Hi.

[Jared Hanley]

My name is Jared Hanley. I am 26 (almost 27) years old and I live in East Tennessee.

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God). I have journeyed through several denominations and movements over the past eleven years that I have been a Christian. I started out as a pre-trib pre-millennialist and I have recently come back to that. I am also a trinitarian Pentecostal again. I know that most of the people here are probably some form of Baptist. Let me say right up front that I am not a typical Pentecostal. I am a monergist like many of the early Dispensationalists. If it is against the policy of the board to discuss Pentecostalism I will try to refrain from that.

It is refreshing to find a board like this that is centered around a Dispensational understanding of the end-times. Part of what convinced me to come back to Premillennial Pretribulational Dispensationalism was a series of lectures I was listening to recently from a Dallas Theological Seminary professor named Michael J. Svigel. I thought he set forth some fairly compelling arguments for that particular view.

Anyway, if you want to know more about me, you can just ask.

It's great to be here.

[mattfivefour]

Glad to have you on board, Jared. I pray you are blessed by the fellowship here. Yes, there are a lot of Southern (and northern ) Baptists here. But there are many other denominations represented on RF ... including Pentecostals (I being one, although I am pentecostal by experience and not by denomination.) If you have any questions about what is acceptable or not here, feel free to PM me or any other member of the admin and mod teams.

Again, welcome to RF!

[Meg]

Welcome to RF, Jared. I hope this forum ministry blesses you.

[SonSeeker]

Welcome Jared, from one of those northern Baptists Matt mentioned.

[livin_in_the_Son]

Jared! Welome to RF! I'm a recovering Catholic not mentioned! I hope this forum is a blessing to you as it is to me!

[ftwspursfan]

Hey Jared! Welcome to RF. I'm a Southern Baptist but I grew up in the Nazarene and AoG church. Glad you are here to fellowship with us!

[IamPJ]

Hello Jared and welcome to the forum. I grew up Church of Christ, but now attend a non-denominational church. Hope you enjoy the forum!

[anath]

Welcome to RF Jared!

[FaithInChrist]

Welcome to RF. My name is Dianne and I was raised Pentacostal until I turned 14, I spent many years away from the church and last year I had an experience that saved my life and turned my life around.

I go to an AG church, it is nothing like the AG church of my childhood, it feels more like a Baptist church where a few people speak in tongues.

[SteveJM]

Welcome to Rapture Forums, Jared. You could say that I'm a Freewillbapticostal. Nice to meet you, and I look forward to your posts.

[JoelH]

Hi Jared,

Welcome to the forum. I've never heard before today about any former dispensationalists who moved to "Young, Restless, Reformed" doctrinally turning full circle in theology and revert to being a dispensationalist. Your example is an encouragement to me, who do face YRRs each and every day in church circles.

Will look forward to interacting with you on this issue as the thread topic fits.


Joel

[Hannah]

Nice of you to introduce yourself Jared.

[Chris]

My name is Jared Hanley. I am 26 (almost 27) years old and I live in East Tennessee.

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God). I have journeyed through several denominations and movements over the past eleven years that I have been a Christian. I started out as a pre-trib pre-millennialist and I have recently come back to that. I am also a trinitarian Pentecostal again. I know that most of the people here are probably some form of Baptist. Let me say right up front that I am not a typical Pentecostal. I am a monergist like many of the early Dispensationalists. If it is against the policy of the board to discuss Pentecostalism I will try to refrain from that.

It is refreshing to find a board like this that is centered around a Dispensational understanding of the end-times. Part of what convinced me to come back to Premillennial Pretribulational Dispensationalism was a series of lectures I was listening to recently from a Dallas Theological Seminary professor named Michael J. Svigel. I thought he set forth some fairly compelling arguments for that particular view.

Anyway, if you want to know more about me, you can just ask.

It's great to be here.

Hi Jared,
You might like Clarence Larkin's book "Dispensational Truth" that can be read on our website. Here's the link:

Bible Prophecy Charts

[BuzzardHut]

My name is Jared Hanley. I am 26 (almost 27) years old and I live in East Tennessee.

I was raised Pentecostal (Assemblies of God). I have journeyed through several denominations and movements over the past eleven years that I have been a Christian. I started out as a pre-trib pre-millennialist and I have recently come back to that. I am also a trinitarian Pentecostal again. I know that most of the people here are probably some form of Baptist. Let me say right up front that I am not a typical Pentecostal. I am a monergist like many of the early Dispensationalists. If it is against the policy of the board to discuss Pentecostalism I will try to refrain from that.

It is refreshing to find a board like this that is centered around a Dispensational understanding of the end-times. Part of what convinced me to come back to Premillennial Pretribulational Dispensationalism was a series of lectures I was listening to recently from a Dallas Theological Seminary professor named Michael J. Svigel. I thought he set forth some fairly compelling arguments for that particular view.

Anyway, if you want to know more about me, you can just ask.

It's great to be here.

Hi Jared, we find many dispensationalists are closet monergists but feel the filling of the Holy Spirit is more important than any flower petal pushing. Welcome

[Jared Hanley]

Hi Jared,

Welcome to the forum. I've never heard before today about any former dispensationalists who moved to "Young, Restless, Reformed" doctrinally turning full circle in theology and revert to being a dispensationalist. Your example is an encouragement to me, who do face YRRs each and every day in church circles.

Will look forward to interacting with you on this issue as the thread topic fits.


Joel

There are some Dispensationalists in Mark Driscoll's Acts29 Network although I'm not sure how many. Driscoll himself was mentored by Dispensationalists but I'm not sure whether he is still a Dispensationalist or not. The most visible Monergistic Dispensationalist is probably John MacArthur and some younger people like me are somewhat put off by him because of his lack of grace at times (or perceived lack of grace). I have come to like MacArthur over the years and ordered the ESV MacArthur Study Bible a few days ago but he didn't have much to do with me coming back to a more Dispensationalist point of view.

For me, there are exegetical reasons.

Also, I can't think of too many people who have been saved by having Postmillennialism, Amillennialism, or Classical Premillennialism preached to them. But, there are plenty of people that I have seen who got right with God because of hearing the Pre-Trib rapture preached.

I am more inclined to listen to Dispensationalists like Tony Evans, Beth Moore, Francis Chan, and Andy Stanley than MacArthur; though as I said I have grown to like him over the years.

[Jared Hanley]

Hi Jared, we find many dispensationalists are closet monergists but feel the filling of the Holy Spirit is more important than any flower petal pushing. Welcome

I understand. I have been working over the past few years on trying to not push monergism too much. I think most evangelical preachers no matter their soteriology tend to say some monergistic-sounding things from time to time. It's hard to get away from if you're reading the Bible. Charles Spurgeon talked about this. He said that you couldn't tell the difference when Christians are on their knees before God. You can have a Calvinist and an Arminian, but they pray the same way. The way Spurgeon said it is that people try to mask the way they talk but sometimes the brogue that they were raised with comes through. So it is with the Christian. Who we really are will shine through somehow someway.

[mattfivefour]

How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven (He's now there with the Father) “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign.

Scripture says no such thing about Jesus. It says that the Heavens must receive Him until that time. This was to counter the Jewish idea that Messiah had to rule on earth. Paul is saying no, not until the time of restoration. But Jesus is in no way a prisoner in Heaven; as God He is free to go wherever He wishes! Nothing says that He "must" stay in Heaven. Besides, the Rapture does not require Him coming to earth, anyway. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says that we meet Him in the clouds, not on the earth.

("The Rapture Question," by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn't dare to even list, in its scripture index, the too-hot-to-handle Acts 3:21!) Since Jesus can’t even leave heaven before the tribulation ends (Acts 2:34,35 echo this), the rapture therefore can't take place before the end of the trib! (The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby - the so-called "father of dispensationalism" - to list in the scripture index in his "Letters"!)

The writer has misinterpreted Acts 2:34-35 in the same way he misinterpreted Acts 3:21—by reading into it what is not there. Seems this person has a problem with eisegesis. The rest of his comments are nonsense and made only for rhetorical effect.

Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs!

Again, more poor exegesis of scripture. Paul's comments about the "Day of the Lord" have nothing to do with the timing of the Rapture. They are made in the context of people thinking that those who had died while the body of believers awaited the return of Christ had lost out. Paul tells them that "No, the dead will be raised." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 is a new thought that flows out of the former. Since he has just dealt with people who have died without seeing the calling up of the Lord, Paul now says that regarding the living all of them have received all of the information they need so that, unlike the world, they will be prepared for Christ's coming (this by the fact they are saved) and it does not matter whether they are dead or alive at that time. The world, however, is not aware that the Lord will come unexpectedly and will be caught just like an unprepared homeowner is by a thief coming in the night. Thus, he says, in light of the fact that the people of God have the knowledge that when Christ does appear it will be without warning, they should persevere in the faith and live as befitting saints.

The "rest" for "all them that believe" is tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who'd be left alive to serve the Antichrist?)

Again, more misinterpretation. Read the passage in question. It is stating that the patience and faith of the saints in tribulation will be rewarded. Indeed the saints will be resting with Paul and the saints (from all other Scripture this refers to Heaven) at the time when Jesus shall return to earth and with flaming fire take vengeance both on those who have rejected the gospel and on those who have persecuted the saints. This has nothing to do with the Rapture timing.

Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the posttrib end of “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which is Israel's posttrib resurrection!)

Paul does no such thing in 1 Corinthians 15:52-54. He is stating, just as he did in 1 Thessalonians 4:13, that Chiristians do not sorrow as the world does because, due to the assurance of the Resurrection, death has lost it sting! The grave has no victory. Because jesus has taken the keys to the piut and to death. There is no more bitter mourning because we know that all who die in Christ are with Him now and will be given their eternal, incorruptible bodies at the time of the Rapture. So the references to Death having no sting has nothing to sdo with the end of death but to the end of the fear of death. In Christ there is no real death and no judgment to be feared.

The Isaiah 25:8 verse is used by Paul to indicate that the resurrection of Jesus Christ has fulfilled that prophecy. It has nothing to do with the post-Trib time. If you wanted to claim that, then you would have to call it the post-Millennial time, because death still exists till then. The writer fails to understand that prophecy is often the compression of different events that take place over time but by the prophet are seen all at once. He also confuses spiritual truths with physical truths.

Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this "rapture" was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!).

This all is just bunkum. It has repeatedly been shown from history that these claims are patently false. In fact they have been so thoroughly discredited that for the author to persist in stating them shows not only intellectual dishonesty, but grave moral dishonesty as well. One has to wonder at his motive.

Other Google articles on the 182-year-old pretrib rapture view include "Pretrib Rapture Politics," "Pretrib Rapture Scholar Wannabes," “Famous Rapture Watchers,” "Pretrib Rapture Diehards," “X-Raying Margaret,” "Edward Irving is Unnerving," “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” "Walvoord Melts Ice," “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "Pretrib Rapture Secrecy," “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" – all by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (see Armageddon Books).

Aha! And here we have the answer to motive. Dave MacPherson is more interested in selling his books than in the truth of the Word of God. He is a proven liar. And a demonstrable perverter of Scripture.

Enough said. I have wasted too much time on his ridiculous claims.