"fulness be come in" is NOT "full number brought in."

[tjplaw]

The Divinely inspired original Greek-language texts written by Matthew, John, Paul and Jude plus the examples in Revelation (which came directly from God) all use the word harpazo.

Are you trying to tell us that the Holy Spirit was and is pretentious in this usage within the Living Word of God?

Aside from the Latin Vulgate written by St. Jerome, show me just one example of the word "rapture" in Scripture.

Why not just call it Rapture, the majority of Christians know what this word means instead of the greek word Harpazo. Try speaking instead of attempting to impress others.

[Yehoshua]

Why not just call it Rapture, the majority of Christians know what this word means instead of the greek word Harpazo. Try speaking instead of attempting to impress others.

Why do you speak so loftily among brothers and sisters? remember paul's exhortation on how to properly direct someone into truth, if you think the person doesnt have the full understanding of the subject.

And why do you judge people's intentions based solely on what is written on a website? Have you forgotten the Lord said "judge not so that you shall not be judged, and with the same measure you judge you will be judged"?

I appeal to you to, even if youre right, to be more loving in your exhortation unto the brethren, for if youre not building up the brothers and sisters, youre certainly tearing down. And guess who's camp loves tearing things down....

Love in the Lord.

[mattfivefour]

Good post, Jehoshua. I agree. Whenever I see someone who names the name of Christ add a comment aimed at another person, I see not Christ but that person's flesh. And the flesh is always ugly! Remember that every word we speak will be the way in which we are judged. (Matthew 12:36) If we feel pricked and offended by a brother or sister's words and feel the need to strike back, then I humbly suggest we need to examine our own walk. Christ did not so operate; nor should we.

"Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous: Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." (1 Peter 3:8-9)

"This is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously." (2 Peter 2:19-23)

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds." (Hebrews 12:1-3)

Despise God's Word at your peril.

[Soon]

Tjplaw: If you have unresolved issues with someone on a separate thread, leave it in that thread or deal with it in a PM. Viewing "snobbery" in isolation leaves a very poor impression with outsiders, especially for those who may not be aware of previous history that may have taken place in other threads.

In other words, we must ALL, including me, become more Christ-like in our ability to forgive one another and be compassionate in our exhortations. After all, we are all brothers and sisters here and need to be grateful that we all have enough in common that we are actually enjoying being on a website as "controversial" as this one.

God bless...

[Sean Osborne]

Why not just call it Rapture, the majority of Christians know what this word means instead of the greek word Harpazo. Try speaking instead of attempting to impress others.

tjplaw,

I am not here to impress anyone. I have always used and will always use the word Harpazo. My response was to Pat29 who asked me a direct question: "What is "Harpazo?""

I'd also like to remind you of Rapture Forum Rule # 23 (emphasis added):

[23] No posting in foreign languages. This is an English speaking board, please communicate in English, type proper english with correct letters, use a dictionary when necessary. Greek and Hebrew words are an exception for clarifying scripture. Any other foreign words must be associated with their definition. Informal writing is allowed.

[myinnuendo999]

Pat

I am amazed at the level of scholarly knowledge on this website. And it frightens me. Whereas before, I thought I could take my Bible, read passages, and in the simplicity that is in Christ, believe what I have read, now I find that if I don't understand Greek, and don't know a lot of ancient history, I really don't know my Bible at all. This is more than I can fathom!

Dear precious one, don't let man's intellectual knowledge frighten you. We are ALL equal at the cross and YES it really IS SIMPLE, so simple is the simplicity we have in Christ, even a Child can come to know Jesus just the same as an astrophysicist because it has to do with the fact that not everyone of us has brains but everyone has a HEART. -----1Cr 1:26 "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.


In Fact when Jesus chose his followers he went contrary to man's ways.. Look who he chose? Several dumb fishermen..

It's wise to let God's wisdom be your FEAR and not the fear of man. Yet, we should be willing to learn from men and women who ARE wise in the Greek, or Hebrew or whatever kind of erudite learning they have because it could be the GIFT that God has given them to use for the body of believers. "He who walks with the wise grows wise but a companion of fools suffers harm"--Proverbs 13:20..

The BEST thing is this, JESUS is who is so gentle and humble in heart and he has made a YOKE that specifically fits YOU and fits ME and no one else. HE knows all things and yet he is so kind and patient with us.

[Sean Osborne]

The problem with your argument, Sean, is that the Holy Spirit used Greek words throughout the passage.

Pat29,

That was no "argument."

No offense and with respect and on the contrary, what I wrote was a statement of literal Biblical fact coupled with a specific interrogative that I decided to pose to tjplaw.

My post was 100% consistent with the literal Word of God based upon the original Greek text Scripture.

Anyone who has an argument with that does not have an argument with what I wrote in that post, but rather with the literal Word of God.

[Pat29]

Pat29,

That was no "argument."

No offense and with respect and on the contrary, what I wrote was a statement of literal Biblical fact coupled with a specific interrogative that I decided to pose to tjplaw.

My post was 100% consistent with the literal Word of God based upon the original Greek text Scripture.

Anyone who has an argument with that does not have an argument with what I wrote in that post, but rather with the literal Word of God.

By argument I didn't really mean "argument." My apologies for the misunderstnding.

[tjplaw]

tjplaw,

I am not here to impress anyone. I have always used and will always use the word Harpazo. My response was to Pat29 who asked me a direct question: "What is "Harpazo?""

I'd also like to remind you of Rapture Forum Rule # 23 (emphasis added):

You also need to be reminded of the rules since in this thread alone you broke it several times.

[Sean Osborne]

You also need to be reminded of the rules since in this thread alone you broke it several times.

Nonsense my brother, that's just complete nonsense.

[Pat29]

This is just for kicks:
What if someone had a Bible, but didn't know anything about all the advanced theories of Bible interpretation, and exegesis, eisegesis(?), hermeneutics , and all of that; he just read the Bible in whatever language he knew, and figured that whatever it said, that's what it was trying to say. And he just happened to read Daniel 12:4, " But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." What he gets out of this verse is that the book will be sealed until the "time of the end." So, he figures that no one will understand Daniel until the time of the end, which teachers, preachers and all say is still a long way off, but they remind us that it is getting closer day by day (how profound!), and some day soon , we will understand what Daniel was writing about.

Although puzzled by the fact that there are virtually hundreds of commentaries in bookstores covering Daniel from front to back, he sets Daniel aside until "that day," and picks up the Gospel of Matthew, where he reads that Christ, shortly before going to the cross, warned His followers that when they happen to spot the abomination of desolation, they should get out just as fast as they can, and not even stop to pack a suitcase (Matthew 24:15). So this Bible reader, country boy that he is, figures right off the bat that this "abomination of desolation" can't be some kind of picture, or statue, or anything the "Antichrist" might set up in the temple, because there are going to be folks working out in the field, some on roof tops of their homes sipping tea, and so on. There is no way they could see inside the temple which could be a mile or two away. So this "abomination" has to be something big, and it has to kinda take some folks by surprise, since Jesus spoke in such a make haste manner. The armies of the Roman Empire, he thinks, qualify as abominable, being the heathen that they are. And, to stand in the holy place, they don't need to be inside the temple; anywhere on the grounds would be close enough. Even the city of Jerusalem is on holy ground. In fact all of Judea is considered holy. So, the Roman armies, marching on the city, get the vote.

But what really got this Bible reader's attention was that the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth, to His people, some five hundred years (give or take) after Daniel wrote the book and up to that time no one quoted from it. (If I'm wrong, sue me. But only in small claims court, please. In addition to having no education, I also have no money!)
But now the time came that Someone understood the book of Daniel. Could this have been the "time of the end?"

I know, I know! Jesus was God, and He could understand it at any time, but here is also what He said: "whoso readeth, let him understand:" That means that anyone who cared to read it would understand it.

That's good enough for me. At the time of the end, the book would be unsealed. That's one way to put it. Another way to say the same thing, when the book was unsealed, that would be the time of the end. So, all theological presuppositions aside, what does that tell us? Jesus first came to earth at the time of the end.

Here's a clue to make it all work out. All the times of the end, the last days, the last hours, and all that, weren't pointing to the end of the world in general, but to the end of "the Jewish world," or more specifically, the end of the day of Israel, and to the beginning of the day of the Gentile i.e., "the fullness of the Gentile be come in", so to speak..

Oh, by the way. If we are concerned about the Jews, not to worry! All the faithful Jews were raptured and taken into heaven, and all the Old Testament tribes were resurrected, and taken into heaven about AD70. The twelve apostles are seated on 12 thrones, in Jesus' throne (not ON His throne). Also David, who was resurrected with the 12 tribes and is seated on his throne, they all are, with Jesus, ruling and judging the 12 tribes of Israel in heaven (probably in the New Jerusalem).

That the "thousand years" needn't be exactly 1000 years can be proven by the writings of none other than the venerable Dr. Charles Riley himself, which means that the "Millennium" can be going on now. By all other accounts, it is.

But, again, take all this with a grain of salt. These are my thoughts. No one else may see it that way.

[Twinklingofaneye]

This is just for kicks:
What if someone had a Bible, but didn't know anything about all the advanced theories of Bible interpretation, and exegesis, eisegesis(?), hermeneutics , and all of that; he just read the Bible in whatever language he knew, and figured that whatever it said, that's what it was trying to say. And he just happened to read Daniel 12:4, " But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." What he gets out of this verse is that the book will be sealed until the "time of the end." So, he figures that no one will understand Daniel until the time of the end, which teachers, preachers and all say is still a long way off, but they remind us that it is getting closer day by day (how profound!), and some day soon , we will understand what Daniel was writing about.

Although puzzled by the fact that there are virtually hundreds of commentaries in bookstores covering Daniel from front to back, he sets Daniel aside until "that day," and picks up the Gospel of Matthew, where he reads that Christ, shortly before going to the cross, warned His followers that when they happen to spot the abomination of desolation, they should get out just as fast as they can, and not even stop to pack a suitcase (Matthew 24:15). So this Bible reader, country boy that he is, figures right off the bat that this "abomination of desolation" can't be some kind of picture, or statue, or anything the "Antichrist" might set up in the temple, because there are going to be folks working out in the field, some on roof tops of their homes sipping tea, and so on. There is no way they could see inside the temple which could be a mile or two away. So this "abomination" has to be something big, and it has to kinda take some folks by surprise, since Jesus spoke in such a make haste manner. The armies of the Roman Empire, he thinks, qualify as abominable, being the heathen that they are. And, to stand in the holy place, they don't need to be inside the temple; anywhere on the grounds would be close enough. Even the city of Jerusalem is on holy ground. In fact all of Judea is considered holy. So, the Roman armies, marching on the city, get the vote.

But what really got this Bible reader's attention was that the Lord Jesus Christ came to earth, to His people, some five hundred years (give or take) after Daniel wrote the book and up to that time no one quoted from it. (If I'm wrong, sue me. But only in small claims court, please. In addition to having no education, I also have no money!)
But now the time came that Someone understood the book of Daniel. Could this have been the "time of the end?"

I know, I know! Jesus was God, and He could understand it at any time, but here is also what He said: "whoso readeth, let him understand:" That means that anyone who cared to read it would understand it.

That's good enough for me. At the time of the end, the book would be unsealed. That's one way to put it. Another way to say the same thing, when the book was unsealed, that would be the time of the end. So, all theological presuppositions aside, what does that tell us? Jesus first came to earth at the time of the end.

Here's a clue to make it all work out. All the times of the end, the last days, the last hours, and all that, weren't pointing to the end of the world in general, but to the end of "the Jewish world," or more specifically, the end of the day of Israel, and to the beginning of the day of the Gentile i.e., "the fullness of the Gentile be come in", so to speak..

Oh, by the way. If we are concerned about the Jews, not to worry! All the faithful Jews were raptured and taken into heaven, and all the Old Testament tribes were resurrected, and taken into heaven about AD70. The twelve apostles are seated on 12 thrones, in Jesus' throne (not ON His throne). Also David, who was resurrected with the 12 tribes and is seated on his throne, they all are, with Jesus, ruling and judging the 12 tribes of Israel in heaven (probably in the New Jerusalem).

That the "thousand years" needn't be exactly 1000 years can be proven by the writings of none other than the venerable Dr. Charles Riley himself, which means that the "Millennium" can be going on now. By all other accounts, it is.

But, again, take all this with a grain of salt. These are my thoughts. No one else may see it that way.

I'll take the grain of salt. Your preterist views will not fly here. This is a pretribulation forum. Why do you feel it necessary to come to these forums to preach something that is not allowed? Did you read the rules? Your thinking is flawed and you are being led by an unclean spirit. I suggest you brush up on your Bible prophecy.

When did Rev. 9:1-12 happen?
When did Rev. 9:16 happen? (At that time there were not 200 million in the whole earth)
When did Rev. 13:18 happen?
When did all of Rev. 16 happen?
These are just a few problems with the preterist viewpoint.

Here is one more that hasn't happened yet.

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Luke 17:24).

[arapahoepark]

I'll take the grain of salt. Your preterist views will not fly here. This is a pretribulation forum. Why do you feel it necessary to come to these forums to preach something that is not allowed? Did you read the rules? Your thinking is flawed and you are being led by an unclean spirit. I suggest you brush up on your Bible prophecy.

When did Rev. 9:1-12 happen?
When did Rev. 9:16 happen? (At that time there were not 200 million in the whole earth)
When did Rev. 13:18 happen?
When did all of Rev. 16 happen?
These are just a few problems with the preterist viewpoint.

Here is one more that hasn't happened yet.

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Luke 17:24).

I agree!

Prophecy has consistently been literal, not allegorical (that only came about with the advent of Augustine and his classical education). Even in Isaiah nearly a century and a half before, it mentions the name Cyrus, as God's servant who will have the Jews go back to Israel....that literally happened...btw
As for the millennium....Satan has to be bound....there is so much contextual evidence for it's future and literal fulfillment. When are people living to be 1000 years old? Where is the new temple that Jesus stands in?

[Pat29]

I'll take the grain of salt. Your preterist views will not fly here. This is a pretribulation forum. Why do you feel it necessary to come to these forums to preach something that is not allowed? Did you read the rules? Your thinking is flawed and you are being led by an unclean spirit. I suggest you brush up on your Bible prophecy.

When did Rev. 9:1-12 happen?
When did Rev. 9:16 happen? (At that time there were not 200 million in the whole earth)
When did Rev. 13:18 happen?
When did all of Rev. 16 happen?
These are just a few problems with the preterist viewpoint.

Here is one more that hasn't happened yet.

For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day. (Luke 17:24).

Fear not! I said, take it with a grain of salt. To broaden the horizon of everyone on this forum, let them hear both sides. You ought to refute each and every point I made. Then they will be doubly convinced that pretribulationism is the right way to believe.

[arapahoepark]

Fear not! I said, take it with a grain of salt. To broaden the horizon of everyone on this forum, let them hear both sides. You ought to refute each and every point I made. Then they will be doubly convinced that pretribulationism is the right way to believe.

Haven't we? Basically in your other post you talk about reading the Bible....in fact that is it! A literal way of reading the Bible, as that's the only way to read it! Even ammillenialists point to the fact that if the Bible is taken literally, then dispensational theologians are correct in getting their eschatology.
Wow....interesting eh?

[Pat29]

Haven't we? Basically in your other post you talk about reading the Bible....in fact that is it! A literal way of reading the Bible, as that's the only way to read it! Even ammillenialists point to the fact that if the Bible is taken literally, then dispensational theologians are correct in getting their eschatology.
Wow....interesting eh?

What point are you trying to make?

[arapahoepark]

What point are you trying to make?

What point are you trying to make?

[Sean Osborne]

This is just for kicks:
What if someone had a Bible, but didn't know anything about all the advanced theories of Bible interpretation, and exegesis, eisegesis(?), hermeneutics , and all of that; he just read the Bible in whatever language he knew, and figured that whatever it said, that's what it was trying to say. And he just happened to read Daniel 12:4, " But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased." What he gets out of this verse is that the book will be sealed until the "time of the end." So, he figures that no one will understand Daniel until the time of the end, which teachers, preachers and all say is still a long way off, but they remind us that it is getting closer day by day (how profound!), and some day soon , we will understand what Daniel was writing about.

Although puzzled by the fact that there are virtually hundreds of commentaries in bookstores covering Daniel from front to back, he sets Daniel aside until "that day," and picks up the Gospel of Matthew, where he reads that Christ, shortly before going to the cross, warned His followers that when they happen to spot the abomination of desolation, they should get out just as fast as they can, and not even stop to pack a suitcase (Matthew 24:15). So this Bible reader, country boy that he is, figures right off the bat that this "abomination of desolation" can't be some kind of picture, or statue, or anything the "Antichrist" might set up in the temple, because there are going to be folks working out in the field, some on roof tops of their homes sipping tea, and so on. There is no way they could see inside the temple which could be a mile or two away. So this "abomination" has to be something big, and it has to kinda take some folks by surprise, since Jesus spoke in such a make haste manner. The armies of the Roman Empire, he thinks, qualify as abominable, being the heathen that they are. And, to stand in the holy place, they don't need to be inside the temple; anywhere on the grounds would be close enough. Even the city of Jerusalem is on holy ground. In fact all of Judea is considered holy. So, the Roman armies, marching on the city, get the vote.

Wow. That was completely underwhelming.

Every one here has long been aware that Preterist interpretations about the Word of God are preposterous, unBiblical nonsense; that Preterism is born of abject human stupidity unworthy of even a microsecond's worth of consideration because NONE OF IT is from the Holy Spirit; that Preterism is in reality pridefulness standing against the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

The best we can offer the Preterist are our prayers to the Lord for his/her enlightenment regarding the taking things away from the literal Word of God per Revelation 22:18-19.

[mattfivefour]

The purpose of this forum is not to debate the possible validity of preterist beliefs. As Sean rather bluntly put it they have been disproven over and over. There is no point continuing a vain argument. For that reason the suggestion and promotion of such beliefs is against board rules and will not be permitted to continue. We have a number of excellent articles in our library on our main site that more than adequately explain the fallacies of preterism. I suggest as a beginning point the reputable Dr. Thomas Ice's article here: Matthew 24 and "This Generation".

If anyone wishes to argue against our rule, feel free to PM me. But do not post your objections on the forum.