"fulness be come in" is NOT "full number brought in."

[Pat29]

Fullness is NOT full number.
John 1:16 And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.
If you change "fullness" to "full number," in the above verse you end up with nonsense.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25)

Bibles like the NIV cause confusion, when they say, "...until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."
Such a verse causes us to think that there is only a certain designated number of Gentiles that God will allow into the Church for salvation, which is termed "full number."

Not true at all. Fullness of the Gentiles means that when the Gentiles come into their fulness, or full stature, or full power, then the blindness of Israel will be lifted. When the Gentiles, the Romans, defeated Israel in AD70, the Romans were in their fullness. Of course, this was after all the wicked Jewish unbelievers perished in the burning city and temple. Their blindness naturally went with them.

[Chris]

Reaching The Full Number | GraceThruFaith

Reaching The Full Number

Q. If the fullness of the Gentiles being saved must arrive before the rapture occurs, what about all the people that are continually being born that need to be saved, how could the gentile number ever be final?

A. Paul borrowed the phrase “full number” in Romans 11:25 from nautical terminology. It didn’t mean the full number of sailors in the general sense, just the pre-determined number required to man a particular ship. Just so, the full number of Gentiles is simply the pre-determined number required to complete the Church.

There were believers before the Church and there will be believers after the Church, but there is apparently a specific number pre-determined to be in the Church. When that number is reached the Church will disappear.

[Robert]

Fullness is NOT full number.
John 1:16 And of his fullness have all we received, and grace for grace.
If you change "fullness" to "full number," in the above verse you end up with nonsense.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25)

Bibles like the NIV cause confusion, when they say, "...until the full number of the Gentiles has come in."
Such a verse causes us to think that there is only a certain designated number of Gentiles that God will allow into the Church for salvation, which is termed "full number."

Not true at all. Fullness of the Gentiles means that when the Gentiles come into their fulness, or full stature, or full power, then the blindness of Israel will be lifted. When the Gentiles, the Romans, defeated Israel in AD70, the Romans were in their fullness. Of course, this was after all the wicked Jewish unbelievers perished in the burning city and temple. Their blindness naturally went with them.

Sorry, but that doesn't mesh with what the greek says.

The word "fullness" in greek is pléróma (play'-ro-mah), which means:


"(a) a fill, fullness; full complement; supply, patch, supplement, (b) fullness, filling, fulfillment, completion."

In both uses, one is a full number, the other is the completion of their time. Neither lends itself to "full power, stature, etc.", or Paul would have used a different term to denote that. Paul did not write ambiguously or hazily; he was precise and the Lord used him in that manner.

[Meg]

Is it possible this is a reference to the full purpose of the gentiles?

[Chris]

Is it possible this is a reference to the full purpose of the gentiles?

Perhaps it is both.

[arapahoepark]

4138. ??????? (pléróma) -- fullness, a filling up

[GlennO]

Rom 11:25
For I would not ... that ye should be ignorant of this mystery — The word “mystery,” so often used by our apostle, does not mean (as with us) something incomprehensible,
but “something before kept secret, either wholly or for the most part, and now only fully disclosed” (compare Rom_16:25; 1Co_2:7-10; Eph_1:9, Eph_1:10; Eph_3:3-6, Eph_3:9, Eph_3:10).

lest ye should be wise in your own conceits — as if ye alone were in all time coming to be the family of God.

that blindness — “hardness”

in part is happened to — “hath come upon”

Israel — that is, hath come partially, or upon a portion of Israel.

until the fulness of the Gentiles be — “have”

come in — that is, not the general conversion of the world to Christ, as many take it; for this would seem to contradict the latter part of this chapter, and throw the national recovery of Israel too far into the future: besides, in Rom_11:15, the apostle seems to speak of the receiving of Israel, not as following, but as contributing largely to bring about the general conversion of the world - but, “until the Gentiles have had their full time of the visible Church all to themselves while the Jews are out, which the Jews had till the Gentiles were brought in.” (See Luk_21:24).

Rom 11:25
(ESV) Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

(KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(KJV+) ForG1063 I wouldG2309 not,G3756 brethren,G80 that yeG5209 should be ignorantG50 of thisG5124 mystery,G3466 lestG3363 ye should beG5600 wiseG5429 inG3844 your own conceits;G1438 thatG3754 blindnessG4457 inG575 partG3313 is happenedG1096 to Israel,G2474 untilG891 G3757 theG3588 fulnessG4138 of theG3588 GentilesG1484 be come in.G1525

[Sean Osborne]

fulness πλήρωμα plērōma

1) that which is (has been) filled

a) a ship inasmuch as it is filled (i.e. manned) with sailors, rowers, and soldiers

b) in the NT, the body of believers, as that which is filled with the presence, power, agency, riches of God and of Christ

of the Gentiles

Paul uses the term for Gentile Christians

be come in εἰσέρχομαι eiserchomai

to come in: to enter - become the Bride of Christ.

Christians after the Harpazo are not the Bride of Christ... they are the Tribulation Saints.

Big difference.

[Pat29]

Is it possible this is a reference to the full purpose of the gentiles?

Meg, I think you expressed it better.
Actually, what the verse says is that this was the beginning of the day of the Gentile, versus the day of Israel. As one went out, the other came in. Luke 19:42 "Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." The wording of this verse suggests that "thy day" would not be much longer.
Today it is clear that Gentiles (unbelievers) dominate the world scene. Certainly, neither the Church, nor the Jews do. And that "transition," if you will, happened around AD70.

[arapahoepark]

Meg, I think you expressed it better.
Actually, what the verse says is that this was the beginning of the day of the Gentile, versus the day of Israel. As one went out, the other came in. Luke 19:42 "Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes." The wording of this verse suggests that "thy day" would not be much longer.
Today it is clear that Gentiles (unbelievers) dominate the world scene. Certainly, neither the Church, nor the Jews do. And that "transition," if you will, happened around AD70.

I am not sure what you are getting at....

[Kenny64]

This is a wonderful thread for learning.. Thanks to all for the posts.
I enjoyed this one immensely.

[Pat29]

I am not sure what you are getting at....

"Full number brought in" always leaves me thinking that there may not be as much room in heaven as we expect. But we know that this cannot be true; God would not create more people than heaven can accommodate. So it cannot be that the blindness of Israel has anything to do with how many Gentiles are brought into the Church. I suspect that the KJV is an accurate translation, and will bring us closer to the truth than some of the newer Bibles, although proving it may be a challenge.

Since the different Bibles can't agree on what is meant by fullness of the Gentiles be come in, then we cannot know when the blindness of Israel ends. Perhaps if we knew when the blindness began, then we might have a clue. Any ideas?

[GlennO]

God knows and God's Got It

The purpose and the number is known by the One who ordained it.

[SonSeeker]

God knows and God's Got It

The purpose and the number is known by the One who ordained it.

Right on, Bro!

[Pat29]

God knows and God's Got It

The purpose and the number is known by the One who ordained it.

No question about that. But our purpose is to try and know as much as God wants us to know. And, because I, for one, have not been given the insight to know anything but what I read, the Scriptures must be consistent and logical throughout; God has never, to my knowledge, whispered anything into my ear. And if He did, and it contradicted what He had written, what should I believe?

Here is an example: I was told that the NASB is "closer to what the Lord said than the KJV." And it renders Luke 1:9 like this, "Acording to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Did he flip a coin, or throw dice? That's what "chosen by lot" means to me.

On the other hand, the KJV says this:
"According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord" (Luke 1:9). This means that it was his turn to burn incense. That is much clearer to me.
What so you think?

[readytogo]

From answers.com: Drawing lots in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, lots were cast in order to reveal the choice, and therefore will, of God. The High Priest carried and black rock and a white rock, called Urim (Brilliance or Divine) and Thummim (Absolute Truth), in his breastplate. When casting l a ot, the Jews would entreat the Lord God to answer a serious question that had no human resolution. Someone previously stated that it had everything to do with chance, while (contextually speaking) chance had NOTHING to do with it. God revealed His final answer through this sacred process. This process was later rendered obsolete after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by which man was made able to talk to God directly by faith.

[arapahoepark]

From answers.com: Drawing lots in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, lots were cast in order to reveal the choice, and therefore will, of God. The High Priest carried and black rock and a white rock, called Urim (Brilliance or Divine) and Thummim (Absolute Truth), in his breastplate. When casting l a ot, the Jews would entreat the Lord God to answer a serious question that had no human resolution. Someone previously stated that it had everything to do with chance, while (contextually speaking) chance had NOTHING to do with it. God revealed His final answer through this sacred process. This process was later rendered obsolete after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by which man was made able to talk to God directly by faith.

I believe it was albert einstien who said: Coincidences are God's way of staying anonymous.

That was just an add on to what was said is all, so off topic....

[Sean Osborne]

No question about that. But our purpose is to try and know as much as God wants us to know. And, because I, for one, have not been given the insight to know anything but what I read, the Scriptures must be consistent and logical throughout; God has never, to my knowledge, whispered anything into my ear. And if He did, and it contradicted what He had written, what should I believe?

Here is an example: I was told that the NASB is "closer to what the Lord said than the KJV." And it renders Luke 1:9 like this, "Acording to the custom of the priestly office, he was chosen by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense." Did he flip a coin, or throw dice? That's what "chosen by lot" means to me.

On the other hand, the KJV says this:
"According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord" (Luke 1:9). This means that it was his turn to burn incense. That is much clearer to me.
What so you think?

Verse 9 is not exlusive in and of itself.

Verse 8 through 11 are also there to understand the full meaning being conveyed.

So it was, that while he was serving as priest before God in the order of his division, according to the custom of the priesthood, his lot fell to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. And the whole multitude of the people was praying outside at the hour of incense.

The word "lot' in the Greek is "lagchanō" and means it was a task the performer of which was determined by the casting of lots - the lucky winner got to perform the honored function that had originally been Aaron's duty as the first among the priests of Israel, as we seen in Exudus 30:7-8

"Aaron shall burn on it sweet incense every morning; when he tends the lamps, he shall burn incense on it. And when Aaron lights the lamps at twilight, he shall burn incense on it, a perpetual incense before the LORD throughout your generations."

The casting of lots is a procedure that God Himself instructed the Israelites to undertake in the Book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). It is a proceedure by which they might determine His will.

1 Chronicles 24:5, 1 Chronicles 23:31, Joshua 18:6-10 and Jonah 1:7 are OT examples of this practice.

Acts 1:26 and Matthew 27:35 are New Testament exapmles in addition to that in Like 1:9.

[Twinklingofaneye]

From answers.com: Drawing lots in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament, lots were cast in order to reveal the choice, and therefore will, of God. The High Priest carried and black rock and a white rock, called Urim (Brilliance or Divine) and Thummim (Absolute Truth), in his breastplate. When casting l a ot, the Jews would entreat the Lord God to answer a serious question that had no human resolution. Someone previously stated that it had everything to do with chance, while (contextually speaking) chance had NOTHING to do with it. God revealed His final answer through this sacred process. This process was later rendered obsolete after the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ by which man was made able to talk to God directly by faith.

Ready, I would not use answers.com to get anything Biblical! I have seen answers on this site that are TOTALLY WRONG!

[Pat29]

Verse 9 is not exlusive in and of itself.

Verse 8 through 11 are also there to understand the full meaning being conveyed.



The word "lot' in the Greek is "lagchanō" and means it was a task the performer of which was determined by the casting of lots - the lucky winner got to perform the honored function that had originally been Aaron's duty as the first among the priests of Israel, as we seen in Exudus 30:7-8



The casting of lots is a procedure that God Himself instructed the Israelites to undertake in the Book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). It is a proceedure by which they might determine His will.

1 Chronicles 24:5, 1 Chronicles 23:31, Joshua 18:6-10 and Jonah 1:7 are OT examples of this practice.

Acts 1:26 and Matthew 27:35 are New Testament exapmles in addition to that in Like 1:9.

Here again, it depends on the Bible translation. Personally - and this is my own opinin - the KJV, even though archaic, is clearer. If indeed this priest cast lots, he seems to have won every time since no other priest was mentioned. He was either very lucky, or God wanted him always to burn incense, in which case having them to cast lots thinking that the other priests might have a chance would have been giving them false hope each time. But I leave it at that.