Calculating the start of the 7 year tribulation....

[davebfl]

Having already been fooled once in my life (big time) by supposed men of knowlege ("Late Great Planet Earth", etc.), I am reluctant to post this. But, a watchman on the wall who says nothing is useless....

First of all, a Biblical generation IS NOT 40 years. The Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years - until that generation of adult males expired normally. BUT, Israelite males do not become adults until their 13th birthday. Thus, a generation is 52-53 years.

To further prove/disprove this obvioius math, I took all of the Old Testament "begats" (How old the men were when they had their first sons, divided by the generations, etc.) and came up the with the figure of 51.7 years. How this is modified by the Jewish calendar year versus our modern calendar I have no idea.

Jerusalem would be downtrodden by the Gentiles, until the TIMES OF THE GENTILES IS FULFILLED. 1967 is of course, when Israel retook the city of Jerusalem.
THIS generation will not pass until all things.......

To be a datesetter could put me in the same boat as the idiots who misled me 30 years ago. God is most soveriegn, and with new people coming into the Church continually, ........ you can figure the rest.

BUT, by strict math and the very real possibility of correct interpretation herein, to see some kind of imposed Israeli boundary/security by the UN (or equivalent) within the next couple of years - smart people should soon join me on the wall.


Also consider: The "Ancient" Old Testament seems to indicate an average lifespan of 100 years or more. Psalms tells us that the average lifespan is 70-80 years.

I am no prophet, and God has not given me any special message in this regard - other than what is written herein.

[Soon]

Welcome Dave,

While no man (nor woman) can be sure when the tribulation will commence, it certainly appears that it shouldn't be too far off. And if so, the Mandatory Christian Evacuation Notice would also have to be posted "soon" as well.

Indeed, the bullseye appears to be drawn clearer and clearer as each of the critical events related to God's chosen people occur. For example, if one calculates Adam (4000BC) + 6000 years, Jesus + 2000 years, Balfour Declaration (1917) + 100 years, Israel (1948) + 70 years, Jerusalem (1967) + 50 years, Jewish Quarter (1969) + 7 x 2520 days, these all end up in roughly the same general timeframe.

In addition, and to lend credence to the fact that we appear to be near, all of the sign posts are here. Just a few such signs include the rise of EU, nations against Israel, surrounding countries clammoring for Israel's destruction including a psycopath president in Iran, global financial crisis, nuclear weapons (but this list can go on and on).

And yet, it still remains a mystery and so it must. After all, many have predicted a year, or even a day such as Harold Camping, only to have failed. God shall keep the ark open for as many years as He so chooses or He may shut it before I finish this sentence (nope - oh well). We will just have to wait and see. God's perfect will shall eventually be fully revealed.

In the meantime, we should keep looking up - for Jesus shall call us up at exactly the right time. That we can count on. In the meantime, we need to continue to witness to the lost and try to be the example Jesus wishes us to be (though no one is perfect).

[mattfivefour]

In the meantime, we should keep looking up - for Jesus shall call us up at exactly the right time. That we can count on. In the meantime, we need to continue to witness to the lost and try to be the example Jesus wishes us to be ...

Absolutely! Excellent summary.

[davebfl]

SOON:

Greetings and thanks to you in our Lord

I truly thank you for your reply.

I'm more than familiar with ALMOST all of the "math" you list.

The reasoning for and computation about the "Jewish Quarter" I am not familiar with. This is not a challenge, in any way (as it really doesn't matter - the point[s] have been made). But I am curious.

Thanks again, hope to see a response, and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Maranatha.

Dave

[GlennO]

Davebfl - Welcome!

Some pertinent links from past conversations:


The Olivet Discourse

Occupy or Occupied

The Fig Tree Has Budded....What is a Generation?

[Soon]

SOON:

Greetings and thanks to you in our Lord

I truly thank you for your reply.

I'm more than familiar with ALMOST all of the "math" you list.

The reasoning for and computation about the "Jewish Quarter" I am not familiar with. This is not a challenge, in any way (as it really doesn't matter - the point[s] have been made). But I am curious.

Thanks again, hope to see a response, and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Maranatha.

Dave

I would be delighted to. I will do so in the morning via PM (publicly discussing this is counterproductive). For now, it is time to sleep!!

[davebfl]

Hey GlennO:

Thanks for responding. Boy o boy, that is a lot of reading. It's amazing how Jesus gives us a few sentences, and we can make a book of it. This is not a cut, I do it myself.

You are most certainly correct in saying that the original apostles/disciples looked upon all from a Jewish/Talmud/whatever perspective. I may be wrong, but I see some of the mystery of God's revelation to us as the church itself (US - the period of grace - not even hinted at in the Old Testament).

But in any regard, God's promise to HIS chosen WILL prevail. I had a wife once, ..... that's another story.
HE chose Israel, and made a lot of promises.

By what you say, we should be looking for the climax of the "church age" and the renewing of God's appeal to HIS chosen soon. That last 7 years of Daniel, the EXACT number of years of a generation, the fluid nature of all of this......

I tell you and all who read this what is in my heart, mind, and (I don't know - never done this before).

I see myself on a wall. I see something in the distance. I shout a warning.

You have heard my warning. If I am wrong, and it is a firefly, forgive me. Please don't give me umpteen pages of stuff that almost agrees.

Pray. Seek God. I feel confident in putting this forth.



Dave




PS: "IT" just hit me out of the air. Anyone reading this, please KNOW that I am a Christian, Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He died for our sins, IS resurrected, and the hope of ALL mankind rests in HIM - through the mainifested love and grace of our God.
Anybody can say anything on an open website - even here.
I sense an issue with this going forward.
Be wary of anybody posting stuff under my name who does not say "Jesus is Lord", "Jesus died for our sins." "Jesus rose from the dead on the third day." "Jesus is the Messiah".

[GlennO]

No worries brother.....God's Got It! He will not disappoint!

[DanLW]

I've heard your general idea before, and I want to say it was in an article on the RaptureReady website. Basically, the writer came up with 70-80 years for the scriptural average length of a generation based on Psalm 90:10. Then, counting forward from 1948 and again from 1968, he put forth a couple "no later than" dates for the Rapture, with the caveat that those dates only apply if he is correct. He leaned towards a 70 year generation, so the no later than dates he came up with were 2018 if 1948 is the beginning of the generation, and 2038, if the retaking of Jerusalem in 1968 was the beginning.

Of course, if by reason of strength this generation is 80 years, then our upper limit for 1948 would be 2028, and our upper limit for 1968 would be 2048.

He discarded 40 years for a generation because the rapture didn't happen before 1988 (ever heard of the book "88 Reasons for 1988"?), nor did it happen before 2008.

If were still here on January 1 2049, I'll try to remember this, and I will post a reply to this thread explaining why that upper limit was wrong.

As for my upper limit... no later than July 23, 8246202846555392023460392714 AD.

[Sean Osborne]

There no need to calculate that date - it is irrelevant to us.

For those who are left behind, The Word unambiguously tells of the time and the things that will herald the start of Daniel's 70th Week.

[Truth Files]

No one can know the dating of the beginning of the Lord's hour [time] of trial

Many have tried and failed at this attempt [Examples: William Miller; Charles Russell; Herbert w. Armstrong]

All were false prophets ..... and when their date settings did not come to pass they reinvented their stories

And watch this one fail predicted by Harold Camping ..... May 21, 2011

[Matthew 24:36-39; 1Thessalonians 5:1-9; Acts 1:6-7; 2Peter 3:10; Revelation 6:12-17; 16:15]

"This generation" ..... the Lord is addressing a remnant part of national Israel that will be in the land at the time of the end ..... and all of the things projected for the 70th week in His discourse will take place within it

[Soon]

Dave - I don't want to hijack this thread. I'll PM you this afternoon.

[Pam]

I think it is extremely exciting to think we could be that generation to experience the great day of rapture . . . to escape death . . . to be a living participant in such a great event. I hope to be one of those, but . . .as we know for any of us, 'our' day could be today.
We will still get to experience it, as the Lord tells us, the dead in Christ shall rise first.

For sure, whenever it happens it will be a glorious day!

Although we look and desire that day to come quickly and to hopefully be living participants, our focus now should be on winning others to Christ and living our lives for him.

Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus.

[GlennO]

Sean said:

There no need to calculate that date - it is irrelevant to us.

For those who are left behind, The Word unambiguously tells of the time and the things that will herald the start of Daniel's 70th Week.

[GlennO]

The Olivet Discourse post #30 (Sean Osborne)

In the context of Matthew 24:34 the Greek word genea (G1074) means begotten of, fathered by, or native to one lineage of people, one nation: Israel

The Olivet Discourse post #11 (Mattfivefour)

Of γενεά (genea, pronounced ghen-eh-AH) Moulton & Millligan note that "The collective sense of the word—involved in its historic relation to γένος (genos, pronounced GHEN-oss and commonly used in the papyri in reference to a 'species' or a 'class of things')—is normal throughout, and survives in the Modern Greek γενιά (genia, pronounced ghen-ee-AH) which means 'race' or 'lineage'."

Vine says γενεά is "connected to γίνομαι (ginomai, pronounced GHIN-oh-my), 'to become', primarily signifies 'a begetting', or 'a birth'; hence γενεά means that which has been begotten, a family, or successive members of a genealogy (as in Matthew 1:17), or of a race of people, possessed of similar characteristics, pursuits, etc., (of a bad character)." He then adds "Or, of the whole multitude of men living at the same time, and especially those of the Jewish race living at the same period. Transferred from people to the time in which they lived, the word came to mean 'an age'."

Earle agrees with that latter (ie: 'an age') comment for he quotes Buechsel who wrote "It has the sense of 'age' or 'period'", and is so quoted in the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament.

Richards says γενεά through its plural γενεῶν "may indicate the distant past (Colossians 1:26) or endless future (Luke1:50), or it may identify a specific historic time (Acts 13:36; Hebrews 3:10). The most common NT use of γενεά is in the phrase 'this generation'. Jesus described his generation as adulterous, wicked, unbelieving, perverse, and sinful. Paul speaks of his own life among 'a crooked and depraved generation' (Philippians 2:15). This is clearly a metaphorical use, intended to characterize and classify those who heard Jesus' message and rejected Him. 'This generation' is that group of people whose hearts remained hardened to God. It is a type of people, not the totality of those alive in Jesus' day or at any other particular time."

Dr. Richards then goes on to say "Two interpretations (of Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32) seem possible, given the way the phrase is used in the Gospels and in Acts: 1) 'This generation' in the Gospels is unbelieving Israel, Jesus' own people, who did not receive Him (John 1:11). so Jesus may be promising the preservation of the Jews as a distinct people until the time of the end foretold by the OT prophets. 2) 'This generation' as a class is unbelieving and perverse. Jesus may have been speaking of the persistence of unbelief throughout human history, until unbelief is shattered and the rebellious are judged at Jesus' appearing. Either view seems justified linguistically, theologically, and by the witness of history."

All of those authorities are among the most respected in the world in theological circles and among those who are expert in Biblical Greek. Take your pick. Or, better yet, ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth of the words in your life. I note that none of them relates the verse about "this generation" to the one that sees the return of Israel to its historic land and its repossession of the holy city. This is an interpretation that is derived from the study of a number of scriptures in the prophets combined with what Jesus says here. I have always hewed to this belief ... but I must be honest and admit that it is largely because the Lindseys and LaHayes and all of those popular eschatologists all teach that. I am beginning to wonder, though, whether that might be eisegesis. I do not think so. I think we are seeing the signs. But I am going to prayerfully study this entire matter again. I don't want to be wrong ... or, at least, I do not want to teach wrong.

Having said all of the above, I can safely say that Jesus will come when the Father sends Him and our job is to be so looking for his imminent arrival that we continually work faithfully in whatever field He has placed us until such time as He comes for us. It is the one who is faithful to His Master's command who will be rewarded. The unfaithful will be punished. Surely that is the clear and incontrovertible teaching of Matthew 24:42-51!

And what was His command? Proclaim the gospel and feed the sheep. In other words, be witnesses of Him (which must be in our lives not just our words) and build one another up.

Let's keep our focus where it should be.

Mat 24:32-35
(32) "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.
(33) So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.
(34) Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
(35) Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.


E. The Parable of the Fig Tree (24:32-35) [W. MacDonald Beliver’s Bible Commentary]
24:32 “Now learn this parable from the fig tree.” Again our Lord draws a spiritual lesson from nature. When the branches of the fig tree become green and tender, you know that summer is near. We have seen that the fig tree pictures the nation of Israel (21:18-22). For hundreds of years Israel has been dormant, with no government of its own, no land, no temple, no priesthood—no sign of national life. The people have been scattered throughout the world.

Then, in 1948, Israel became a nation with its own land, government, currency, stamps, etc. Spiritually, the nation is still barren and cold; there is no fruit for God. But nationally, we might say that its branches are green and tender.

24:33 “So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, at the very doors!” Israel's emergence as a nation means not only that the beginning of the Tribulation is near, but that the Lord Himself is near, at the very doors!
If Christ's coming to reign is so near, how much more imminent is the Rapture of the church? If we already see shadows of events that must precede His appearing in glory, how much closer are we to the first phase of His Parousia, or Advent (1Th_4:13-18)?

24:34 After referring to the fig tree, Jesus added, “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.” “This generation” could not mean the people living when Christ was on earth; they have all passed away, yet the events of chapter 24 have not taken place. What then did our Lord mean by “this generation”? There are two plausible explanations.
F. W. Grant and others believe the thought is: “the very generation that sees the beginning of these things will see the end.” The same people who see the rise of Israel as a nation (or who see the beginning of the Tribulation), will see the Lord Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven to reign.

The other explanation is that “generation” should be understood as race. This is a legitimate translation of the Greek word; it means men of the same stock, breed, or family (Mat_12:45; Mat_23:35-36). So Jesus was predicting that the Jewish race would survive to see all these things accomplished. Their continued survival, despite atrocious persecution, is a miracle of history. {This rings true to me}

But I think there is an added thought. In Jesus' day, “this generation” was a race that steadfastly refused to acknowledge Him as Messiah. I think He was predicting that national Israel would continue in its Christ-rejecting condition till His Second Coming. Then all rebellion will be crushed, and only those who willingly submit to His rule will be spared to enter the Millennium.

24:35 To emphasize the unfailing character of His predictions, Jesus added that heaven and earth would pass away but His words would by no means pass away. In speaking of heaven passing away, He was referring to the stellar and atmospheric heavens—the blue firmament above us—not to that heaven which is the dwelling place of God (2Co_12:2-4). The dissolution of the heaven and the earth is described in 2Pe_3:10-13 and mentioned again in Rev_20:11.

Much has been made of the term “generation” used in Matt 23:36 and 24:34. It seems there is something that compels us to try and solve the unsolvable. I am becoming convinced this preoccupation with the Rapture/70th Week date/event is not productive and may even draw us into sin. If we are told in scripture no one knows the day or hour but the Father why do we obsess?

[davebfl]

I most certainly agree. No one knows the day or the hour.
But we are to have (or pray for) wisdom, and encouraged to recognize the signs of the times.

Is a generation a race? Is Egypt a spritual empire? Is the fig tree the dead Israel? Is the budding leaf the people of Israel or Jerusalem?

I wish someone out there was an Elijah, who could provide all of the answers. Many spirit filled and spirit led Christains out there have many different "takes" on all of this. And maybe there IS an Elijah (of sorts) out there - but with so many abject opinions, how would one like me know for sure?

Looking back into the Old Testament, from our current age, it is EASY to see the Old Testament prophecies concerning Christ. However, were I to have lived my life PRIOR to that day in Bethlehem 2000 years + ago, I doubt I would have recognized nor understood those same prophecies.

I read on another thread herein that there's some kind of Muslim march set up for May 15 (next week), and that this is the 63rd anniversary of the REformation of Israel. The thought of 70 - 7 is presented. I guess we'll know about that one pretty soon.

Remember the elder who praised God upon seeing the baby Jesus at the temple steps? HE knew in advance what was happening - to some extent. It almost went unnoticed.

In any regard, all are right in saying that we should live our lives daily as though our last breath on this earth could happen at any moment. Because, regardless as to when a rapture occurs, it will be SOMEBODY's last breath before this post is finished.

From the perspective of eternity, our lifespan here - regardless as to length - is but the blink of an eye.

God Bless you all. It's fun being a watchman - and I'll warn you of any more fireflys that I might see.

Pray for wisdom. Pray for one another (me too, please). And no matter what happens, I hope to see you all soon.......


Dave

[Hannah]

I don't need to know when the Tribulation will start because I know we are being Raptured out before hand.

[Sean Osborne]

I am becoming convinced this preoccupation with the Rapture/70th Week date/event is not productive and may even draw us into sin. If we are told in scripture no one knows the day or hour but the Father why do we obsess?

GlennO,

I agree 10,000%... this obsessing over something which cannot be known by anyone but the Father is beyond ridiculous and runs counter to the commandment of our Lord:

Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Matthew 28:18-20

[LdyinChrist]

Quote Originally Posted by GlennO View Post
I am becoming convinced this preoccupation with the Rapture/70th Week date/event is not productive and may even draw us into sin. If we are told in scripture no one knows the day or hour but the Father why do we obsess?

Sean said:
GlennO,

I agree 10,000%... this obsessing over something which cannot be known by anyone but the Father is beyond ridiculous and runs counter to the commandment of our Lord:

That hit me as kinda funny since the name of this forum is RAPTURE FORUMS! LOL

[Soon]

Discussion is not the same as obsession. No one posting in this thread is saying they KNOW when the Rapture will occur.

Question: If God didn't want us to discuss potential timing, why would He give us such an obvious hint as to timing in Matthew 24? IMO, there is a huge difference between saying one "knows" the day & hour versus discussing WHY we may be in the season as per the hints given by Jesus.

Note that I also agree with LdyinChrist when she says "That hit me as kinda funny since the name of this forum is RAPTURE FORUMS! LOL". Well put!!