Rapture in relation to the seven seals??

[abiathar]

Hi guys. Im new here, but just wanted to ask a question.

Please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere

When do you think the rapture will fall in relation to the breaking of the seven seals in Rev 6? Personally i think the rapture will happen just before the breaking of the fourth seal (the release of the pale horse). I believe that the third seal has already been broken, which has caused the world wide economy distress of recent times etc, which means the rapture could happen at any moment.

Any thoughts?

[Robert]

After the first three chapters of the book of Revelation, the church is not mentioned or figured until the Second Coming of Christ at Armageddon. Also, the 24 elders pictured in Revelation have "crowns" and they are righteous, seeing as they are dressed in white, a sign of purity and holiness in scripture. Their crowns are a clue to their identity: the greek word describing their crown is not diatomah, a crown of authority and command, but is instead stephanas, a wreath of victory. In scripture, those that strive for the prize in "the race" are promised a "crown of victory":

" Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever." (1 Corinthians 9:25, NIV)

So, we see then that by comparing it to scripture and looking at what the word "crown" denotes, it leaves one possibility: the church.

These then are pretty good indicators that the church is gone well before the breaking of the first seal. Remember: there is no point to the church going through the Tribulation.

[abiathar]

After the first three chapters of the book of Revelation, the church is not mentioned or figured until the Second Coming of Christ at Armageddon. This is a pretty good indicator that the church is gone well before the breaking of the first seal. Remember: there is no point to the church going through the Tribulation.

Thanks Robert.
But what do you make of the instruction given to the rider of the black horse not to harm the oil and wine? considerly that oil and wine is symbolic of the annointing of the Holy Spirt, which may indicate the church was still present in the world at the time

[readytogo]

Thanks Robert.
But what do you make of the instruction given to the rider of the black horse not to harm the oil and wine? considerly that oil and wine is symbolic of the annointing of the Holy Spirt, which may indicate the church was still present in the world at the time

Yes, oil and wine are symbolic of the Holy Spirit (at least oil is) however, why would the rider on the black horse have to be instructed not to harm the Holy Spirit. Oil and wine at the time were used as "first aid" at the time. (see the parable of the good Samaritan.) There is abundant evidence elsewhere that the church will be taken out before the beginning of the tribulation which starts with the opening of the first seal. Sometimes oil (not wine) can be symbolic, but to quote Freud, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". It doesn't mean that it's always symbolic. And as Robert pointed out, the church is not mentioned after Revelation 3.

[Chris]

Thanks Robert.
But what do you make of the instruction given to the rider of the black horse not to harm the oil and wine? considerly that oil and wine is symbolic of the annointing of the Holy Spirt, which may indicate the church was still present in the world at the time

From an excellent Revelation Bible Study:

Revelation 6 | GraceThruFaith

When he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, “Come!” And I looked, and behold, a black horse! And its rider had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard what seemed to be a voice in the midst of the four living creatures, saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius, and do not harm the oil and wine!” (Rev 6:5-6)

Two things result when the world is plunged into uncertainty and wars erupt. First comes inflation, causing the prices of everything to skyrocket. When John wrote this, a denarius was the average pay for a day’s work, and that’s what it will cost to buy a quart of wheat, about enough food for one person for one day. Think of it. For many, a whole days wages will barely buy their food for that day. The next day it starts all over again. No money left for anything else.

Of course, the wealthy always benefit from inflation. When they see it coming, they’re able to convert their wealth into things that are either inflation proof, or actually increase in value during periods of inflation. The earliest example of this is comes from the Book of Genesis, when Joseph, who gained control of the world’s wheat supply on Pharaoh’s behalf, eventually acquired the entire wealth of Egypt in exchange for it. That’s what John meant by not harming the oil and wine, commodities that in his day were symbols of wealth. The vision he saw was famine amidst plenty. Both the Book of Daniel and the Moslem prophecies speak of the anti-Christ/al Mahdi showering lavish gifts on his followers while forcing his enemies into submission. (Daniel 11:39)

[Robert]

Thanks Robert.
But what do you make of the instruction given to the rider of the black horse not to harm the oil and wine? considerly that oil and wine is symbolic of the annointing of the Holy Spirt, which may indicate the church was still present in the world at the time

As pointed out: oil and wine were medical supplies as well as foodstuffs, per the parable of the Good Samaritan. During and after a war, medical supplies and food are in short supply and this reflects that.

Now let me ask you a question: in Revelation 3:10, Jesus tells the church at Philadelphia:

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (NASB)

Paul tells us in Romans 8:

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. " (Romans 8: 1-4, NASB, emphasis mine)

Keep in mind one of the purposes of the Tribulation: to shake those who are yet resistant and give them an opportunity to accept Jesus. For those who have already accepted Christ, what need is there for them to go through the Tribulation. And the blood of Christ is enough to wash us clean and purify us, so no further "purification" or "testing" is needed:

"For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." (Hebrews 9:24-28, NASB, emphasis mine)

There is nothign further that needs to be done: either Christ's blood paid ALL, or it paid NOTHING. There is nothing any suffering or testing on our part can contribute, and therefore no reason for us to be in the Tribulation. To add any works or testing of ourselves is to say that Christ's blood was not enough. And if our testing or suffering were enough, why did Christ have to die in the first place?

What we are seeing now is NOT the seals, but precursors of them that are setting up for the seals. Keep in mind: Jesus spoke of those times as begin so bad that they would never be equaled. As bad as it may seem right now, WWI and WWII featured misery on a global scale, and we are not near those levels yet.

A final thought: if the Rapture can come at any time, and we don't know when it is coming, then wouldn't God be calling himself a liar if the Rapture happened during the Tribulation? People would be expecting it, and it wouldn't be so imminent anymore.

[abiathar]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys, i appreciate it

[huggybob50]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts guys, i appreciate it

Abiathar, I noticed you're new here, so I wanted to take this opportunity to welcome you to RF! God bless you.

[mattfivefour]

Yes, welcome to RF, Abiathar!

[Thoughtspaz]

Hi Abiathar,

A great and free online source for studying Revelation - from a premilliennial, dispensational and pretribulational perpective - is Tony Garland's, A Testimony of Jesus Christ.

It can be found at A Testimony of Jesus Christ

I also highly recommend Dr Robert L Thomas' Exegetical Commentary on Revelation Volume 1 and 2.

[abiathar]

Thanks for the welcome guys!

This forum is a great source of information and revelation. I will enjoy my stay here.

[Kenny64]

Hi guys. Im new here, but just wanted to ask a question.

Please forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere

When do you think the rapture will fall in relation to the breaking of the seven seals in Rev 6? Personally i think the rapture will happen just before the breaking of the fourth seal (the release of the pale horse). I believe that the third seal has already been broken, which has caused the world wide economy distress of recent times etc, which means the rapture could happen at any moment.

Any thoughts?

Welcome to the Rapture Forms. I sincerely pray you and your family are blessed.

Please take some time and read this below.
Bible study: 2nd Thessalonians Chapter 2

I believe the scripture is clear about the rapture or "falling away". The falling away means that the Holy Spirit that indwells within us will be taken out of the way. See other discussions on this.
When the Restrainer is Removed

After the church is has been removed or taken away as in 1 Thess 4:17, the anti-christ will be revealed
2 Thess 2: 7 and 8.

Kenny