The Church will not go through the Tribulation

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.bibletruths.org/study/rapture.html Reasons Why the Church Will Not Be in the Tribulation Period !!!!!!!

[open door]

i agree with all the posts supporting pretribulationalism. i only want to add one item of interest. Dr. Walvoord pointed out that ALL of our arguments against post-tribulationalism are meaningless UNLESS one sees the distinction between Israel & the Church. I agree totally with that. However, just because one does not see this all important distinction does not make them believe in replacement theology. believe me, i doubt anyone here supports the pre-trib view any more than i do, i have studied it inside out for 3 years now. however, i have someone very close to me who is a post-trib believer, and i can not for the life of me get him to see the distinction (he does not believe in replacement theology). once you see that disstinctin, and interpret scripture from a literal standpoint, CONSISTENTLY, pre-trib falls into place perfectly.tons of scriputre to support it. those who don't believe it have to DENY that same scripture. keep looking up

[mattfivefour]

open door (and Buzz and DMQ, etc) are absolutely correct. If you are not pre-trib then you have to deny so many scriptures ... not the least of which is Revelation 3:10-- "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

The clause "I will keep you from the hour of trial" in Greek is: "τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ" (teh-RAY-so ek tohs HOR-as too pay-rass-MOO) and literally means: I will hold you fast (or preserve or reserve you) out of the hour (or time or season) of trial (or 'putting to the test')" ... a time that the rest of the verse tells us is to come upon the earth to test, try, examine, or discipline its inhabitants. I think that's pretty clear. The resurrected, glorified Jesus states this categorically. It is a future active indicative. He WILL do it. No doubt, no question!

Now I have read a rather ingenuous argument put forth by some anti-pre-tribbers who say the preposition "ek" can mean "through". Really? Wow. They sure would have to re-invent Greek grammar to come up with that. "Ek" with the genitive case following is ALWAYS "from", "out of", or "away from". And—just for the record—the noun that follows "ek" IS in the genitive case. So let those who want this preposition to say "through" close their mouths. It is not true!

If the Holy Spirit had wanted us to believe we would be kept "through" something, He would have inspired the use of the preposition διὰ (dee-AH ... or in the modern Greek thee-AH) which means literally "through" or "during". He didn't. John heard Jesus say "ek" ... "out of".

Just as Noah in the ark was saved from the flood that judged the world, we in Christ will be saved from the judgment that will try the world. Doesn't mean we will not see tribulation. (Heck that's part of life as a servant of Christ in this world.) But it does mean we will not suffer the Great Tribulation.

[open door]

open door (and Buzz and DMQ, etc) are absolutely correct. If you are not pre-trib then you have to deny so many scriptures ... not the least of which is Revelation 3:10-- "Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."

The clause "I will keep you from the hour of trial" in Greek is: "τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ" (teh-RAY-so ek tohs HOR-as too pay-rass-MOO) and literally means: I will hold you fast (or preserve or reserve you) out of the hour (or time or season) of trial (or 'putting to the test')" ... a time that the rest of the verse tells us is to come upon the earth to test, try, examine, or discipline its inhabitants. I think that's pretty clear. The resurrected, glorified Jesus states this categorically. It is a future active indicative. He WILL do it. No doubt, no question!

Now I have read a rather ingenuous argument put forth by some anti-pre-tribbers who say the preposition "ek" can mean "through". Really? Wow. They sure would have to re-invent Greek grammar to come up with that. "Ek" with the genitive case following is ALWAYS "from", "out of", or "away from". And—just for the record—the noun that follows "ek" IS in the genitive case. So let those who want this preposition to say "through" close their mouths. It is not true!

If the Holy Spirit had wanted us to believe we would be kept "through" something, He would have inspired the use of the preposition διὰ (dee-AH ... or in the modern Greek thee-AH) which means literally "through" or "during". He didn't. John heard Jesus say "ek" ... "out of".

Just as Noah in the ark was saved from the flood that judged the world, we in Christ will be saved from the judgment that will try the world. Doesn't mean we will not see tribulation. (Heck that's part of life as a servant of Christ in this world.) But it does mean we will not suffer the Great Tribulation.

another great teaching, matt54. for those who dispute rev. 3:10, i would like for them to look at 5 key words/phrases within this one verse (l) from; (2) (Hour) of trial; (3) all the world; (4) (try) them that dwell on the earth; & (5) that (dwell upon the earth). too lengthy for me to go into here, but when you look at all the scriputre supporting these 5 points of this one verse, could it all be wrong? don't think so. keep looking up

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.mwtb.org/pages/QA.php?id=...page_id=600630
Let us notice carefully the following scriptural proofs that the church will not go through the tribulation
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Do you have aquestion?
This book, entitled "Questions Answered," gives in-depth answers to 70
questions about the Bible, the Christian life, and the end times.
http://www.mwtb.org/pages/QA.php?id=10223

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www3.telus.net/thegoodnews/tribulation.htm The True Victorious, Overcoming Church Will Not Go Through The Great Tribulation Period. The true saints of God are not looking for the Great Tribulation, or for the Antichrist to be revealed. We are looking for the Personal Return of the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.rapturealert.com/purposeoftribulation.asp God’s Purpose For The Tribulation
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A common statement made by some is as follows: " I believe that the church will go through the tribulation because the Bible says that we will suffer for our faith." The problem with such a statement is that while it may appear to have the veneer of biblical correctness, at core it betrays a lack of understanding of God' s purpose for the tribulation. Certainly the Bible teaches that all through out the church age Believers will suffer persecution. This is taught by such passages as John 16:33b, " In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world." And in 2 Timothy 3:12 " Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." The question is will the church experience the trials of the tribulation? I have found that when a person is knowledgeable of what the Bible says is God' s purpose for the tribulation, or any issue for that matter, then a very high percentage of those people will come to believe that the church will be taken in the rapture before the tribulation. What is God' s purpose for the tribulation?
Start Of The Tribulation

First, we need to know that the tribulation in Bible prophecy is the period of time that begins with the signing of a covenant between Israel and the antichrist and ends seven years later at the second coming of Jesus Christ. The most extensive biblical comments on the tribulation are found in the writings of John, specifically in Revelation 6- 19. In these chapters, John provides a detailed exposition of the tribulation days. Daniel' s "70 weeks," prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27 are the framework within which the tribulation or the 70th week occurs. The seven-year period of Daniel's 70th week provides the time span with which a whole host of descriptives are associated. Some of those descriptive terms include: tribulation, great tribulation, day of the Lord, day of wrath, day of distress, day of trouble, time of Jacob's trouble, day of darkness and gloom, and wrath of the Lamb.
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Conclusion

While many people think the tribulation will involve the church, the Bible does not provide support for such a notion. Instead, Scripture informs us of at least a three-fold purpose for the coming tribulation, none of which involves the church. The New Testament teaches that the church will be taken at the rapture to be with the Lord before the tribulation begins, because God has not destined His bride for His wrath (Romans 5:9; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; 5:9; Revelation 3:10). Other groups of redeemed individuals will go through the tribulation, but not Christ' s bride, the church. Maranatha!

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org.../rapture.htm#2 Shall We Have Tribulation?
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Shall We Have Tribulation?
In answer to the question, "Will the Church go through Tribulation?" we must answer "YES!" In answer to the question, "Will the Church go through THE Tribulation?" the answer is "NO!

The following verses demonstrate that believers living in the Church Age must go through tribulation:

(John 16:33b) In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
(Acts 14:22) Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
(Rom. 5:3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
(1 Thess. 1:6) And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction [tribulation], with joy of the Holy Ghost.
(1 Thess. 3:3-4) That no man should be moved by these afflictions [tribulations]: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. (4) For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
(2 Tim. 3:12) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
Believers living in this Age are not exempt from times of trouble and distress and intense pressure and persecution. However, there is a specific time of trouble which Church Age believers are exempt from: "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev.3:10).

Believers are appointed unto tribulations (1 Thess. 3:3), but believers are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thess. 5:9, "wrath" referring to a specific time when God will pour out His wrath upon the earth). Believers must pass through the fires of affliction, but we will not pass through the specific fires of affliction that are reserved for Daniel's 70th week. TRIBULATION? Yes! THE TRIBULATION? No!

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/proph/rapture.pdf Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation? Will the Church Go Through the Tribulation?

l Scriptural Support for the PreTribulation Rapture l Shall We Have Tribulation?

l The Amazing 2000 Year Gap

l A Comforting Hope!

l Populating the Millennium?

l God's Purpose for the Tribulation

l The Rapture is Imminent!

l Looking for the Kingdom?

l Salvation, Not Wrath

l The Removal of the Restrainer

l God's Outline of the Book of

Revelation l The Key Pre-Tribulation Passage

l Some Questions about the Rapture


Scriptural Support for the pre-Tribulation Rapture

TERMS TO UNDERSTAND

l Tribulation--affliction, trouble, pressure, distress (John 16:33).

l The Tribulation--the final seven years before Christ returns to the earth. Also referred

to as Daniel's 70th week. l The Great Tribulation--the last 3½ years before Christ returns to the earth. This will

be the most intense and difficult time of trouble the world has ever known (Matt. 24:21). l The Day of the Lord--A time when God directly intervenes in the affairs of men

especially by judgment but also by way of blessing. It is often used in the Bible to describe the judgment and wrath of God poured out upon the world during the Tribulation period. l Daniel's 70th Week--based on Daniel 9:24-27. This refers to the final seven years

before Christ returns to the earth (the "week" being a period of seven years, not seven days). l The Rapture--this term is derived from a Latin verb which was used to translate the

Greek verb harpaz ("caught up") found in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. This Greek verb means to be snatched away, taken away suddenly, quickly removed by force from one place to another, as when Philip was caught away to another place (Acts 8:39) or when the Lord Jesus was suddenly taken up to heaven at the time of the ascension (Rev. 12:5). When Christ returns for His Church, believers will be "caught up," and suddenly taken from earth to heaven (compare John 14:3).

l Pre- Tribulation Rapture-- the Church will be raptured before the seven year

Tribulation begins. Thus the Church will pass through none of the Tribulation. This is the correct, Biblical view as will be demonstrated in this paper.

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www3.calvarychapel.com/librar...ooks/ttatc.htm The purpose of this book is to examine the biblical reasons why I feel the Church will not be here during the Great Tribulation.


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The purpose of this book is to examine the biblical reasons why I feel the Church will not be here during the Great Tribulation.

1. The Two Tribulations


The fact that a time of great tribulation is coming upon the earth is firmly established in the Scriptures. In Daniel 12:1 we read, "And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to the same time, and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book." This mention of "the book" is, no doubt, a reference to the Book of Life. What a wonderful promise of deliverance!

In Matthew 24:21-22 Jesus Himself said, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." The "elect" here refers to Israel, as evidenced by the context (vs. 16, 20). Both Daniel and Jesus spoke about the same "time of trouble" and day of "great tribulation" to come upon the earth.

The Book of Revelation gives us many details about the events that will transpire on earth during this time of Great Tribulation. Chapter 6 begins with the opening of the seven seals of judgment. The Tribulation continues through the seven trumpet judgments and the seven vials of God's wrath that will be poured out. If you want to fully understand what this Great Tribulation will be like, read Revelation Chapters 6 through 19 at this point.

It's important to make a clear distinction about tribulations as taught in the Bible. There are two different types of tribulation. (1) The Great Tribulation referred to by Jesus and Daniel and detailed by John in the Revelation. (2) The tribulation that Jesus promised would come to the Church.

Speaking to His disciples in John 16:33 Jesus said, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation; but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." The Church will have tribulation in the world. It's important to notice that the "tribulation" faced by the Church originates from the world and comes from the world system controlled by Satan. Satan is behind all the attacks on the Church.

Paul tells us that we're wrestling not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Spirit forces are warring against the children of God, the source of our tribulation is definitely the world system governed by Satan.

The Great Tribulation that will come upon the earth originates from Heaven. God's wrath is poured out in judgment against the sinners during this Tribulation. When the sixth seal is opened in Revelation 6:12, those on the earth try to hide and they call for the rocks and the mountains to fall upon them and hide them from the wrath of the Lamb for the great day of His wrath has come, and they question, "Who shall be able to stand?" Revelation 11:18 declares, "Thy wrath is come."

In Revelation 14:10 the Great Tribulation is referred to as the indignation and wrath of God. When the seals are opened in Heaven corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The angels are given trumpets in Heaven, and as they blow the trumpets corresponding judgments come upon the earth. The vials from the living creatures are opened by the seven angels, and again corresponding judgments come upon the earth. All these judgments come from God and have their origin in Heaven. In Psalm 69:20-28 we have a prophecy concerning Jesus - it speaks of His disciples forsaking Him in the hour of need and of vinegar being given Him for His thirst. It then calls for God to pour out His indignation and His wrathful anger upon those who had persecuted the One whom God had smitten. Indignation is a word used in the Old Testament especially to describe the time of the great tribulation. Isaiah 26:19,20; Isaiah 34:1-8; Jeremiah 10:10; Daniel 8:19; Daniel 11:36; Nahum 1:5,6; Zephaniah 3:8. Note that in Isaiah 66:14 the hand of the Lord will be known toward His children but His indignation toward His enemies.

Paul tells us in Romans 2:6 that God will render to every man according to his deeds. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life: but to them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil. Hebrews 10:27 speaks of the fiery indignation that will devour His adversaries.

The tribulation experienced by the child of God comes from the Satan-governed world. The Tribulation that is coming on the sinful world will come from God.

Why is this Great Tribulation coming? The Scripture says that its purpose is threefold: (1) to try men who dwell upon the earth (Revelation 3:10); (2) that God might vent His wrath upon the wicked (Revelation 15:7), and (3) to destroy those who destroyed the earth (Revelation 11:18). Those who fall in one or all of these categories will be on the earth to experience the Tribulation period.

In the Old Testament the Lord spoke to Abraham and told him of the impending judgment on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. In response Abraham challenged the fairness of God. He asked, "Shall not the Lord of the earth be just? Would You destroy the righteous with the wicked? What if there are 50 righteous?" The Lord responded that if He found 50 righteous He would spare the city for the sake of the 50 righteous.

Notice the whole premise of Abraham's intercession with God was that it wouldn't be fair for God to judge the righteous with the wicked. If the judgment proceeds from God, then it surely wouldn't be fair for God to judge the righteous along with the wicked. Nowhere in the scripture when we find judgement proceeding directly from God do we find the righteous being judged with the wicked.

When the angels arrived in Sodom, they couldn't even find the ten righteous for whom Abraham had interceded. So, they delivered the one righteous man, Lot, out of the city. Not until he was delivered did the judgment of God come. They declared in Genesis 19:22 that they could not do anything until he was safely out of the way.

In Luke 17 when Jesus makes reference to Lot's escape, Jesus clearly points out that in the same hour Lot was brought out of the city, the judgment of God fell. In II Peter 2 the apostle points out that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed, "making them an example." However, God delivered that righteous man, Lot, who was vexed by the way people were living around him. Then Peter goes on to say, "For God knows how to deliver the righteous... and to reserve the ungodly for the day of judgment" (II Peter 2:9).

We're told in I Thessalonians 5 that God has not appointed us unto wrath. Also, in Romans 5:9 we're told that "being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him."

Any argument that might be developed to prove that the Church will go through the Great Tribulation and experience the wrath of God that is coming upon the earth must somehow explain the following point. When did God change His ways as to now punish the righteous with the wicked? It would be a change in God's nature to force His children to face the outpouring of His wrath. Yet, God said that he changes not (Malachi 3:6).

In deductive logic the most common form of reasoning is known as a syllogism. A syllogism consists of a major premise, a minor premise, and a conclusion. When one premise is negative and the other positive, only a negative conclusion can follow. For example, a major premise might be positive: all birds have wings. The minor premise is negative: dogs do not have wings. The conclusion must be negative: dogs are not birds.

Our major premise is negative: the Church is not appointed to wrath (Greek: orge). "We shall be saved from wrath" (Romans 5:9); "God has not appointed us to wrath" (I Thessalonians 5:9). The minor positive premise is: the Great Tribulation is a time of God's wrath (orge). "Hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of His wrath is come" (Revelation 6:16-17). The conclusion must be negative and plain: the Church will not experience the Great Tribulation. To argue any differently is to defy logic, and one may as well seek to prove that a dog is a bird. No further argument to prove that the Church will not go through the Great Tribulation is necessary, yet the burden of evidence is overwhelming. So, let us go on.

[joyful3434]

If there is not a rapture how will there be humans (24) elders with white robes bowing in front of the throne and laying down their crowns? Where does the scriptures state when the 24 elders received their bodies? Spirits couldn't wear a robe, have a crown on their head and bown down and to lay it down before the throne without a body. The tweleve desciples were still alive after Jesus went to heaven to prepare a place for people in Christ (mansions), so when did he raise their bodies to heaven? I don't want to dispute, or say someone is right or wrong, I am just trying to understand everyone's point of view. However, with the scriptures stated in the above threads, I believe we will be taken before the judgements of God. Jesus stated like in Noah's day. The believers which was only Noah's family was on the ark and God shut the door not Noah. When it started raining the non-believers was not able to get into the ark. I don't recall the Word of God stating that believers were pounding on the door to get, I believe the only believers was safe in the ark before God shut the door. The only time they might have believed is when it was too late and they saw the rain of God's judgement. I think that is what is going to happen when the rapture occurs and God's wrath that the non-believers will realize they missed the boat. The people that repented will be here for God's judgments. If they repented and passed away during the tribulation their spirit will go to heaven and they will receive their bodies when Christ returns with the church back to the earth (his second coming) and they will receive their bodies and live for the 1,000 years before satan is released for a short season. I have been a "christian" since I was a teenager but, I didn't study the bible like I have been the couple of years. Please, nobody be upset with my opinion. All I can do is keeping reading God's word, praying, and asking the Holy Spirit for knowledge. And ask others like at this site for more understanding. God Bless :-)

[Deep_MindQuest]

http://www.geocities.com/raptureapol...EnterTrib.html Is the Church going to go through the Tribulation?
First of all what is the Tribulation? It is a seven year (Dan. 9:27) period of time of God¹s wrath and judgment upon the earth. Some believe that the Tribulation is only 3 1/2 years because the Wrath of God is not for the full 7 years. Others feel that they will go through the Tribulation because Christ will Rapture the Church at the end of the Tribulation. Well let¹s take a look at what the Bible has to say. First what is the Wrath of God?

The Wrath of God is known as the Day of the Lord.

"Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: PANGS AND SORROWS shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with WRATH and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it." Isaiah 13:6-9

So here we see that the Day of the Lord is a time of wrath and filled with pains (pangs) and sorrows. So is it for the entire Tribulation period? Yes it is. Listen to what our Lord Jesus says.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows." Matthew 24:3-8

Note that these things are only the "beginning of sorrows" and as we have seen in Isaiah that the time of sorrows is the Day of the Lord. In Matthew 24 (above) we also see that this is the same order as the four horsemen of apocalypse which is the start of the Tribulation period (Day of the Lord). The white horse of the antichrist and the apostasy followed by the red horse of war and etc.

So what is seen here is that the Day of the Lord is the Tribulation and begins just as the antichrist comes to power. The Day of the Lord is the entire Tribulation period and is also called the time of Jacob's (Israel) Troubles. Now are we the Church going to go through the Tribulation? If you want to know, just answer the following questions.

Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Are you holding the truth in unrighteousness?

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

Is your heart hardened?

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

Do you deny the truth and obey unrighteousness?

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Are you still under the law?

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Do you work evil?

If your answer to all the above questions is no, then you are not going to go through the tribulation. Why is because we are now,
" ...justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Ro 5:9

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

When we accept Jesus Christ as our Saviour, we are saved from the wrath of the Tribulation to come.

1Th 1:10 ...wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Keep Looking Up!

Richard Vizzutti http://www.geocities.com/raptureapol...FromWrath.html Proof that we are
Saved from the Wrath to come
Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Ro 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God.

Ro 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath.

Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Ro 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Ro 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Ro 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Ro 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

What we "clearly" see here is that the wrath of God is ONLY for the unsaved. There is nothing in scripture to indicate that the wrath of God will be poured out upon Christians during the Tribulation. In fact we see the opposite. Ro 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes we are saved by the blood of Jesus from the wrath to come.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

This day of wrath is the Tribulation period of the book of Revelation.
Re 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
Re 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Now there are all kinds of debate as to where this wrath begins in Revelation. The fact is that it begins right at the start of the Tribulation in Re. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

So how do we know that the wrath begins at the start of the Tribulation? We know this for one single simple fact. First begins the judgment of the Seals as they are opened. Then out of the 7th Seal come the 7 Trumpet judgments. Then out of the 7th trumpet comes the 7 Vials.

We can clearly see here that there is no separation of judgments. In other words they are all different aspects and degrees of the one judgment known as the Tribulation.

An example of God's judgment is found in the story of the parting of the red sea. First you have the 10 plagues that progressively get worse, then God pours out His final judgment wrath in the form of of the Red Sea crashing down upon Pharaoh.

In Revelation we have the Seals and Trumpet judgments followed by the intense out pouring of the Vials which are incredibly intense.
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

So why isn't God just going to protect us through the Tribulation like he did with Israel and the Red Sea?
Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The fact is that since the out of the Seals come the Trumpets, and out of theTrumpets come the Bowls, this shows that they are ALL interconnected. This means they all are part of the Tribulation and therefore all are part of the Wrath of God. In scripture the Seals will kill off over a "forth of all the earth" with war and hunger and wild beasts. If that is not the Wrath of God upon the earth, then what is it? God's blessings?

So in closing I would like to say that we "wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

[Sean Osborne]

I agree. whenever God has poured out his wrath in the past like with the Flood and Sodom/Gomorrah he always removed the righteous before he acted. With the church made righteous through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ we are confident that we will be removed before the 70th week begins.

Yes, exactly. Exactly! To extend this truth with respect to:

A) the most recent report from Joel Rosenberg on the premier of the movie "Damascus" in Damascus, Syria

and

B) the fact that there are 1.97 million Christians* currently living in Syria

What might these things tell us with respect to the destruction of Damascus foretold in the 17th chapter of Isaiah?

How is the destruction of Damascus substantially different than the basic act of the destructions of Sodom or Gomorrah?

While we don't know when the future event of Isaiah 17 will occur, but it does appear to be looming on the near prophetic horizon.

So too the Harpazo which is even more of an imminent and important event. Might the Harpazo occur prior to the destruction of Damascus?



*(According to the 2009 Edition of the CIA World Factbook, 10% of Syria's population of 19.7 million are Christians. How many of that 1.97 million Christians are within the Bride of Christ is unknown.)

[mattfivefour]

I have heard some exegetes suggest that Isaiah 17 could occur prior to the Rapture. Your point however has made me think carefully about their opinions. After some cogitation I have come up with this one thing— Christians being killed in the destruction of Damascus does not necessarily equate with a judgment upon those Christians nor a failure of any of God's promises. Christians die in myriad ways—including violently—all the time. All that means is that they have left this vale of tears and are now safe and secure for all eternity in the very Presence of their Lord and Savior. So an exegesis that says Damascus could occur prior to the Rapture is not necessarily incorrect.

[Sean Osborne]

mattfivefour,

I find your cogitate to be very sound indeed. There is nothing on or of this earth that needs to occur for the Father to decide the time is right to send His Son to collect His Bride.

My own cogitate suggests that the literal fulfillment of Isaiah 17 would be a prophetic witnessing tool like none we have had presented to us since May 1948 or June 1967.

[DavidTR]

An awful lot of passionate deep theology bouncing around in here.

Have fun... :

But of course remember... :prayer

[Deep_MindQuest]

YouTube - David Reagan - The Rapture vs. the Second Coming (1/2) David Reagan - The Rapture vs. the Second Coming (1/2)


YouTube - David Reagan - The Rapture vs. the Second Coming (2/2) David Reagan - The Rapture vs. the Second Coming (2/2)

Dr. David Reagan (Lamb & Lion Ministries) and his guests, Dennis Pollock (Spirit of Grace Ministries) Don Perkins (According to Prophecy Ministries), explain the difference between the Rapture of the Church and the Second Coming Of Jesus Christ.

Lamb & Lion Ministries: Home - Bible Prophecy Ministry Proclaiming the Soon Return of Jesus Christ

To see my David Reagan Playlist, click here: YouTube - OmniChristianVids2's Channel