The Church will not go through the Tribulation

[Deep_MindQuest]

Question:
Will the church go through the tribulation?
Answer:
No. We learn from the Bible that the church will not go through the tribulation, but will be raptured (or taken to heaven) before that awful time begins. (This belief is often called the pre-tribulation rapture view, while the belief that the church will go through the tribulation is called the post-tribulation view.) Let us notice carefully the following scriptural proofs that the church will not go through the tribulation.

"I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation" (or "trial"). The single clearest Scripture which tells us that the church will not go through the tribulation is found in Revelation 3:10. It is written to the local church, or assembly, in Philadelphia which is representative of true believers today. "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly." A better translation of the word "temptation" is the word "trial" or "testing." The context here, I believe, makes clear that the hour of trial which shall come upon all the world is none other than the tribulation period. The word "hour" is often used as an expression which embraces more than a literal hour, as in John 5:25. I would call particular attention to the fact that the Lord says "I will keep thee from the hour" not "in the hour" or "through the hour." How will He keep us from the hour? "Behold, I come quickly." He will catch up the church to heaven. Just as Enoch was translated to heaven without dying before God judged the world with a flood, so the church will be raptured before God's awful judgments fall on this world.

The church is not mentioned on earth in the tribulation period. The Book of Revelation, chapters four through nineteen, give us in detail the events which will take place during the tribulation period. If the church is on earth during this time is it not strange that not once in these sixteen chapters do we read of a local church or assembly on earth? Not once do we read of a suffering or persecuted church. And this becomes even more significant when we realize that in the first three chapters of Revelation the local church or assembly is mentioned nineteen times. Why is this? Because the first three chapters give us mainly the prophetic history of the church on earth--"things that are." Then before the tribulation begins--"the things which must be hereafter"--the church is caught up and is no longer on earth. This is implied in Revelation 4:1 where the apostle John was told to "Come up hither."

The twenty-four elders in Revelation are believers in heaven. If the church goes through the tribulation, who then are the twenty-four elders in heaven? They are mentioned twelve times in chapters four through nineteen in Revelation? Their varied actions and services in which they take part show very clearly that they are representatives of the redeemed and raptured saints, both old and new testament. They are enthroned (Revelation 4:4); they cast their crowns before the throne (Revelation 4:10); they fall down and worship (Revelation 4:10; 5:8); they sing the song of redemption (Revelation 5:9,10); and these elders are in heaven with the Lamb in their midst (Revelation 5:6).

We look and wait for "the Saviour," not the tribulation. The rapture is always presented in Scripture as an event that may take place at any moment. Believers in the early church were exhorted to look and wait for the coming of the Lord Jesus in the air. "For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look [eagerly await] for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20). "And how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for His Son from heaven" (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10). The Lord Jesus Himself encourages us to expect Him to come at any moment by telling us three times in the last chapter of the Bible, "I come quickly" to which we respond, "Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Revelation 22:7,12,20). These expectations would be out of place if the rapture of the church took place after the tribulation. If that were true we would not have to expect the Lord Jesus to come at any moment. We would first have to wait for certain definite things to take place. A few of these are: the Jewish temple will be rebuilt (2 Thessalonians 2:4), the Antichrist will appear (2 Thessalonians 2:8), idolatry will be established in the temple (Matthew 24:15), and the mark of the beast will be enforced (Revelation 13:16,17).

It would be hard to momentarily expect the Lord to come if we knew that the above events must occur first. No, the above events are some of the signs that precede His coming to earth to set up His kingdom (Matthew 24:1-44). They have nothing to do with the Lord's coming in the air for the church (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18).

The church has a heavenly calling (Hebrews 3:1; Ephesians 1:3). The church is a body of believers whose Head is in heaven (Ephesians 1:20-22). The hopes of the church are all heavenly. The blessings of the church have to do with heaven, not earth. They are all bound up with Christ who is risen and glorified at the Father's right hand. The Lord Jesus is waiting to receive to Himself His heavenly bride, the church (John 17:24). She will reign with Him over the earth (Revelation 20:4). She will be in the new Jerusalem described for us in Revelation 21:9-22.

In contrast to this, the tribulation period has to do with the preparing of an earthly kingdom (Matthew 25:34). This earthly kingdom is described very beautifully in many Old Testament Scriptures such as Isaiah 60.

In conclusion, I would add that the teaching of the church going through the tribulation mixes up and confuses the heavenly blessings of the church with the earthly blessings of the kingdom. It also, to a great extent, robs the church of the sanctifying hope of waiting and watching for her Lord (Luke 12:36).

http://www.mwtb.org/pages/QA.php?id=...page_id=600630
Let us notice carefully the following scriptural proofs that the church will not go through the tribulation

[BuzzardHut]

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.rapturealert.com/defendingpretrib.asp
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There are other sound theological reasons why the Church will be raptured before the End Times judgments begin. One is that the Lord seems to keep Israel and the Church separate, never dealing with both at the same time (Acts 15: 13-18) If the primary purpose of Daniel's 70th week is to finish fulfilling the six promises to Israel in Daniel 9:24, then the Church has to disappear.

Another is that the Church was purified at the cross at which time all the punishment due us was born by the Lord Himself. From that time forward the Church is considered by God to be as righteous as He is. (2 Cor 5:17 & 21) The idea that the Church needs to undergo some discipline to become worthy to dwell with God is unscriptural and denies the Lord's completed work on the cross.

And third, the stated purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold, to purify Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations. (Jeremiah 30:1-11) The Church isn't destined for either of these outcomes.

There are also several subtle clues that on their own can't be used to support the pre-trib position, but which underscore the validity of the clear passages I've just cited. Take for instance the fact that Enoch, who bears a great similarity to the Church, disappeared before the Great Flood, that the angels couldn't destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear, and that Daniel was missing from the story of the fiery furnace, a model of the Great Tribulation.

When the Lord described His coming in Luke 17:26-29 He said that it would be both like the days of Noah (some will be preserved through the accompanying judgments) and the days of Lot (some will be taken away before them). And what about the promise He made to the Church in Philadelphia that he would keep us out of the "hour" of trial coming on the whole world? (Rev. 3:10)
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http://www.rapturealert.com/purposeoftribulation.asp God’s Purpose For The Tribulation
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A common statement made by some is as follows: " I believe that the church will go through the tribulation because the Bible says that we will suffer for our faith." The problem with such a statement is that while it may appear to have the veneer of biblical correctness, at core it betrays a lack of understanding of God' s purpose for the tribulation. Certainly the Bible teaches that all through out the church age Believers will suffer persecution. This is taught by such passages as John 16:33b, " In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." And in 2 Timothy 3:12 " Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." The question is will the church experience the trials of the tribulation? I have found that when a person is knowledgeable of what the Bible says is God' s purpose for the tribulation, or any issue for that matter, then a very high percentage of those people will come to believe that the church will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation. What is God' s purpose for the tribulation?
Start Of The Tribulation

First, we need to know that the tribulation in Bible prophecy is the period of time that begins with the signing of a covenant between Israel and the antichrist and ends seven years later at the second coming of Jesus Christ. The most extensive biblical comments on the tribulation are found in the writings of John, specifically in Revelation 6- 19. In these chapters, John provides a detailed exposition of the tribulation days. Daniel' s "70 weeks," prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 are the framework within which the tribulation or the 70th week occurs. The seven-year period of Daniel's 70th week provides the time span with which a whole host of descriptives are associated. Some of those descriptive terms include: tribulation, great tribulation, day of the Lord, day of wrath, day of distress, day of trouble, time of Jacob's trouble, day of darkness and gloom, and wrath of the Lamb.


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Conclusion
While many people think the tribulation will involve the church, the Bible does not provide support for such a notion. Instead, Scripture informs us of at least a three-fold purpose for the coming tribulation, none of which involves the church. The New Testament teaches that the church will be taken at the rapture to be with the Lord before the tribulation begins, because God has not destined His bride for His wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9; Revelation 3:10). Other groups of redeemed individuals will go through the tribulation, but not Christ' s bride, the church. Maranatha!
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http://www3.calvarychapel.com/librar...ooks/ttatc.htm The purpose of this book is to examine the biblical reasons why I feel the Church will not be here during the Great Tribulation.


1. The Two Tribulations


The fact that a time of great tribulation is coming upon the earth is firmly established in the Scriptures. In Daniel 12:1 we read, "And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to the same time, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." This mention of "the book" is, no doubt, a reference to the Book of Life. What a wonderful promise of deliverance!

In Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus Himself said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The "elect" here refers to Israel, as evidenced by the context (vs. 16, 20). Both Daniel and Jesus spoke about the same "time of trouble" and day of "great tribulation" to come upon the earth.

The Book of Revelation gives us many details about the events that will transpire on earth during this time of Great Tribulation. Chapter 6 begins with the opening of the seven seals of judgment. The Tribulation continues through the seven trumpet judgments and the seven vials of God's wrath that will be poured out. If you want to fully understand what this Great Tribulation will be like, read Revelation Chapters 6 through 19 at this point.

It's important to make a clear distinction about tribulations as taught in the Bible. There are two different types of tribulation. (1) The Great Tribulation referred to by Jesus and Daniel and detailed by John in the Revelation. (2) The tribulation that Jesus promised would come to the Church.

Speaking to His disciples in John 16:33 Jesus said, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." The Church will have tribulation in the world. It's important to notice that the "tribulation" faced by the Church originates from the world and comes from the world system controlled by Satan. Satan is behind all the attacks on the Church.

Paul tells us that we're wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Spirit forces are warring against the children of God, the source of our tribulation is definitely the world system governed by Satan.

The Great Tribulation that will come upon the earth originates from Heaven. God's wrath is poured out in judgment against the sinners during this Tribulation. When the sixth seal is opened in Revelation 6:12, those on the earth try to hide and they call for the rocks and the mountains to fall upon them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb for the great day of His wrath has come, and they question, "Who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 11:18 declares, "Thy wrath is come."

In Revelation 14:10 the Great Tribulation is referred to as the indignation and wrath of God. When the seals are opened in Heaven corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The angels are given trumpets in Heaven, and as they blow the trumpets corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The vials from the living creatures are opened by the seven angels, and again corresponding judgments come upon the earth. All these judgments come from God and have their origin in Heaven. In Psalm 69:20-28 we have a prophecy concerning Jesus - it speaks of His disciples forsaking Him in the hour of need and of vinegar being given Him for His thirst. It then calls for God to pour out His indignation and His wrathful anger upon those who had persecuted the One whom God had smitten. Indignation is a word used in the Old Testament especially to describe the time of the great tribulation. Isaiah 26:19,20; Isaiah 34:1-8; Jeremiah 10:10; Daniel 8:19; Daniel 11:36; Nahum 1:5,6; Zephaniah 3:8. Note that in Isaiah 66:14 the hand of the Lord will be known toward His children but His indignation toward His enemies.

Paul tells us in Romans 2:6 that God will render to every man according to his deeds. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil. Hebrews 10:27 speaks of the fiery indignation that will devour His adversaries.

The tribulation experienced by the child of God comes from the Satan-governed world. The Tribulation that is coming on the sinful world will come from God.

Why is this Great Tribulation coming? The Scripture says that its purpose is threefold: (1) to try men who dwell upon the earth (Revelation 3:10); (2) that God might vent His wrath upon the wicked (Revelation 15:7), and (3) to destroy those who destroyed the earth (Revelation 11:18). Those who fall in one or all of these categories will be on the earth to experience the Tribulation period.

In the Old Testament the Lord spoke to Abraham and told him of the impending judgment on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. In response Abraham challenged the fairness of God. He asked, "Shall not the Lord of the earth be just? Would You destroy the righteous with the wicked? What if there are 50 righteous?" The Lord responded that if He found 50 righteous He would spare the city for the sake of the 50 righteous.

Notice the whole premise of Abraham's intercession with God was that it wouldn't be fair for God to judge the righteous with the wicked. If the judgment proceeds from God, then it surely wouldn't be fair for God to judge the righteous along with the wicked. Nowhere in the scripture when we find judgement proceeding directly from God do we find the righteous being judged with the wicked.

When the angels arrived in Sodom, they couldn't even find the ten righteous for whom Abraham had interceded. So, they delivered the one righteous man, Lot, out of the city. Not until he was delivered did the judgment of God come. They declared in Genesis 19:22 that they could not do anything until he was safely out of the way.

In Luke 17 when Jesus makes reference to Lot's escape, Jesus clearly points out that in the same hour Lot was brought out of the city, the judgment of God fell. In II Peter 2 the apostle points out that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, "making them an example." However, God delivered that righteous man, Lot, who was vexed by the way people were living around him. Then Peter goes on to say, "For God knows how to deliver the righteous... and to reserve the ungodly for the day of judgment" (II Peter 2:9).

We're told in I Thessalonians 5 that God has not appointed us unto wrath. Also, in Romans 5:9 we're told that "being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

Any argument that might be developed to prove that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation and experience the wrath of God that is coming upon the earth must somehow explain the following point. When did God change His ways as to now punish the righteous with the wicked? It would be a change in God's nature to force His children to face the outpouring of His wrath. Yet, God said that he changes not (Malachi 3:6).

In deductive logic the most common form of reasoning is known as a syllogism. A syllogism consists of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion. When one premise is negative and the other positive, only a negative conclusion can follow. For example, a major premise might be positive: all birds have wings. The minor premise is negative: dogs do not have wings. The conclusion must be negative: dogs are not birds.

Our major premise is negative: the Church is not appointed to wrath (Greek: orge). "We shall be saved from wrath" (Romans 5:9); "God has not appointed us to wrath" (I Thessalonians 5:9). The minor positive premise is: the Great Tribulation is a time of God's wrath (orge). "Hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath is come" (Revelation 6:16-17). The conclusion must be negative and plain: the Church will not experience the Great Tribulation. To argue any differently is to defy logic, and one may as well seek to prove that a dog is a bird. No further argument to prove that the Church will not go through the Great Tribulation is necessary, yet the burden of evidence is overwhelming. So, let us go on.

[Chris]

I agree. whenever God has poured out his wrath in the past like with the Flood and Sodom/Gomorrah he always removed the righteous before he acted. With the church made righteous through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we are confident that we will be removed before the 70th week begins.

[open door]

in fact, He promises our removal in rev. 3:l0, l thess. l:l0, l thess. 5:9, romans 5:9 & 2 Pet. 2:9. the context is removal from the trib. period, and not from the eternal wrath of God, i.e., hell.

[mattfivefour]

:amen :praise

[LivnForChrist]

Amen, Amen, Amen

[crush]

I rlly don't think there is going to be a pre-tribulation rapture though.

Actually I think that the only resurrection at all that will happen is for those saints that are actually killed During the Great tribulation, followed by a "catching up" of those that survive the tribulation alive to meet Jesus in the air. This is said to happen at the last trumpet judgement, which is the very end of the tribulation/wrath period.

Rev 20:4-6 makes it very clear exactly who is resurrected, and who reigns with Christ for 1000 years...It is the martyred tribulation saints. The rest of the dead, including dead believers in Christ, are resurrected at the end of the millenium, for Judgement day. Rev 6:9-11 further verifies that Jesus will not return to earth, and these souls underneath God's altar will not be resurrected until All of those on earth that Should be martyred are killed.

So at the very least, if you still choose to believe pre-tribulation rapture, you'd have to say that there is one resurrection of the dead at the beginning of the tribulation, and one at the end. (BTW the resurrection of the tribulation martyrs is called the First Resurrection LOL)

During Christ's conversation with Martha concerning Lazarus's resurrection we can see when the believers in Christ will have their resurrection.

John11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

We are given an exact date that dead Lazarus, a believer and friend of Jesus Christ, is scheduled to be resurrected...The Last Day.

So this is what I see from reading the bible without adding any of my own reasoning or commentary.

We are not appointed to wrath - Rev 9:4

I'd be happy to discuss each point you have made here, I'm sure there is a simple biblical answer to each of them, and you won't have to rely on your own fallible reasoning.

[Deep_MindQuest]

tribulation saints are not church age saints you have completly messed that up trib saints are those who get saved after the rapture its important not to just mix up israel with the church blindly and doing that leads to the horrible replacment theology which is a kind of cancer that falsly claims God is thru with israel forever and we the church replaced them forever.. its not true at all after were raptured Gods attention returns and finishes with israel... also you have mixed the last trumpet of the Church up with the last trumpet of revelation another serious error theres many trumpets in the Bible and you cant just assume there all the same and lump them together its a serious flaw and once again is mixing israel with the Church and mixing trib saints up with todays Church age saints, there 2 diffrent things and not to be mixed up

[BuzzardHut]

tribulation saints are not church age saints you have completly messed that up trib saints are those who get saved after the rapture its important not to just mix up israel with the church blindly and doing that leads to the horrible replacment theology which is a kind of cancer that falsly claims God is thru with israel forever and we the church replaced them forever.. its not true at all after were raptured Gods attention returns and finishes with israel

True
the trib saints become second place to Israel, not the other way around

[crush]

Saved during the tribulation? I've just skimmed through your post entitled The Restrainer and have seen much to my suprise that the Holy Spirit won't be present on the earth during the tribulation. So that would mean that no one could be saved during the tribulation of course, since the Holy Spirit is the main ingredient of salvation Joh 3:5

And I certainly don't believe in replacement theology whatsoever, and I don't see how you have come to that conclusion? And I've never read of this "last trumpet of the church" in scriptures? So I guess I'm a little lost as where all this is coming from. I'm familiar with the bible, so if we could keep the discussion between the pages, I should be able to keep up *grins*

I'm just reading the Rev 20:4 scripture exactly as it's written, nothing more....I have no agenda, I'm not affiliated with any organized religion, not a Jew, LOL

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

You'll notice that those sitting on the thrones here aren't even given resurrection if you'll read this passage strictly, they are given judgement....but we are told without a shadow of a doubt here who exactly is involved in the first resurrection "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years"

As far as the "rest of the dead", they are resurrected at the end of the millenium, on the last day....

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You'll have to be patient with me, I see this rapture doctrine has really evolved in it's philosophy since I last encountered it LOL

[mattfivefour]

crush wrote: Saved during the tribulation? I've just skimmed through your post entitled The Restrainer and have seen much to my suprise that the Holy Spirit won't be present on the earth during the tribulation. So that would mean that no one could be saved during the tribulation of course, since the Holy Spirit is the main ingredient of salvation Joh 3:5

Actually, friend, what DMQ wrote was that the church indwelt by the Holy Spirit is what is restraining. The Holy Spirit will still be on the earth. In fact DMQ quoted Dave Hunt in saying: "It is this unique presence of the Holy Spirit in the church which will be removed at the rapture, allowing the Antichrist to be revealed and to have free rein to rule the world. Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here to convict sinners of the truth of the gospel and to win multitudes to Christ during the tribulation period. These are the tribulation saints who will be martyred for their faith." (Dave Hunt, from "In Defense of the Faith" pg's 258-259)

I think Hunt—and all the others who believe in like fashion—are correct. It fits all scripture. If you think we are wrong, please bring forth the scriptures it violates so that, like the Bereans, we may consider them to better see the truth.

In Christ,

Adrian (mattfivefour)

[crush]

Well I definitely appologize for mistating DMQ's premise in the other thread, I just stumbled in here tonite and have been mainly skimming around and not scrutinizing the longer posts as much as they deserve I suppose. So, the indwelling Holy Spirit of the "multitudes" that recieve Christ after the Rapture won't do any restraining, and only the present day Church's indwelling Holy Spirit has the power to restrain? I'm sure you can see why I'd be confused can't you?

I also believe that creating theories that "don't violate scripture" is the wrong aproach to understanding.

[BuzzardHut]

Well I definitely appologize for mistating DMQ's premise in the other thread, I just stumbled in here tonite and have been mainly skimming around and not scrutinizing the longer posts as much as they deserve I suppose. So, the indwelling Holy Spirit of the "multitudes" that recieve Christ after the Rapture won't do any restraining, and only the present day Church's indwelling Holy Spirit has the power to restrain? I'm sure you can see why I'd be confused can't you?

I also believe that creating theories that "don't violate scripture" is the wrong aproach to understanding.

The Holy Spirit, as the restrainer, holds back evil from doing their worst.
And He does it through God's invisible church, those who have experienced personal salvation, and even extends out through local churches.
When the rapture occurs, the restraining body of saved people are removed, the Holy Spirit remains because God is omnipresent.

The Holy Spirit will continue saving individuals, the trib saints, but the church age will be over, the special gift of the everpresent indwelling Holy Spirit will be over and it will be just like the Old testament days when the spirit would enter and leave those of faith, such as Sampson, for example.
They are basically hanging on until Jesus returns to rescue them at the second coming.

The Jews will be hanging on as well waiting for their messiah to rescue them, and it happens to be the same Jesus, to their surprise

[LindaLee]

Actually, friend, what DMQ wrote was that the church indwelt by the Holy Spirit is what is restraining. The Holy Spirit will still be on the earth. In fact DMQ quoted Dave Hunt in saying: "It is this unique presence of the Holy Spirit in the church which will be removed at the rapture, allowing the Antichrist to be revealed and to have free rein to rule the world. Of course, the Holy Spirit, being omnipresent, will remain here to convict sinners of the truth of the gospel and to win multitudes to Christ during the tribulation period. These are the tribulation saints who will be martyred for their faith." (Dave Hunt, from "In Defense of the Faith" pg's 258-259)

I think Hunt—and all the others who believe in like fashion—are correct. It fits all scripture. If you think we are wrong, please bring forth the scriptures it violates so that, like the Bereans, we may consider them to better see the truth.

In Christ,

Adrian (mattfivefour)

:iagree

[Chris]

The HS in the OT times was not "indwelt" within believers. King David begged God not to take the HS from him at times.

During the church age, the HS indwelt in believers guaranteeing us our salvation on the day of redemption (rapture or death). This is unique to the church only.

However, when the church age is over, the HS will go back to OT type style presence which means he will not be indwelt within believers.

I hope that helps. :)

[crush]

Well for starters, I can see this doctrine is based on what is a very shaky premise at best and would seem to deteriorate from there.

Kinda reminds me of the guy who build his house on the rock, and the one that built his house on the sand, the moral being that your doctrines should have a very strong foundation, that is to say, a foundation not based on theory, but based on scripture that is plain and isn't subject to interpretation.

For example, your premise is based on the Holy Spirit being the "restrainer" or "he who restrains", which is a guess on your part. I do not know for sure who this "restrainer" actually is either, because there isn't enough information given. But a better "guess" IMO would be that the restrainer is the "angel with the key to the bottomless pit". Since the beast "that was, and is, and will be" will ascend from the bottomless pit, which is a place of imprisonment. The "one who hinders" of 2Th 2:7 is keeping "the secret of lawlessness" down, and "the secret of lawlessness" belongs to "the man of lawlessness", I would say this is a better guess, but it is just a guess :)

So from there, to protect this mistake, you have had to put "time limits" on the promises of salvation, I suppose revert back to a time of "law based salvation", and actually create a non-event for what is scheduled to be the "fullness for the church", the tribulation. None of these things are scriptural.

Christ is the sower, the seed is the Gospel, the Tribulation is the time of the Harvest, it is very simple. The Gospel, which is actually clarified to us even more during the Tribulation by the two witnesses, includes the promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it's really a requirement of accepting the Gospel.

I appreciate your time, but I can see that this will not be a productive discussion, so I'll head on down the road and "spread my cancer" elsewhere LOL

Have a good one

[mattfivefour]

I think it unlikely that "the restrainer is the 'angel with the key to the bottomless pit'" as crush suggests. I say that because prior to the verse which has given rise to this discussion (2 Thessalonians 2:7) comes 2 Thessalonians 2:6 which reads "And now ye know what withholdeth (ie: "restrains" ... it is the same word in both verses) that he might be revealed in his time." So in 52 or 53 AD, Paul is saying the Christians at Thessaloniki already knew who or what the restrainer was! The revelation of Jesus Christ given to John (in which the information about the 'angel with the key to the bottomless pit' was revealed) was not given to him—and so was not shared with the Church—until some time after 90 or 92 AD.

Now many early commentators believed that Paul's reference to that which was restraining lawlessness was in fact the Roman empire ... because the "lex romanum"—the Roman Law—was extremely strict and in fact did hold lawlessness at bay for many centuries ... until Rome fell ... at which time lawlessness began to overtake the known earth. And so it was understood by many including Matthew Henry and others.

However, many prophecies have both a near and a distant fulfillment. And it is quite possible—if not probable—that this one does, too. Buzz is quite correct when he writes:

The Holy Spirit, as the restrainer, holds back evil from doing their worst.
And He does it through God's invisible church, those who have experienced personal salvation, and even extends out through local churches.
When the rapture occurs, the restraining body of saved people are removed, the Holy Spirit remains because God is omnipresent.

The Holy Spirit will continue saving individuals, the trib saints, but the church age will be over, the special gift of the everpresent indwelling Holy Spirit will be over and it will be just like the Old testament days when the spirit would enter and leave those of faith, such as Sampson, for example.

They are basically hanging on until Jesus returns to rescue them at the second coming.

The Jews will be hanging on as well waiting for their messiah to rescue them, and it happens to be the same Jesus, to their surprise.

Nevertheless, I am truly very sorry if crush decides to leave this board because of a disagreement over this. The fact is this is not important!!! This entire discussion is just that-- a discussion. None of it is important for essential doctrine. None of it has anything to do with our salvation or with our labor for the Lord." None of it!

No wonder Paul warned Titus—and thereby the Holy Spirit warns us— to: "avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain!!!" (Titus 3:9) The word translated "contentions" in the KJV is ερεις in the Greek (pronounced ER-ace). It means "debates, "variances", or "strifes". We are to "avoid" (Greek περιιστασο—per-ee-ISS-ta-sew—"keep away from", "shun") them. "Them"? The foolish questions.

The actual words Paul wrote for "foolish questions" were "μωρὰς ζητήσεις" (MOR-as dzay-TEE-say-iss) which literally means "stupid or dull or heedless strivings to find something out". Why? Because such strivings to find out are "ανωφελεις και ματαιοι" (an-oh-fell-ACE kay MAT-ay-oy)—"without profit and empty". Folks, Paul is saying that these kinds of discussions have no value ... they are absolutely vain ... because they usually turn into contentious (and useless) debate.

Let us remember the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:1b-3-- "We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if any man think that he knows any thing, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. But if any man loves God, he is known by Him." Let us be known by God!!!

If a question is important to our salvation or our labor, then God will reveal it to us in due time. Is the question of who "the restrainer" is of that importance? Imho no. I believe we should remember the important things. They are what we should heed .... they are what we should argue for.

In Deuteronomy 29:29 God's Holy Spirit tells us: "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." So let us encourage one another to leave the "secret, closed, hidden, concealed things" with the Lord until the day He reveals them ... and to, instead, remember to daily, hourly—indeed, each moment of our lives—obey God and teach our children to do so as well.

imho

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.ankerberg.org/Articles/bi...y/BP1099W4.htm Another novel idea that has emerged in recent years is that the restrainer is the Archangel Michael, who supposedly will "stand aside" and allow Israel to be persecuted during the "time of Jacob’s trouble" (Jer. 30:7). This view, however, first appeared in quasi-Christian magical papyri of the third century A.D. and has never been espoused by any reputable theologian. It is based on a total misunderstanding and erroneous translation of Daniel 12:1, which actually states just the opposite view—that Michael will "stand up" for Israel at that time, not abandon them.
If the restrainer can be described both in neuter and masculine ways and must have sufficient supernatural power to restrain the Satanic mystery of lawlessness, the Holy Spirit is the only person who fits all of these characteristics and is the best possible identity of the restrainer.

[Deep_MindQuest]

notice how michael is associated with israel (the time of Jacobs trouble) and not the Church age to reverse or blindly clump it together with us is once again a form of replacement theology a horrible cancer