The Choice

[Chris]

The Choice

The Choice
By Jack Kinsella

The question has been asked so many times that has morphed from a question into a challenge; "How can a merciful and loving God condemn people to eternal torments in hell?"

The question is not just posed by atheists and skeptics, but also by some sincere, but woefully uneducated Christians. The argument has some merit on the surface. God is love. All men are created with a sin nature.

Since, by definition and design, all men are sinners and our Creator God is love, it logically follows that a loving God who created sinners would be unjust in condemning them to hell for being what they are.

God is the Righteous Judge. If He is so righteous, it seems logical that He would take into account the mitigating circumstances.

Especially since the chief mitigation is the fact it was the Righteous Judge that created the unrighteous sinner and that unrighteousness is the default condition of man. That cannot be stressed strongly enough.

The default condition of mankind is that of utter depravity. People are not born good and then learn bad things. It is precisely the opposite.

There is a common canard in our society that dictates that racism, for example, is learned behavior. A 'learned behavior' is something that has been taught to someone, or a way of thinking that they did not come up with themselves.

The prevailing worldview is that children who grow up to be racists are taught to be racist as a child. In this view, unless a child is taught to be racist, he will grow up to be 'color-blind' so to speak.

An article posted on the American Psychiatric Association's website attempted to argue against racism as a 'mental illness', claiming that racism "is mainly a product of learned behavior," and "a majority of explicitly racist persons do not have any psychopathology."

I don't know if racism is a mental illness, but I know that racism is not something that children are taught. It is something that they must be 'untaught'.

Children are racist by nature. Studies conducted that put one black pre-schooler into a classroom full of white pre-schoolers showed the white pre-schoolers abused, ostracized and teased the black kid corporately, that is to say, they did so as a group.

Reversing the situation produced the same results; the black kids abused, ostracized and teased the white kid, again corporately. Were all these pre-schoolers taught to be racists?

Moreover, who taught them to be abusive? Who taught them the principles of boycott, or ostracization?

These are fairly advanced principles for pre-schoolers -- it took Jesse Jackson a lifetime of effort to fine-tune them into the social weapons they are today. Where did these kids learn to be racist?

Any school teacher will confirm that children are not only racist, they are mean. Kids are really small terrorists without advanced weaponry or a cause. And we were all kids.

If we reach back far enough into our memories, it is fairly obvious that the cruelest people we ever met were our own classmates.

Everyone remembers that one kid who was taunted unmercifully, (maybe it was you) because of their skin color, their religion, their social status, or some other characteristic that made that kid different. (I remember a kid we all teased because he was ugly.)

I was teased unmercifully because I had no hand-to-eye coordination. When we would choose up sides to play baseball, the two team captains would choose their players until they got to me. Then they'd fight over who got 'stuck' with me -- as if I wasn't there.

My nicknames were alternatively, "Easy Out" and "Butterfingers" -- two terms that make me cringe to this day.

Children have to be taught not to hit each other, bite each other, they have to be taught not to steal, to show respect, not to lie, etc.

Prisons are full of folks who blame their upbringing for their shortcomings. That's a cop out. Children needn't be taught bad values because 'bad' is their default state.

Prisons, as rehabilitation centers, attempt to teach 'good' values -- or the word 'rehabilitation' is meaningless.

A long example to prove a short principle; We are born sinners. Evil is our default condition. It is goodness that is the learned behavior.

To return to our original premise, if a loving God created us without a spark of goodness, then how could He then condemn us to an eternity of torment for being what He made us to be -- and still call that 'perfect justice'?

It is worth noting that the only inherently evil creation in the corporeal (physical) world is humanity. Animals aren't evil by nature. They do what comes naturally.

Sin isn't a learned behavior. It is something that must be unlearned. The degree to which a human being 'unlearns' selfishness, cruelty and sadism becomes the measure of his goodness. Provide the right set of circumstances, say, New Orleans after Katrina, and humanity reverts to type.

Doctors murder patients to save themselves. People with no criminal record become looters. The strong prey on the weak. Right and wrong, as social concepts, essentially evaporate.

Man was created in God's image. He was created with the ability to discern between right and wrong, and was also created with the ability to choose which path to take.

This planet is the only place in God's creation where evil is permitted unfettered operation. Theologians call it the 'cosmos diabolicus'. It is enclosed by an atmosphere which keeps evil from escaping out into the universe.

When Satan came to present himself before the Lord, "the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it." (Job 1:7)

It is Satan's domain. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he offered the Creator of the Universe a bargain:

"the devil taketh Him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth Him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto Him, All these things will I give thee, if Thou wilt fall down and worship me." (Matthew 4:8-9)

Although Jesus is the Creator (and Satan knew it) the 'cosmos diabolicus' was Satan's to offer.

So, again we return to the central question: "How could a loving God condemn us to eternal torment for being what He made us to be?"

A lion who hunts down and kills an injured wildebeest that can't keep up with the herd isn't doing evil because he selected the weakest and most vulnerable prey. That's what he was created to do. He has no other choice.

And THAT is where God's perfect justice comes in. We DO have a choice. We were created specifically to that single purpose. So that, when given the choice, we could then choose God.

God's perfect justice demands that there be some provision of salvation for those who choose Him -- or He could impose no penalty for those who choose to reject Him.

Jesus Christ is God in the flesh. Therefore, man has a choice between 'good' (God) and man's default nature of evil (self). Jesus Christ represents God's perfect justice.

Having defeated the sin nature by living a perfect life, He was uniquely qualified to pay the penalty perfect justice demands, because no created being could earn the currency necessary to pay the price on their own behalf.

Each of us is acutely aware of our sin nature. We spend a lifetime seeking to overcome it, and in so doing, learn that it is impossible. We then are confronted with a choice.

We can choose Heaven by humbly accepting the offer of Pardon extended to us, knowing it is not something we earned, cannot earn, and cannot buy or steal.

Or we can choose hell, the place prepared as the eternal repository for sin after this cosmos diabolicus is destroyed at the end of human history.

The earth will have served its purpose as a confinement area for sin, and having served that purpose, "shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." (2nd Peter 3:12)

After Satan is banished to hell and sin is contained, the cosmos diabolicus gives way to "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." (2nd Peter 3:13)

God doesn't condemn us to hell. He condemns sin. But in His mercy, He provides a way for us to shed our sin nature through the regeneration of salvation.

But we are the ones who make the final choice. It is indeed perfect justice that the condemned be given the choice -- while still in their sins -- of where they will spend eternity.

Having expressly provided the choices to us, it would be utterly unjust of God to ignore the choice we make.

God is just, so He honors the choice we make.

[Robert]

[mattfivefour]

Amen!

[Hannah]

Thanks for the article Chris.

[dave-o]

...Or we can choose hell, the place prepared as the eternal repository for sin after this cosmos diabolicus is destroyed at the end of human history.

That's the simplest/best definition of the purpose of hell that I have ever read.

I also liked this small example of how sin creates consequences that oft times can't be undone no matter how many good deeds are done after wards.

My nicknames were alternatively, "Easy Out" and "Butterfingers" -- two terms that make me cringe to this day.

[LivnForChrist]

Good article.

[billym]

Thanks Chris, good article.

[AndyM]

Wonderfull teaching brother. We do have the choice and so many will not take Gods gift of salvation which is offered to us sinners freely from our eternal Father in Heaven. Thank you Jesus for your salvation of eternal life for me. I love you JESUS!!!

[micah719]

Having expressly provided the choices to us, it would be utterly unjust of God to ignore the choice we make.

Actually I'm glad He didn't stop with my many "No's" and said Yes....and after the fact, I gratefully agree.

Keep your merit idol freewill, I'll stick with grace. If He were simply just, I'd be going to the fryer. And I would have no grounds to judge God for that, Jack.

[livin_in_the_Son]

Great article!

[SteveJM]

Very Good!!!

Two concluding verses from "Why I AM NOT A CALVINIST," by Jerry L. Walls and Joseph R. Dongell-

(God commands us to follow his example.)

1 John 3:16-18
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

(The angels rejoice.)

Luke 15:7-10
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.
10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

My question.

Would there be this exuberant rejoicing if the one who repents had no choice but to do so?

From RF member,micah719-
"Keep your merit idol freewill, I'll stick with grace. If He were simply just, I'd be going to the fryer. And I would have no grounds to judge God for that, Jack."

My response to micah719-
Our limited free will is not an idol nor does it exclude or diminish the grace of God.

From "Chosen by God," by R.C.Sproul-
"The only answer I can give to this question is that I don't know. I have no idea why God saves some but not all. I don't doubt for a moment that God has the power to save all, but I know that he does not choose to save all. I don't know why."

In my opinion the reason that R.C. Sproul cannot answer the question is because his theology is flawed.

A.B. Brown, a Freewill Baptist wrote " the key that opens all the doors is the right key." Sproul has a door here that he cannot open. My conclusion is that he needs to come outside of his theological fortress(Calvinism), and start anew in developing an understanding of God's word that harmonizes all of scripture.

[micah719]

Leave the "c" word out, as I did not mention it or the "a" word.

If it were not The Lord opening my heart to receive His Gospel, as He did to Lydia, I would have continued in my sins. Sure, my faith is a grace gift that came by hearing the Word of God, but never will I point to my act of choice as the basis of my faith, or the determining event that made the difference. It came as a result of new birth, it was not the cause of it. And forget setting up strawman Sproul, I have great misgivings about him and I am not alone; as for what paraphrase you quote I know not; and there certainly is great rejoicing over every sinner that repents, and the glory is all God's. 100%.

[luckyhouston]

I understand what you are trying to say, but I must say I think it misses the mark on a couple points.

It isn't about a single choice, but constant choices to live the life God commands.

Also, to simply say its our choice ignores that God alone is creator and judge. God as judge determines our fate. The only thing we as humans control is how we live, and what we believe. God creates the nature of our punishment and carries out the sentence.

[SteveJM]

I am neither a Calvinist or Arminian. I am a Christian. Both John Calvin and Jacobus Arminius were fallible human beings such as we are. Sproul does pose a question, agree with him or not, but it's a good unanswerable question from a follower of Calvin. I have friends who are Calvinistic leaning and friends who are, what I would call, modified Arminians. We count ourselves as family. I believe that Salvation is a gift that is available to all, not an elect few. I do not believe that my accepting a gift in any way earns the gift. I am saved by the grace of God and he did draw me to him. He drew me by his creation, his word and his spirit. I'm thankful to God for saving my soul, thankful to Jesus Christ for paying the price, thankful, thankful, thankful. We must be careful in how we speak or write. Using a word like "idol" to your brothers and sisters is, in my opinion, not called for.

[Chris]

I understand what you are trying to say, but I must say I think it misses the mark on a couple points.

What you have been parroting has missed the marks by miles. There is no such thing as annihilation in the Bible. It's either eternal life or eternal punishment. Simple as that.

It isn't about a single choice, but constant choices to live the life God commands.

Yes, it is about a single choice, you either accept or decline God's free gift of eternal life paid for by Jesus on the Cross. No one can live the life God commands as none of us can go without sin. Do you say you are sinless?

Also, to simply say its our choice ignores that God alone is creator and judge. God as judge determines our fate. The only thing we as humans control is how we live, and what we believe. God creates the nature of our punishment and carries out the sentence.

It's our choice to decide whether we choose eternal life or eternal punishment. God just goes by our decision in carrying out his justice after that. You either respond to the free gift of eternal life or you choose eternal separation away from God in torments.

[luckyhouston]

What you have been parroting hias missed the marks by miles. There is no such thing as annihilation in the Bible. It's either eternal life or eternal punishment. Simple as that.

I wasn't talking about annihilation, but I dissagree that it isn't in the bible.

Yes, it is about a single choice, you either accept or decline God's free gift of eternal life paid for by Jesus on the Cross. No one can live the life God commands as none of us can go without sin. Do you say you are sinless?

Being saved is not a license to live however you want. We are to live according to Gods word. We make choices every day in how we behave. While you are correct that none is perfect that doesn't absolve us to not and try to live according to the commands of the lord. That is faith with out works is dead.

It's our choice to decide whether we choose eternal life or eternal punishment. God just goes by our decision in carrying out his justice after that. You either respond to the free gift of eternal life or you choose eternal separation away from God in torments.

God is the Judge. You oversimplify. God is not powerless to our whims. I agree that that the culmination of our choices either leads to eternal life and salvation or eternal separation. I only dissagree that the nature of that separation is never ending suffering and torment.

I dissagree because as you said it is a free choice. Do what I say or suffer never ending agony isn't a free choice. Just as someone demanding your watch with a gun to your head really isn't giving you a choice. You could say no, but really did you have a choice?

[Chris]

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bibl...-or-temporary/

Punishment: Eternal Or Temporary?

Q. This is a follow-up on the punishment forever question. Ever since I read about the view you discussed (a couple years ago actually in one of your articles) I’ve been looking for something concrete to back this up. The idea appeals to me humanly, and presents a view of God consistent with his love … However, I’m coming up dry.

Also, in light of Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:48 (and possibly 2 other vs in the KJV, I believe where it is repeated in the Mk 9 passage) I feel this is refuting the annihilation view. Is there another interpretation of “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”. I’ve been wrestling with this now for about a year but wanted to find an answer through my own study. Can you help?

A. Among the three leading interpretations of Scripture pertaining to the destiny of unbelievers, the traditional view of eternal suffering is most consistent with Scripture. Those who like the conditional view point to the concept of being judged according to their works as being more in in line with God’s character, but they don’t have a good explanation for the verses you cite. (I won’t address the allegorical view for obvious reasons.)

In John 6:28-29 Jesus was asked what works God requires of us. Jesus answered, “Believe in the One He has sent.” With a perfect (might I say Heaven sent?) opportunity to list everything that God expects from us, Jesus mentioned only this. If this is God’s only required work than being judged according to our works could simply mean judged according to whether we believe or not.

We humans need to get over our self importance. From my reading of the Bible it seems like throughout history we’ve distinguished ourselves primarily by messing things up. God chooses to work through us out of love, but He definitely doesn’t need our help. He rewards believers with crowns because of our attitude of gratitude, not our results. Like he did with Adam and Eve, maybe God has given us only one rule. Believe in the One He has sent. Everything else comes after that, and with out it nothing else matters.

If that’s the case then the admired non-believing philanthropist and the reviled mass murderer are on equal footing. They both failed to fulfill God’s only requirement.

[Chris]

I wasn't talking about annihilation, but I dissagree that it isn't in the bible.

You can disagree all you want, but we don't allow that false teaching here. You'll have to take that somewhere else on the Internet, not here.

Being saved is not a license to live however you want. We are to live according to Gods word. We make choices every day in how we behave. While you are correct that none is perfect that doesn't absolve us to not and try to live according to the commands of the lord. That is faith with out works is dead.

No one ever advocated a license to sin because we are saved. That is putting the cart before the horse. The point is that none of us will live according to God's word, we all fall short. We are not to put a yoke on people's necks that they can't remove. That is what the authorities of Jesus' time did and that is what he jumped on them about. I do believe that once you are saved, you will not go around flaunting your sins and whatnot, but there will still be times we stumble. The apostle said it best when he said that he wanted to do what was good, but found himself stumbling. The harder he tried to do good, the worse he did. The sin nature is still in us, but we are waiting for the day of redemption.

God is the Judge. You oversimplify. God is not powerless to our whims. I agree that that the culmination of our choices either leads to eternal life and salvation or eternal separation. I only dissagree that the nature of that separation is never ending suffering and torment.

I dissagree because as you said it is a free choice. Do what I say or suffer never ending agony isn't a free choice. Just as someone demanding your watch with a gun to your head really isn't giving you a choice. You could say no, but really did you have a choice?

You're wrong here. God doesn't say do what I say or suffer never ending agony. I think you are the one who oversimplifies. God makes the entire situation known to us about sin and the consequences of sin. We can either choose to get saved or choose to go it another way on our own. God doesn't force that choice on us. He let's us make it ourselves. Just like God didn't make me choose to eat at McDonalds today as I was considering eating at Burger King and Taco Bell. I made the choice to eat at McDonalds. It's the same way with salvation and eternal life. You either accept the free gift of salvation or you don't. It really is as simple as that and it is our choice.

[Hannah]

I wasn't talking about annihilation, but I dissagree that it isn't in the bible.



Being saved is not a license to live however you want. We are to live according to Gods word. We make choices every day in how we behave. While you are correct that none is perfect that doesn't absolve us to not and try to live according to the commands of the lord. That is faith with out works is dead.



God is the Judge. You oversimplify. God is not powerless to our whims. I agree that that the culmination of our choices either leads to eternal life and salvation or eternal separation. I only dissagree that the nature of that separation is never ending suffering and torment.

I dissagree because as you said it is a free choice. Do what I say or suffer never ending agony isn't a free choice. Just as someone demanding your watch with a gun to your head really isn't giving you a choice. You could say no, but really did you have a choice?

Salvation starts a new relationship with God. Salvation through Christ takes care of the Sin that leads to death and you then are Born Again and given Eternal Life. This is a separate event to scriptures which talk about being Obedient to the Lord in our new Life and Walk with Him.

No one here is saying that Salvation gives you a licence to Sin. The Apostle Paul adresses this issue on a number of occassions. If we Sin after we are Saved we are still Saved but we should of course try to live in Obedience to the Lord.

RO 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

GAL 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

Also the Apostle Peter puts it this way:-

1PE 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. 2 As a result, he does not live the rest of his earthly life for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.

In James we learn that if we do Sin after we are Saved there is still forgiveness:-

1JN 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

1JN 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.[/U]

You make the FIRST Choice which is to Repent and Receive Salvation.

Then you live your New Life as a Child of God constantly making choices to live obedient lives. If you do fail then a provision has been made for you as well.

[luckyhouston]

Punishment: Eternal Or Temporary? | GraceThruFaith

Punishment: Eternal Or Temporary?

Q. This is a follow-up on the punishment forever question. Ever since I read about the view you discussed (a couple years ago actually in one of your articles) I’ve been looking for something concrete to back this up. The idea appeals to me humanly, and presents a view of God consistent with his love … However, I’m coming up dry.

Also, in light of Isaiah 66:24 and Mark 9:48 (and possibly 2 other vs in the KJV, I believe where it is repeated in the Mk 9 passage) I feel this is refuting the annihilation view. Is there another interpretation of “their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”. I’ve been wrestling with this now for about a year but wanted to find an answer through my own study. Can you help?

A. Among the three leading interpretations of Scripture pertaining to the destiny of unbelievers, the traditional view of eternal suffering is most consistent with Scripture. Those who like the conditional view point to the concept of being judged according to their works as being more in in line with God’s character, but they don’t have a good explanation for the verses you cite. (I won’t address the allegorical view for obvious reasons.)

In John 6:28-29 Jesus was asked what works God requires of us. Jesus answered, “Believe in the One He has sent.” With a perfect (might I say Heaven sent?) opportunity to list everything that God expects from us, Jesus mentioned only this. If this is God’s only required work than being judged according to our works could simply mean judged according to whether we believe or not.

We humans need to get over our self importance. From my reading of the Bible it seems like throughout history we’ve distinguished ourselves primarily by messing things up. God chooses to work through us out of love, but He definitely doesn’t need our help. He rewards believers with crowns because of our attitude of gratitude, not our results. Like he did with Adam and Eve, maybe God has given us only one rule. Believe in the One He has sent. Everything else comes after that, and with out it nothing else matters.

If that’s the case then the admired non-believing philanthropist and the reviled mass murderer are on equal footing. They both failed to fulfill God’s only requirement.

I don't think that we need to appeal to tradition. Just because that is what people have believed for a long time doesn't make it right. If that were the case we should all be RCC.

Matthew 10:28 where Christ speaks of the wicked being destroyed "both body and soul

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are others as well. The concept of second death, but I can't remember the chapter and verse at the moment, but the words death and perish have difinate meanings. The Ancient Jews believed in Shoel and did not think the wicked got eternal life, but also didn't believe in eternal suffering.

There is no need to be so wrapped up in ideas because of tradition. That God won't torture us for being flawed is good. God is great and tuely just.

You can disagree all you want, but we don't allow that false teaching here. You'll have to take that somewhere else on the Internet, not here.

It isn't a false teaching if it is true. This is a complex issue, and you seem to have a lot of emotion wrapped up into it. I understand that, but you aren't God, and thus not perfect. If you ban those who might honestly dissagree and who point to the scripture then you are in line with the ancient RCC or other cult like groups. You are not the decider of truth. Do not fall to the sin of pride. Or raising your opinion to be equal with God.