On the ground in Israel - for Ronen

[ronen]

i dont understand what exactly are we discussing.
from what angle am i to comment on all of this?
should i check it piece by piece or what.. i dont know.
my knowledge is not as extensive as yours.
and i dont even understand why you wrote all this.

please, lets just try to act like this is a conversation.
i say something you something.
and we both know what we are talking about.

most people in this country have very strong faith.
they will not surrender or run away even if iran would have a thousand nukes aiming at us right now.
but we for the most part are no bible experts.
only the orthodox are.( but many of them have it all twisted.)

do you think that a person's faith is less worthy or real if he is not educated in the bible?

[mattfivefour]

most people in this country have very strong faith.
they will not surrender or run away even if iran would have a thousand nukes aiming at us right now.
but we for the most part are no bible experts. only the orthodox are.( but many of them have it all twisted.)

I agree with you regarding the orthodox. I admire the zeal and celebration of faith in haShem by the Chasidim, but the talmud chuchems that I have met base everything they know on the talmud, the targums, and the rabbinic midrashim ... NOT the tenach. Man's wisdom is foolishness before G-d. That is why their interpretations are twisted. they are using the wisdom of man, not accepting the wisdom of G-d.

do you think that a person's faith is less worthy or real if he is not educated in the bible?

Let me ask YOU a question, first. If a person does not know the Bible, then on what do they base their faith? I can have faith that the road I am on will lead me to New York City. But if I have not read the map I could wind up anywhere else. My faith is meaningless; it is based on a false belief. In the same way, if the bible is G-d's Word to His people, and we do not know it, then how can we know what He wants and what else He is telling us? so we can both have faith; but one of us has faith based in what God has said while the other has faith in his own ideas. Which one, do you suppose, will wind up where God wants him?

[ronen]

I agree with you regarding the orthodox. I admire the zeal and celebration of faith in haShem by the Chasidim, but the talmud chuchems that I have met base everything they know on the talmud, the targums, and the rabbinic midrashim ... NOT the tenach. Man's wisdom is foolishness before G-d. That is why their interpretations are twisted. they are using the wisdom of man, not accepting the wisdom of G-d.
Let me ask YOU a question, first. If a person does not know the Bible, then on what do they base their faith? I can have faith that the road I am on will lead me to New York City. But if I have not read the map I could wind up anywhere else. My faith is meaningless; it is based on a false belief. In the same way, if the bible is G-d's Word to His people, and we do not know it, then how can we know what He wants and what else He is telling us? so we can both have faith; but one of us has faith based in what God has said while the other has faith in his own ideas. Which one, do you suppose, will wind up where God wants him?

if a person sees something that he decides can not be explained in rational scientific manner and he sees it as evidence of an act of god, than is believes in god. is that not a solid enough base for faith?
i dont think there is anything false in this.
the bible.. what can i say about it..
when you read it you believe it. and i dont care who you are. the only ones that can say they dont believe it are those that never read it. and yet to live by it doesnt sound right to me.

in the book of joshua god tell joshua to destroy a certain city and make sure that the israelis wont take a single thing from there.
one israeli does take something from there and as punishment he and his family get stoned to death and burned.

does that sound like something we should live by?
and im not even speaking about the decree on gay people.

[ronen]

They were terrified yet they did not offer the Israelis mercy. Sounds like old Satan had them led by chain to carry out evil deeds against the Israelis. ...

its we that attacked them not the other way around

[jesuschangesall]

i havent seen it. and i never had a chance to read the book of revelation. it is part of the new testament.
i cant even boast about reading the entire old testament (let alone understand it)

You are not alone...i remember that before receiving Christ Jesus as my Lord and Saviour I tried to read The Bible...my father had it for years in the bookshelf...so I picked it up and i started reading the Old testament....I was impressed and quite intrigued from the Book...but eventually i gave up reading it because it was a "locked" book to me...I just couldn't understand ...a few months later The Lord reached me with the Gospel of Christ,somebody witnessed to me in the streets of Rome where I was born,cause I lived there,and i have been raised Roman Catholic...anyway,a few days later I accepted Christ as My Lord and Saviour,just by faith,and from that moment on The Holy Spirit unlocked The Bible to me and I am still receiving so much blessings from the study of The OT and The NT....it is amazing...The Lord opens His word that it is new everyday!
Now He does that to "anyone" who believes in Him,receives Him by faith and starts this incredible journey towards HIM...just an example,before getting saved I was enrolled in the then Italian Communist Party and i was very active politically,I had then a great hostility towards Israel and i was pro/Arab/Palestinian even though i had some Jewish friends from school and some lived in my neighborhood.... man,it is incredible what The lord did,as soon I received Jesus Christ as my Saviour I started to have love and interest towards Israel...amazing....I remember going to the Jewish Synagogue in Rome ( it is in the Jewish Ghetto,an historical part of Rome) and I was so excited to enter and visit,I had goosebumps and almost tears to my eyes and i wanted so much my Jewish friends to know Jesus....man,I just cannot explain it unless I realize that the reason was HIS love for His brothers working in me and through me.... but of course to receive Jesus I had first admit I was a lost sinner, notwithstanding the great false image i had of my intellect and all and i had to repent ( turn from myself and my vain thoughts and ideas to The Lord's way ...) but of course as soon I called on The Lord He saved me and He is so faithful....Shalom:)

[Navyblue]

I agree with you regarding the orthodox. I admire the zeal and celebration of faith in haShem by the Chasidim, but the talmud chuchems that I have met base everything they know on the talmud, the targums, and the rabbinic midrashim ... NOT the tenach. Man's wisdom is foolishness before G-d. That is why their interpretations are twisted. they are using the wisdom of man, not accepting the wisdom of G-d.
Let me ask YOU a question, first. If a person does not know the Bible, then on what do they base their faith? I can have faith that the road I am on will lead me to New York City. But if I have not read the map I could wind up anywhere else. My faith is meaningless; it is based on a false belief. In the same way, if the bible is G-d's Word to His people, and we do not know it, then how can we know what He wants and what else He is telling us? so we can both have faith; but one of us has faith based in what God has said while the other has faith in his own ideas. Which one, do you suppose, will wind up where God wants him?

Matfivefour, Shalom. PS: WELCOME ronen.

I must offer a bit of an exception to some of what you say, especially that which I have highlighted in 'Bold,' above.

IMO, any person who believes in YHVH, and Yashuah ha Mashiach (Jesus), though they have never seen, or even heard of the Bible, is one saved dude.

Ponder, please, that Israel swore Faith in YHVH before Torah was uttered from God's Lips. Nebuchadnezzer believed in God without a book, through only the revealing of his dream, and may well be a brother in Christ Jesus. Better yet, the Apostles managed to start Christianity only having the Tanach, and then only what they had memorized, as no one, not even Paul could afford Scrolls of the Books of Torah or Tanach; but were more than able to bring people to Faith and Conviction by Holy Spirit, with only their Personal Faith, and their Words, as directed by Holy Spirit. (A person does not need a map to New York, until they know it exists, and have a desire to visit).

No organized 'Bible,' was assembled, by concensous until about 160AD (close I think). The Bible is, IMO again, the Source of Understanding our God better, and it guides us, like you said, to Him, by the best/only route, so-as-to minimize the times we stumble, as we mature and grow in Jesus, and all of God's word. Oh...Yeee-Haaa!!!

I sometimes wonder just how many brothers and sisters we have who were led to Salvation, and Conviction, by the simple words: God Loves You, and wants to be your God, through His only begotten Son, Jesus! Perhaps, just as many have been brought to Faith through the simple act of reading the Bible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Just the words, spoken to someone can open the mind, and heart, so Holy Spirit can Convict them. When that happens, the true study to understanding begins. nuff-said

In Messiah, His Blessings, and Truth. Arley

[ronen]

im ashamed to say that i have recently read these words and have not noticed this evident problem.
indeed joshua comes up to the captain of gods armies. he asks him who he is.
the answer is as you said - to take his shoes off.
and than the chapter is over???
and immedietly the next chapter begins with "so said god to joshua"
so is the captain our god..?
i will ask my teacher this question and see what he has to say about it.
you made a strong point here.

so i asked him..
its inconclusive. we came to the conclusion that the angel either spoke god's msg to joshua or maybe came as intermediary or smtng like that

[mattfivefour]

Matfivefour, Shalom. PS: WELCOME ronen.

I must offer a bit of an exception to some of what you say, especially that which I have highlighted in 'Bold,' above.

IMO, any person who believes in YHVH, and Yashuah ha Mashiach (Jesus), though they have never seen, or even heard of the Bible, is one saved dude.

Ponder, please, that Israel swore Faith in YHVH before Torah was uttered from God's Lips. Nebuchadnezzer believed in God without a book, through only the revealing of his dream, and may well be a brother in Christ Jesus. Better yet, the Apostles managed to start Christianity only having the Tanach, and then only what they had memorized, as no one, not even Paul could afford Scrolls of the Books of Torah or Tanach; but were more than able to bring people to Faith and Conviction by Holy Spirit, with only their Personal Faith, and their Words, as directed by Holy Spirit. (A person does not need a map to New York, until they know it exists, and have a desire to visit).

No organized 'Bible,' was assembled, by concensous until about 160AD (close I think). The Bible is, IMO again, the Source of Understanding our God better, and it guides us, like you said, to Him, by the best/only route, so-as-to minimize the times we stumble, as we mature and grow in Jesus, and all of God's word. Oh...Yeee-Haaa!!!

I sometimes wonder just how many brothers and sisters we have who were led to Salvation, and Conviction, by the simple words: God Loves You, and wants to be your God, through His only begotten Son, Jesus! Perhaps, just as many have been brought to Faith through the simple act of reading the Bible, but I wouldn't bet on it. Just the words, spoken to someone can open the mind, and heart, so Holy Spirit can Convict them. When that happens, the true study to understanding begins. nuff-said

In Messiah, His Blessings, and Truth. Arley

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? —Romans 10:14 And, may I add, what shall a preacher preach but the Word?

Respectfully, Arley, the Apostles had a lot more than the Tanakh! They had the very words which Jesus spoke to them. And they had God Himself, in the form and person of the Holy Spirit, living within them, speaking to them afresh, bringing to mind every word that Yehua has spoken. Those who came after the Apostles had their preaching and then their various writings (their letters [Iggerot] and the accounts of Christ's life and sayings as preserved in the gospels [Besorat HaGe'ulah]) through which God moved, Ruach Kodesh Himself speaking to them, enlivening the truth to their hearts. It may not have been organized as it later was, but God's Word was extant in the world of that time just as surely as it is, in organized form, in our time.

In the Brit Yashanah man was saved by keeping the law in faith. If Nebuchadnezzar kept the law in every respect in faith, then he would have gone to Paradise when he died and, since Messiah, would now be in Heaven. In the Brit Chadashah, however, man is saved only by believing in Yeshua as Mashaich through faith. In the Old, man's faith was in the truth of Tanakh. Today, man's faith must be in Christ. And Christ alone. And the Bible is the only place in which the objective truth of Christ can be found. Yes, there is a lot of subjective so-called truth floating around. That is what the emergent church is hanging itself on when it proclaims experience trumps doctrine. But it is error. The written WORD of God is the only thing on which we can base the knowledge of salvation. And it is the only thing by which we may measure experience or revelation, teaching and doctrine. It is our Rock, for it is the perfect expression of THE Rock. Everything else is shifting sand.

[A24AW]

Matfivefour, Shalom. PS: WELCOME ronen.

I must offer a bit of an exception to some of what you say, .......Just the words, spoken to someone can open the mind, and heart, so Holy Spirit can Convict them. When that happens, the true study to understanding begins. nuff-said

In Messiah, His Blessings, and Truth. Arley

Arley, I agree that just the words spoken to someone can open up the world of Jesus Christ to them. Having travelled around the world, especially in third world countries, speaking the truth of Jesus Christ can have a profound effect on someone and their belief system even though they can not read or write. For centuries the world has had an illiterate population that have come to know Jesus through the work of devoted missionaries. Literacy is not a requirement for belief.

[mattfivefour]

I agree—literacy is not a requirement in the least. All they need is that someone preach the gospel to them. But how do we know what the gospel is? How do we know that what we preach, or what has been preached to us, is correct? The Word. As I said, I agree with you both: the Word does not have to be read, it can be heard ... however the Word is not what we think it to be but rather what God gave to us. And when He gave it to us, He put it in writing so that there might be an objective standard against which to measure all preaching and teaching. That is my only point.

[Sean Osborne]

... the Word is not what we think it to be but rather what God gave to us. And when He gave it to us, He put it in writing so that there might be an objective standard against which to measure all preaching and teaching.

Amen Halalujah! Exactly correct Bro!

[myinnuendo999]

Oh man mattfivefour,, you took the words out of my mouth when I read arley's replies.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? —Romans 10:14 And, may I add, what shall a preacher preach but the Word?"

must be the Holy Spirit brother

You cannot separate the word of God from Jesus. Jesus himself is never fully revealed Himself apart from the Bible. Where the bible has been neglected- Jesus has been neglected.

You have to find out what attributes point to the only true Jesus. Who is Jesus? Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God".

[WazOz]

Hi all, with regards to eading the word, I was never interested in the Bible, full of thees and thous, made no sense at all, even though exposed to God through Sunday School, never lasted long as my old man was a typical sinner, go to Church and beat the family esp his wife just about weekly, hence my dislike for God, til 2004, God called me, got Baptised and Hallelujah, when I read the Bible it made sense, has to be of God, because before that it was non-sense, everything began to fall into place, so IMO it is important to read the Bible, it is my Blue Print of Life, full of life stories, good and bad, why it is sooo important that when someone is preached the word and they believe, it should be a priority to teach them how to read, because there is a whole new world of life altering History in the Bible, it is the one Book I would recommend and the only Book an illiterate person should read, keep up the Good work Missionaries, but also help these people to learn to read.
I believe you need more than just hearing the Word, one needs to read it, gain wisdom through it, come to know what Christ actually went through for them and what is to come if they don't follow Christ to God

[Sean Osborne]

Who is Jesus?

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Back to the OP thread topic.

Ronen said in his reply to Chris:

i dont expect any war with syria.

Ronen's expectation is in for a big surprise. The surprise is due to the fact that he, as with many Jews, does not know the Word of God in the Old Testament, much less the New Tesatment. It is quite literally beyond the spiritual ability of the Jews, for the most part, to comprehend.

Deuteronomy 29, Isaiah 29 and Romans 11 have the details as to why the Jews, for the most part, do not have a heart to perceive, eyes to see or ears to hear the Word of God. They were, for the most part, blind to the time of their visitation, which was the coming of Mashiach HaNagid, Christ the King. Isaiah 29 and Romans 11 tells us how this situation will be cured in the near future by God.

As for the big surprise, there will be war with Syria. And with Lebanon, Hezbollah, Jordan, and the terrorists in the West Bank & Gaza; with Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Initially, some of this war will be fought on Israeli soil. This war will see the use of Weapons of Mass destruction. It is the final act of the war which began in 1947-48.

These are not just words. They are orders of magnitude greater than the mere words of men. They are the Word of God as given through the prophets Asaph, Isaiah, Obadiah and Zephaniah.

[myinnuendo999]

John 1:1-5 (New King James Version)

Amen Sean Osborne