Is it Time for Americans to Take up Arms?

[Sean Osborne]

Is it Time for Americans to Take up Arms?

From Veterans Today, Wednesday, 11 April 2012



Are We Too Late to Stop the Police State?

By Gordon Duff, Senior Editor

What have things come down to when a mainstream democrat, reluctant “Obamacare” supporter tells you the guy he has voted for and, worst of all, may suggest voting for again, has lost his friggin’ mind?

When Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act, apologizing for the sections that ended our constitution, civil trials, all human rights in America, I suspected something was going on I didn’t see. How could Obama do this? How could he break so many promises?

I remember 1999 when the Project for a New American Century called for a “New Pearl Harbour” and only a few months after they get into office, an illegal act on a 5/4 Supreme Court vote in itself, the World Trade Center is blown up and the Pentagon attacked.

Anyone who still believes any of that is coincidence, please go elsewhere.

Then we get a new law, it allows the government to arrest demonstrators at locations it deems “government related?” Are we talking Dick Cheney’s heart transplant party here? With no hard definition, this is martial law. Even with one, it is blatantly unconstitutional, same as with the NDAA.

Then the Supreme Court decides to allow police to strip search anyone, anywhere for any reason. If this isn’t considered unconstitutional, remember the language, “unreasonable search,” I don’t know what is?

Then we have the DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, a name I find offensive, buying 750,000,000 rounds of .40 cal hollow point ammunition. Who for?

Why?

Even the army can’t use it, they are 9mm and hollow points are illegal, police don’t use them, the army can’t, but the DHS has enough to fight WW2 twice over and more. In fact, the ammunition being purchased in massive quantities is specifically designed, not to wound or even just to kill. It is designed to maim, to cause injuries that will eliminate any need for emergency treatment as the video above makes abundantly clear.

Nearly a billion rounds.

Why?

Sounds to me like someone is both afraid and planning something.

Sounds to me like our government is afraid of the people of the United States, the “electorate” they are meant to “serve” not “rule” and are planning to use all this force and these extremely illegal laws against our own country.

It seems to me like the government of the United States is, in itself, planning a rebellion against America. Passing laws that violate the constitution is a crime.

In many states, it is now illegal, not just to protest anything but to photograph police? What do they have to hide? If you don’t want to be photographed, it seems to me you are planning to commit a crime. If you don’t like evidence, then move to a police state where trials and evidence don’t count.

Are we there already?

There are three primary issues that have changed in America. I can’t say these, in particular, are the driving forces for the acceleration of events leading to increased police powers, government’s assault on human rights and the general feeling, the “fear of government” that millions of Americans of varied political and social beliefs are now expressing.
■The most important and I believe most easily proven is the failure of the controlled media to hold the public’s attention and to convince the public that the government should, not only be above the law, but that the government may well be systematically perpetrating terrorist activities as a rationale for increased controls. The “mainstream media,” now openly referred to as the “controlled media” has been pushing a message of fear, race hatred, class envy and wild conspiracy theories like the 9/11 hijackers and magic exploding buildings. When the public’s emotional response wore down and the frontal lobes kicked in, these methodologies became unmarketable.
■Induced civil war: This has been the major political tool of the last several decades, primarly based on white against black and “haves” against “have nots.” However, with the collapse of 2007-8, there are many more “have nots” than “haves.” Where African Americans or Hispanics were targeted, based on their higher levels of poverty, the current situation, general joblessness, homeless and even starvation now crosses lines never seen before in the United States. For 30 years, the percentage of those graduating from college has gone down while at the same time our standard of living, for the first time in our history, has gone down for decades in a row. There had never been a downturn, even during wartime.
■The third and most curious of the group is the rise of antisemitism. Not before Netanyahu was an Israeli government overtly hostile to the American people. Previously, Israel had aligned, during the Cold War, with the Soviets against America but did so without public pronouncements. The Jonathan Pollard spying incident and the attack on the USS Liberty are two isolated areas of evidence of such. Now, millions of Americans who had looked on Israel as a “victim” of terrorism now see Jews as financial criminals and the prime movers behind the Bush administration and their failed warlike policies. Rather than blaming the individuals responsible, there has been a general feeling expressed of distrust or worse, how widespread is unknown as the media itself is prohibited from reporting on such issues in general. That is quickly changing, which we hope will create a constructive dialog.

GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACIES

We have several areas of government conspiracies to consider. The traditional one has involved the FBI creating militia type movements themselves. They no longer have the patience to wait for them to form and then infiltrate them and push them toward acts of violence. They must believe the younger generation are too lazy.

The Hutaree incident in Michigan last months is one such incident where the FBI was caught by a Federal Judge. Charges, with minor exception, were dropped when it was shown that an FBI informant with a long history of mental instability and criminal behavior, at the behest of federal officials was, in actuality, the only member of a group of weapons enthusiasts with anti-government plans.

When the court learned the FBI had, in itself, fostered its own conspiracy and had, in itself, planned the murder of police officers, charges were thrown out. Had police officers been killed because an FBI informant had been directed to do so as part of a “sting operation,” would the officials responsible have been arrested and punished.

In a broader sense, is it not a felony for a law enforcement organization to plan the murder of fellow officers in order to effect arrests? In reading laws involving the crimes of “conspiracy to murder a law enforcement official,” there is nothing in the language that would prevent the immediate arrest of the FBI and US Attorney officials involved in this operation.

Operation Fast and Furious, wherein the Department of Homeland Security and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms division supplied weapons to known criminals that were used in the killing of law enforcement officers, falls under the same laws.

All involved are subject to arrest, detention and execution.

Something else is there. Are police being subjected to these efforts for a reason? Does Homeland Security need police to feel angry, paranoid, isolated and prone toward acts of senseless violence and revenge? We might also ask why police don’t ever seem to notice that every time they seem to be plotted against, the federal government’s hand is in it?

Forgiving lot, aren’t they?

The problem is, as with 9/11, is the murder by government officials of police officers going to be enough to justify whatever plans have been made, which are evidenced by the purchase of ammunition, the passage of unlawful laws and the enactment by government officials in a systematic manner of criminal conspiracies intended to lead to the murder of law enforcement officials?

On September 11, 2001, over 3000 Americans died in incidents that are no longer clear. What we have learned is that Building 7 at the World Trade Center was destroyed by explosives and that there were people in the building that were murdered as a result of these orders given by a Larry Silverman, a leasing agent, not a government official at all.

Additionally, two other buildings, the largest and strongest in the world theoretically “pancaked” after being hit by airplanes that, according to aviation experts, were incapable of such performance and were not in the area at the time.

Scientific evidence has brought a number of questions to mind.

An interview with a high ranking Army intelligence officer indicates that, after years of accepting the 9/11 Commission Reports, he is of the belief that the twin towers at the World Trade Center were destroyed by nuclear weapons of new and innovative design that give off no residual radiation. These weapons, called Deuterium/Tritium Fusion bombs are extremely small and no other device has been described that can be credited with vaporizing enough steel to build 3 Nimitz size aircraft carriers.

Steel beams weighing dozens of tons twisted into pretzels over 500 feet from the nearest heat source, something that didn’t happen at either Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Others question the Pentagon attack.

All question the invasion of Iraq, with most of the world declaring it a war crime. Similarly, the attack on Afghanistan is considered illegal by 69% of Americans according to a recent poll.

The American people are, by any stretch of the imagination, no longer willing to be a part of whatever plans have been made for them. Is this why the current election is so unique, with GOP candidates of incredible lack of qualifications, closets filled with skeletons, while key Democrats face criminal prosecution, Timothy Geithner of Treasury and Janet Napolitano of Homeland Security.

The entire Bush administration is under limited arrest, facing war crimes tribunals if taken into custody outside the United States.

We have received confirmations of reports that former British Prime Minister Tony Blair has been under a form of “house arrest” for years now.

CONCLUSION

The question at hand is “how is it going to be done?” Will a dirty bomb or actual nuclear weapon be detonated in the United States? Will Israeli groups, “rogue” or not, groups that stand accused by experts of complicity in 9/11 crimes, not just the World Trade Center but the George Washington Bridge attack and others, be used against the United States?

Are such groups representing the nation of Israel or working as private contractors for a secret society, the CIA or a terrorist group?

These concepts, 10 years ago outlandish, are on the tips of every tongue, from the White House and FBI to the Pentagon.

They just aren’t in the news. In truth, nobody knows the truth and suspicions can go everywhere or anywhere. Maybe this is the plan in itself.

And so it goes.

Or not.

Bible prophecy on the other-hand goes no where except directly to absolute and explicit fulfillment.

[WKUHilltopper]

Then we have the DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, a name I find offensive, buying 750,000,000 rounds of .40 cal hollow point ammunition.

Aren't "hollow points" used by an army/military a violation of the Geneva Convention?

[Meg]

What, I wonder, is the point in posting this mess?

[Robert]

From article:

Scientific evidence has brought a number of questions to mind.

An interview with a high ranking Army intelligence officer indicates that, after years of accepting the 9/11 Commission Reports, he is of the belief that the twin towers at the World Trade Center were destroyed by nuclear weapons of new and innovative design that give off no residual radiation. These weapons, called Deuterium/Tritium Fusion bombs are extremely small and no other device has been described that can be credited with vaporizing enough steel to build 3 Nimitz size aircraft carriers.

Steel beams weighing dozens of tons twisted into pretzels over 500 feet from the nearest heat source, something that didn’t happen at either Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I read this part and almost fell out of my chair; it is essentially a "truther" conspiracy theory that states 9/11 was an inside job.

I'm sorry, but this whole article is nothing but FUD, and I don't care who gets upset by me calling it that!

[FaithInChrist]

I for one want to be educated to the "truth". If I cannot find the truth on here, where am I going to find it? Give me all the info, let me weigh all the evidence and let me make my own conclusions. If I can't get "other" info here, then I am stuck with what the mainstream media feeds me, as are most of the guests that read this forum.

9/11 has never made sense, those buildings should have never fallen. I, for one, want to know all the information that helps reveal the truth of the biggest lie in American history. A lie that changed the course of our country and has led to violation after violation of the American citizen's constitutionally given rights.

It isn't FUD to be prepared. We need to consider that our country may not be the country you and I know now, before the return of Christ. Remember, there is no mention of the United States in Bible prophecy. Even with Obama's current attitude toward Israel, at this point and time, he would still have to do something if Israel came under attack. We all know that nobody steps in to help Israel.

The Bible says if we follow Christ the world will hate us, it says we will be persecuted. We have no guarantees that Christ will return before that begins to happen on the sacred ground of the U.S.A. It isn't FUD to be prepared to face what other Christians around the world are facing, we are no more precious than those brother's and sister's in Christ are. Do you think perhaps they live with a level of fear in their lives that we do not know?

Christ is coming soon, very soon, our government is preparing for something big, what? I do not know, but the chatter is getting louder and we do need to listen, we have no promise that our lives won't get difficult.

Any information we are given can be discerned through prayer.

Pray for Israel, pray for our enemy, pray for wisdom, pray for peace, pray for comfort, pray for strength, pray for endurance...He hears, he listens and he holds our soul in his hands.

[Joseph The Carpenter]

I watched those buildings being built and worked on high rise buildings in Manhattan. What made the towers different was that the metal frame (the outside walls) was where the building got its structure or support. That made for wide open floor space. Actually each building had a one acre footprint, that is a very big footprint. I think it is only by GODS grace that they did not collapse immediately. Fireproofing was asbestos sprayed onto the steel beams and they in the process of removing it on many floors.
So the fire made the floor beams sag and with the weight of one acre of concrete six inches thick, one floor broke loose and they all pancaked.
Pictures on TV in no way show the enormity of those buildings and the debris.
I have no doubt the fire from the plane brought the towers down.

[mattfivefour]

Yes, I have read a technical engineering analysis of the WTC tower collapse that was done in order to discover any lessons to be learned so as to aid in making new buildings safer. The analysis identified exactly what you say, bro. The flaw that allowed the pancaking was the very engineering theory underlying construction of the buildings. Once the intense flames caused the girders on the struck floors to soften and bow they were unable to support incredible weight of the concrete and the first floors fell. This brought down the floors above them and the increasing combined weight of them all along with the accelerating force of gravity brought down the entire structure ... a combined weight of approximately half a million tons per tower.

[anath]

Is it Time for Americans to Take up Arms?

From Veterans Today, Wednesday, 11 April 2012



Are We Too Late to Stop the Police State?

By Gordon Duff, Senior Editor

What have things come down to when a mainstream democrat, reluctant “Obamacare” supporter tells you the guy he has voted for and, worst of all, may suggest voting for again, has lost his friggin’ mind?

When Obama signed the National Defense Authorization Act, apologizing for the sections that ended our constitution, civil trials, all human rights in America, I suspected something was going on I didn’t see. How could Obama do this? How could he break so many promises?

I remember 1999 when the Project for a New American Century called for a “New Pearl Harbour” and only a few months after they get into office, an illegal act on a 5/4 Supreme Court vote in itself, the World Trade Center is blown up and the Pentagon attacked.

Anyone who still believes any of that is coincidence, please go elsewhere.

Then we get a new law, it allows the government to arrest demonstrators at locations it deems “government related?” Are we talking Dick Cheney’s heart transplant party here? With no hard definition, this is martial law. Even with one, it is blatantly unconstitutional, same as with the NDAA.

Then the Supreme Court decides to allow police to strip search anyone, anywhere for any reason. If this isn’t considered unconstitutional, remember the language, “unreasonable search,” I don’t know what is?

Then we have the DHS, the Department of Homeland Security, a name I find offensive, buying 750,000,000 rounds of .40 cal hollow point ammunition. Who for?

Why?

Even the army can’t use it, they are 9mm and hollow points are illegal, police don’t use them, the army can’t, but the DHS has enough to fight WW2 twice over and more. In fact, the ammunition being purchased in massive quantities is specifically designed, not to wound or even just to kill. It is designed to maim, to cause injuries that will eliminate any need for emergency treatment as the video above makes abundantly clear.

Nearly a billion rounds.

Why?

Sounds to me like someone is both afraid and planning something.

Sounds to me like our government is afraid of the people of the United States, the “electorate” they are meant to “serve” not “rule” and are planning to use all this force and these extremely illegal laws against our own country.

It seems to me like the government of the United States is, in itself, planning a rebellion against America. Passing laws that violate the constitution is a crime.

In many states, it is now illegal, not just to protest anything but to photograph police? What do they have to hide? If you don’t want to be photographed, it seems to me you are planning to commit a crime. If you don’t like evidence, then move to a police state where trials and evidence don’t count.

Are we there already?

There are three primary issues that have changed in America. I can’t say these, in particular, are the driving forces for the acceleration of events leading to increased police powers, government’s assault on human rights and the general feeling, the “fear of government” that millions of Americans of varied political and social beliefs are now expressing.
■The most important and I believe most easily proven is the failure of the controlled media to hold the public’s attention and to convince the public that the government should, not only be above the law, but that the government may well be systematically perpetrating terrorist activities as a rationale for increased controls. The “mainstream media,” now openly referred to as the “controlled media” has been pushing a message of fear, race hatred, class envy and wild conspiracy theories like the 9/11 hijackers and magic exploding buildings. When the public’s emotional response wore down and the frontal lobes kicked in, these methodologies became unmarketable.
■Induced civil war: This has been the major political tool of the last several decades, primarly based on white against black and “haves” against “have nots.” However, with the collapse of 2007-8, there are many more “have nots” than “haves.” Where African Americans or Hispanics were targeted, based on their higher levels of poverty, the current situation, general joblessness, homeless and even starvation now crosses lines never seen before in the United States. For 30 years, the percentage of those graduating from college has gone down while at the same time our standard of living, for the first time in our history, has gone down for decades in a row. There had never been a downturn, even during wartime.
■The third and most curious of the group is the rise of antisemitism. Not before Netanyahu was an Israeli government overtly hostile to the American people. Previously, Israel had aligned, during the Cold War, with the Soviets against America but did so without public pronouncements. The Jonathan Pollard spying incident and the attack on the USS Liberty are two isolated areas of evidence of such. Now, millions of Americans who had looked on Israel as a “victim” of terrorism now see Jews as financial criminals and the prime movers behind the Bush administration and their failed warlike policies. Rather than blaming the individuals responsible, there has been a general feeling expressed of distrust or worse, how widespread is unknown as the media itself is prohibited from reporting on such issues in general. That is quickly changing, which we hope will create a constructive dialog.

GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACIES

We have several areas of government conspiracies to consider. The traditional one has involved the FBI creating militia type movements themselves. They no longer have the patience to wait for them to form and then infiltrate them and push them toward acts of violence. They must believe the younger generation are too lazy.

The Hutaree incident in Michigan last months is one such incident where the FBI was caught by a Federal Judge. Charges, with minor exception, were dropped when it was shown that an FBI informant with a long history of mental instability and criminal behavior, at the behest of federal officials was, in actuality, the only member of a group of weapons enthusiasts with anti-government plans.

When the court learned the FBI had, in itself, fostered its own conspiracy and had, in itself, planned the murder of police officers, charges were thrown out. Had police officers been killed because an FBI informant had been directed to do so as part of a “sting operation,” would the officials responsible have been arrested and punished.

In a broader sense, is it not a felony for a law enforcement organization to plan the murder of fellow officers in order to effect arrests? In reading laws involving the crimes of “conspiracy to murder a law enforcement official,” there is nothing in the language that would prevent the immediate arrest of the FBI and US Attorney officials involved in this operation.

Operation Fast and Furious, wherein the Department of Homeland Security and the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms division supplied weapons to known criminals that were used in the killing of law enforcement officers, falls under the same laws.

All involved are subject to arrest, detention and execution.

Something else is there. Are police being subjected to these efforts for a reason? Does Homeland Security need police to feel angry, paranoid, isolated and prone toward acts of senseless violence and revenge? We might also ask why police don’t ever seem to notice that every time they seem to be plotted against, the federal government’s hand is in it?

Forgiving lot, aren’t they?

The problem is, as with 9/11, is the murder by government officials of police officers going to be enough to justify whatever plans have been made, which are evidenced by the purchase of ammunition, the passage of unlawful laws and the enactment by government officials in a systematic manner of criminal conspiracies intended to lead to the murder of law enforcement officials?

On September 11, 2001, over 3000 Americans died in incidents that are no longer clear. What we have learned is that Building 7 at the World Trade Center was destroyed by explosives and that there were people in the building that were murdered as a result of these orders given by a Larry Silverman, a leasing agent, not a government official at all.

Additionally, two other buildings, the largest and strongest in the world theoretically “pancaked” after being hit by airplanes that, according to aviation experts, were incapable of such performance and were not in the area at the time.

Scientific evidence has brought a number of questions to mind.

An interview with a high ranking Army intelligence officer indicates that, after years of accepting the 9/11 Commission Reports, he is of the belief that the twin towers at the World Trade Center were destroyed by nuclear weapons of new and innovative design that give off no residual radiation. These weapons, called Deuterium/Tritium Fusion bombs are extremely small and no other device has been described that can be credited with vaporizing enough steel to build 3 Nimitz size aircraft carriers.

Steel beams weighing dozens of tons twisted into pretzels over 500 feet from the nearest heat source, something that didn’t happen at either Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Others question the Pentagon attack.

All question the invasion of Iraq, with most of the world declaring it a war crime. Similarly, the attack on Afghanistan is considered illegal by 69% of Americans according to a recent poll.

The American people are, by any stretch of the imagination, no longer willing to be a part of whatever plans have been made for them. Is this why the current election is so unique, with GOP candidates of incredible lack of qualifications, closets filled with skeletons, while key Democrats face criminal prosecution, Timothy Geithner of Treasury and Janet Napolitano of Homeland Security.

The entire Bush administration is under limited arrest, facing war crimes tribunals if taken into custody outside the United States.

We have received confirmations of reports that former British Prime Minister Tony Blair has been under a form of “house arrest” for years now.

CONCLUSION

The question at hand is “how is it going to be done?” Will a dirty bomb or actual nuclear weapon be detonated in the United States? Will Israeli groups, “rogue” or not, groups that stand accused by experts of complicity in 9/11 crimes, not just the World Trade Center but the George Washington Bridge attack and others, be used against the United States?

Are such groups representing the nation of Israel or working as private contractors for a secret society, the CIA or a terrorist group?

These concepts, 10 years ago outlandish, are on the tips of every tongue, from the White House and FBI to the Pentagon.

They just aren’t in the news. In truth, nobody knows the truth and suspicions can go everywhere or anywhere. Maybe this is the plan in itself.

And so it goes.

*********************

I don't think we believers will see an organized insurrection. We're too divided and there's too much hate toward each other.

[WKUHilltopper]

This is a company's press release bragging on its recent order to sell DHS bullet proof booths---maybe they're going to use these as deer stands or turkey blinds.


Shelters Direct Builds Bullet Resistant Booths for Homeland Security
Shelters Direct Builds Bullet Resistant Booths for Homeland Security, Shelters Dire


Honestly, even though the commentary points out 9-11, I really not sure about the "conspiracy side" of it. Maybe I just don't want to believe. However, building 7 coming down is particularly bothersome. One thing that bothers me about this building is when the BBC reported its collapse when it was in the background, standing, while they were reporting it. Plus the building wasn't hit by planes. I dunno.

[Forgiven]

This is a company's press release bragging on its recent order to sell DHS bullet proof booths---maybe they're going to use these as deer stands or turkey blinds.

[Ducati]

I got my KJV .66 , put in the clip , I got my hand on the trigger, thats all we need.

[FaithInChrist]

That report doesn't take into account how the buildings were able to fall straight down, not toppling to one side, not hesitating as they "collapse" on each floor, or hanging up, even for a second or two, on floors that have different floor plans etc. Instead they look like a free falling building, from the beginning until you cannot see the bottom anymore because of all the dust. Just like you see during a planned implosion. Now the chances of one building burning in the dead center and the supports weakening in the dead center and the fall starting in the dead center is next to impossible for even one building, but when you see that happening identically to all three buildings the chances would probably be higher for all of us here on RF to win the lotto. Then you add in the attack on the flight that crashed in Pennsyvania and at the Pentagon not adding up and it's really hard to trust the government's reports.

My husband and I have discussed this many times over the years. He thinks that somebody (the government, private sector??) might have taken advantage of a planned attack to fulfill their own agenda, or even handed the plan over to Al Quaida themselves.

It's speculation, but there is a lot of mystery behind this. The thing that made me start to question what happened had nothing to do with the "evidence" of the attacks initially, but to do with the fact we citizen's of the U.S started freely giving our rights away in the name of "homeland security". I couldn't believe the laws that were being passed. I found that very frightening.

I do understand that there is no evidence to say the government or wall street was involved, but there are so many unanswered questions out there and the engineering doesn't explain it.

[GlennO]

From post #1

Are We Too Late to Stop the Police State?

YES!


The rest is drivel........

[SonSeeker]

I watched those buildings being built and worked on high rise buildings in Manhattan. What made the towers different was that the metal frame (the outside walls) was where the building got its structure or support. That made for wide open floor space. Actually each building had a one acre footprint, that is a very big footprint. I think it is only by GODS grace that they did not collapse immediately. Fireproofing was asbestos sprayed onto the steel beams and they in the process of removing it on many floors.
So the fire made the floor beams sag and with the weight of one acre of concrete six inches thick, one floor broke loose and they all pancaked.
Pictures on TV in no way show the enormity of those buildings and the debris.
I have no doubt the fire from the plane brought the towers down.

With all due respect, Joseph The Carpenter, there are a couple of points you make that confuse me.

I'm not an engineer or an architect, so can you explain what is meant by a "footprint" in building construction? An acre is approximately 208 feet X 208 feet. How does this relate to the total area of one floor of the building?

You say the structural support was provided by the outside walls. Then why did they collapse when the beams and concrete floors sagged and fell? The outside walls were strong enough to support the entire building, so why, when the interior walls and floors fell, didn't the outside walls remain standing?

I have visited NYC a number of times, both before and after 9/11, and yes, they were incredibly enormous. But when visiting Ground Zero, I was struck by the 'cross' that remained standing when the rest of the Tower was crashing down. For those who don't know, the cross was a column with 2 short beams forming a near perfect cross. I pray it was not torn down to make way for the replacement building.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems strange these Towers fell perfectly straight down into their own footprint, as FaithInChrist posted. And I agree with her that these buildings fell exactly like a planned implosion. There's more to this than meets the eye.

[mikhen7]

With all due respect, Joseph The Carpenter, there are a couple of points you make that confuse me.

I'm not an engineer or an architect, so can you explain what is meant by a "footprint" in building construction? An acre is approximately 208 feet X 208 feet. How does this relate to the total area of one floor of the building?

You say the structural support was provided by the outside walls. Then why did they collapse when the beams and concrete floors sagged and fell? The outside walls were strong enough to support the entire building, so why, when the interior walls and floors fell, didn't the outside walls remain standing?

I have visited NYC a number of times, both before and after 9/11, and yes, they were incredibly enormous. But when visiting Ground Zero, I was struck by the 'cross' that remained standing when the rest of the Tower was crashing down. For those who don't know, the cross was a column with 2 short beams forming a near perfect cross. I pray it was not torn down to make way for the replacement building.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems strange these Towers fell perfectly straight down into their own footprint, as FaithInChrist posted. And I agree with her that these buildings fell exactly like a planned implosion. There's more to this than meets the eye.

When I saw what happened it was pretty clear. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, there were no center of the rooms supporting beams. Consider a building of stacked "H's.

H
H
H
H
Attachment 1002

Physics will tell you the center of the horizontal beam is the weakest point and where the sag would occur. See the image. The center sag would pull walls inward and straight down.

That is how I see it, just like a whirlpool.

[Joseph The Carpenter]

With all due respect, Joseph The Carpenter, there are a couple of points you make that confuse me.

I'm not an engineer or an architect, so can you explain what is meant by a "footprint" in building construction? An acre is approximately 208 feet X 208 feet. How does this relate to the total area of one floor of the building?

You say the structural support was provided by the outside walls. Then why did they collapse when the beams and concrete floors sagged and fell? The outside walls were strong enough to support the entire building, so why, when the interior walls and floors fell, didn't the outside walls remain standing?

I have visited NYC a number of times, both before and after 9/11, and yes, they were incredibly enormous. But when visiting Ground Zero, I was struck by the 'cross' that remained standing when the rest of the Tower was crashing down. For those who don't know, the cross was a column with 2 short beams forming a near perfect cross. I pray it was not torn down to make way for the replacement building.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it seems strange these Towers fell perfectly straight down into their own footprint, as FaithInChrist posted. And I agree with her that these buildings fell exactly like a planned implosion. There's more to this than meets the eye.

Yes one floor was 208 x208 feet.
The collapse started on the floor of the impact, I think 82, so there was thirty floors of weight above and the walls were designed to hold one floor.
The towers were built in the sixties and they did all they could to keep the cost down. The stairways were covered in two inches of sheet rock, the new tower stairway has walls of poured concrete with re-bar.
If you were on the top floors and it was windy the building would move a couple of feet back and forth.
The Cross has been moved and I have no expatiation why it was not turned to dust, it could have been part of the lobby but I am not sure.

Building seven burned because the city had their emergency response headquarters there. Emergency generators with a large amount of diesel fuel.

Brothers and Sisters, President Bush, the CIA, the "JEWS" had nothing to do with this attack. But I do think AL-qaeda had help from a government, Iran,Iraq,North Korea,

[SonSeeker]

Thanks for your response, JTC. and mikhen7.
I'm in agreement as to the building design(and its flaws), but it's the physics that I'm questioning.

Mike's stacked H's look like a pretty good example, but maybe I'm exceptionally dense today. The lower H's are still holding all the weight of the floors above them, right? Before the plane hit the 82nd floor, the walls were holding up not just the weight of one floor, they were holding the weight of all the floors above them too. What else is holding them up there? The exterior walls, or columns, had to be seriously strong considering the weight they were holding. At the point where one floor is connected to the exterior wall, it would have been designed to hold just one floor. When the weight came crashing down, the weak link should be the point where the girders are attached to the columns, the point where the floors are attached to the walls, right?

Imagine the stack of H's in Mike's example are concrete blocks, and the karate expert is attempting to break through them. It isn't the strength of his arm that breaks the blocks, it's the speed of his hand. The concrete blocks all come tumbling down but the entire block is cast as a single unit with equal strength throughout. This should not have been the case with the Towers. The exterior walls should have been able to slow this free fall somewhat, shouldn't they?

As FaithInChrist pointed out, there was no delay when the floors came crashing down, as though the walls were holding nothing. They fell very quickly, as if in free fall.

In my first post I said I wasn't an engineer or an architect; I'm not a physicist either. I need to go take a couple of Advil now.

[WKUHilltopper]

I've read this commentary several times--and maybe I'm just thick--but I'm not sure where the commentary is trying to go with the "points". Maybe he's implying the country will just lay down to anything but it implies, with the title of the commentary, we should be ready to "take up arms" or should be doing it now.

I would agree what is happening to our "Republic" (if you can even call it this anymore) is shocking and disgusting--especially with the so-called legislation of the last several years. I've wondered if those who have gone before us would be so complacent to tolerate this blatant attack on our Constitution, our Bill of Rights. I would even go as far as calling some of these events as "in your face" treasonous. But the author's "conclusion" is a little light--maybe intentionally so.

I've never actually heard of "Veteran's Times" before. Is it a source that's been "around for awhile"? Typically credible? I don't have a clue.

[Joseph The Carpenter]

Thanks for your response, JTC. and mikhen7.
I'm in agreement as to the building design(and its flaws), but it's the physics that I'm questioning.

Mike's stacked H's look like a pretty good example, but maybe I'm exceptionally dense today. The lower H's are still holding all the weight of the floors above them, right? Before the plane hit the 82nd floor, the walls were holding up not just the weight of one floor, they were holding the weight of all the floors above them too. What else is holding them up there? The exterior walls, or columns, had to be seriously strong considering the weight they were holding. At the point where one floor is connected to the exterior wall, it would have been designed to hold just one floor. When the weight came crashing down, the weak link should be the point where the girders are attached to the columns, the point where the floors are attached to the walls, right?

Imagine the stack of H's in Mike's example are concrete blocks, and the karate expert is attempting to break through them. It isn't the strength of his arm that breaks the blocks, it's the speed of his hand. The concrete blocks all come tumbling down but the entire block is cast as a single unit with equal strength throughout. This should not have been the case with the Towers. The exterior walls should have been able to slow this free fall somewhat, shouldn't they?

As FaithInChrist pointed out, there was no delay when the floors came crashing down, as though the walls were holding nothing. They fell very quickly, as if in free fall.

In my first post I said I wasn't an engineer or an architect; I'm not a physicist either. I need to go take a couple of Advil now.

Sorry for the hijack but I just wanted to answer the question.


Have you ever noticed when the karate expert stacks boards he has a space in between each board and does not lay them directly on top of each other.
I also recall a few parking garages that were four or five floors that collapsed in a similar way, also earthquakes in third world countries (where building codes are lax) have caused pancaking.

[Obie]

....pssst? someone tell me what FUD means.