special King of Israel (King Messiah) would curse God? So the time of the Antichrist being viewed as the special promised King of Israel (King Messiah) is before the 42 months of Revelation 13 take place.

The person in Revelation 13 called the beast is the Antichrist after he has transformed into the Antichrist beast. There is no pretending of him being the special prophesied King of Israel as the beast.

No, I'm afraid I will have to disagree. To me I see that you are ignoring the "personal" pronouns used in the verses 1 and 2. They are talking about a person, not a "government". You seem to have gotten your beasts all confused and messed up is what I would guess. I'd probably tend to think it is because you are focused on this "two messiahs" and what the Jewish traditions, etc. are when we shouldn't pay any attention to that stuff. We should go by the scriptures, not traditions of the Jews or other clay men doctrines.

I can agree that there is common ground between Judas and the Anti-Christ because both are entered into by Satan. Judas was not entered into by Satan until that passover eve, the night before Jesus's crucifixion, Luke 22:3-6. So it was only for a brief period of time. Later Judas hung himself for what he did.

Likewise, the Antichrist is not initially entered into by Satan until it comes time for him to go into the temple and show that he is God, revealing himself as the man of sin. He will be killed for doing so. In Revelation 13, he is the mortally wounded head that miraculously recovers.

I think we can agree there.

Sure, the Antichrist is doomed from the beginning.

Yep, he's definitely a loser.

To the degree that the Antichrist when he first comes on the scene will deny that Jesus was (is) King Messiah, sure I agree. The Jews, Judaism, view Jesus as a failed King Messiah. So if the Antichrist is someone who is going to be embraced by the Jews as their messiah - it has to be that he denies that Jesus was (is) King Messiah. The point of disagreement we are having, imo, is the amount of time that Satan enters the Antichrist. I believe that it is only for a brief period like Judas. You apparently believe that Satan incarnates him for the 42 months of the second half. But I don't think you have considered that the
Antichrist is going to be killed before that 42 months begins. So Satan stops incarnating him because his body is lifeless.

Satan is worshiped during those 42 months Revelation 13:4. But it is not by incarnating the Antichrist beast, but the AOD image of the Antichrist beast.

The scriptures do not support this. The scriptures support the AC indwelling when he is raised from his head wound and then demands to be worshiped as God. I see no justification from the scriptures to support a short period incarnation. A short term incarnation is mere speculation without any support that I can see.

Another proof, Chris, why I think you are mistaken is that in Revelation 16: the spirits metaphorically represented by frogs, actually demons, who carry out orders of the beast, false prophet, and Satan - come out of three individual mouths, not two.

So we have three individual mouths as:

The beast - the Antichrist/beast
The false prophet
The Dragon - Satan

In your view, there is a problem because there are only two mouths because you have....

The beast - incarnated by Satan
The false prophet

Tim Lahaye, in his left behind series realized that he had made a mistake, imo, of having Satan incarnating the beast by saying (paraphrasing) "two" unclean spirits like frogs coming from the mouth of the beast. But that is not how the scripture is written. There are three frog like spirits "come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet."

So Satan cannot incarnate the beast as you have concluded.

Doug

I don't see a problem, because these are spirits, not physical frogs/beings coming out of the AC, FP, and Satan. Satan when he indwells the AC is a spirit inside the body of any other spirit filled body. We need to realize that Satan is trying to "counterfeit" the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by carrying out the Satan, AC, and FP trio. These spirits are to work the counterfeit miracles and signs for the purpose of deception of following the AC. We don't know and understand everything in the spirit. Or how they work, etc. But the Bible is clear that when the AC raises from his mortal head wound he will be indwelt by Satan. That is around the mid point of the Tribulation period around the AOD. Not at the end of the Tribulation.

[douggg]

Are you talking about the Jews who see two Messiah figures, one Masciach (sp) ben David and the ben Joseph? If so, many of us are aware of the two different people the Jews are expecting, but there is only one real Messiah - Jesus Christ.

Hi Chris, no, I am not speaking of Messiah ben David and Messiah ben Joseph. I am talking about the Jews only believe in a "King Messiah" - who is not a save-us-from-our-sins-messiah.

In Judaism the concept of save-us-from-our-sins messiah has no place. To them, the messiah means a special great King of Israel. The nearest illustration I can think of is a stepped up version of King David. That's what the Jews are expecting.

When Jesus was crucified, Pilate had a plaque put on the cross above Jesus's head - "King of the Jews". He was mocking the belief that the Jews had of a great promised King who would free them from foreign control.

That Jesus was God's save-us-from-our-sins messiah was kept a secret from understanding until after the resurrection. When Jesus was crucified, the disciples were all dejected because they knew of the messiah as only King Messiah, and when Jesus died all hope of his being the messiah - as they viewed the messiah at the time - was lost.

When Jesus appeared to them after the resurrection, they still didn't have a clue. Jesus had to explain God's salvation to them, and he opened their understanding of the scriptures. And with that understanding, they went out and taught was has been passed down to us generation to generation - what the scriptures mean.

The Jews don't believe that Jesus appeared to the disciples and the whole thing is made up - so they reject that the messiah's prime purpose was to save us from our sins, or that there is a need to be saved from our sins. They stick to the King Messiah concept, like the disciples had before the resurrection.

Jesus was King Messiah, but to the Jews he was a failed King Messiah. The Antichrist will be a false King Messiah. Not someone who professes that salvation from sins is necessary. To the contrary, he will say salvation from sins is not necessary.


Doug

[Chris]

As for being saved in the OT and during the NT, this is what is required. Which was foretold in Isaiah 53 of the suffering servant.

Abraham And The Jews Of Today | GraceThruFaith

Abraham And The Jews Of Today

Question: Since Abraham was justified by faith in God, that is to say he believed God, wouldn’t it stand to reason that the Jews, who also believe God, would be justified by their faith? Wasn’t Abraham’s sin applied to the blood of Christ even though, expecting a Savior, he did not know Jesus? The Jews believe God will send a Savior just as Abraham believed God would send a Savior. They will go to their grave expecting God’s anointed. The Jews have faith in God. It seems that their faith in Him will go unrewarded.

Answer: Paul said Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3). All Old Testament Jews who believed in the coming redeemer were saved. In fact their faith was the only thing that made their sacrifices acceptable. Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it (John 8:56). He was referring to the sacrifice of Isaac, acted out in Genesis 22. Abraham knew it foretold of the coming redeemer.

But when Jesus came, the Redeemer suddenly had a name and a face, and from that time on belief in Him was required. Jesus said it’s the only thing God requires of His people (John 6:28-29). He also said no one can come to the Father but through Him (John 14:6).

Major emphasis is placed on His name. Peter told Israel’s leaders that salvation is found in no one else for there is not other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Paul said all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13). And God gave Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil 2:9-10).

Belief in a redeemer who will someday come to save God’s people is no longer sufficient, because He has come and His name is Jesus.

[Chris]

Who the AC is, etc. will be for those who are around to find out. The main thing for us to do know is to spread the Gospel message to Gentiles and Jews alike. The Jews need Jesus, too. Let's keep spreading the Word!!

[douggg]

No, I'm afraid I will have to disagree. To me I see that you are ignoring the "personal" pronouns used in the verses 1 and 2. They are talking about a person, not a "government". You seem to have gotten your beasts all confused and messed up is what I would guess. I'd probably tend to think it is because you are focused on this "two messiahs" and what the Jewish traditions, etc. are when we shouldn't pay any attention to that stuff. We should go by the scriptures, not traditions of the Jews or other clay men doctrines.

Hi Chris, in Revelation 13:1-2 the beast coming out of the sea is a cross reference to Daniel 7:3. When the angel (assumed) explains to Daniel in the meaning of his night vision, he refers to the 4 beasts as 4 kings in Daniel 7:17. The 4th king being the little horn. But also in Daniel 7:23, the fourth beast represent the fourth kingdom. So the beasts in Daniel 7 are both kings and kingdoms. That dual representation is carried over in Revelation 13:1-3.

The beast in Revelation 13:2 is made up of the composite of the first three beasts (kingdoms) described in Daniel 7:4-6. This cannot be referring to an individual in Revelation 13:2, but the 4th kingdom of Daniel 7:23, since in Daniel 7, the little horn is not a composite of the first three beasts.

Since Revelation 13 reflects the last 42 months of 7 years, at the beginning of that 42 months, the fourth kingdom will have gained control of the territories once held by the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires. Simply put, the European ten king kingdom will have gotten control of the oil rich middle east.

In Revelation 13:3, it gets into the discussion of the beast as an individual, not a kingdom.

The two different messiah concepts, which I don't think you are understanding me, is not a tradition of man, but is based totally on the scriptures. You will not be able to find anything in the gospels that the reason the Jews crucified and rejected Jesus as being because they didn't think he was a save-us-from-our-sins messiah.

The fact is God's plan of salvation was kept secret from understanding until after the resurrection. I can easily prove that point from Luke 24:44-48. Also from 1Corinthians2:7-8.

The Jews crucified Jesus because he did not match up with their view that King Messiah was anything but a man, and Jesus said in essence that he was God - which to them was a capital offense - because they didn't believe him. The Jews hold the view still today that the messiah is strictly a man, nothing divine, based on him prophesied to be a descendant of King David.

The scriptures do not support this. The scriptures support the AC indwelling when he is raised from his head wound and then demands to be worshiped as God. I see no justification from the scriptures to support a short period incarnation. A short term incarnation is mere speculation without any support that I can see.

Can you show Judas being entered into by Satan for anything but a short period?

Who is the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8 first part... 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: ?

Another proof. The two witnesses testify for the first 1260 days of the 7 years, Revelation 11:3. Near the end of their testimony, the beast that ascendth out of the bottomless pit makes war on them Revelation 11:7. In your view, the beast would be the Satan incarnated Antichrist.

After the beast kills the two witnesses, their bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days, Revelation 11:8-9. Then they come back alive ascend, followed by an earthquake that levels the city. Revelation 11:12-13. Keep in mind that the beast has ascended from the bottomless pit this entire time - because he is the one who killed them, which you view as the Satan incarnated Antichrist.

Then the 7th trumpet sounds, announcing the third woe, and the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of God and of his Christ. There is only one woe mentioned in the text of Revelation following the 7th trumpet. That is of the war in heaven and Satan being cast down to earth Revelation 12:9-13.

If Satan is in heaven to be cast down, how can he also be on earth incarnating the beast who killed the two witnesses? Satan does not have the ability to be in two places at once.

The slain/recovered Antichrist will be incarnated by the spirit of some other individual from the past who was an enemy to God - Nimrod, imo.

I don't see a problem, because these are spirits, not physical frogs/beings coming out of the AC, FP, and Satan. Satan when he indwells the AC is a spirit inside the body of any other spirit filled body. We need to realize that Satan is trying to "counterfeit" the Holy Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by carrying out the Satan, AC, and FP trio. These spirits are to work the counterfeit miracles and signs for the purpose of deception of following the AC. We don't know and understand everything in the spirit. Or how they work, etc. But the Bible is clear that when the AC raises from his mortal head wound he will be indwelt by Satan. That is around the mid point of the Tribulation period around the AOD. Not at the end of the Tribulation.

Chris, the issue is not the nature of the spirits, but that they, in the text, come out of three separate mouths...not two. Actually, a better case for incarnation by Satan, would be that he incarnates the False Prophet because the False Prophet speaks as a dragon, Revelation 13:11. My own view is that Satan incarnates the AOD image of the slain/recovered Antichrist beast, making it come alive, speaks and demands worship.

I didn't mean to imply by referring to Revelation 16, the number of mouths issue, that the Antichrist will be slain/recovered/possessed by the beast ascending from the bottomless pit at any other time than the middle part of the 7 years. Actually, it is not at the exact 1260 day midpoint, but that is another discussion.


Doug

[douggg]

As for being saved in the OT and during the NT, this is what is required. Which was foretold in Isaiah 53 of the suffering servant.

Abraham And The Jews Of Today | GraceThruFaith

Abraham And The Jews Of Today

Question: Since Abraham was justified by faith in God, that is to say he believed God, wouldn’t it stand to reason that the Jews, who also believe God, would be justified by their faith? Wasn’t Abraham’s sin applied to the blood of Christ even though, expecting a Savior, he did not know Jesus? The Jews believe God will send a Savior just as Abraham believed God would send a Savior. They will go to their grave expecting God’s anointed. The Jews have faith in God. It seems that their faith in Him will go unrewarded.

Answer: Paul said Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3). All Old Testament Jews who believed in the coming redeemer were saved. In fact their faith was the only thing that made their sacrifices acceptable. Jesus said that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced in it (John 8:56). He was referring to the sacrifice of Isaac, acted out in Genesis 22. Abraham knew it foretold of the coming redeemer.

But when Jesus came, the Redeemer suddenly had a name and a face, and from that time on belief in Him was required. Jesus said it’s the only thing God requires of His people (John 6:28-29). He also said no one can come to the Father but through Him (John 14:6).

Major emphasis is placed on His name. Peter told Israel’s leaders that salvation is found in no one else for there is not other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved (Acts 4:12). Paul said all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved (Romans 10:13). And God gave Him the name above every name that at the name of Jesus every every knee should bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil 2:9-10).

Belief in a redeemer who will someday come to save God’s people is no longer sufficient, because He has come and His name is Jesus.

Hi Chris, if you had been one of the disciples walking with Jesus... before the resurrection you would not have been able to have come to the truth of your post - because their understanding of what you wrote regarding the scriptures was not opened to them until after the Resurrection. Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

Prior to the risen Christ Jesus explaining to them God's plan of salvation, the Gospel of Salvation, and opening their understanding, they thought of the messiah only in the concept of King Messiah, a great promised King of Israel.

Doug

[Sean Osborne]

I am very knowledgeable in what Judaism believes regarding the messiah.

Douggg,

That is not even remotely apparent from reading your post as the Jewish component is utterly and completely absent. That's what I noticed right from the get-go. Also absent from your work are a few other fundamental elements of proper hermeneutics - hence the flood of objections you are encountering from the brethren on these Rapture Forums.

I agree the perceived hero of the Gog/Magog war will be a Jew, the Antichrist false King Messiah.

Nonsense. You do not agree with anything that I have written. The advent of the Antichrist is likely several years yet into the future. Lord God Almighty is the "hero" of Ezekiel 38/39 as made evident in Ezekiel 39:29.

Your eschatology is greatly flawed due to poor hermeneutics. And your pride holds you up as being more knowledgeable than most. That is a huge error. It's time for some humility from you to learn from your errors. You do NOT have these prophetic issues down pat as you think you do.

[douggg]

Douggg,

That is not even remotely apparent from reading your post as the Jewish component is utterly and completely absent. That's what I noticed right from the get-go. Also absent from your work are a few other fundamental elements of proper hermeneutics - hence the flood of objections you are encountering from the brethren on these Rapture Forums.

Nonsense. You do not agree with anything that I have written. The advent of the Antichrist is likely several years yet into the future. Lord God Almighty is the "hero" of Ezekiel 38/39 as made evident in Ezekiel 39:29.

Here is what you wrote:
"For instance, the author of this interpretation is totally oblivious to the fact that the Jews, particularly the Orthodox Jews, expect the hero of the Battle of Gog/Magog to be one of their own."

Your eschatology is greatly flawed due to poor hermeneutics. And your pride holds you up as being more knowledgeable than most. That is a huge error. It's time for some humility from you to learn from your errors. You do NOT have these prophetic issues down pat as you think you do.

Have you ever heard... "argue the point and not the person" ? If your view is different than mine please just address the specific point with your rationale, and supporting scriptures where applicable. When I wrote that the Antichrist will be a Jew - that is not a Jewish component?

I had wrote that the Antichrist will be the "perceived" hero, somewhat in agreement with what you had wrote (in italics above). My intent was that he will appear to the Jews as filling the bill, as King Messiah, who according to the RAMBAM, summarizes what the messiah will do and one of those requirements is that he fights the battles of God in defending Israel.


Doug

[Meg]

I personally find this "save us from our sins messiah" line disturbing. That comes off as very disrespectful of Jesus Christ. Beyond that, your attempts at end times theology are overtly mistaken in many ways.

[mattfivefour]

The simple fact is that there was ONE MESSIAH PROMISED ... and ONE MESSIAH GIVEN. And NO OTHER MESSIAH WILL EVER APPEAR.

Two thousand years ago the Jews indeed recognized their Messiah ... by the thousands and tens of thousands. That is how the early church grew. For decades! He saved them, as He has saved all of us, from their sins and will return to save Israel itself at the end of the Great Tribulation ... at least those who survive.

It is only those who did NOT accept their promised Messiah who found an ingenious explanation by following their disbelieving rabbis who found it necessary to invent the two Messiah theory. This invention, sad to say, appears to have been picked up by some messianic Jews today. The rabbis now, as they have been for two thousand years, and were in Jesus's day blind men professing to know the Scriptures and knowing them not. They are puffed up in their human knowledge and their human wisdom and their cleverly intricate perambulations in, through, and around the words of Holy Writ. But they have no clue of the person of God nor can they ever know ... outside of revelation by רוח הקודש (ruach hakodesh, the Holy Spirit). And the Holy Spirit ONLY works within the finished work of Christ that He accomplished on the Cross. There shall never be any other means of salvation during this age; and thus there shall never be any other means of knowing God. The two messiah theory is a deception and should not be used in any way in the deciphering of prophetic scripture ... or any other scripture, for that matter.

[Chris]

Hi Chris, if you had been one of the disciples walking with Jesus... before the resurrection you would not have been able to have come to the truth of your post - because their understanding of what you wrote regarding the scriptures was not opened to them until after the Resurrection. Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48And ye are witnesses of these things.

Prior to the risen Christ Jesus explaining to them God's plan of salvation, the Gospel of Salvation, and opening their understanding, they thought of the messiah only in the concept of King Messiah, a great promised King of Israel.

Doug

douggg,
You theology is flawed. You missed this from my above Abraham post. Even Abraham knew of a coming redeemer. That is how people were saved in OT times, in the belief of a coming redeemer, not this King Messiah thing you are speaking of. They knew about sin, need for redemption, and that God had promised one. They just didn't know his name back then. In OT times you were saved by the belief of a coming redeemer, in NT times we are saved by the belief in the redeemer who has already come - Jesus Christ.

No more King Messiah or two messiah promotions on the board here. This is confusing and incorrect doctrine. We can't have newbies and other confused with this. As mattfivefour stated, there was only one promised messiah and he has already come.

[Chris]

Hi Chris, in Revelation 13:1-2 the beast coming out of the sea is a cross reference to Daniel 7:3. When the angel (assumed) explains to Daniel in the meaning of his night vision, he refers to the 4 beasts as 4 kings in Daniel 7:17. The 4th king being the little horn. But also in Daniel 7:23, the fourth beast represent the fourth kingdom. So the beasts in Daniel 7 are both kings and kingdoms. That dual representation is carried over in Revelation 13:1-3.

The beast in Revelation 13:2 is made up of the composite of the first three beasts (kingdoms) described in Daniel 7:4-6. This cannot be referring to an individual in Revelation 13:2, but the 4th kingdom of Daniel 7:23, since in Daniel 7, the little horn is not a composite of the first three beasts.

Since Revelation 13 reflects the last 42 months of 7 years, at the beginning of that 42 months, the fourth kingdom will have gained control of the territories once held by the Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires. Simply put, the European ten king kingdom will have gotten control of the oil rich middle east.

In Revelation 13:3, it gets into the discussion of the beast as an individual, not a kingdom.

Utter nonsense. You are totally missing the personal pronouns used in the scriptures in verse 1 and 2. This is not a kingdom. No one calls a government "he" anywhere in the world. You theology is flawed douggg and it looks like you are trying to shoehorn stuff in the scriptures that isn't there. And no, Nimrod is not the AC either. I see you've been over the internet trying to promote that theory as well.

The two different messiah concepts, which I don't think you are understanding me, is not a tradition of man, but is based totally on the scriptures. You will not be able to find anything in the gospels that the reason the Jews crucified and rejected Jesus as being because they didn't think he was a save-us-from-our-sins messiah.

The fact is God's plan of salvation was kept secret from understanding until after the resurrection. I can easily prove that point from Luke 24:44-48. Also from 1Corinthians2:7-8.

The Jews crucified Jesus because he did not match up with their view that King Messiah was anything but a man, and Jesus said in essence that he was God - which to them was a capital offense - because they didn't believe him. The Jews hold the view still today that the messiah is strictly a man, nothing divine, based on him prophesied to be a descendant of King David.

The two messiah concepts is a clay man made tradition or doctrine. This is not taught in the scriptures anywhere. This is why the Jews missed the Messiah the first time is because they listened to their clay man made nonsense instead of listening to the scriptures, especially ones like Isaiah 53 and Genesis where it talks about the "seed of a woman" that is a hint the Mesisah would not be a regular man like you and I. No, this two messiah nonsense is just that, utter nonsense. No more promoting two messiahs theories on the board.

Can you show Judas being entered into by Satan for anything but a short period?

It doesn't matter how long Satan was in Judas for it to concern the AC. There is no relevance there. You seem to think there is but you are totally disregarding the scriptures and what THEY say while holding on to your flawed theology. The Bible says the AC will indwell the AC around the mid point of the Tribulation, not the last few days of the Tribulation. Just because something happens once this way in the bible doesn't mean it applies to every other situation the same way. We have to listen to what the SCRIPTURES say not our own little pet theories. Now no more promoting of alternative views of when Satan indwells the AC other than what the BIBLE says. No more clay man made nonsense.

Who is the beast in the bottomless pit in Revelation 17:8 first part... 8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: ?

Another proof. The two witnesses testify for the first 1260 days of the 7 years, Revelation 11:3. Near the end of their testimony, the beast that ascendth out of the bottomless pit makes war on them Revelation 11:7. In your view, the beast would be the Satan incarnated Antichrist.

After the beast kills the two witnesses, their bodies lie in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days, Revelation 11:8-9. Then they come back alive ascend, followed by an earthquake that levels the city. Revelation 11:12-13. Keep in mind that the beast has ascended from the bottomless pit this entire time - because he is the one who killed them, which you view as the Satan incarnated Antichrist.

Then the 7th trumpet sounds, announcing the third woe, and the kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of God and of his Christ. There is only one woe mentioned in the text of Revelation following the 7th trumpet. That is of the war in heaven and Satan being cast down to earth Revelation 12:9-13.

If Satan is in heaven to be cast down, how can he also be on earth incarnating the beast who killed the two witnesses? Satan does not have the ability to be in two places at once.

The slain/recovered Antichrist will be incarnated by the spirit of some other individual from the past who was an enemy to God - Nimrod, imo.

Satan comes and goes all the time from Heaven to Earth now and he will do so until he has been kicked out of Heaven. All of this occurs around the mid point of the tribulation when satan is cast down between the trumpets and bowl judments. The seals and trumpets are in the first half of the tribulation and the bowls in the second half. Your theory is flawed and you are simply confused. Satan is cast down then the AC recovers from the head wound and the flase prophets arrives on the scene. Read Revelation 10-16 in order to see the sequence. It's plain as night and day.

Chris, the issue is not the nature of the spirits, but that they, in the text, come out of three separate mouths...not two. Actually, a better case for incarnation by Satan, would be that he incarnates the False Prophet because the False Prophet speaks as a dragon, Revelation 13:11. My own view is that Satan incarnates the AOD image of the slain/recovered Antichrist beast, making it come alive, speaks and demands worship.

I didn't mean to imply by referring to Revelation 16, the number of mouths issue, that the Antichrist will be slain/recovered/possessed by the beast ascending from the bottomless pit at any other time than the middle part of the 7 years. Actually, it is not at the exact 1260 day midpoint, but that is another discussion.


Doug

This is just one more flawed theory. Satan gives power to the image to "come alive" but that doesn't mean he indwells the AOD. The scriptures say he indwells the AC as satan incarnate. We don't even know what the image is or how it will be. We can only speculate. The scriptures are clear that the AC in dwelt by Satan. No more confusion of the scriptures here with this teaching. We follow the fundamental, conservative, and time tested theology of Bible prophecy, not pet theories and other stuff that comes from clay men. Let's stay biblical.